Obama vs. Cheney on Gitmo: Who won the terror debate today?

It was like watching a prize fight on television. Only the stakes were a little bigger than your average purse.

First the young gladiator, a gifted orator, a new leader, defended his position.

Then the old warhorse, not known for wowing the crowd, attacked.

When President Obama spoke, he used the majesty of power to convey authority. Speaking in front of the marble and limestone shrine that announces the precious documents of America's birth at the National Archives,  he declared that Guantanamo Bay prison "likely created more terrorists around the world than it ever detained."

We've added the complete text of former Vice President Dick Cheney's speech over here.

With the Declaration of Independence on his right and the Bill of Rights to his left, the president of the United States talked about how those documents were abandoned under the Bush administration, whose harsh interrogation techniques and detention-without-trial of terrorist suspects at Guantanamo Bay became a reviled international symbol of torture.

He talked about torture as "an albatross around our efforts to combat terrorism in the future" and called the effort to keep Americans safe "the roughest single issue we will face."

Alluding to a Republican outcry about the danger of housing the Gitmo detainees in federal prisons, he promised not to release "anyone who endangers our national security" and said his administration would try to try those detainees who violated U.S. laws in federal court.

"Our courts and juries are tough enough to convict terrorists," he said.

Then former Vice President Dick Cheney spoke, replacing Obama's sobered outline of the complexities with fire and brimstone. Speaking at the conservative think tank, the American Enterprise Institute,Cheney said:  "To call this a program of torture is to libel the dedicated professionals who saved American lives, and to cast terrorists and murderers as innocent victims."

Even worse, said the man known in some circles as Darth Vader, to attack the Bush administration's policies amounts to "recklessness cloaked in righteousness, and it would make the American people less safe."

He chided the young Obama for searching "for some kind of middle ground in policies addressing terrorism," adding, "In the fight against terrorism, there is no middle ground, and half measures keep you half exposed."

Michigan Republican Rep. Peter Hoekstra was one of 200 people gathered at the Archives for Obama's remarks. Asked afterward for his reaction, the top Republican on the Intelligence Committee said, "He gives a good speech."

What do you think?

-- Johanna Neuman

Photo credit: Getty Images

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Comments

[bryan]

Cheney, you had your chance when you were VP and you were awful. Stop talking. No one likes you, trusts you, believes you, or wants to be around you. You make Americans look awful.

[Maurice Adcock]

President Obama is done in my eyes. If people cant see the narcissist in him and msnbc now they probably never will. When everyone votes against the funding 90-6, and you have a news group contesting they do not know understand the democrats who voted against it. Solely cause they hammered the Bush administration for not having a plan. He did not have a plan he did not get the votes. Instead of laying out a plan he claimed its not his fault its Bushes fault for opening gitmo. Priceless

[ruthie baker]

I am just a simple lady from eastern kentucky who's husband is a coal miner and he works very hard, we pay our taxes and I just don't think that it is right that the goverment is taking our hard earned dollars and passing it out like candy! Ruthie Baker

[Peter David DiSalvo Jr.]

History will prove just how great the Bush administration has proved ture. Against the wave of weakness,socialism and anti-american Obama has givien us. Obama is the opium of the masses!

[JGregg]

You guys are doing a great job with this blog. This is (honestly, no hyperbole meant) the best the LA Times has ever done at attempting to play it down the middle. As a lifelong reader of the Times (Sports / Calendar sections are the best in the country), I am well aware of the ridiculously liberal bias. Your work, Johanna and Andrew, have helped me think more positively about the LAT.

Keep up the great work. Oh, yeah. If you want to know who's winning this PR battle between Cheney and Obama. Just ask yourself: where is Joe Biden? Why is a sitting President battling a former VP?

[dom youngross]

Given that the democrat-controlled Senate voted 90-6 to withhold funding to close the Gitmo detention facility, good judgment, prudence, and an abundance of caution won.

For now.

I'm going to Google maximum security federal prisons to see where they are located.

Maybe given California's budget problems, you guys can swing a deal with the feds: $25,000,000 for each Gitmo detainee you take in. $5-6 billion to make an inconvenient problem go away? Obama will deliver the money himself..

[Christina]

Cheney is an idiot. Here is claiming libel by the sitting POTUS for critiquing the GWB administration while at the same time telling the whole world that Pres. Obama is reckless and endangering us by choosing to close Guantanamo. Ummm ... can we say hypocrite? I am so glad the President is standing up to Darth Cheney. He is nothing more than an old, hysterical, delusional man without a job.

[Julian Sandoval]

What debat? Cheney is defending his own "special" interest's. Whats changed on his behalf? He is richer today than he ever could have imagined along with the bushes which where paid and continue paying forth by hardworking U.S. Taxpayers (lives) and incomes oh, and the so called "republican voters". Pleeeaaassseeee. Can you say "Terrorist".

[nyongesa]

The delusion that there was a debate, between the President who went before the nation to articulate to the country and the world, the policy framework for dealing with detainee's, and, the revisionist bleating rants of a paranoid former government official, is half the problem.

Dick Cheney, the driving force behind wars and actions that have vastly expanded the number of terrorists out there, burned trillions of dollars in war spending on the wrong enemy, created policies that resulted in extrodinary profits for his friends and business associates, is suddenly a credible voice in criticizing The actual president of America's policy proposals.

No vice president in history has been such a failure, and yet been so vociferous about criticizing those dealing with disastrous consequences of his actions. Paranoia melded with deeply ingrained hubris, deserves no deference from the media or public, only contempt.

