Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and those pesky MI and FL delegates

With the Democratic presidential nomination fight looking more and more like a draw, party leaders are becoming increasingly concerned about internal fallout should neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama seal the deal the old-fashioned way -- by earning enough delegates for a first-round win at the Democratic National Convention.

As our colleague Peter Nicholas reports in today's paper, the Clinton campaign is still pushing the national party to count delegates from the Michigan and Florida primaries, which she won. You'll recall that those states were stripped of their delegates because the state parties jumped the line and held unsanctioned early contests. Michigan Gov. Jennifer Granholm, a Democrat, and Florida Gov. Charlie Crist, a Republican, made a pitch earlier in the week for both national parties to seat all the delegates from the two states (the Republicans stripped half the delegates from the gun-jumpers).

A couple of points: First, courts have been loath to interfere with internal political party spats, arguing, essentially, that it's up to the parties to create the rules and sort out the messes themselves. But one suspects that if the Democratic National Committee changes its mind and seats the delegates -- even with the acquiescence of the Obama campaign -- while the nomination hangs in the balance, there would be a legal challenge by Obama supporters arguing that the party had violated its own rules after the fact. This is especially significant in Michigan, where Obama removed himself ...

from the ballot because of the sanctions, which meant people there couldn't have voted for him if they wanted to. And that's the kind of challenge the courts might take up.

Second, why is Crist so hot to have the delegates seated? His candidate, John McCain, sealed the Republican nomination the night before Granholm and Crist made their pitches. Yes, it would be good for GOP unity to have everyone seated, and as the party's standard-bearer in Florida, Crist certainly has a responsibility to make that case. At this point, the Republican Party loses nothing by letting all the Floridians in, though we're reminded of the necessity of firm and consistent discipline to handle an unruly child.

But the delegates are more important to the Democratic race right now. And with many Republicans preferring that McCain face off against Clinton instead of Obama, Crist's stance sounds like political game playing, similar to that of the Ohio Republicans who voted for Clinton on Tuesday. And it should be noted that Granholm's intent might not be pure, either -- she's a superdelegate who endorsed Clinton last fall.

-- Scott Martelle

Comments

[Bonnie Lee]

Why is Florida always effing things up?

[PG1923]

Florida and Michigan will hold primaries on either June 10th or 14th. Both primaries will be for Democrats only and will be funde by a large individual donation.

Projected pledged delegate count at that time will be Obama : 1,675
Clinton: 1,552

Giving Obama a 123 vote lead in pledged delecates (those won in an election). If Florida and Michigan were counted, which will be argued at the convention, the race would be within a few votes giving little direction to the Super Delegates.

Florida and Michigan primaries are the only way to resolve the issue before the convention, even though these primaries sitll might not define a winner. Clinton believes she can win if she can get to the Convention within a hundred pledged delegates of Obama. She also has to win the popular vote (counting Florida, where both Obama and her were at least on the ticket). She believes she has the votes to certify the Florida and Michigan delegations but the real appeal is to the super delegates to avoid a confrontation. New primaries are the only way to resolve this devisive issue before the convention, and avoid a real fight days before the general election starts a few days after the convention.

[nic]

Intelligent? Do you two live under the same rock, or just share the same brain cell?

You're totally correct. The media has been a gentle, little lamb towards Obama in the last three weeks. And Mia, before accusing someone of being sexist because they don't back your horse, why don't you look at your own reasons for voting for Hillary? What's more sexist, voting your conscious or voting for someone because they share your gender?

[John]

Hillary has to win legit. If MI & FL delegates are seated without a do-over so that Obama has a chance to introduce himself and compete, I pledge to work hard to see her lose the general election.

[Jim H]

Surely the Democratic party learned in its DNA to "count every vote" during 2000. I understand the problem with the current votes. But the voters of Michigan and Florida need to be counted, and it is frankly odd and hypocritical for Obama supprters to be against the established rules for superdelegates while adamantly insisting on the rules being applied strictly in this case, when it means no votes for Florida. Now who's being Bush-like? Mr. Dean, let them vote!

