Democrat party leaders inch toward agreement on Florida, Michigan

What a mess this Michigan-Florida business has made for the Democrats! But signs began to emerge today from several directions that some kind of bi-state compromise might be emerging.

With polls and early voter turnout auguring a very good political year for Democrats, the last thing that fragile coalition of interests wants is to be torn asunder by an enduring struggle or hard feelings by a wing supporting Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama.

Already the Republican nominee, John McCain, is at work on his general election team, plans and strategy while the two Democratic camps, for lack of any real substantive differences to dispute, argue over advisor's remarks, plagiarism, Ken Starr of all people and what time of night crisis calls arrive in the White House. Plus Michigan and Florida.

The problem began with the now-humorous multi-state rush to the....

front of the calendar line to hold state primaries, thinking the early states would be decisive this cycle. At least that's the way it looked way, way back in 2007. Now, with the Obama-Clinton race fairly tight, all eyes are focused on Pennsylvania of all places on April 22. So, early wasn't best after all.

Anyway, despite Democratic Party rules and warnings to protect the early status of New Hampshire and Iowa for reasons that no one outside those irrelevant states can really explain, Florida and Michigan defiantly moved their dates up.

Some state Republican parties did the same, but the GOP's punishment was to reduce, not eliminate, their delegates.

Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean, whose own presidential campaign blew up in Iowa when he did too one night four years ago, ruled that both states' delegations would not be recognized at the convention in Denver in late August. It is, of course, ultimately untenable for either party to write off two such important states.

But almost everybody among the serious candidates played along. Most removed their names from the Michigan ballot except Clinton, who never got around to it. And they all honored the ban on campaigning in either place, although some did hold Florida fundraisers, which were allowed. And somehow, son of a gun, word got out to the media, so the cameras and reporters were there and it looked, for all the world, like campaigning to millions of viewing voters.

Clinton won in both places and even held a victory rally in Florida after the election that wasn't supposed to matter. With no Obama on the ballot, she got 55% of the Michigan Democratic vote. But, ominously, even without serious opposition fully 40% of the party voted for "Uncommitted" instead of her.

As a bargaining position, Clinton has held that both states should be counted and seated and millions of votes not disregarded (not counting Florida votes has bad echoes for Democrats since 2000). And doing so would, not coincidentally, erase much of her delegate deficit behind Obama, who opposes it.

What to do?

Another vote in both places? Expensive and both state's governors -- one Democrat and one Republican -- said public money shouldn't be wasted on a fractious party's unnecessary internecine fight. A caucus? Given his impressive record with caucuses, that clearly favors Obama and requires finding hundreds of meeting sites.

Let them fight it out before the credentials committee in August? Could leave hard feelings in the loser's camp and only two months to patch things.

Leave it to the superdelegates? How could they realistically go against the two states' documented popular vote? But, oops, those votes aren't supposed to count.

Today, as often happens on slow winter Sundays after the NFL season, more attention was paid to the Sunday talk shows by folks who weren't going to church. And there, a possible consensus began to emerge among Democrats.

The answer: a mail-in ballot. The cost: maybe $6 million, according to Florida Democratic Sen. Bill Nelson, who proposed the solution and is working with Michigan's Democratic Sen. Carl Levin on a compromise. According to law, Florida's party can accept unlimited donations.

Dean on "This Week with George Stephanopoulos," said mail-in ballots were "not a bad way to do this." On the same show Levin expressed concerns over security for a million or so mailed ballots but said, "Only a mail-in kind of a vote will work."

On the same program and CBS' "Face the Nation," Dean claimed it was a "bigger issue than Florida and Michigan. We have a very close contest between two people who are likely to be elected President of the United States, whichever one wins the nomination. I have to run these rules so that the losing side feels they've been treated fairly."

Dean added that some solution needs to be completed within the next three months. When anyone looks back over the last three months, June 10 seems like an eternity of twisting and turning and bickering away.

-- Andrew Malcolm

Comments

[cynthia]

I dare the bloggers to print tihis.
Three times in your column about the Michigan, Florida primaries you singled out your idea of Hillary's disgression.
Barack Obama and the other candidates were not required to pull their names off the ballot in both states. In fact, his name was on the ballot in Florida, and anounced before the Michigan vote, that a non-vote was a vote for him (that's not advertising?). It is the truth Barack Obama had TV advertisements airing in both the states of Florida and Michigan where supposedly they were forbidden to do so, begging off that he couldn't control national ads when the other candidates could. Hillary did not take her name off the ballots, and in my opinion honored the Americans who voted. Please, don't treat this election as if it is an 'AMERICAN IDOL' competition. I have two sons in the military, and I am sick and tired of this election being hiijacked by you two elderly guys out for entertainment. You call yoursellves journalists?? PROVE IT!!

[John Cavanaugh]

Florida and Michigan could employ the Texas "Two Step" approach. Allow the original votes to count for 1/2 to 2/3 of the delegates and then have a caucus to determine the rest.

[Andrew Benjamin]

They went early. They were warned...repeatedly not to. They broke the rules anyway. Now they are being rewarded with a do-over? I think every other state's citizens should file an equal protection suit in every federal court they can find. No one else gets a do-over no one disenfranshised them; they did this to themselves. Want to vote? sure thing we welcome your "legal" vote in the general election.

[Dawn]

I'm sorry....I just don't get it. Why, just because the campaign is close, are we even considering allowing Florida and Michigan to vote? A decision was made a long time ago, so why should it be be changed now? This is totally unfair to Obama and I find it an outrage. If Clinton wins because of this, I will absolutely not vote. How can we change the rules 2/3 into the campaign?

