After sleeping on it ...

LAS VEGAS -- Well, when we doused the lights last night, the general sense here was that Hillary Clinton -- wearing her "asbestos" pantsuit -- had managed to right her slightly listing ship during Thursday's Democratic debate at the University of Nevada-Las Vegas.  And after a short night's sleep, we don't see much reason to change that early assessment.

In what may have been the night's signature theme, John Edwards got in the first harsh criticism of Clinton after moderator Wolf Blitzer asked him about his pre-debate slap that she was engaged in the "politics of parsing." Responded Edwards:

"The most important issue is she says she will bring change to Washington, while she continues to defend a system that does not work, that is broken, that is rigged and is corrupt; corrupted against the interest of most Americans and corrupted for a very small, very powerful, very well-financed group."

You can't really call it a trap, because Clinton didn't ask the question.  But she obviously was ready for it:

"I respect all of my colleagues on this stage. And, you know, we're Democrats and we're trying to nominate the very best person we can to win. And I don't mind taking hits on my record on issues, but when somebody starts throwing mud, at least we can hope that it's both accurate and not right out of the Republican playbook.... [F]or him to be throwing this mud and making these charges I think really detracts from what we're trying to do here tonight. We need to put forth a positive agenda for America telling people what we're going to do when we get the chance to go back to the White House."

Bill Richardson picked up the theme and that set the undercurrent for the debate. Even Edwards came back and said none of the harshness was personal, simply the politics of pointing out the differences among the candidates. To be sure, there was some bickering and a few more rocks thrown, but none of them were the kind of pace-shifting moments that could make or break a campaign. And how could they, after the chief rock-thrower essentially told voters not to take them seriously?

In broad terms, Clinton showed that the last debate was the aberration, and that she's resumed her firm grasp of the reins on that front-running horse.  And no, she hasn't been targeted by the others because she's a woman, a theme that emerged after the last debate. "They're attacking me because I'm ahead," Clinton said.

Overall, Clinton did what she needed to do.  Barack Obama again gave a rather lackluster performance, marked by a few sharp moments.  Edwards, as we pointed out, self-negated and did nothing to help himself climb out of his swing spot as either being the bottom of the top tier or the top of the bottom tier.  Chris Dodd, Joe Biden and Bill Richardson came off as amiable, capable candidates but, again, no fires were lit.  Dennis Kucinich, in his best moment, didn't know when to stop, capping a compelling soliloquy with the kind of comment that energizes the progressives but alienates the core of the party:

"The president of the United States is called upon to make the right decision at the right time.  And you've seen here tonight people who voted for the war, voted to fund the war, now they have a different position. People voted for the Patriot Act. Now they have a different position. People voted for China trade. Now they have a different position. People who voted for Yucca Mountain. Now they had a different position. Just imagine what it will be like to have a president of the United States who's right the first time. Just imagine.... [W]hat are you going to do about this president, and for that matter the vice president, because they're out of control, and Congress isn't doing anything. It's called impeachment, and you don't wait. You do it now. You don't wait."

But in what may become the debate's biggest echo, Obama booted the question that everyone in the English-speaking world knew was coming -- whether he supported issuing driver's licenses to undocumented immigrants. That's the question that Clinton fumbled in the last debate, and that Obama's campaign had been using as a bludgeon ever since, accusing Clinton of being incapable of delivering a straight answer to a simple question.  Obama's answer Thursday?  Well, you navigate these currents:

"When I was a state senator in Illinois, I voted to require that illegal aliens get trained, get a license, get insurance to protect public safety. That was my intention. And -- but I have to make sure that people understand. The problem we have here is not driver's licenses. Undocumented workers do not come here to drive. They don't go -- they're not coming here to go to the In-N-Out Burger. That's not the reason they're here. They're here to work. And so instead of being distracting by what has now become a wedge issue, let's focus on actually solving the problem that this administration, the Bush administration, had done nothing about it."

Blitzer followed by asking Obama whether he supported issuing the licenses, and Obama said: "I am not proposing that that's what we do." When Blitzer then said, "This is the kind of question that is sort of available for a yes or no answer," the crowd laughed -- clearly getting that Obama had lost his way home.  Asked moments later for a "yes or no" answer, Obama said, "Yes." Now, how hard was that?

Of course, not that many of you watched the debate (you can read it here while pretending to work, but be warned, this morning it was still an early transcript and incomplete).  One of the realities of presidential campaigns is that what gets said in the media today has more of an effect on perceptions of what happened than the event itself.  That's why debate organizers open up those little "spin rooms" outside the debate halls to let the candidates or their surrogates try to persuade the media that they didn't just see what they just saw.