[Jim H]

There's another thing that's irking me. Somehow, Obama is the people's choice; yet in Texas, which Hillary won by 100,000 or so, the caucus's results, were the opposite of the people's choice, Obama winning by the same percentage as Hillary won the primary. Never has the real contrast between the candidates been shown in such relief. A lot of the activists, and Republicans and Independents, are for Obama, and they show up for the caucus. When the whole population is given a choice, they choose Hillary.

[Matha Davidson]

Oh yes ! By all means count Michigan and Florida. After all it is only fitting to break the rules, when things aren't going your way. After all the Clintons' got away with it for 8 years in the White house , and for years before in Arkansas. Why change now? In fact and indeed, they are expected to stay the course. Makes one wonder why Obamas' message of hope and change, could eek out a single vote! Hmmmmm. OK back to reality.

These questions deserve thorough explanations if Clinton expects to be the nominee, let alone President! Fully VETTED my eye!

• Norman Hsu and his bundling of money for her campaign?
• How "dishwashers, waiters and others" poured "$1,000 and $2,000 contributions into Clinton's campaign treasury?"
• Bill's trip to Kazakhstan with Canadian magnate, Frank Giustra, that netted Giustra $3 billion and Bill's foundation a $131 million contribution from Giustra?
• How powerful foreign donors to Bill's presidential library, such as the Saudis, may pose a serious conflict of interest to Hillary's foreign policy actions as president?
• How Bill's tangled ties to an investment concern of Clinton friend, Ron Burkle, and it's dealings with Dubai may yet, again, threaten to compromise Hillary Clinton's execution of foreign policy as president?
• The fact that with all of these questionable financial dealings, the Clintons have been unwilling to release their tax returns, especially in light of Hillary Clinton claiming that the $5 million she lent the campaign was "her own money?"

[pleaseanswer]

It was NOT the Florida voters who decided to move the primary date up, it was the Republican controlled state.
We cannot claim to be a democracy if we let 1.7 million voters here in Florida to be disenfranchised for something they didn't do.
How can we preach about bringing Democracy to other countries in the world and yet so many people here are OK with the undemocratic decision of DNC which would result in 1.7 million voters getting disenfranchised.

[Tampa FL]

Florida and Michigan delegates should NOT be included unless a new vote is taken. I live in Florida and I didn't vote because it wouldn't count and it would have been a waste of my time. In fact, I thought Democrats in Michigan and Florida were silly to vote that day because we were already informed it was of no consequence. Trust me, many people didn't vote for the same reason and it would be incredibly unfair to not allow everyone who wants to be counted to be counted.

[CAPaul]

Pooja b -- how naive: "I'm not saying hil doesnt have any but most of hers are out in the open." I'll agree when they release their tax returns and we can see where the millions are coming from, and what Bill's business dealings are. The media also needs to investigate Bill - do we really think he's keeping it zipped?!? Like it or not, Bill is fair game come Fall, and he's an enormous target and liabiity. Could be McCain in a landslide.

[judy]

I just want to stress that we need to win this presidency and make serious changes or we will have another war lord in the white house and you know what that means ... it will never end. I like Obama for his simple solution to our economy: End the war in Iraq and use the 4 billion dollars we spend every day over there to fund AMERICA! Schools, colleges, Social Security, Medicare, make health insurance affordable, the list goes on and on!
Hillary, you just seem so darn greedy and mean spirited the way you campaign. You and your husb already had 8 years in the white house, hey, give it up to someone fresher and not so mean and jaded as yourself. You and Bill aren't who you were when you ran for office way back when. Back then, you were more like Obama and his wife Michelle. Now you're old mean grinches. Back out and help Obama beat John McCain. Please.