[Richard S'Chevalier]

Now how is it that it may be permitted to change the rules in the middle of the game. Hillary Clinton has shown her true greedy self, do anything and say anything to win. There had best be an awakening to what the actual outcome will very possibly be if the rules are now changed. You will see a nation so terribly divided that it will actually destory the Republic. Should those who may erronously believe such would not to happen are simply refusing to realize the actuality of it. Both the previous Clintons co-presidency and present Bush presidency has destroyed most all respect other nations once had for us. Must we now simply leap into the abyss of total destructions, because of the present political greedy pandering of the Clintons and their lackies.

[NinaK]

The original DNC ruling to not seat Michigan and Florida delegates at the conviention MUST STAND! Hillary, Michigan and Forida did not have a problem with the rules until 18 long months later. The ONLY reason it is an issue now is because HILLARY LOST HER INEVITABLE CROWN AND IS BEHIND IN STATES WON, THE POPULAR VOTE, AND DELEGATES!! that is the ONE AND ONLY REASON. Michigan and Florida did not start whining uintil HILLARY STARTED WHINING!! I mean, 18 months (a whole Year and a half ) went by without ANYONE complaining!! The DNC CANNOT CAVE IN TO CLINTONS DEMANDS PERIOD!! It is evident Michigan and Florida were okay with the rules until Hillary started churning her crapola of "not fair" . The people in Florida and Michigan were aware their delegates would not be seated...and they did not complain about fairness or unfairness until now.

LET THE RULES STAND!!! DO NOT CAVE IN TO HILLARY'S WHINING, AGAIN, DO NOT CAVE IN TO HILLARY'S WHINING. IF SHE WAS IN THE LEAD, AND MR. OBAMA WAS WHINING, YOU CAN BET YOUR BOTTOM DOLLAR SHE WOULD BE TOTALLY AGAINST SEATING THESE DELEGATES!! ENOUGH OF GIVING IN TO THIS SHAMELESS AND SELFISH EXUSE OF A WOMAN AND CANDIDATE!!!

(Nevermind Clinton for a minute. Say Obama is the candidate in November. Doesn't the party risk losing two very important states in November with their crucial electoral votes because their angry Dem. voters and delegates were not counted this winter and summer? Just asking.) P.S. Leaving the same comment many times still doesn't get it posted more than once.

[CRS in San Francisco]

Hillary already lost my Vote. In the general I am voting for Obama or Nader (if she hijacks the primaries.)

[NinaK]

The original DNC ruling to not seat Michigan and Florida delegates at the conviention MUST STAND! Hillary, Michigan and Forida did not have a problem with the rules until 18 long months later. The ONLY reason it is an issue now is because HILLARY LOST HER INEVITABLE CROWN AND IS BEHIND IN STATES WON, THE POPULAR VOTE, AND DELEGATES!! that is the ONE AND ONLY REASON. Michigan and Florida did not start whining uintil HILLARY STARTED WHINING!! I mean, 18 months (a whole Year and a half ) went by without ANYONE complaining!! The DNC CANNOT CAVE IN TO CLINTONS DEMANDS PERIOD!! It is evident Michigan and Florida were okay with the rules until Hillary started churning her crapola of "not fair" . The people in Florida and Michigan were aware their delegates would not be seated...and they did not complain about fairness or unfairness until now.

LET THE RULES STAND!!! DO NOT CAVE IN TO HILLARY'S WHINING, AGAIN, DO NOT CAVE IN TO HILLARY'S WHINING. IF SHE WAS IN THE LEAD, AND MR. OBAMA WAS WHINING, YOU CAN BET YOUR BOTTOM DOLLAR SHE WOULD BE TOTALLY AGAINST SEATING THESE DELEGATES!! ENOUGH OF GIVING IN TO THIS SHAMELESS AND SELFISH EXUSE OF A WOMAN AND CANDIDATE!!!

[Joseph L. Ponessa]

In addition to primary and caucus, a third option is a state party convention. All the elected Democratic state and federal officials from Michigan or Florida could meet as a convention, and elect a slate of official delegates to send to the national convention. The cost would be minimal compared to any kind of revote.

[Computer Expert Witness]

What a crock!!! "...to protect the early status of New Hampshire and Iowa." Have the "Sacred Cows" of Iowa and new Hampshire overcome a State's right to choose when to have their primary? Give me (and the rest of the nation) a break. So much noise or "Buzz" comes out of these two races, you'd think that the candidate has a clear mandate, whether it is Jimmy Carter or John McCain. Let's move into the 21st Century and just have sections of the nation (Northeast, Southeast, Southwest and Northwest) of the nation vote on a rotating basis, every Presidential Election year, in 45 day increments.

[ToeKnee]

I still find it funny that Obama was on the ballot in FL and Hillary won! He was on the ballot, he had ads running & he lost. Simple. Why the media wants to drag this out is obvious, ratings. Now for MI. by all means lets do the mail-in. Obama was not on the ballot, he did have ads running, but hey, lets just move on. I really don't care if Obama-Clinton or Clinton-Obama is how the ticket reads as long as we don't have another 8 years of a Republican in the White House...

[Ben]

Still does not make sense. Is a close contest no doubt, but how does changing the rules in mid game make it more fair. Is still going to be a close contest. This is like in stone paper scissor. After you loose one hand, you ask for 2 out of 3. Is a well known trick. It gives the loosing party one more chance to win. It is considered cheating by those who know statistics well. How can the DNC allow a statistical cheating trick in an election.
Public should not buy this changing the rules unless party leaders can fully explain how it makes election more fair. Good luck.
Worst case scenario is Barack lost because MI and FL were included. You will never satisfy half your Democrats and the black population with that one.
If Hilary lost because MI and FL were not included, no one would complain except Hilary. Think about the consequence before you do something so stupid.

