Police release transcript of Sen. Craig's interview

Although he later pled guilty to a misdemeanor disorderly conduct charge, at no point during the police interrogation of Sen. Larry Craig in the Minneapolis airport did the Idahoan admit to wrongdoing. In fact, he seemed in more of a hurry to catch his plane.

According to a transcript of the interview released today between Sgt. Dave Karsnia and Craig, the senator accused the officer of entrapment. "You solicited me," said Craig. An audio version of the tape is available here.

"O.K., we're going to get, we're going to get into that," replied the officer.

After reading the senator his rights, Karsnia asked for his account. "I sit down to go to the bathroom," said Craig, "and you said our feet bumped. I believe they did because I reached down and scooted over and the next thing I knew under the bathroom divider comes a card that says Police. Now that's about as far as I can take it. I don't know of anything else. Your foot came toward mine, mine came towards yours. Was that natural? I don't know. Did we bump? Yes, I think we did. You said so. I don't disagree with that."

"O.K.," replied the officer, "I don't want to get into a pissing match here."

Craig: "We're not going to."

Karsnia: "Good."

Craig: "I don't, I'm not gay. I don't do these kinds of things and..."

Karsnia: "It doesn't matter. I don't care about sexual preference or anything like that."

Craig: "I know you don't. You're out to enforce the law."

Karsnia: "Right."

Craig: "But you shouldn't be out to entrap people either."

Karsnia: "This isn't entrapment."

Craig: "Allright."

The officer appeared to grow impatient. "You're skipping some parts," he said. "What about your hand?"

Craig said he reached down to pick up a piece of paper. "Well," replied the officer, "you're...

not being truthful with me. I'm kinda disappointed in you, Senator. I'm real disappointed in you right now."

Later, Karsnia adds, "I will say every person I've had so far has told me the truth. We've been respectful to each other and then they've gone their way. And I've never had to bring anybody to jail because everybody's been truthful to me."

Craig: "I don't want you to take me to jail."

Karsnia: "I'm not gonna take you to jail as long as you're cooperative but I'm not gonna lie."

Craig: "Did my hand come below the divider? Yes, it did."

"We deal with a lot of people that are very bad people," says the officer. "You're not a bad person."

"No," Craig replied, "I don't think I am."

Karsnia: "O.K, so what I'm telling you, I don't want to be lied to."

Craig: "O.K."

Karsnia: "O.K., so we'll start over. You're gonna get out of here. You're gonna have to pay a fine and that will be it. O.K. I don't call media. I don't do any of that type of crap."

Craig: "Fine."

The officer then seeks to have Craig tell his story again. The senator says he stood outside the officer's toilet stall because he was waiting for another to open up.

There's a lengthy dispute about which hand Craig reached under the divider with, the officer claiming he could see the senator's wedding band so it was the left. The senator maintained otherwise.

Karsnia: "You travel through here frequently, correct?"

Craig: "Almost weekly."

Karsnia: "Have you been successful in these bathrooms before?"

Craig: "I go to that bathroom regularly."

Karsnia: "I mean for any type of other activities."

Craig: "No. Absolutely not. I don't seek activity in bathrooms."

Karsnia: "It's embarrassing."

Craig: "Well, it's embarrassing for both...I'm not going to fight you."

Karsnia: "I know you're not going to fight me. But that's not the point...I don't disrespect you, but I'm disrespected right now and I'm not trying to act like I have all kinds of power or anything, but you're sitting here lying to a police officer."

At another point the officer appears exasperated with Craig's story. "I guess," he says, "I'm gonna say I'm just disappointed in you, sir. I'm just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. I mean, people vote for you."

Craig: "Yes, they do."

Karsnia: "Unbelievable. Unbelievable."

Craig: "I'm a respectable person and I don't do these kinds of..."

Unable to get the senator to admit he reached under with his left hand, the officer asks if Craig had his wedding band on his right hand at any time that day?

Craig: "Of course not, try to get it off. Look at it."

Karsnia: "O.K. then it was your left hand. I saw it with my own eyes."

Craig: "All right, you saw something that didn't happen."

