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Supreme Court today deliberates suit blocking Obama presidency

(UPDATE: The Supreme Court had issued no statement on its discussions by the close of business Friday.)

It may come as something of a shock to those millions planning trips to Washington for the Jan. 20 inauguration of President-elect Barack Obama that he isn't really legally capable of taking the oath.

It's the birth certificate thing. And we have a tendentious video below to show the kind of claims being made that he is not a "native-born" American.

That's because he was born in Kenya to an alien father and isn't a natural-born American as the Constitution requires and the copy of his Hawaii birth certificate looks fake to many and the state won't release the original, which makes everything that much more suspicious.

This controversy has been brewing for many months online with few taking it seriously. The Ticket wrote about it last June and again in August.

We published a birth certificate provided by the ObaBarack Obama's birth certificate as provided by his presidential campaignma presidential campaign, which has caused hundreds of commenters to argue back and forth over its authenticity, especially in recent weeks.

And we'll publish it again right here.

Crackpot controversy, you say. He's been accepted as a U.S. citizen.

But here's the thing: The United States Supreme Court officially takes up the issue of whether to ponder whether Obama can become president in formal discussions today in Washington.

What? Yup! A similar case was thrown out earlier this fall, but Justice Clarence Thomas distributed the legal papers in Donofrio vs. Wells to his court colleagues for legal conference today.

Hardly anyone thinks the case has a serious chance of ...

... succeeding, given the court's distaste for hanging chads and public disfavor for its involvement in settling the Al Gore-George W. Bush presidential contest over Florida in 2000.

Similar conspiracy efforts were mounted over John McCain having been born in a U.S. naval hospital in the Panama Canal Zone, where his father was stationed. They too might well have proceeded had the Arizonan won on Nov. 4.

But just think what would happen if the court did consider blocking Obama's inauguration, with the world already having congratulated him and Obama's Cabinet half-formed, not to mention him already having resigned from the Senate. Oops.

You'll note that Sens. Joe Biden and Hillary Clinton have not yet taken that irreversible step. Just saying.

Our blogging colleague Frank James over at the Swamp has pulled together considerable material on the controversy:

A young Barack Obama now president-elect with a relative in Kenya his father's native country

The suit originally sought to stay the election, and was filed on behalf of Leo Donofrio against New Jersey Secretary of State Nina Mitchell Wells.

Legal records show it is only the tip of an iceberg of nationwide efforts seeking to derail Obama's election over accusations that he either wasn't born a U.S. citizen or that he later renounced his citizenship in Indonesia.

In one of those delicious ironies that makes life so interesting, the justice who distributed the case to his colleagues was none other than Thomas, only the second African American to sit on the high court. One presumes the justices saw some legal issue to mull.

A recent Tribune story wrote: "The most famous case questioning Obama's citizenship was filed in Pennsylvania in August on behalf of Philip J. Berg and sought to enjoin the Democratic National Committee from nominating Obama.

"The U.S. Supreme Court declined to accept the case. Earlier, a federal judge rejected it for "lack of standing" -- ruling that Berg had no legal right to sue. In cases like this, judges sometimes believe the matter is best left to political institutions, such as the Electoral College or Congress, according to legal scholar Eugene Volokh of the University of California at Los Angeles."

The remaining case with the highest profile is Donofrio vs. Wells. Because it was distributed by Justice Thomas to other justices, it gained undue importance for people unschooled in how the court works, Volokh said.

But it was. Now come the court's discussions. And presumably some decision on deciding.

James has more on this much-ignored story over here.

--Andrew Malcolm

Speaking of the Obama Cabinet and inauguration, we'll have full Ticket coverage. To get cellphone alerts on each new item, register here. RSS feeds are also available here.

Photo credit: Family via Associated Press

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THis has been going arround for months, but no one seemed to want to investigate it. I've got my doubts as to whether he is a natural born citzen, but I highly doubt the surpreme court will do anything with this.

adding to previous comment about i believe in the majorities right to chose and they have chosen obama...also, even if this were true, that means we still will have the team in office we want as Joe Biden, the chosen vp will take over, I would hope, just like the constitution says if the pres. is incapacitated in any way to fulfill his duties, the vp should take over, and mr. biden is definitely qualified to do so and was also chosen by the american people, by choosing pres. elect obama and him as the winning team !

Hawaii is proud of having him given a citizenship paper. They will do everything to make sure that it stays that way. Even.........

After perusing quite a number of the posts one can easily determine who voted for OBAMA and care less if he is not an American born citizen.