[Eric Scott]

We've had almost eight years of a president who feels that the rules only apply when they favor him or his friends. Now Hillary Clinton is taking this same arrogant and cynical approach, pressuring the DNC to change their rules mid-stream simply because she cannot win any other way. How very Bush-like of her. Coupled with the incompetence of her campaign, the divisiveness of her politics, and the secrecy about her financial affairs, it seems clear that what she's really offering is another four years of "same old, same old". America deserves better. Michigan and Florida knew the score and made their decision anyway; them's the breaks.

[smokey]

Am I the only person in the world who didn't know Obama wasn't even a US senator who the vote to authorize force was taken? Obama wasn't sworn in until Jan-2005! I'm freaked out! The press makes it sound like he VOTED AGAINST THE WAR, and HE WASN'T EVEN THERE!! I'll be a sob.

[cb]

Caucusing is a bad way to run an election. I was involved in the Texas Two Step. We are neglecting to count the votes of individuals who are unable to caucus because of health, failure to get transportation, etc. If the Democratic Party is about all voices being heard, why are we doing this to our sick and elderly. Do you want their votes to count. The night of the Texas Caucus many seniors told me their friends just could not make it. I felt sorry for so many seniors who stayed. It was obviously stressful. Either a primary(where absentee voting is permitted) or a mail in. All of us should be counted!!

[allanb]

Y not have a winner take it all (whoever rakes in 2025 delegates). This saves expenses for the party.

[Roger]

The DNC may not accept the citizens of Florida & Michigan's voice at there convention but come November they can't suppress there voice any longer. I think Florida & Michigan citizens will at that time make very clear there voice! As will there fellow citizens all across this country who believe in a citizens right to have there voice heard and there vote count. The DNC will regret having gotten away with a bad & illegal rule that is in conflict with the constitution of the United States. Our government leaders may not want to take on the issue because they are all part of a party but we the people know wrong when we see it and come November we the people will let the DNC know they should have counted the Florida & Michigan votes and chosen delegates in a open and fair election that was conducted by the government.

[Doug]

I have an idea: When state parties break the rules set by the national party, the state's delegates do not get seated at the national convention. Wait, that's already been proposed (by the Democratic Party).

Primaries are not a democratic process, where representative results set the standard for validity. The primaries belong to the parties, and they are the parties' way of selecting their candidates.

Remember: These are not your candidates or mine. They are the party's candidates that are being selecting, and the process of choosing them belongs to the parties, not to you and me.

The rules were clear, and Florida and Michigan blatantly broke the rules.

[highwayscribery]

Toeknee,

Mike Gravel's name was probaby on the ballot, too. That doesn't mean he had a campaign there. They all signed a pledge not to do so in Florida. It was not a legitimate competition and that's why it doesn't count. Clinton won something that was not contested. Obama's commercials were part of "regional buy" and hardly make up for the mailers not purchased, envelopes not stuffed, speeches not given and so on.

the scribe

[Thomas]

Florida and Michigan should not get a re-vote. Their state legislators decided to break the rules and so if their constituents are angry at being disenfranchised, then they should take it out on their own state officials, not the whole country. I am sick of Florida's ineptitude making problems for our elections.

And another writer was right when they noted how shameless Hillary is talking about the right for voters to be respected. If she was up without these two states, she would do anything humanly possible to keep these delegations from being seated. She epitomizes the politics of personal ambition and destruction.

What is disenfranchisement is not denying these delegations, its stealing a nomination from the person that has more pledged delegates, more states and more of the popular vote. If Hillary does that, then she will have pulled a Karl Rove-George Bush-Supreme Court coup and then....

as I fierce lefty, I hope the Democrats go down in a ball of flames in November. I will help that happen by staying home.

[Polly Farmer]

According to Florida Statute, a mail-in primary is NOT legal:
"101.6102 Mail ballot elections; limitations.--
(2) The following elections may not be conducted by mail ballot:
(a) An election at which any candidate is nominated, elected, retained, or recalled;"

[Victor]

Those of you who are totally against a re-vote just don't get it. If the Democratic National Convention DOES NOT seat these delegates, neither candidate will have the required number of delegates to win the nomination. What will have to happen then? Will they have to "bend the rules" and give it to the candidate with the most delegates between them? Last I checked the required number of delegates to win the nomination was still 2024. I know Obama supporters would want to end the contest based on that scenario instead of just admitting their bias is leading them to say they don't want to see a re-vote in Florida and Michigan. He can't win any of the big states or any of the so-called "swing states," such as Ohio and Florida, but he can sure win big in states that will go to McCain in the general election. The popular vote means nothing (unfortunately) because of this thing called the Electoral College. If the democratic nominee can't win any of the swing states, we will reluctantly see McCain win the presidency.

[George]

I just had a funny thought!!
Obama has to take Casey up (the girl, his supporter, in Clinton’s fear night call ad) and make a really nice commercial :

The add should be the girl waking up from a nightmare of Clinton promoting McBush over Obama and dividing the party for selfish reasons. Make it a comedy.

(Good one, George. Very clever. You've got a future career in politics obviously, if you don't have one already.)