So feel free to add your two cents' worth in the comments section -- consider it your personal spin room -- and we'll figure out if we all saw the same debate.  But since this is Vegas, we'll wager that'll be a no.

-- Scott Martelle

Comments

[Mary Ozmann]

Edwards' language was intriguing in the debate. He talked about the "system" which he says "is broken, is rigged and is corrupt." Which I guess he's always said, but I realized that is the central premise of Unity08 (this is the organization that will pick its own bipartisan ticket for president). Could Edwards be courting the Unity08 ticket from the side of his mouth? These candidates must be facing the reality that Hillary Clinton by far the leader. Perhaps there are contingencies in the works for runners up?

[Stan]

CNN have no credibility...

"Diamond v. Pearl" Student Blasts CNN
Maria Luisa, the UNLV student who asked Hillary Clinton whether she preferred "diamonds or pearls" at last night's debate wrote on her MySpace page this morning that CNN forced her to ask the frilly question instead of a pre-approved query about the Yucca Mountain nuclear waste repository.
"Every single question asked during the debate by the audience had to be approved by CNN," Luisa writes. "I was asked to submit questions including "lighthearted/fun" questions. I submitted more than five questions on issues important to me. I did a policy memo on Yucca Mountain a year ago and was the finalist for the Truman Scholarship. For sure, I thought I would get to ask the Yucca question that was APPROVED by CNN days in advance."
Now, Luisa is getting "swamped" with critical e-mails.
So what happened?
Writes Luisa:
"CNN ran out of time and used me to "close" the debate with the pearls/diamonds question. Seconds later this girl comes up to me and says, "you gave our school a bad reputation.' Well, I had to explain to her that every question from the audience was pre-planned and censored. That's what the media does. See, the media chose what they wanted, not what the people or audience really wanted. That's politics; that's reality. So, if you want to read about real issues important to America--and the whole world, I suggest you pick up a copy of the Economist or the New York Times or some other independent source. If you want me to explain to you how the media works, I am more than happy to do so. But do not judge me or my integrity based on that question."
Rivals to Clinton believe that the debate audience had a pro-Clinton tilt. UNLV was responsible for distributing most of the tickets.
In a separate post, Luisa provides the question she wanted to ask:
Yucca Mountain, NV is the proposed site for the country's nuclear waste repository. Despite scientific evidence that it is a vulnerable site, the federal government continues to push for the plan to move forward. The evidence relied on is unsound and the risks involved in transporting high-level radioactive waste across the country are high. What will you [Sen. Clinton] do to ensure that the best site/s is/are chosen for the storage of spent nuclear reactor fuel?
A CNN executive did not respond immediately respond to a request for comment; I'll give them equal space when they do. A friend of Luisa's confirmed that the MySpace page belonged to the woman who asked the question. Read for yourself below

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/

[Danielle Clarke]

Wolf and Hillarys paid plants couldn't beat Obama and the truth. !!

""PLEASE YOUTUBE"" THE IRAN VOTE AND IRAQ WAR VET CLAPPING AGAINST ATTACKING IRAN WITH HIS MOM

Hillary also stated that she thought the american education system served us well ?? NOT ! !

AND THE TAX CAP

Hillary votes no to win votes but she won't speak the truth. Barack has the courage to speak the truth. Citizens need everybody to have drivers liscense so they can be monitored for insurance and accidents and alcohol related deaths. He also pointed out the need to PASS an imigration bill to get those people on a path to citizenship. They will be needed to feel like americans so they can keep our social secuirty system fluid.

Hillary also got BUSTED on her statement about not RAISING THE CAP on social secuirty because she says the tax increase will hurt the middle class!

Barack stated that the 6% getting paid 97,000.00 a year is NOT THE MIDDLE CLASS !

Hillary also stated that she thought the american education system served us well ?? NOT ! !

Hillary also got BUSTED on her vote for the kyle Lieberman and the mother and the Iraq war veteran son who clapped when the rest of the candidates pointed out they were AGAINST the Kyle Lieberman bill to make the Iranian guard a terrorist organization and how the bill also allows for Bush to keep troops in iraq !!

Yes Hillary got busted BIG TIME the truth always comes out.

Thank God we have a candidate like Barack Obama who speaks the truth and doesn't shift back and forth trying to get votes. Hillarys thinking people won't catch her shifting her point of view from one location (town) to another as she lies lies lies trying to sway the american voters !!