Problem is, we do have our country's most revered and cherished document, constantly under physical and electronic guard...the original copy United States Constitution to be interpreted by and guide the Supreme Court in decisions of law.

The United States Constitution clearly states the requirements and eligibility to stand for and perhaps become a President of the United States of America.

Barack Hussein OBAMA, Jr. has failed to respond to various requests and even ignores law suits to proove to the every American citizen that he is , in fact, a natural born citizen of the United States.

This inquiry should never have reached the pervue of the Supreme Court of the United States.

This inquiry could and should have been settled and resolved by OBAMA immediately upon knowledge of the many requests for proof of his citizenship.

I am as astounded, as many millions of people round the world, as to WHY OBAMA WILL NOT RELEASE ALL OF HIS PERSONAL DOCUMENTS TO THE PUBLIC. Especially his proof of LIVE BIRTH in HAWAII.

Until this happens every American citizen should demand OBAMA come forward voluntarily and proove he meets ALL the requirements to be President of the United States of America...before January 20, 2009.

According to the IRS, an individual born to a US citizen, outside the United States, is considered a US citizen for tax purposes.

lol, if obama is not a us-citizen i am going to laugh. i think will smith should be president instead, lol just an opinion =) we Americans are funny, filled with hilarious people.

Garfield states on 12/5 @ 1:12pm: staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as "supporting documents" to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.

Update, Nov. 1: The director of Hawaii’s Department of Health confirmed Oct. 31 that Obama was born in Honolulu.
(1) Factcheck did *not* see or post a Birth Certificate. They only looked at the Certification of Live Birth, which can be issued to those born outside HI. See statute below.
(2) The director of the HI DOH did *not* say he was born in Honolulu. She said only that the document is a genuine COLB.

This whole discussion is rampant with sloppy thinking by people who have not bothered to check the facts, or wish to distort them.

Here's the relevant HI statute:

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.


This is really funny, despite all that could happen if he is voted in by the electoral college and the president elect is made president only to find out he is not a natural US Born Citizen, then to go through the mishaps of John McCain being the same thing, its funny enough Biden would still become the President, there is nothing you can do to declare the Democrat and Republican nominations invalid, you would simply have gone to the next winning vote on that ticket, which would be Biden. This has been questioned before when Obama was on the campaign trail and was brushed aside by the biased media as not wanting to seem bigoted calling into question the citizenship of a canidate. Now we are days away from the president-elect not proving he is a natural born citizen of this country. Ever wonder if Obama is going to be an even BIGGER disappointment than George Bush? Right now he's really showing that side of himself by just not producing the documents needed to move past this for the past 2 years.

lol, if obama is not a us-citizen i am going to laugh. i think will smith should be president instead, lol just an opinion =) we Americans are funny, filled with hilarious people.

The US is the only country I know of that does not allow dual citizenship for its citizens. I do believe this is part of the challenges our immigration and naturalization dept has to deal with. Although they are suppose to give up their former countries citizenships (many do), they are able to legally obtain a 2nd passport from original country due to them allowing dual citizenship.

That said. Something off topic and a question of how it applies. If a child is born of a Dad and a Mom, then for whatever reason, another adopts child (whether step parent or adoptive parents), the child is usually granted a new certified birth certificate in the state the child was adopted in and in the adoption name. Does this not make Birth Certificates not the record of choice when trying to establish "Natural Born?" and does it not beg the question what the Framers of the Constitution intended?

It is a good question for the Supreme Court to consider but I agree, I do not believe the litmus test will be proven or disproven in this case.

This whole issue is so ridiculus. It doesn't matter if his father was from Kenya or lived there, his mother is still an american citizen, which is something passes onto any child born of an american citizen. You haters out there need to get over the fact that he's black and a democrat. The republican chucklehead puppet we have in office now has ruined America. He has also proved to be a very un-American kind of citizen. After all, most Americans believe in Democracy and equal rights for all ,not just the wealthy, providers of oil, and their dad's buddies.

I am from Hawaii and my birth certificate looks just like his. They never release the orginal there only the copy.

So this guy made a false document to steal the white house. Thats a crime and not only should he be kept out of the white house, he should be put in jail. He lied to America. Please judges do the right thing and keep this criminal out of office.

Let's settle this. The issue sees to be what does "natural born citizen" mean? According to many posters the children born in the US to illegal immigrants are not citizens. People are assuming that Obama has dual citizenship, while ignoring the laws of Kenya and Indonesia. I think the only thing that probably makes Obama uncomfortable about discussing his birth is that his mother was pregnant before she married Obama's father.

Wow, this really adds a twist to my Letter to America:

I heard these rumors previously, but never expected them to get so far.