[Texas Democrat]

WAKE UP! THE REPUBLICANS DO NOT WANT TO FACE OFF AGAINST SENATOR CLINTON. THEY WANT OBAMA. THEY KNOW THAT HE WILL FALL UNDER SCRUNITY. MOST IMPORTANT IS THE FACT THAT IN FLORIDA, THE POLLS SHOW OBAMA LOSES TO McCAIN, BUT HILLARY BEATS McCAIN. THE SAME IS TRUE IN THE OTHER "SWING" STATES. START LOOKING AT THE PRESIDENTIAL STATE POLLS VERSES NATIONAL! THEY TELL THE REAL PICTURE! HILLARY WINS IF SHE IS THE NOMINEE. DEMOCRATS LOSE IF OBAMA IS THE NOMINEE!

[Mia]

Intelligent? Do you two live under the same rock, or just share the same brain cell?

You're totally correct. The media has been a gentle, little lamb towards Obama in the last three weeks. And Mia, before accusing someone of being sexist because they don't back your horse, why don't you look at your own reasons for voting for Hillary? What's more sexist, voting your conscious or voting for someone because they share your gender?

Nic, you're either backpeddling, or your thoughts have caught up to your first post in which you seemingly were putting down someone for their opinion about the media's lack treatment of Obama.

I know what my reasons are for supporting Hillary and they're far too long to list here. But I'll leave you with this thought: If I support Hillary and not Obama, people like you will come to the conclusion that it must be because I'm a sexist, feminist, racist...what have you. What you don't understand is I was supporting Edwards until he dropped out for the simple reason I agreed with the issues and concerns he had. Now, I'm supporting Hillary and if Hillary drops out I'm supporting Obama. Tell me what that makes me? A flip flopper? The name calling, flaming and mud slinging of a candidate isn't productive or necessary to a good discussion; it's just more of the same and no one has to read any of these posts. But if you're going to post a comment, I'd like to see some well thought out points made; otherwise, you're boring me.

[trueblue in pa]

I am torn between Clinton and Obama. I personally like and admire things about both of them. I am a true blue democrat. But, I have never found any ONE canidate that I agreed with 100%. I have found a few that I agreed with 80+% of what they have done, how they have done it and what they have said.

I will vote for either Obama, or Hillary. I was originally a Edwards supporter myself. But I would be proud to have the first woman, or the first person of color president.

But what will upset me tremendously is another Republican reign with the status quo. I am tired of more of the same; the only way to evoke real change is to elect a Democrat in Novemer-be it Obama, or Clinton.

Those of you that have questioned whether you would vote for McCain-in order not to vote for the dem canidate you did not like. I think you need to ask yourself. Do I agree with McCain's vision for America, which is Bush's vision for America and the RNC vision for America.

I think, we Americans need to start using our head more and thinking things through a bit better

[Matha Davidson]

To pleaseanswer:

Of Course it wasn't "the voters" who disenfranchised Florida. It was the "republican controlled state" that the majority of VOTERS elected. Now you have to live with it. The MAJORITY chose. Most Democratic voters didn't VOTE for the war in Iraq either.
Their elected officials that they VOTED for...AKA ...HILLARY CLINTON.... sure as shootin' did!! The American people didn't want to lose their jobs to NAFTA either. They VOTED for BILL CLINTON and he sold them down the river, when HE introduced it and had it passed. Is there ANY intelligent life in Florida?

[David Hunter]

I would like to point out something all Dems should think about. If Hillary schemes her way to the nomination and takes it away from Obama, what do you think the result would be in the African American community? Since Obama has gotten 70-90% of their vote in the primaries I think at least half will stay home, because of the race baiting and going negative in the campaign. The last time I looked any ”D” running for President needed them in those close toss up states. Are we killing ourselves?

[FlaMom]

This MADNESS Must be STOPPED!!!!!