Hillary on pakistan http://www.liberaloasis.com/2007/11/clinton_on_pakistan.php

Here's Sen. Hillary Clinton discussing Pakistan at Thursday night's debate: = http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/15/us/politics/15debate-transcript.html?pagewanted=print

... there's absolutely a connection between a democratic regime and heightened security for the United States. That's what's so tragic about this situation. After 9/11, President Bush had a chance to chart a different course, both in Pakistan and in Afghanistan, and could have been very clear about what our expectations were. We are now in a bind, and it is partly -- not completely, but partly -- a result of the failed policies of the Bush administration.

So, where we are today means that we have to say to President Musharraf: Look, this is not in your interest either. This is not in the interest of the United States. It is not in your interest to either stay in power or stay alive.

Sure sounds like she wished Bush pushed for democratic reform in Pakistan, instead of propping up Musharraf's dictatorship.

But here's what she said in a debate from August, = http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/us/politics/07demsforum.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

when criticizing Sen. Barack Obama's pledge to strike terrorists in Pakistan's border region if Musharraf would not act on actionable intelligence:

I think it is a very big mistake to telegraph that and to destabilize the Musharraf regime, which is fighting for its life against the Islamic extremists who are in bed with al Qaeda and Taliban.
Of course, as everyone now knows, Musharraf is primarily fighting for his life against lawyers and judges, not the tribal militants.

Sen. Clinton is not alone among Dem candidates in supporting Musharraf.

Both Sen. John Edwards and Sen. Chris Dodd have expressed support for Musharraf to maintain "stability."

Whereas Obama, Gov. Bill Richardson and Sen. Joe Biden = http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=3498294

have been more consistent in supporting democratic principles.

[Clinton Bush Dynasty]

I smell a 4-pete!

4 more years of Clinton-Bush!

Too early to say the D word?

[Oscar]

The audience seemed to unfairly discriminate against Obama and Edwards with boos because Hillary is a woman. This was an inappropriate double-standard.

Hillary will not be able to count on booing crowds against the Republicans. This is non-sense

[Flower Benjamin]

I couldn't believe what I saw in last nights debate. And I can't believe how stupid CNN believes the American people to be. They delivered to their boasted 4 million viewers the most scripted, question planted and audience biased debate I have ever seen in my life. Obama, Edwards and Kucinich were unfairly booed in a political debate, which should have not allowed clapping or booing.

The audience was clearly biased and promted to clap and cheer. Do we the American people really look that stupid CNN? Candidates can't debate their differences due to fear of "muddslinging." I can remember the Bush administration using the same tactic to hush up people who opposed the war calling them, unpatriotic. Perhaps that's where the Hillary camp learned it since she only promises only to do a better job of managing current issues, rather than push for a change in the system.

God help us all if we're subjected to four more years of a "better" managed Bush regime.

flower

[Jade7243]

After sleeping on it -- and putting myself through watchng the debate both times it aired on Clinton News Network, I have to say I feel Sen. Obama did great last night. HIllary returned to the harpy that she is.

If Mrs. Clinton thinks the sharpened attacks against her thin resume and triangulating ("Whatever that is," said Blitzenbomber last night, as if he didn't know), she should get prepared for the reprise of every Clinton scandal and sleazy moment of 1992 through 2001. The proverbial manure is yet to fly.

Over all I was pleased by all of the other candidates who stepped up their performance as well. And when Chris Matthews of MSNBC's Hardball says the booing of Edwards and Obama was too scripted to be anything other than orchestrated, and when Ed Schultz of Air America says "CNN and Wolf Blitzer really bent over for Clinton." you know something's up. (and note that he did not say "bent over backwards" just bent over, as if to suggest position suitable for getting royally screwed -- which the voters are getting, screwed that is.)

Wolf Blitzkrieg's performance was absolutely horrendous, his interrupting all except for Clinton, his ignoring Dennis Kucinich, his stupid yes or no questions left not only a foul taste in my mouth, but no doubt that CNN is shilling for Clinton. And the "post-game" wrap-up" headed by nothing but Clinton operatives? Give me a freaking break.

Each time I see Obama and Edwards and Biden I am convinced that some combination of the three as Pres, VP and Secy of State would be the best for the country.

Obama gets my vote, hands down.

[Ronald Loui]

I am really starting to like this LATimes Blog (and hello to anyone who knew Jenny and her journalist heavyweight dad, Robert C. Toth...).

I don't agree completely with your characterization of Obama last night, but it's at least a fair-minded account from people who don't seem to have an agenda. CNN deserves all its criticism.

I think CNN's producer Ms. Lauren Kornreich nixed my blog comment, which was quite tame, and pasted below. Just as good, or better, to use as a comment here, I think. One more boo for CNN, though I am ashamed of my fellow Democrats for their booing, and somewhat puzzled why Blitzer didn't take more control of his live audience.