The question is, IF, the SCOYUS decides against Obama, whose electors vote on December 15th?

OH GROW UP AND GET LIVES!!!! Sore Losers! The man has offered proof but you still don't accept it? If the DNC or the other organizations that are in charge of certifying documents are satisfied with the accuracy and legitimacy of the documents then what the hell is the problem. Please, you people just need to get over your race issues and barriers and do us all a favor and get a life! The man won! The people have spoken. The election was fair and the man has a heart to take care of people. If he wasn't black would you still have the same argument? When will our country realize that we have a problem with racism and work to try to overcome those issues and work together to become a better nation! Oh come on! Let's move forward and begin the work that we sorely need done. We have far too many people out of work, working homeless people, people who don't have jobs, children who are not eating, homes that are being lost, to worry about issues that have already been settled!!!! Put your priorities in order and let's get to business!

For the time being anyway it is not illegal to be a "Nazi" or a "Racist" so what is the big deal. How would someone be characterized as such? Someone who disagrees with the popular view and isn't guilt tripped into voting for a race baiting misogynist phony? The true "Racists" in this country are the so called Black Leaders who cry foul over every mis-perceived slight in order to get their way. Guess what losers,you just elected the biggest Nazi/Racist ever to hold public office. The joke I'm afraid is on us all.

Ma;ny people seem to be missing the point here.

1. McCain was born in the US Panama Canal Zone, on a military base, to a military man and his wife. All of these things QUALIFY him as a "natural born citizen", as US military bases are considered US territory by extension.

2. Barack Obama claims to have a "Certification of Live Birth", but this is not a "birth certificate", since the "CLB" certificates are legally issued to children who are not even BORN in the State of Hawaii, but whose parents wish to "register" the birth of a child who was born outside of the State of Hawaii. NEITHER of the hospitals in Honolulu open at the time of Obama's birth have any record of him having been born there, nor has anyone even claimed to have been present in either of those hospitals WHEN/IF he was delivered there.

Since the US Constitution CLEARLY has a "natural born citizen" requirement for the presidency, this IS a VERY BIG issue.....if it weren't, then Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger should also be albe to run for President, and he clearly is unable to do so, as a naturalized citizen.

The other thing that is so clearly troubling here is that the campaign which early on mounted a challenge to JOHN MCCAIN's birth certificate (which McCain readily and openly PRODUCED for the record) was in fact the OBAMA CAMPAIGN, yet obama himself REFUSES to produce HIS own legal birth certificate, and has spent over $800,000 in legal fees attempting ONLY to have this matter "dismissed".....

IF THERE WERE NOTHING TO HIDE, why not produce the birth certificate instead of spending over 3/4 of a milliion dollars fighting NOT to produce it?!

The document being displayed at the top of this page is a certificate of live birth. It is not a birth certificate. If you have questions about this matter, please do some research. You eill find that Obama is hiding something and that Philip Berg is not insane.

posted by Lunatic Fringe

Ummm, I am a UNITED STATES CITIZEN, BORN in ATLANTA, GEORGIA and my birth certificate says "Certificate of Live BIrth". Get it straight. Please. He has nothing to hide. People are just more inclined to decide that he's hiding something than to believe that an intelligent, smart, well spoken, outgoing, self-less BLACK man can actually win a presidency! Well HE DID WIN!!!! And the country spoke and decided that he would be the best person for the job so stop trying to screw him out of it!!! Grow some balls why don't you!

It is quite interesting that people would have the audacity to question the citizenship of the first African American elected to the United States Presidency. Certain segments of this country have always felt that African American were not entitled to full citizens. This is simply the same point of view dressed up differently. If there was a legitimate argument that Obama were not legally qualified to serve as president, it certainly should have been raised before American overwhelmingly decided that he is qualified to serve. Finally, if the supreme court were to remove Obama by some legal pretext, it would definitely undermine confidence in the United State's electoral process... The conservative right needs to get over it. Bush Lose. The Suprme Court can not help them this time.

If Obama was born in a country other then the United States then he can not become a president of the United States. I do not think that it is strange that neither Clinton or Biden have said anything why would they. They just used this man to get to the white house because neither one of them could have been elected, the way they got it figured is that at least now they have a foot in the door. Maybe that is why Obama is doing what he said he would not do fill his cabinet with insiders and all he has used are people who have already worked in either the Clinton White House or the Bush White House. This from the man who said he was different. Fat Chance of that same on dance he just had a better tune to play with.. I can't believe that people actually feel for this man hook line and sinker.