[Swannie]

OBAMA is a hypocrite, and not qualified by his judgement or actions to be president of a nation where people have died to preserve their right to vote, because he is so willing to put his ambition and interests above that of the people ... is this what he he wants us to be proud of?? thank godness Hillary pushed for voters representation
arent the " RULES", those various and sundry rules that were in place to make sure only the right people voted.... the right way ... arent the RULES what kept black voters from voting in so many elections for so many years??Arent they ???So now if it is in his interest the "rules" which he failed to follow anyway , are important to him?? I guess it doesnt matter if voters are disenfranchised .. as long as the "right party" wins and ciill and constitutonal rights that people died to uphold dont matter .... ONE PERSON ONE VOTE ... THIS IS still the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

[NotstraDEMUS]

Victor:
You've hit the nail squarely on the head.
The last time I checked, there were 50 state stars on the flag of the United States, not 48!
Chairman (I have a scream) Dean's churlish decision to "punish" Florida and Michigan for having the temerity to maximize early leverage in this Primary season was simply put, stupid. Beyond the obvious electoral college math you point out, Democrats would forever cede their alleged moral high-ground over Florida 2000 if we selected our nominee with both of these state delegations not seated. If Dean doesn't figure out how to be a "Solomon", instead of "Stalin", then it is likely that we will see President McCain inaugurated in January of 2009.

[adele]

My goodness....I live in the southern hemisphere and am highly dissapointed in the hatred generated towardsyour politicians....and as for blocking out huge states like florida and michigan ??comon....democracy???remember??and may I suggest a little less of the character assasinations on your candidates ...its boring..

[Jason]

After a good amount of reading, I wanted to respond to a few points made above. Before I do, though, I'd like to offer a framework for my prospective: I'm a black man and an Obama supporter, though Obama was not my first choice among Democratic Presidential nominees. Also, I'm a Floridian whose January 29 vote did not count. In short, as far as resolving this FL/MI business goes, I'm quite possibly damned if we do, quite assuredly damned if we don't.

As far as pre-Jan 29 advertising goes, I believe both candidates worked to circumvent the rules. Obama set up national advertising, Clinton appeared at Florida fundraisers while her husband showed up on national television in support of her campaign. I award negative points to both. May God have mercy on their souls.

As far as having my votes stripped, obviously I'm unhappy. Long before Jan 29, I followed the story. I watched as Florida legislators on every level rebelled, swearing to their constituents that the RNC and DNC would never strip away Florida's voting power because we as a state held too much influence. I'm watching now as those same elected officials cry foul. Woe is us. How dare they punish us for doing exactly what they warned us not to do?

We fought the law and the law won. Too bad it was really every voting Floridian and Michander who lost in the end.

What's the solution? A caucus would be a bad idea for the very same reasons outlined above. A mail-in ballot? Paper, voting, and Florida just don't mix. A second chance to do it right? Maybe. But giving both states a chance when the delegate count is so close would just give us what we wanted in the first place: doubled importance. Conversely, I think the lesson has been learned. I doubt any state will jump the gun anytime soon. Most importantly, this is America; no voice should ever be rendered mute.

But if you think stripping away our delegates violates the Constition, you've got some rereading to do. This is a primary, not a Presidential election. That's why the DNC can split a state's delegates by vote while the RNC gives the winning candidate credit for all. The national committees can count delegates as they wish.

That's not to say that I'm happy about the way things turned out, or even satisfied. However, I place the blame for this where I feel it should rest: with the Florida officials who rebelled and the Florida voters who elected them. I'll take out my frustrations the next time I vote for my governor and congressmen.

It is fact that the DNC and RNC announced that they were punishing us long before we held our primaries. It is fact that Hillary did not come out in state support until the day after the results were tallied to her favor. Going back on her promise to ignore states that broke the rules is not some grand and noble show. It is the audacity of desperation.

Finally, the idea that Obama can't win swing states is misguided. His ability or inability to win a swing state in a primary has little to do with his chance to win the same state in a Presidential election. Obama vs. Clinton simply isn't the same as Obama vs. McCain. Besides, during many swing-state primaries there were three names on the Democratic ballot, not two. Who knows how Edward's supporters would vote now? What does matter, though, is Obama's ability to pull the independent vote and his positive character image, both of which are McCain's strengths. Poll after poll has shown that, with the way things stand, McCain would have a tougher time against Obama than he would against Clinton.

Let's review: my legislators are idiots, my vote should count, Clinton has gall, Obama '08.

Done.

[dj]

Next election cycle in 2012, what to keep any other state from breaking DNC rule just to get to be in early primaries. Will they be punished, the 2/3 into the primary they will be seated. How about 7 state breaking party rules and doing the samething Michigan and Florida is doing. Give me a break. If it was against the rules, let the rules stand.

[AM]

Just give both of them, Obama and Clinton 200 delegates each, equally without any condition.

Then, one of them could get 2015 delegates before August.

If they need more, then give them another 100 each forget about Florida and Michigan since they broken the rules.

That's all folks!

[ML]

I'm not sure why everyone is so sure that Clinton would win Michigan and Florida. The "primaries" they held happened a long time ago, and as a resident of Michigan, I can say I saw no campaining for the democratic primary. Many who voted felt disenfranchised and many others did not go out to the polls at all. This debate has been polarized between the two parties by endless speculation, but no one knows what would happen until they see an actual vote. Regardless of the rules and how the other states feel about the fairness of a re-vote, the Democratic Party NEEDS a vote in these states. In such a tight race, they need to fully test the canidates' electability and they need more delegates in order to get one or the other candidate up to a winning count. Let's try it and see what happens!