---------------

At least Wolf B didn't call him "Obama bin Laden" again... OUCH. How
can you stand up and moderate a debate after that gaffe?

I thought it was hilarious that Biden was grinning and shaking his
head as Hillary tried to declare her respect for each of her
colleagues on the stage with a straight face.

I thought it was sad when Obama, in his seat, had to listen to
Clinton's dwindling response to his powerful remark, "I didn't say Hillary
couldn't unite this country. I just said I could do it better..." I
honestly felt that it was a mortal blow, and Obama was not happy
having to deliver it. Et tu, Brutus? Obama's comments were not even
critical -- it was the Blitzer question itself, on her alleged
divisiveness -- that stuck like a knife.

I haven't seen self-confidence deflated so quickly since George W.
Bush first learned that there really was global warming. Don't
Hillary's people prepare her for answering the "divisiveness"
question?

---------------------

Seriously, I always thought it a shame that the LA Times editors changed course a few years ago and decided not to compete with the NYTimes for national leadership. I kinda thought the LA Times was winning. Maybe I am too idealistic when trying to pick a favorite...

[Lucius Fieldon]

I am looking for the statements that Joe biden made about why the price of oil runnibg toward $100.00 per barrel because of the rhetoric toward Iran.

Ans:
(If he said it in the Las Vegas debate, it should be in the transcript here:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0711/15/se.02.html

[jer]

There were a few unsettling things in this debate. Coming from a independent conservative who thinks we need a change. I watched the debate.

I believe that the debate was rigged in Hillary's direction. Softball questions like the one about the "boy's club" was more or less a chance for Hillary to cover up the fact she pulled the sex card. She wasn't pushed on her "No" answer after double speaking two weeks ago. The constant cheering for every little thing she said was annoying. And what the heck is up with "pearls or diamonds"...get out of here.

In my opinion, Obama had a heck of a chance to drop Hillary down a notch or two if he had come out swinging when she claimed they were attacking her because "she is in the lead". He could have stood up and said, "were in the lead until two weeks ago when Americans began to see what her views are really like". Slam dunk, nothing but net.... but it is something i can only dream about now. He waffled the Driver's license question badly and he should have been more than prepared for that question. No excuse for that.

Edwards came off looking pretentious. Always talking past his time and making longer than needed answers.

I personally thought the two strongest people of the night were Biden and Kucinich.

Unfortunately, Kucinich is a nut.

Biden was for the most part, straight to the point and didn't double speak.

The way CNN hosted this debate and the post-debate show was pathetic. They should make a public apology, but that's another dream.

[portlandval]

This CNN debate was a Hillary Clinton rescue mission, not an objective give--and-take over issues. Give me a break! People watching from home were appalled at what was allowed to occur during questionning. . . Constant interruption from the Wolfman... People in the audience who can't remember their scripted lines, and a young woman who is told her real question is too hard edged and given a jewelry question as a replacement. YIKES> are Americans really this dumb? I guess we'll find out. This is what happens when big corporations buy up all media outlets. I guess the new CNN motto should be, "let our audience eat cake!"

[Bert]

Go Dennis! Light em up! Light em up! Go Dennis, Go Dennis! All the way
to the Oval Office, and ask for the keys! Reform doesn't have to HURT,
but somebody's gotta start somewhere, and I think a Kucinich administration
would be able to apply a lot of eco-friendly cleanser to some much-needed
dark and dirty corners. Can't have mildew(or mildont, in this case)
accumulating in the House(or the Senate).

[Sarah]

Sure, the other candidates might be going after Hillary because she's in the lead, but I think that it's really because everything she says is scripted and her words constantly contradict her other words and actions. Why is everyone so into Hillary? What does she even stand for? She's the least honest person up there. I think she's in the lead simply because she's the most well-known and people somehow translate her years living in the white house into experience. To me, she's just so slimy and disingenuous. It amazes me how people just totally ignore all her screw-ups and continue to support her, but I guess that's just a Clinton-trait. If any of the other candidiates (esp. 2nd tier) made the slip-ups, vague statements, and flip-flops that she has, they would've been immediately crossed off of people's lists a long time ago.

I must say though, I thought the booing was also just a reaction to the constant mudslinging, as a way of saying "Stop the same old name-calling and stick to the issues. We don't want to hear about it anymore." And that diamond and pearls question was the tackiest thing I've ever heard in my life. It's like asking Obama if he prefers boxers or briefs.

I'm an independent and personally I think Biden would make the best president out of all of the candidates, Republican and Democrat. Too bad the media determines our candidates for us.