All of this is silliness. Obama is POTUS, and impeachment is off the table. Those of us who consider ourselves conservative constitutionalists will continue to organize, educate ourselves and others, and hopefully be able to represent ourselves well in the mid-terms and the next general (they ARE only 2 & 4 years away).

I am hopeful that Mr. Obama has been thouroughly vetted by his colleagues in the DNC. Mr. McCain was born on a US military installation, therefore, natural born.

I could not, would not, and did not vote for McCain. I wrote in Ron Paul. And I did so thinking of all of you who would spit vitriol at each other, questioning the other's patriotism, and generally being hateful toward one another.

Obama's birth certificate is not legal, isn't there supposed to be a notary stamp and state seal on it. If so where is it.?

This column is beyond stupid. The Supreme Court did NOT deliberate on the suit that the blogger mentioned, they merely voted on whether it merited a court hearing. And they decided that it did NOT!!!

The problem with the certification of birth that was submitted is the state of Hawaii can issue that to a person born in another country. It is not a birth certificate. If you look also it has his father's race as African, the word for race back in 196l was black or Negro. The US Census Bureau changed it in l980. It also does not have mother's maiden name, Dr's. name, weight, length nor raised seal. Obama had or still has an Indonesian passport, what did he show to get that. His Kenyan grandmother on video claims he was born in Kenya and she was at his birth. When he filled out the necessary papers when he was elected State Senator of Illinois, one of the questions was, have you ever used another name. He answered No. Lie he was known as Barry Soetoro when attending school in Indonesia. This man lied and broke every campaign rule to get elected. If all of the lawsuits are denied and he is deemed President, he would have done the biggest fraud to America in history.

Hey Dog T ,You bleed and die as easily as we do, but most has been shed by your type, besides the 100s of thousands of whites who died to free poeple from a system that has existed since beginning of recorded history. Big brother has seen fit to spread the violence, perversion, rape etc. from what was once limited to small geographical communites paid for by taxpayers to the whole country. Every month there are 100s of stories of this type of domestic terrorism against America's citizens we are about fed up so watch your threat of the spilling of blood because it may very well be your own. Many are also fed up of paying for others houses and childcare too. Civilized society says get married be faithful take care of your family work for a living. Where I come from we don't have bumper stickers saying Let the children grow-up and Don't Shoot ...Look at the per capita pecentages and quit blaming us for your own lawlessness. You are the biggest racist. If he isn't legal then we need to say later. if he is legal then we need to respect him at least for the office he holds. But if you want respect earn it Bitc.....

He was born in the US people. Hawaii does not allow people to obtain their long birth certificates. If you check the fact check org website there is also a birth announcement for him from a 1961 newspaper.

Barak Obama did do everything he was supose to. He does not show the original birth certificate because he does not have to. He has met all requirements to become president and all the paperwork in his "application" is complete.

For some reason this reminds me of the movie "The Contender": A political thriller about Laine Hanson, a senator who is nominated to become Vice President following the death of the previous office holder. During the confirmation process, Laine is the victim of a vicious attack on her personal life in which stories of sexual deviancy are spread. She is torn as to whether she should fight back, or stick to her high principles and refuse to comment on the allegations. Although it isn't easy, she sticks to her guns, and in the end she is rewarded for it.

Barak Obama has shown himself to be a man of high principles and these attacks on him should not be directly addressed. He should not have to go out of his way to disprove his right to become the President of the United States of America.

For those of you whom believe he is spending too much money to on proving his right to be president, you're right. He should not have spent a dime, but rather not give this "issue" any merit. It is very simple for the average american to go and solve this problem quickly and with little cost (just show the original document). Think about this, the President is not just some average job. We expect more out of our president and after Bush more separation from church. The president like the other branches of our government needs to make choices and lead in a way that might not always seem popular, but is constitutionally right and morally sane.

Good Job President-Elect Obama!

The Obama-haters will stop at nothing in their attempt to destroy democracy- all in the name of "democracy". It turns my stomach to see their irrationality. Its nothing but the reincarnation of the insanity of Hitler's Nazi movement.

That Clarence Thomas leads this effort is only proof that he has no soul, no conscience, no humanity... and no real grasp of reality.

Sad. The rabid right will bring destruction on this country. Look at where we are now thanks to them. Very sad.

Why don't all you from the lunatic fringe post your actual birth certificates on line? Hawaii has provided a certificate of live birth. They have verified that President Elect Obama is a US citizen. If you believe he is hiding something then you also believe the State of Hawaii is lying.