Karsnia: "Embarrassing. Embarrassing. No wonder why we're going down the tubes. Anything to add?"

Craig: "Uh, no."

Karsnia: "Embarrassing. Date is 6/11/07 at 12:36. Interview is done."

--Andrew Malcolm

Comments

[Outer limits]

I think this is hilarious. Not because it embarasses Repubs, though that is icing on the cake. But because I think it is so funny fof a grown man to be in such denial about his sexuality.

"I'm not gay. I don't do these kinds of things..."

Uh, yes you are and yes you do. Repeatedly.

[People for the Ehtical Treatment of People]

I am disgusted that the Minneapolis police have nothing better to do than entrap grown men in public restrooms. I am disgusted that a police officer is argumentatively judging the morality of a "suspect" who's crime was apparently to shuffle his feet and put his hand under the divider. One wonders why the senator was picking up toilet paper, but who knows, he could have OCD? There is certainly reasonable doubt here, and the officer was more interested in threatening and intimidating and judging the senator than in policing any criminal behavior.

I hate hypocritical, anti-gay, born-again, judgmental conservative politicians, especially when they work for the police department that my tax dollars pay for. This police officer is way out of control, and should be reassigned to prevent a teenager from being shot or stabbed, or a grandmother from being assaulted, or an innocent woman from being raped. The fact that the police department released this transcript is the most disgusting aspect of this case. They have ruined a political career (for my taste good riddance), in order to publicly justify their entrapment operation.

We can't have our public restrooms used for sex because people might want to go in there and simply use the bathroom without witnessing a sexual encounter. But where is out sense of priority? Where is our sense of fairness? Where is our sense of dignity?

How about posting a sign: "This bathroom is being observed so as to prevent socially unacceptable behavior from occurring Engagement in illegal acts will result in incarceration." How about a publicly placed camera, where one officer can cost-effectively observe several restrooms and dispatch officers if folks are breaking the law.

The thought of a single officer being asked to sit in stalls all day waiting for people to drop their hands below the stall divider or shuffle their feet is just flat out disgusting to me, and reflects more our pitifully proper Puritan origins than anything having to do with law and order.

[Michael]

I listened to the tape of the interview with the police officer and Craig. On the one hand, I agree with the previous poster who criticized the police for setting up this sting. I mean, give me a break, do they have nothing better to do? But while listening to the interview I was struck by how Craig seems to know what all this foot bumping and hand waving means, because he goes to great lengths to deny the behavior. I happen to be straight and never have tried to pick up someone in a rest room. If the officer had been asking me his questions, I would have been confused about why my foot bumping his or my hand reaching down mattered because I would have no idea that these are some sort of sexual signals. Craig seems to be well aware of what these behaviors mean. He never once questions why the alleged behaviors are a problem. Hmmmmm.

[jb]

Here we go again. The republicans will crucify this poor guy, and then apply another carefully timed smokescreen right before elections ("dont let the homo's marry" [and while you are worried about the homos, please ignore the minor detail that we spent a trillion $ on a hopeless war and trashed the country])

[Mark]

"I am disgusted that the Minneapolis police have nothing better to do than entrap grown men in public restrooms."

I'm disgusted by it too, but I will defend the Minneapolis Police Department, because I know they would never waste their time on something like this. It was the Minneapolis AIRPORT Police who did this - a bunch of glorified security guards, really. There's a big difference between the city police and the airport police; they are 2 entirely separate entities.

[DB]

While it is a sad affair that our Police Officers have to hang out in public restrooms. But what is MUCH worse is grown men hanging out in public restrooms to have sex. Being a homosexual doesn't make you a pervert, but having sex in public bathrooms that children and others use DOES MAKE YOU A PERVERT!! I really don't care what you do in privacy, but I am fed up with perverts. Stay off the beaches, out of the public bathrooms, and away from the schools.

[John]

Irregardless of what the Senator may or may not have wanted to do, can you really be arrested for tapping your feet in a bathroom stall and "maybe" bumping the foot of someone in the stall next to you? What law was broken? Am I to worry about my feet sliding or tapping while using public restrooms?? Get real!!!!

[LP Beron]

What makes you think the police have nothing better to do, or that it's not being done because of this?

