McCain, Obama discuss education

The last question in the final presidential campaign debate was about education, and it gave voters their best chance yet to hear what John McCain and Barack Obama might do -- or not -- for the nation's schools. Education is, of course, primarily a local function in the United States, so presidents rarely have much impact on schools. Still, there are exceptions -- the most recent and obvious being President Bush and his No Child Left Behind program. That came up, not surprisingly, in the candidates' debate answers, with Obama calling it "a bunch of unfunded mandates," and McCain describing it as "a great beginning."

Both candidates spoke out in favor of charter schools -- no surprise there. Obama made the curious statement that "I doubled the number of charter schools in Illinois," imputing that he possesses unilateral powers wielded by few other state legislators or members of Congress. The two tangled a bit over vouchers, which McCain supports. McCain praised a voucher program in Washington, D.C., and said the local superintendent supports vouchers. Obama corrected him, saying she "actually supports charters." (The Washington Post says the superintendent, Michelle Rhee, has actually not stated a position on vouchers, although she has described McCain as being the stronger candidate on education.)

Keep reading to see the entire transcript, courtesy of Congressional Quarterly.

-- Mitchell Landsberg

SCHIEFFER: Let's stop there, because I want to get in a question on education and I'm afraid this is going to have to be our last question, gentlemen.

The question is this: The U.S. spends more per capita than any other country on education. Yet, by every international measurement, in math and science competence, from kindergarten through the 12th grade, we trail most of the countries of the world.

The implications of this are clearly obvious. Some even say it poses a threat to our national security.

Do you feel that way and what do you intend to do about it?

The question to Senator Obama first.

OBAMA: This probably has more to do with our economic future than anything and that means it also has a national security implication, because there's never been a nation on earth that saw its economy decline and continued to maintain its primacy as a military power. So we've got to get our education system right. Now, typically, what's happened is that there's been a debate between more money or reform, and I think we need both.

In some cases, we are going to have to invest. Early childhood education, which closes the achievement gap, so that every child is prepared for school, every dollar we invest in that, we end up getting huge benefits with improved reading scores, reduced dropout rates, reduced delinquency rates.

I think it's going to be critically important for us to recruit a generation of new teachers, an army of new teachers, especially in math and science, give them higher pay, give them more professional development and support in exchange for higher standards and accountability.

And I think it's important for us to make college affordable. Right now, I meet young people all across the country who either have decided not to go to college or if they're going to college, they are taking on $20,000, $30,000, $50,000, $60,000 worth of debt, and it's very difficult for them to go into some fields, like basic research in science, for example, thinking to themselves that they're going to have a mortgage before they even buy a house.

And that's why I've proposed a $4,000 tuition credit, every student, every year, in exchange for some form of community service, whether it's military service, whether it's Peace Corps, whether it's working in a community.

If we do those things, then I believe that we can create a better school system.

But there's one last ingredient that I just want to mention, and that's parents. We can't do it just in the schools. Parents are going to have to show more responsibility. They've got to turn off the TV set, put away the video games, and, finally, start instilling that thirst for knowledge that our students need.

SCHIEFFER: Senator McCain?

MCCAIN: Well, it's the civil rights issue of the 21st century. There's no doubt that we have achieved equal access to schools in America after a long and difficult and terrible struggle.

But what is the advantage in a low income area of sending a child to a failed school and that being your only choice?

So choice and competition amongst schools is one of the key elements that's already been proven in places in like New Orleans and New York City and other places, where we have charter schools, where we take good teachers and we reward them and promote them.

And we find bad teachers another line of work. And we have to be able to give parents the same choice, frankly, that Senator Obama and Mrs. Obama had and Cindy and I had to send our kids to the school -- their kids to the school of their choice. Charter schools aren't the only answer, but they're providing competition. They are providing the kind of competitions that have upgraded both schools -- types of schools.

Now, throwing money at the problem is not the answer. You will find that some of the worst school systems in America get the most money per student.