Just how far will you people go to create a conspiracy? There will never be enough proof for you. What a waste of the SCOTUS' time. So typical of this country to waste time on silly conspiracies while the economy tanks and people are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

Ah, all the closet racists come crawling out from under their's a sad thing to s ee really, especially in present day America. Not a single one of you cares about the Constitution, or "upholding the law"- you just can't stand to see an African American finally become president. If the Fed came to your door and threw you in jail for tax evasion, each and every one of you so called constitutionalists would raise hell and fight it all the way, despite the fact that its part of the document you hold so sacred. McCain crashed 5 planes during his service and nobody cared. Fine. But he also locked the records of POW from Vietnam- including his. And he admitted to cracking. I dont blame him in the least, but there are some things that we all want to forget. For all we know, Obama had a sibling that was killed in front of him when he was a child, so he changed his name and tried to forget. People's pasts and memories are their own: each and every one of us has our own skeletons, and having yours dug up is never a pleasant experience. Leave the man alone and get on with your lives. And you racists- you know who you are even if you try to lie to yourself- should all go die. We never needed, and we don't want you, so why dont you catch a plane to South Africa?I hope it crashes on the way there.

The most amazing aspect of all of this?

Republicans demanding that we obey and follow the constitution of the United States of America.

As if there's that much left to follow after Bush / Cheney doing all they could to erase it all.

Jerry w

This is one of the reason's I'm not a big fan of blogs. People just say whatever they want and often have no journalistic integrity. How could someone who writes this poorly be allowed to contribute to major news organizations? When I say he writes poorly I'm not just referring to his content; I'm also referring to his execution. I took ONE simple course in journalism when I was in college and I could write a damn sight better than this nimrod. I can't believe he was nominated for a Pulitzer, though it's no surprise that there's no mention of him receiving one.

I have never in my life seen such a collection of Ignorant people when it comes to knowing their Constitution. From the comments I have read many of you know nothing about the Constitution. I would suggest getting a book and copies of the federalist papers and start to study. If you don't like others demanding that our Constitution be followed to the letter, pack you stuff and get the HELL out of my country! Go live in Cuba where they have NO CONSTITUTION. This issue is not about race, the only ones making this issue about race is the ones griping about it all being about race. I read people say Thomas is a turn coat, uncle tom ect, those are all racial references, its you that's making this about race and its you people that need to get over it. Get over the fact the Dems gave you an illegal candidate. I don't care if the people have spoken, I don't care that the election is over, The Constitution speaks much LOUDER then any person in this country and its more important then ANY person in this country. We don't want Obama out because he is black, its you who wants OBAMA IN because he is black. The natural born citizen clause has been law on the books for over 200 years, why cant you understand that. Why cant you understand that Obama HAS NOT provided a birth certificate, what he gave is a worthless piece of trash, it proves ONLY that he is Breathing, nothing more. What a disgrace to let a British person take the office of President after what we went through getting away from them in the first place. That's the very reason the founding fathers added the NBC clause. So what if its over, 60 million voted for him which remains to be seen since his campaign is getting busted all over the US for vote fraud, sorry but you all WASTED your vote, he is NOT eligible. We tried to tell you before election day but you just would not listen. The Constitution MUST be followed, no matter how inconvenient it may be or " TOO LATE "

If you read the Obama FAQ on his birth certificate it includes a transcript of an individual who claims to have looked into Obamas file and seen the Long Form birth certificate, he states it is a valid certificate, which Hawaii has said, but it says Obama was born in Mombasa, Kenya. Sounds like a good reason to behave just like he is behaving to me. Here is the link to the FAQ. It is very extensive and contains an extreme amount of information. If Obama will just submit his LONG FORM birth certificate to the supreme court it would shut this situation down, BUT he does not have enough respect for this country to give it rather then put this country through this turmoil. Link is below

You can get a copy of a Free Pocket Constitution and Declaration of Independence via link below.


The basis of the accusations that you reference is not racism but fear of the unknown.

Much of Obama's history is unknown. Where the fault lay for that will be debated long into the future.

For some, trust can be established through a verbal declaration of shared values and a demonstration of those values from the beginning of the relationship forward. Some will take Obama at his word because they have no reason not to. They base their trust on faith.

For some, trust must be established through a historical examination of how someone demonstrated their presently declared values. Some will not take Obama at his word because they have no reason to. They base their trust on proof.

Accusing them of racism is naive at best and ignorant at worst.

Everyone who thinks Obama has a fraud cert right now go email the Hawaiian Health Dept. and ask what they send upon request. Certification of Live Birth and no more. They keep the certificate on file and if the FBI or a judge wants to see it they can look without even suing.