Let the DNC hear how you feel LOUD and CLEAR:
http://www.floodthelines.com/fldemocraticdelegates/

[Jeannie]

Yea Martha! You said it. All these Clinton people are saying that the press is easy on Obama. When the story about Bill and Gusta broke I thought it would be all over the news. It was barely mentioned; swept under the rug. Both Hillary and Bill are typical narcissists! They do what they need to do to get what they want with no shame or remorse. I am an independent voter who has voted for Republicans, Democrats and even for Ralph Nader (once). I am voting for Obama because of his authenticity and integrity. His views do not differ THAT much from Hillary's - so I might as well vote for someone who seems legit.

[Billy]

I live in Michigan. The media in Detroit kind of told everyone that only Hilary's name would be on the ballot, and that you are wasting your time if you vote for Edwards or Obama, because the ballot would just be marked "Other".

That being said, I know the results here would be equal to Ohio's if held again. We may not get along in college football, but Michigan and Ohio are very similar economically and socially and share many affinities. Count on HIlary winning Florida with the Latino vote.

[JC Olson]

C'mon folks. Here's the final scenario unless you're so busy you literally can't afford to pay attention. Corporate America through the media decides elections. The super delegates will give Hillary the nod because Barack won't do. Hillary can't win in the presidential election and guess what: You have a president elected by the corporations for the corporations and nothing more. It is so simple its scary. Our country is a farce in the eyes of the rest of the world. And guess who sold us down the river. CORPORATE AMERICA. God help us all!

[Jeff Saeli]

The Democrats have done all of this to themselves. If this is any indication how a Democrat President and Democrat controlled Congress would govern, I hope Hillary and Obama don't make it ti the White House. There system is a joke. The same for the Democrat candidates, and all who believe the dribble the Dems are saying.

[Blake]

From Michigan

If you seat those delegates you cause a civil war. That is the price of your pride.

[poet1b]

How convenient is it that Florida and Michigan were stripped of their delegates when both states fit Hillary's demographic. The whole thing has smelled like fix from the beginning. Add to this how the democratic machine has came out for Obama giving him all the caucuses were the elderly and women could easily be intimidated, and this thing stinks as a fix from the beginning. Moving S Carolina up before Super Tuesday with the way its demographic heavily favored Obama adds more fire to the idea the the democratic party has fixed this election against Hillary.

Hillary was forced into signing the Four State Pledge, and has every right to protest at this time. If the democrats do not come up with a solution that pleases enough people, then they can kiss the white house good bye for at least four more years. Leaving Florida and Michigan voters out of the contest simply will not work. In fact, you might see the democratic party completely unravel, because personally I am so disgusted by this process, I am ready to abandon the democratic party for good.

Keep the Florida vote as it is, and the DNC should pay for a Michigan do over.

Personally, McCain is the one republican I can see voting for. He has moved to the right, but if he gets into the white house, chances are that he will move back to the center.

If Obama gets the nom and loses the general, it will take a miracle to resuscitate his presidential aspirations.

[alee21]

The politicians in Michigan and Florida decided the dates for the primaries. The voters and hence taxpayers of those states should not be penalized. Obama took his name off in Michigan so it was his choice. As a resident of Michigan, I do not want a re-vote and certainly not a caucus that will essentially exclude the working class, the elderly and those who can't afford to spend hours in the evening hanging out at some polling site. All the candidates' names were on the Florida ballot so the DNC should seed those delegates according to the outcome of the January primary. The reason why Obama is hoping for either a re-vote or to exclude those delegates is so that he can spend millions of dollars blitzing the airwaves with his vapid message.

[mud_flower]

In Texas, caucus votes are "called in" voluntarily. Texas was expecting about 3.3 million votes, there were 4.2 million voters that turned out on Tuesday.

Caucus votes could not begin until all the primary voters had been counted. In some precincts the caucus didn't even begin until after midnight. Each precinct chairperson has 72 hours to mail in the original documents and caucus results.

If I remember correctly, as of Thursday only 49% of caucus votes had been called in. The results of the Texas caucus will not be official until the District Convention on March 29.

So I wouldn't count delegates until the caucus results are made official.