[Kire]

I WANT A RE-VOTE! The folks in Michican and Florida didn't understand the consequences of holding their primaries when they did. This isn't fair! Again, we're being kept from our right to vote! It's 2000 all over again!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!

[John]

The Clintons' selfish interests can destroy the Democratic Party. Kudos Obama, your credentials are sound.

[Thomas]

Victor,

Hillary won't win any of the "big" states or the swing states either because millions of people will just stay home because they LOATHE her. She is momentously unelectable.

[JDK]

cynthia,
Yours is a perverted logic. Hillary did not honor the voters in MI & FL. She agreed to the DNC ban on MI & FL but kept her name on the ballot to fool other serious contenders into believing that she is not campaigning. Now she claims to have won the states? When she agreed to the ban, how can she claim victory? Seating those delegates is unfair to the other candidates who abided by the agreement. Obama's name was there on the ballot in FL, not MI. Stop lying. Only one ad he ran and then he ordered to stop it after the DNC ban. Hillary has a name recongnition in MI & FL just like all other states when Obama didn't start his campaign. Once his campaign started in a state, the gap almost disappeared and he overtook her in many states with his message. Now Obama did not get the chance to campaign in MI & FL. The very basis of elections is for candidates to campaign and let the voters decide who they want as their leader. So, without the candidates not campaigning, how does the existing results really reflect what people want? In my view MI & FL delegates should not be seated but if it comes to a point where their voice needs to be heard, either a re-do or splitting the delegates is the best way to go.

[Penny]

What ever happened to Obama's take on the Iraq war defending his voting since the commencement of the war. You know, the bus is in the ditch statement. This is where we are, and we need to move on from here. With that being said, I think all the voters need to be heard.

Since Obama withdrew his name from the ticket in Michigan (for whatever reason), Michigan should be a do over state. However, both names were on the ticket in Florida and the people have voted, so I feel Florida should remain as is.

[Peggy Teichmiller]

If you want to define unfair, look at how Ron Paul has been treated! If he got half the air time as Obama or Hillary there would only be one candidate to even think about! This comment probably won't even see print but I think it's about time all the candidates were treated fairly and not just the mainstream medias' choices...He is what the Republican Party is all about!

~P~

(Well, if you've been a regular here in recent months, you've seen quite a bit of coverage of Dr. Paul, including details on how he's been ignored elsewhere. So feel free to return anytime.)

[ajk]

Can't anybody stick to the topic? How can Florida and Michigan vote? How about the primaries they already have scheduled to select candidates for congress and statewide offices? There is no additional cost to adding three lines: President of the United States (select one): Hillary Clinton; Barack Obama.

Is that really so hard?

[Kenneth M. Bailey]

It's amazing to me that the people reporting the circumstances that transpired in Florida are simply following eroneous information reported by their collegues, instead of verifying the facts. As reported in a CNN/Time Magazine piece back in August of 2007; It was the Republican legislature and Governor in Florida that decided to move the election date up and the Democrats simply did'nt have enough votes in the legislature to block the measure. It is pure folly for the DNC to punish the Florida Democrats for something they had little say in; and for an action that resulted in a new election day that is one (1) week earlier that the rules would allow. Please get the story right!

[michelle owens]

Al Sharpton is going to sue the democratic party if they give Hillary the vote. How absurd. We voted in the state of Florida all names were included. None were suppose to campaign. Barrack had air time in both states. Hillary won in a landslide in Florida and Michigan. Why do we need to revote, is it because Barrack wants the table turned so he can win. I thought that when Al Gore wanted a revote it was said, " revotes do not exist. Barrack Obama sounds to me he wants to divide the democratic party. Hillary is winning the popular vote. Obama the delegates. This is suppose to be a democratic vote. The people have spoken,"Seat Our Delegates!'

[Jenna]

When did democrats stop believing that EVERY vote counts? Dean should have never completely stripped them of delegates in the first place (republicans did it right and halfed the delegates). All this whining about changing the rules makes no sense to me. The rules were stupid to begin with. Why say the rules should stand without looking at whether the rules made any sense in the first place?

[jdk410]

With all the talk about how to handle seating the delegates from Michigan and Florida - I though it would be interesting to see what the public thinks is the best way to resolve the issue.

Share your opinion and view the current results.

Participate in Poll:
https://howtohandlemichiganandflorida.dabbledb.com/page/howtohandlemichiganandflorida/EwLtZtre

[Vee Robillard]

OK. I suggest this newly formed thinking should apply to all the contests in the USA from now on:

In the Super Bowl, if the losing team finds themselves down by 14 points in the third quarter, they should not be penalized for the rest of the game. After all, isn't this more fair to the fans who've paid to see an exciting game?

In the Indianapolis 500, the car in second place during the last 10 laps, should be allowed a free pit-stop and tire change, so that the fans get the best value for their money.

In the World Series, if a team finds themselves down by 2 runs or more going into the ninth inning, the leading team must remove their second baseman. Afterall, wouldn't this be more respectful of the fans hard earned money?

If the Clinton's are allowed to rewrite the rules because they are losing (one can be certain this is the only reason they are suddenly concerned about 'disenfranchised' voters.) Why were these issues not raised before the primary season began? Because she expected her coronation. Now the crown looks more elusive, and she wants to change the rules. This is a perfect example of the Clinton machine at work, and if she wins, the USA is faced with more of the same Washington BS we've endured for the last 20 years.

[Jackie]

Angering Florida's Democrats is a bad idea right now. They were both on the ballot, they both stuck to the rules. Seat FL's delegates.

Michagin needs another solution though, as seating those delegates is clearly unfair. Mail-in sounds pretty good at this point. Fair to both candidates.