Laws in the 1960's stated that if one parent is a US citizen, and the other is a foreign national, the US citizen had to live in the US for 5 years after their 14th birthday. There are several cites above to the current law that was changed in 1984, which do not apply to Obama, Obama's mother was several months short of her 19th birthday at the time of his birth. So if Obama was born in Kenya or anywhere outside US territory he is not a "natural born citizen".

Here is what the State of Hawaii has to say about the Certification of Live Birth:
"In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL."

Obama has an interesting track record with capitalizing on court involvement in his
political career. After Mel Reynolds was indicted 1994 for sex with a minor.
Alice Palmer ran in a special election to take his place in Congress. Alice Palmer gave
up her IL. Senate seat and endorsed Obama who replaced her. Alice Palmer lost that
special election for Reynold’s seat and came back to run against Obama for her old
seat in the IL. Senate primary. Obama challenged Palmer’s nomination petition signatures
and she was disqualified from running. The media pressured the court for Blair Hull's
sealed divorce records and when released showed he had a violent history and Obama
won that primary. Obama ran against Jack Ryan in 2004 Senate race. Obama petitioned
the court to have Ryan's sealed divorce records made public. Ryan’s divorce records
revealed a sex scandal in Ryan's past and he withdrew from the Senate race. Allen Keyes
ran as a stand in candidate at the last minute and the media labeled Keyes a Carpetbagger.
Obama won that Senate seat. So now with Allen Keyes challenging Obama’s eligibility
the cycle has come full circle. Obama is not above the political fray he’s in it…to win it.
Credit to him. The Petitioners want a copy of the vault certificate and the Obama team is not
going to give it up. It will take a court ruling and Obama has been there before. Obama has
been very smart and legally tactical to get where he is today. The voter has every right to
ask a candidate for documented reference without reproach. The media has failed to meet
the standard definition of journalism in this matter.

1) "Natural Born Citizen" is not the same as "US Citizen" or "person born on US Soil"; this was further explained in the Naturalization Act of 1795, where this distinction was further clarified. Also, "Citizen" is used extensively in the constitution, but the phrase "Natural Born Citizen" is unique to Presidential qualifications.

2) 45 states did NOT disqualify the Nicaraguan born Socialist candidate for President. Only 5 Secretary of State offices did their job in regard to ballot validation - at least for one obvious ineligible candidate.

3) By the phrasing of the Constitution, McCain is not a natural born citizen; he is a citizen only due to being grandfathered in by a 1954 law on US military parents giving birth off US soil, which does not supersede the Constitutional definition.

4) Obama, born on US soil or not, does not meet the conditions of "natural born citizen"; a very clear legal distinction. If born in the US = true, that does NOT by itself, meet the terms for "natural born citizen".

5) Constitutional issues are, by definition, the purvey of the Supreme Court. They have responsibility for ensuring adherence, regardless of the hurt feelings. The Supreme Court did not break the law; the judicial branch has responsibility for enforcement. If McCain, Obama or any other candidate is ineligible, it is the fault of the candidate, not the court. If you get picked up for speeding, it is not the policeman's fault that you were breaking the law. This is a country founded on laws, and just brushing one aside because you find it inconvenient, does not make the law invalid.

6) Hypothetical case: Obama NOT a "natural born citizen", but sworn in to the office of the President. ANY law, document, treaty, etc. signed by Obama would be legally invalid.

Obama has successfully fueled the controversy by repeatedly refusing to prove constitutional eligibility. His sealing of college records is also suspicious behavior (foreign registered student?)

There is something broken in the system when candidates that are ineligible for holding the office, actually get on the ballot; and even worse, get elected by the people. However, the constitution does not preclude being elected; it precludes ineligible people from holding the office. This may be the reason that lawsuits, which have been pending for many months, are finally getting heard.

Donofrio's case is about clarifying who is responsible for vetting the candidate's for constitutional eligibility.

And as long as we are discussing the Constitution; no currently sitting member of Congress is eligible to hold an appointed office that had a pay increase (emoluments is the term the Constitution uses) in the new administration. This precludes Hillary from holding the office of Secretary of State, although there is a previously used, but constitutionally questionable, work around (Saxbe - look it up).

Many seem to believe that Bush violated the Constitution, I assume by the failure to give non-US citizens, the rights and privileges of US citizens? Should illegal terrorist combatants - people that do not even have the protection of the Geneva Convention - have all the rights and privileges of US Citizens? Should illegal immigrants?