I think this IS one of the things police should be doing, especially since this sting apparently
came as a result of complaints by people who use the men's room for its intended purpose.

I'd like to be able to use a public bathroom without being solicited for sex.

This ain't about being gay, this is about deviants who like the thrill of "stranger sex" where they might get caught
and/or the prostitutes who service them.

[Nathan]

Interesting thoughts here. I would be disgusted if I walked into a public bathroom and any of this kind of behavior were occurring. And its not about a gay thing - it would be disgusting male to male, male to female, female to female or whatever configuration. Lots of people pass through these restrooms that don't want to sit down and listen to some strangers getting it on in the adjacent stall. Some of those people are children - it's not an adults only restroom.

The "sting" doesn't seem to me to be about "pitifully proper Puritanism" - that's law enforcement likely responding to numerous complaints. Honestly, judging by the officer's verbiage on the transcript, it doesn't sound like they sent their ace in there, anyway. Law enforcement probably begrudgingly did their duty in this case. A captain skimmed his roster for who he could spare and decided to send a team of sophomore officers in there for a day or two.

Hey, the signs sound like a decent idea, but it's absurd to assail the general public, even in a more conservative locale like Minnesota, for having a reasonable expectation of decency.

[New Mexico Retiree]

I have been busted three times for lewd conduct in public
restrooms and can relate to Senator Craig's anger. But
now that I am an older, wiser and, after much therapy,
out-of the-closet gay man, I have taken my act out of
the public sector.

Cruising public toilets is an art form known only to gays
and closeted curious men (perhaps like Senator Craig).
Straight folks enter a public restroom to do their duty,
wash their hands and leave. A heavy gay clientele can
cause long lines at the stalls and urinals and make
non-gays nervous. Placing cameras in public restrooms
would never get by the ACLU and probably not even
the Homeland Security Office. The safest way is to
"get a room."

As far as undercover city police trying to entice
gay men in public restrooms, it should not be legal.
Businesses, airports, and other public places should
do their own surveillance and policing.

[Mike]

I'm heartened to find the typical ruses, so effective in politics, have no effect on the officer here. It's disgusting to hear a grown adult (senator no less) behaving this way (and I'm only referring to the interview!)

He (the officer) seems to be totally immune to politician-speak. I listened to the tape twice! I was dissappointed LAT didn't post the full transcript or audio. As I understand from quotes elsewhere it gets even better!

Great job MPD!

(Ans: The item contains links to 1) the full news story 2) the audio tape and 3) the actual transcript.-AM)

[Michael]

By the way, I should clarify. I personally don't care if Craig is gay and if he picks up men in restrooms, bars, on the street or anywhere else. What I object to is his flagrant hypocrisy.

[pedro K-town]

Micheal I agree with you,if that sort of thing happened to me where A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER TRY TO ENTRAP ME like that I would have know idea how a GAY person would ACT!

[Al Bundy]

What you short bus riding morons don't realize, is that the officer was doing his job. Why do police enforce vice laws in public restrooms? Because they're charged with that duty by statute. Society says no sex in public places, and that includes restrooms. This isn't the officer's fault. This is the fault of a dirty old man.

[pedro K-town]

Sen. Craig is probably Bi Sexual! I think that he got entraped but HE GOT CAUGHT! Those few bad flies in the Republican Party!

[steb]

No straight man in his right mind would ever admit he is gay or committed a gay act if he wasnt especially if it was a legal matte..
He had 2 months to enter a plea of guilt or non guilt and to hire an attorney to help him fight this...the fact that he starts saying he is not gay and doesnt do these kinds of things says he knows exactly why and what he is getting busted for.How else would he know that foot tapping etc were signals for gay sex in public bathrooms?????

[Minnesota until the forever]

People for the Ehtical Treatment of People-
Shut up. Minneapolis police was doing what it had to do. Senator Craig shouldn't be engaging in sexual acts in a bathroom.

"This bathroom is being observed so as to prevent socially unacceptable behavior from occurring Engagement in illegal acts will result in incarceration." That's the worst idea ever. Minnesota may be close to perfect but it still needs money for BUILDING BRIDGES and other various projects.