[bode]

I do not usually comment on pages such as this, but it amazes me that American people can be so ignorant. I am a republican, and I will be voting for McCain in November regardless of how this primary business pans out. It would be nice for me if neither candidate got the delegate count needed; maybe the supreme court could rule that there will be no Democratic Presidential Nominee (I could only hope).

Anyways, Democratic or Republican, the state leaders in FL and MI chose to break the rules and I feel they should be punished. We all know Democrats aren't the brightest colors in the crayon box, but I'm sure they will figure out a solution to this problem; and when they do, I say that they implement the solution and then seek punishment on the states for their actions last year.

Further, I would like to address you Clinton and Obama supporters. Clinton is an unqualified liberal that will economically ruin this country. Also, like her husband, she will cause even greater problems in the middle east. She claims to have a great amount of experience, but as a New York native and political science major, I can tell you that her experience is negative to say the least. The only thing she does well is campaign with dirty methods as she targets the uneducated voters that constitute the majority of her constituency. As for Obama, he is a moderate idealist that gets as many anti-Clinton votes as he does pro-Obama votes. His experience may be low, but need I remind you that the youngest and least experienced President in United States history was able to handle the Cuban Missle Crisis? Obama is a motivating and empowering speaker, his ability to speak is the Democrats best chance to win the general election. Trust me, the American population will not tolerate the dirty, negative, far-left campaign of Clinton throughout the coming months. McCain will receive Republican, Independent, and anti-Clinton Democratic votes in a general election with the NY Senator.

So, let FL and MI do a re-vote, put Clinton in the general election, and let me sleep well for the next four years knowing that there is still a qualified President in the White House in the form of John McCain.

[marion]

No wonder why today's youth, instead of accepting the consequences of their actions when they've disobeyed rules or laws, just whine about how they've been discriminated against and treated unfairly. Our society permits it at all levels, starting with the election process.
Florida and Michigan were aware of the possible consequences of voting early and accepted them. Now they want to change the rules and be allowed back in the game. They don't have the right to let their voices be heard. They forfeited the right months ago! The Democrats should stand strong and enforce the rules, otherwise, it all begins to look a little too shady. Is the Clinton Machine behind all this?

[Diane]

The DNC Leaders who made these rules should be willing to show flexibility and allow the original Florida votes to be counted, as was the will of the people who voted. This DNC rule is insane!

Florida has already “voted” in the Primary. If this truly is a democracy, Florida votes should count.

The Primary date changing from January until June, or “Anytime” before the date of the Democratic Convention, should be acceptable.

Who makes these rules? This is taking away Freedoms from Americans! Whoever decided this should step down from the job and the rules need to be corrected. The DNC should own up to their mistake.

It is not “American” for the votes not to be count the first time!!!!

[DaveMuckey]

We've had Vote by Mail in Oregon for quite some time now. It's a great solution, relatively inexpensive and a decent solution for this. The voters shouldn't be penalized for their state parties' over inflated egos, but they knew what the rules were when they broke them.

As for Iowa and New Hampshire's odd claims to be first in line, I'd love to see rotating regional primaries replace the current hodge podge schedule.

[Jane from New Mexico]

This is an no-brainer. The democrat parties in both Florida and Michigan decided to break the rules and have the "primary" anyway. Of course it can't count, and they knew this ahead of time. They are behaving like children. It is their problem. They made the decision, knowing the consequences. They still have the option of holding a legal primary, but, they, of course, must pay for it. How could it be otherwise? It's simple really.

[wolf]

This so reminds me of the problems in our judicial system --- not sticking to rules or laws, when it happens to favor some "special person" or people.

The simplest, fairest thing to do, is stick the rules already laid out. Florida and Michigan, because of the actions of their legislatures, should not be seated. If they don't like this, they need to change their representatives and/or primaries... for next time. Not midway during an election.

[Clif Thompson]

I am so tired of hearing how Hillary is supposedly fighting for the rights of voters to be heard. People who are following that line of bull totally forgot Nevada.

Nevada was almost the exact same scenario. EVERYBODY agreed to the rules: in this case, the locations of the ballot boxes, of which most were concentrated in the Restaurant and CAsino districts. This was decided A YEAR IN ADVANCE.

But when Barack surprisingly got the nod from the Cullinary and Restaurant Workers Union, all the sudden, the Clintons (okay, Bill) cried fowl, talking about how votes in the casinos were 5 times worth more than votes in the rural areas.

On top of that, the Teacher's UNion, whom were outnumbered by teh Cullinary Union 6 to 1, decided to file a lawsuit, saying that the location of the ballot boxes skewed towards casino workers. Guess who the Teacher's union endorsed: Hillary Clinton.

That lawsuit, if it stood, would have disenfranchised all of those working in the Restaurants, the Casinos and the Las Vegas Strip, who were mainly Black and Latinos (the core voting groups at the time).

HIllary didn't say anything then, and even won the popular vote (Barack won 15 delegates to here 14, so much for Bills math).

So for anyone out of Florida or Michigan that's canonizing Hillary Clinton as your Joan d' Arc, really need to look at your patron saint a little more closely. She isn't looking to represent you, she's looking for you to represent her in two states where many voters DID feel disenfranchised, and used that to her advantage.

As far as I'm concerned, if you guys don't suffer the consequences than who will? and at what cost if you don't? Sorry, but you guys should not be given the exception. We are responsible for our government we live under, and that's no more true than in the United States of America.