It is a slippery slope; as soon as we start ignoring one part of the Constitution, where does it end? Do we eliminate free speech? Do we allow unrestricted government search and seizure? Do we remove the safeguards against tyrannical government, guaranteed in the Second Amendment? Where does this stop?

Clarence Thomas gets the distinction of bringing the issue to the attention of the court, not because he is black, or that he even wanted the role; each justice has a geographic relationship, and Thomas is responsible for New Jersey issues that get elevated to the Court.

If the majority of the population decides to do something that is illegal, does that make it legal? I believe that in a country governed by laws, the majority must change the law, not incite anarchy.

The irrational posts, to my way of thinking, are those that want to ignore the law - ignore the Constitution - because it is inconvenient. Winning the popular vote, but itself, does not qualify you for holding the office.

Ok, let us once again play the devils advocate. Let's say that Obama is not eligible, what would the fallout from that be. Simple - Civil War, Martial Law and a pervasive sense of anarchy. Let's not forget one key issue. Barring an intervention from God almighty the federal government will be insolvent on or about February 17, 2009. At this juncture it really doesn't matter anymore. We, as a nation, produce nothing. We consume and we serve. Hence the phrase consumer / service society that has been prevalent in the news lately. We are no longer an agrarian / industrial nation. We haven't been that for quite awhile. So fine by me. Every man and woman will be sovereign and become a law unto themselves beholden to no one. We can either walk onto the world stage as one nation, or we can be relegated to the classification of inconsequential and be reduced to warring amongst ourselves. Which is where we are heading anyways regardless of whether Obama gets officially elected on the 15th of December or not.

We need the rest of the world and whole hell of alot more then they need us and by February 2009 that prescient fact will be painfully apparant.

We either elect him officially on December 15th and move forward into whatever the 21st century holds for us as a nation or we will not be a nation. It is that simple people. Wake up. Pull whatever bodily appendage out of your choice of orifice and get with the program.

As for myself. I am already living sovereign unto myself. So whatever you guys wanna do, good luck.

In response to: (and I QUOTE)

" staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship."

Ok, first I find this hard to believe, as the document in question has been "sealed by the State of Hawaii" as have all other relevant documents.

On to my second point - the quote above is simply laughable. Come on, now - look at it. Read it carefully, word for word. Stop and ponder each idea.

Let's start with " staffers" - what is a " staffer"? - ok, 'nuf said.

It is common knowledge that has deep and inseparable ties to the Obama campaign.

Their post was obviously intended to show them as some kind of AUTHORITY, but really, folks, PLEASE.

Question: Will be involved in the vetting of Mr. Obama? I don't think so. *laughing uncontrollably*

It appears that the Obama campaign is still spending considerable effort to shut this thing up, which is why it should be investigated - not only by the Supreme Court of the United States of America, but also ALL 50 US States.

I think every Citizen of the United States of America (natural, naturalized, or otherwise) has the right to know the truth. If we don't have that right, then the United States of America might just as well dissolve.

As for the race issue? I don't have a preference. I wouldn't care if our president elect were GREEN with PURPLE SPOTS, but I want to know that his loyalty is to the People of the United States of America, 100%, tried and true.

As for the religion issue (separation of church and state)? I think they should be separate, but I also would remind you that the United States of America was FOUNDED ON CHRISTIAN principles.

McCain's case was taken to court and McCain DID PROVIDE necessary inforamation and made it public.

Unlike other's. If there's nothing to hide, then just show us. It's a pretty simple request considering he'll be the President of the USA. What can it hurt?

written by Tony Lopez-Cisneros, December 04, 2008
Although Hawiian Officials have "vouched" for Barack Obama's Birth Certificate as being True, Genuine, Authentic & Valid;

THAT does NOT In & Of Itself MAKE The "Birth Certificate" that Mr. Obama has Stashed, Holed-up and/or Locked Away in a "state vault" any MORE True, Genuine, Authentic & Valid: EXCEPT or UNLESS It Be RELEASED FOR PUBLIC & PROFESSIONAL AUTHENTICATION & VIEWING BEFORE MR. OBAMA IS "ELECTED" PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA BY "THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE" THIS 15th OF DECEMBER, 2008 !--









Tony Lopez-Cisneros
2002/2004 Candidate For Congress,
United States House of Representatives,
4th Congressional District,
State of Illinois.


It's not the question as to him being an actual citizen to me, but more the fact that his campain and the DNC have been "stonewalling" this issue for the past 2 years. If he was a natural-born, why wouldn't he have provided that documentation at the beginning of this circus we now call a presidential campain, as McCain did. Why this and refusing to provide a donor list to explain all of the Middle-East donations from "Mickey Mouse" and "Clark Kent"? Why all of the mystery behind his campain if he is indeed legal and has nothing to hide? Too many questionable areas surrounding one person. And, enough with the race thing. I don't care if he is purple, as long as he is qualified and capable to do the job, especially under current circumstances.