[Dave Atkins]

The whole Bush-Cheney approach to policy about torture, warmaking or any foreign policy issue of any stripe was to make any decision understandable to a "c" student, while frieghtening folks into wanting accepting its being done.

"Axis of Evil," for example, lead to a train of associations; "axis:" name of Germany's allies in WWII and "Evil," bad.

Of course the only Vice President of the U.S. that was a heartbeat away from losing the powers of the Presidency attacks nuance in addressing foreign issues. Nuance leads to understanding and understanding to long-term solutions. It makes it harder to sell hatred and thus arms.

[aaron]

Hey Cheney this country has sucessfully incarcerated criminals like ted bundy, charles manson, richard rodriguez. and done it without torture. Surely we could lock up terrorist....chaney go bac to your RAT hole, fade away and count all the $ that was stolen.

[Gorefan]

Dick Cheney has been wrong on virtually very prediction he has made concern terrorism. He was wrong about WMD's, Iraqi involvment in 9/11, the determination of the Iraqi insurgency, the defeat of the Taliban in Afganistan, ect. With that track record it's hard to understand how anyone can take anything he has to say seriously.

[David]

Dick Cheney I believe won by a wide margin. In not only correctness, but in words of wisdom.
Thanks,

[Steve Havens]

I feel Chaney and Bush did the best possible defense of our county, these attacks were not done by a foreign nation or goverment, but a gang of terroriest, trying to hit and run. Why would the rule of war appliy to them,
I lost a relative in 911. What country is standing as accountable for the attack of 911, none, but the terrorist-no country killers. Let not forget the 3000 + people who died in the attack. What ever a great president and speaker Pres. Obama is, he needs to get out of the theory books and apply practical application and hold a country accountable for 911, and since no country is accountable ,
then the people are killers not political prisioners, not US citizens , but foreigh terrorist.

Obama you need to get a better understanding of how american feel. I voted for you, but I am now questioning wheather I voted correct.

regards,
steve havens
Mlorgan Hill Ca.

[indi]

Close Gitmo as Obama and the Democrats wants.
Send the prisoners to remote locations like Alaska, or maybe Hawaii, the farther the better. Nobody wants them in their backyard.
Oh, except ACLU. Perhaps they can build hotels in their backyard to house these people if it so wanted to get them out. They should contribute to the solution and not just talk and complaint.

[michael amitin]

I thought Dick Cheney was beaten out of Dodge with a pitchfork..and supposed to pack his 29% approval ratings with his litany of lies and deceits and crawl back under the Wyoming rock from whence he sprang..?

[NB]

How come people cannot see that torture is wrong, even when executed on murderers?

What is wrong with you people? When will the nation come to its senses and commence criminal investigations?

[Rob McMillin]

I think Cheney should be prosecuted.

[Sally]

Cheny had his turn in office for eight years, and he rarely appeared in public. Now he can't seem to shut up. It's time for him to go away and let Obama have his turn to lead the country in the direction the public voted for.

[gerrrg]

Cheney has constantly used fear to drive policy behind the screen; nothing has changed now that he has gone in front of the screen.

His logic is inherently flawed. For his argument on torture to pass muster, one has to assume that the intelligence community's abilities to keep tabs on the bad folk is not good. He also has to assume that the information gotten out of torture would not have been extracted through other means. A truth based on assumptions is no truth at all.

On closing Guantanamo, again Cheney relies on fear and poor logic. There is an assumption that Guantanamo is legal; the Supreme Court has already ruled that the "detainees" have right to due process. The lack of due process made Guantanamo pertinent. With due process, Guantanamo is made obsolete. Secondly, other 9/11 terrorists and Islamic terrorists have long been held in Federal prisons. The inference is that Federal prisons do not have the personnel that are trained to keep dangerous people from escaping, which is obviously silly.

Finally, once again Cheney returned to the rhetoric of absolutes, making clear that once again you cannot be smart enough to find a middle ground, but instead either you're with us or against us. Cheney is the worst failure throughout this experiment in democracy, where "freedom" is political rhetoric.

[oldswede]

What debate? Only in the desperate-for-a-story imagination of the corporate media was there a debate.
The President of the United States gave a major speech in his impressively articulate way.
The formerly seldom-seen former VP grumbled some of his deceitful talking points, attempting to revise reality. Big fail.
It was not a debate. There was only temporal proximity.
oldswede

[Uncle Leo]

lmao

Cheney made Obushma look like the neophyte manboy that he is.

Obama spoke in general slogans, platitudes and campaignisms.

Cheney was clear, concise, articulate.

No contest, Cheney slapped the manboy back to the Stone Age.

[hpg]

"The whole Bush-Cheney approach to policy about torture, warmaking or any foreign policy issue of any stripe was to make any decision understandable to a "c" student, while frieghtening folks into wanting accepting its being done."

Biden plagiarized twice and IS a C student, no one knows Obama's birthplace or his GPAs, we do know he never paid a dime for his education, nor did his wife, and they are millionaires.

I would vote for Bush again, if he ran right now.

[A. Green]

What constitutes what data that is accepted o r not? I just wrote a comment and used the term God in it and it was indicated "we can not accept this data". Why not? Is not this a freedom of speech country? Why did you say you could not accept this data?

[Blake]

Cheney won - hands down. He sounded serious, knowledgeable and direct. Obama sounded like a college sophomore trapped in a world of theory, campaigning for student body president.