[Pat]

The voting for the Primary elections should be done the same as the general election. 1! day to vote for all states and you can only vote within your party. That way there is no events such as Texas where it was known who the Republican front runner was, and where Republicans were given a huge opportunity to vote for a candidate that could most likely be beat by the Republican runner.
This way all states play a part in deciding who the democratic nominee should be instead of opening the doors in past years where 50% or more of the states dont even play a part because it is usually decided by now.

[Edna]

To all the ignorant-of-the-facts people who are vociferously stating that "they broke the rules, now they have to pay!", are you aware that it was NOT the millions and millions of innocent, long-suffering voters in Florida and also Michigan who broke the arcane, arbitrary and minor rule about primary date setting? Are you further aware that, in FL, it was the REPUBLICAN-CONTROLLED legislature that set the primary date? So you are saying that MILLIONS of innocent voters in two huge, diverse swing states should be disenfranchised and have their votes not count for anything because "they" broke the rules? Who are the "they" that you refer to? Certainly not the very people Howard Dean has opted to "punish", namely: THE VOTERS!!! Surely you couldn't mean us, right? And since you couldn't, then surely you realize that the punishment not only doesn't fit the crime, but is directed at millions and millions of the wrong people, right?

Good, just wanted to make sure. Because for a minute there, it sounded like some of you were cheering on the disenfranchisement of millions of voters. But I knew you wouldn't be so decidedly un-American as to do that, now would you?

[Edna]

P.S. To swannie, I say RIGHT ON to these eloquent words of yours: "OBAMA is a hypocrite, and not qualified by his judgement or actions to be president of a nation where people have died to preserve their right to vote, because he is so willing to put his ambition and interests above that of the people ... is this what he he wants us to be proud of?? thank godness Hillary pushed for voters representation"

He is indeed a total hypocrite. I can't believe more people don't realize that...yet. But they all will eventually. I just hope it isn't after this sloganeering empty husk of a politician becomes our commander and chief!

[Janie]

Let's see........Obama & his campaign constantly remind America of his "sound judgement", his "insight", his ability to make the "right decisions".........soooooo, why didn't he have his name on the ballot for both Michigan & Florida??? Not a smart move on his part. In this instance it appears to me that Hillary Clinton made the smart, insightful, right decision and used sound judgement BY putting her name on the ballot for BOTH states and therefore she should be the sole beneficiary of those delegates that the people of both states have already taken the time to vote for. Florida & Michigan, if there is a way for them to legitimately appeal their obviously "wrong" decision to move their primary date, should be allowed to have their delegates count BUT ONLY AS THEY STAND AS OF TODAY!!!!!! There should be no other primary, caucus, mail in or any other expense by anyone just to allow Mr. Obama to get delegates where he and/or his advisors so fit to "disregard" in the first place.

[nmp]

We already voted, period. The right to vote is an almost sacrosant right. The democratic party has traditionally been the party of the disenfranchised, yet we are being disenfranchised by our own party. I do not support a revote of any kind. The millions of Floridians that excecised their voting rights should be respected. This is no longer about cnadidates, its about voting rights. The decisiion to change the primary dates was from a Republican Legislature, it was not the choice of the voters. Why should we be punished by political manouvering The solution has to come from the DNC. Our delegates have to be seated. Unlike Michigan, all canditates where on the ballot. It was as fair an election as there has ever been. The only campaigning I ever witnesses was Senator Obama's CNN ads, which were running heavily.

The backlash againts the DNC is growing in Florida. Many people I know are waiting for the final decisions to be made and depending on the result are considering registering Independant even vote for MacCain. I mean, this is a swing state DNC needs to listen not to the politicians, but to the voters! It can cost the Dem Party irrepairable damage. A caucus? Have they lost their minds?! That would be absolute pandemonium, and in a state heavy in tourism and services would mean thousands would be disenfranchised, again. Mail-in? thats a joke! Another primary? No way I already voiced my opinion and I am not paying out of my tax money so the DNC can save face. Politicians made this mess, they should clean up. We the Democratic voters of Florida already spoke.

[Holly Farish-Hunt, EdS, MS, ARNP and LTC - AN(Ret.)]

First a little history from a real FL born boomer; FL has NOT always been a Republican controlled state. In the past years, if one wanted to vote in a primary then being a registered Democrat was the only way to experience that citizenry right; there were no Republican candidates. Second, as several well-read, bright folks have pointed out, the decision regarding moving the primary to an earlier date was made by our Republican congresspersons and Governor, NOT any citizen of our state. Primaries are about parties selecting candidates and not about the general election. Of course, the now archaic Electoral College concept still dictates assigned votes, however along the way from the original intent we have somehow aquired hundreds of "super delegates", clearly an artifact of what is better known as dirty politics and chronyism. We should be ashamed for allowing this to happen; Oh, that's right, we never had an opportunity to vote on the concept and now it's reality. Not strange. And then we have the American citizens that whine, complain and mistate facts that either never registered to vote or never vote when registered; no wonder things are in a mess and nothing political really represents the voice of America. We have the voice of a few yet again.

Thirdly, might anyone have read enough to note what one person so astutely pointed out that the issue of a re-vote in the State of FL is NOT legal. True. Talk about following the rules of the DNC, like it or not, how's about following the letter of the law.

Do I feel personally disenfranchised as a Floridian and an American citizen with the right to vote and have that vote count? You bet. It seems prudent that we follow the rules of the exisiting election process, however flawed it may be. If and until we as citizens vote for officials that care more about our country than their own personla notariety and power AND vote to change the electoral process then these inane events will continue to occur. One fact is real and the world knows about it: FL canNOT handle paper ballots.