I don't dislike gay people but just because you're gay doesn't mean you have special rights; like using a bathroom for sexual encounters. Same goes for Senators!

[Jesse]

US Senators should be moral examples for the country, not having gay sex in public restrooms where children or parents changing diapers might be present.

[Scott Spencer]

It could be a public gray-area issue like someone defending themselves against marijuana usage, breast-feeding, jaywalking, etc. However, the idea of public places for sexual encounters violates the American moral fabric of decency. Catch a flight to Amsterdam if you want to let it all hang out, lol

[Joanne]

Craig was not entrapped. He did what he was accused of doing.
However, if Americans were not so afraid of homosexuality, there would be no policeman in the bathroom for Senator Craig or anyone else to solicit. Senator Craig could have gone anywhere to meet a consenting adult without fear. I suspect Senator Craig is bi-sexual, because his marriage seems to be a happy one.
It is the strange, up tight Americans that have caused this situation, not Senator Craig. He tried to make it go away; I can understand. Sex is the all American Hang Up, and distorts all of American life.
Consenting adults should be able to have sex as they see fit, as long as there is a "safe word" so nobody is injured. It is nobody else's business. The code that Senator Craig used was designed to not offend a disinterested person. The officer should have said, "I'm not interested".
He should not resign, and nobody should call for his resignation.

[Paloma]

Senator (wide-stance) Craig - is a member of the GOP - Gay Old Pervert party.

[clwisdom]

I would like to know exactly what LAW Senator Craig pled guilty to. There is no law that says you must keep your hands five inches from the side of the stall, and your feet away from it as well. So I am confused as to what exactly the airport police arrested Sen. Craig for. Just because those motions happen to be used as signals does not make them inherently against any law. Am I going to be sued for inadvertently making a sign, scratching the wrong side of my nose or bumping the wrong elbow of the person washing hands next to me? Well, if I verbally propositioned one of those people--that's clearly harrassment--not just MIGHT, it is.

I am also astounded at the absolute stupidity of Sen. Craig pleading guilty to disorderly conduct. He was pleading guilty to something the police absolutely could not prove. Period. And this says something so very very sad about him--that his guilty mind, and his judgmental party, told him he was doing something very bad, and the last thing he could handle was for even the whisper of this to get out. That is just so so sad. Senator Craig is not a wise man, not a quick-thinking man, and I am not sorry to no longer be represented by someone who so quickly turns into a deer in the headlights. But his party is so horribly judgmental that they simply exacerbate the situation. The idea that Sen. Craig would need to rely on some anonymous bathroom to get a little satisfaction in his life is just icky. He ought to be able to be comfortable with who he is, what he is. Someone who is more integrated as an individual has more energy left over to deal with the needs of his state and his nation.

The airport police's hasty arrest of Senator Craig, before he ever stepped over the line, is too much Big Brother. Senator Craig's response to the arrest is just Too Stupid.

[Jack]

Boy, I sure will sleep well tonight knowing our police are busy sitting on toilet seats waiting for someone to show signs of cruising in a restroom. It's questionable whether you can get an officer to show up in your neighborhood is someone is being robbed, raped, or murdered, but hey...go into a bathroom stall and start tapping your feet, and there will be a SWAT team waiting to pin you to the ground. Bless our legal system for keeping us all safe from harm.

[Army Vet]

I have read the so-called "interview several times. It seems to me that the officer is very unprofessional in his "questionning." He threatens Craig with arrest unless he "answers truthfully!!!" Frankly I have never solicited homosexual sex, nor would I want to, but it is not that unusual to pick up a piece of paper off the floor, touch the shoe of the next occupant, etc. The officer admits he has no respect for Sen. Craig. I wonder if the encounter to get him wasn't planned in advance, since Craig flies through Minneapolis regularly.

[Don Anez]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. All Senator Craig has to do is say he wasn't after a sexual encounter as he understood what a sexual encounter is supposed to mean. After all, it really isn't sex unless there's penetration . A former President once said it and I believed him along with the committee designed to impeach him. Don't see why this ploy couldn't work for a Senator as well as a President. Do you?