I lost my original birth cert. and I was born in New Orleans. There's a good chance my original copy was destroyed in Katrina. So am I no longer a US citizen. My brother graduated from a university in NO and had an application challenged because the employer could not verify that he graduated from college. So, is his degree null and void? If the state says it has a copy of Obama's birth certificate than why would that need to be challenged?

Okay, I just have this to type, this is what the U.S Constitution has written - "Article II, Section 1- No Person except a natural born Citizen, OR a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President. neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States" Enough said, so now lets just move on :) Maybe the governor (arnold schwarzenegger) of California should run for President in the next term :).

to eric children are grown now, but from the time I had my first child to the time i had my last things change! when my first child was born and my second child i got a birth certificat with my fingerprint and baby's footprint on it along with attending physician(supposed to,but he was not there,so intern signed it with first child), but the last child who was born in same hospital as second no longer issued birth certificates with footprints,etc. All i could get (and i was the mother) was a copy or live birth certificate. In my state they must go to court or other place to get a legal form that states they were born and where etc. ..must pay for it,...and does not give footprints or fingerprint of parent ! None of those documents have a legal seal that people are talking about. They have a rubber stamped round circle with date i purchased . and they are considered legal proof of birth for army, drivers license, and all other needs for proof of birth, but none are like people THINK obama should have, and that it where my thoughts are. I do not think they are educated enough to know how things are done outside their own city,hospital, or state , as i was shocked to find out that I could not get the original birth certificate for my son born last,six years after his brother.

To those who supported and voted for Obama, I say a heartfelt congratulations. Truly. It was an historic day for all Americans. I did not vote for Obama, but he is my President Elect, and I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, this cloud hanging over his eligibility is making that hard to do. Defending and upholding the Constitution is more important than "unity" and more important than any one personality. The Constitution is absolutely central to our form of government. It is the supreme law of the land. If we begin to ignore the black letter text of the Constitution, then it soon ceases to be a constitution and we are on a slippery slope towards tyranny. Some may say we have already started down that slope, but at least up til now there have been arguments presented (even if poor arguments) that at least attempt to address the Constitutional issues and leave the formal authority of the Constitution intact. Just ignoring it is not acceptable.

I just want the Supreme Court to hear the case to show that at least somebody gives a care about the Constitution. They don't even have to necessarily declare Obama eligible/ineligible. I just want the facts and the law on this issue out there for all to see. There needs to be a clear independent determination of the facts and a clear independent determination of the law defining "natural born citizen". Even if the Supreme Court doesn't want to inject itself into a presidential race, it at least needs to be a clearinghouse of the facts and law. Then on Dec 15 trust the Electoral College to do their duty, as they are also sworn to uphold the Constitution. Both of these bodies have a rendezvous with duty. May they rise to the occasion and not shrink.

I suspect that Obama himself does not believe he meets the qualifications of "natural born citizen", otherwise he would have cooperated by now. Some point out that he has already released his "birth certificate" on his website. But the posting of a short-form Certificate of Live Birth (COLB) on his website does not suffice, because that same COLB certificate is given to those of foreign birth who just register their foreign birth with Hawaii. Why does he not just allow his long-form birth certificate (e.g. showing hospital, doctor, etc) to be released. I also find it very revealing that Hawaiian officials will not say he was born in Hawaii; they just say they have seen his birth certificate. That's a very odd parsing of words when the direct question was whether he was actually born in Hawaii. Maybe he was born in Kenya and according to law he could still be considered a natural born citizen. I would be okay with that. Just let the facts and the law be aired. Let the chips fall where they may. Our constitutional republic can withstand the truth faced squarely. But we would not be able to withstand just sweeping aside the Constitution for "unity". If we do so, we will have neither.

We know that the Supreme Court did not issue of Writ of Certiorari today. They could still take it up next week. May all freedom-loving and Constitution-loving Americans pray this weekend that the Supreme Court will muster the courage to do their duty and hear the facts and law on this prior to the Electoral College meeting on 15 Dec. "We here highly resolve... that government of the People, by the People, and for the People shall not perish from the earth."

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About the Columnist
A veteran foreign and national correspondent, Andrew Malcolm has served on the L.A. Times Editorial Board and was a Pulitzer finalist in 2004. He is the author of 10 nonfiction books and father of four. Read more.
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