Bottom line, the FL Republican legislature and Governor broke the rules, the FL law forbids a revote and the politicians, both Repubulican and Democrat, are more concerned with power, control and themselves than the political process itself. I've never missed voting in a local, state or national election no matter where in the world I might have been at the time. This current primary means that my vote counted, however it won't be promoted to the Democratic National Convention through a delegate to select a presidential candidate. I've long thought the popular vote should hold anyhow. I believe that the other 48 states likely represent the opinion of the VOTING American citizens so shame on FL for being so idiotic as to position for an early primary at the expense of our votes. As to MI, that's their place to follow the letter of the law of MI and the DNC to determine what will be done. Assuming they aabide by the DNC rules, then they would have no revote or delegates to the convention.

Am I happy about this? No, the vote in each of the two states in question did NOT in any way represent the true Democratic vote anyway; many voters did not vote in the primary knowing that we had no delegates to the convention where the democratic presidential candidate would be determined. To use the exisitng votes would be misrepresentation, to revote a breaking of the law, and to change the rules in midstream an outright attack on the existenece of any rules at all.

This is NOT about Clinton or Obama and either of their personal campaign politics. This IS about following a standard process and not allowing politics to change the rules midstream. I say, no revote, no delegates and focus on how to change the overall process from the ground up. And, BTW I have all the respect in the world for John McCain, am a 26 year Vietnam era veteran, love my country, and am voting Democrat; our country must create a change and not continue to dig a deeper hole in democracy and citizenry rights. After all, is this not America?

[Zola Daniels]

Alright,Already as the saying goes. The rules were broken so now we have close election to pick our candidate for President. According to state statute of Mail-in limitations 101-6702(checkout) Florida cannot have Mail-In vote. My thoughts would be take few away for punishment and SPLIT THE REST> That would be fair!!!!!!!!! If this goes on McCain will win and so We BOMB Well our ECONOMY IS IN TROUBLE!!! So we don't need another BROWNIE ADMINISTRATION>

[A. Morton]

Regarding the Florida/Michigan problem:

I can see the point of those individuals who feel strongly that "the rules be followed" and we as Democrats don't "change them in mid-stream".

If one follows this logic, then we must conclude that the rules regarding the delegates be followed, i.e., a candidate must have 2025 to be nominated.

While it seems "fair" that the candidate having the most pledged delegates at the end of the process be the victor, this is not the rule. The DNC has the Super Delegate process for such circumstances and, whether you think it's right or wrong, it's their rule (at least for this election cycle).

In short, you can't argue that "rules are rules" for Florida and Michigan and then turn around and advocate a change of DNC rules for the delegate count.

Sadly, it is what it is... we did this to ourselves with this ridiculous mix of Primary/Caucus, Iowa/New Hampshire,
Pledged Delegates/ Super Delegates etc.,

There's no one standard, so we are indeed set up for failure. When will we learn???

In the absence of Clinton or Obama delivering a knock-out blow, the DNC "rules" are coming home to roost... we are all going to have to get over it or watch the White House stay in the hands of the Republicans, period.

[Hako]

I am personally sick to death of some Obama supporters continuing to insist that the Florida/Michigan re-do is Hillary's idea. They have no clue about the details and the political wrangling in Florida last year regarding moving the primary. And what about the voters in these states? They are the ones crying out for their votes to be counted....Hillary agreed, that some way should be found to count them....all votes...not just hers. Sheesh, give the whole "Hillary is in league with Satan and is stealing the World" stuff a rest. She's just a human being, and she doesn't have that much power. As I understand it, the Democrats in Florida TRIED to move it back to February, but were blocked by the Republicans, who have majority in Florida. I know this.... we CANNOT tell millions of people that they can't vote, or that their votes didn't count. It doesnt matter what kind of misguided "rule" the Democratic Party came up with, the principle of one person, one vote trumps the "rule".

[Joseph]

Florida Again???? The DNC and the nominees all agreed that the delegates in MI and FL would not count. Now Clinton is pushing to have them counted for her? Or a re-run?? How stupid does Clinton think we are? Now that she is losing the nomination she wants to steal it away from Obama and the majority of the American people. Pretty selfish. Split the delegates one-half to each and be done with it. Does anyone know how many Americans could be fed with the money they will waste on a re-do? Outrageous.

[Home4TheWinters]

Boohoo for Florida/Michigan!!! When will the government, citizens, and everyone in general start taking responsibility of their own actions? Florida/Michigan made a decision to change its primaries after being strenuously forewarned about the consequences. They did not heed that warning and now it's time to pay the piper. In the case of Florida, the voters need to make a note of which politician(s) called for the change, and vote them out of office. Hey Florida voters...get your notepads and pencils out...it was Sen. Jeremy Ring who fathered this chaos. Once again, as we've seen in the past, Florida is wasting our nations time and resources all because they can't get their act together. Lets face it, all of this silly nonsense means nothing simply because the state will be won by the republican presidential candidate as long as a Jeb Bush constituent (aka, Charlie Crist) or the republican (oops...I mean conservative) US Supreme Court has any say. Summary: TAKE A HIKE FLORIDA/MICHIGAN!!!

[Flip Flop and Fly]

Trust democrats to talk tough on crime and then to flip-flop
on it when the poor misguided leftist rabble-rousers wing
of the party acts up. The crime perpetrated by thedonkeys
of Michigan & Florida is but a small manifestation of the
nepotism ,state of moral bankrupcy.and rampant cowardice that typify the demoratic nomenclatura. A mandatory sentence has been voted unanimously for this
offense so let the mop flop accordingly.