So I believe that we need to reward these good teachers.

MCCAIN: We need to encourage programs such as Teach for America and Troops to Teachers where people, after having served in the military, can go right to teaching and not have to take these examinations which -- or have the certification that some are required in some states.

Look, we must improve education in this country. As far as college education is concerned, we need to make those student loans available. We need to give them a repayment schedule that they can meet. We need to have full student loan program for in-state tuition. And we certainly need to adjust the certain loan eligibility to inflation.

SCHIEFFER: Do you think the federal government should play a larger role in the schools? And I mean, more federal money?

OBAMA: Well, we have a tradition of local control of the schools and that's a tradition that has served us well. But I do think that it is important for the federal government to step up and help local school districts do some of the things they need to do.

Now we tried to do this under President Bush. He put forward No Child Left Behind. Unfortunately, they left the money behind for No Child Left Behind. And local school districts end up having more of a burden, a bunch of unfunded mandates, the same kind of thing that happened with special education where we did the right thing by saying every school should provide education to kids with special needs, but we never followed through on the promise of funding, and that left local school districts very cash-strapped.

So what I want to do is focus on early childhood education, providing teachers higher salaries in exchange for more support. Senator McCain and I actually agree on two things that he just mentioned.

Charter schools, I doubled the number of charter schools in Illinois despite some reservations from teachers unions. I think it's important to foster competition inside the public schools.

And we also agree on the need for making sure that if we have bad teachers that they are swiftly -- after given an opportunity to prove themselves, if they can't hack it, then we need to move on because our kids have to have their best future.

Where we disagree is on the idea that we can somehow give out vouchers -- give vouchers as a way of securing the problems in our education system. And I also have to disagree on Senator McCain's record when it comes to college accessibility and affordability.

Recently his key economic adviser was asked about why he didn't seem to have some specific programs to help young people go to college and the response was, well, you know, we can't give money to every interest group that comes along.

I don't think America's youth are interest groups, I think they're our future. And this is an example of where we are going to have to prioritize. We can't say we're going to do things and then not explain in concrete terms how we're going to pay for it.

And if we're going to do some of the things you mentioned, like lowering loan rates or what have you, somebody has got to pay for it. It's not going to happen on its own.

SCHIEFFER: What about that, Senator?

MCCAIN: Well, sure. I'm sure you're aware, Senator Obama, of the program in the Washington, D.C., school system where vouchers are provided and there's a certain number, I think it's a thousand and some and some 9,000 parents asked to be eligible for that.

Because they wanted to have the same choice that you and I and Cindy and your wife have had. And that is because they wanted to choose the school that they thought was best for their children.

And we all know the state of the Washington, D.C., school system. That was vouchers. That was voucher, Senator Obama. And I'm frankly surprised you didn't pay more attention to that example.

Now as far as the No Child Left Behind is concerned, it was a great first beginning in my view. It had its flaws, it had its problems, the first time we had looked at the issue of education in America from a nationwide perspective. And we need to fix a lot of the problems. We need to sit down and reauthorize it.

But, again, spending more money isn't always the answer. I think the Head Start program is a great program. A lot of people, including me, said, look, it's not doing what it should do. By the third grade many times children who were in the Head Start program aren't any better off than the others.

Let's reform it. Let's reform it and fund it. That was, of course, out-of-bounds by the Democrats. We need to reform these programs. We need to have transparency. We need to have rewards. It's a system that cries out for accountability and transparency and the adequate funding.

And I just said to you earlier, town hall meeting after town hall meeting, parents come with kids, children -- precious children who have autism. Sarah Palin knows about that better than most. And we'll find and we'll spend the money, research, to find the cause of autism. And we'll care for these young children. And all Americans will open their wallets and their hearts to do so.

MCCAIN: But to have a situation, as you mentioned in our earlier comments, that the most expensive education in the world is in the United States of America also means that it cries out for reform, as well.

And I will support those reforms, and I will fund the ones that are reformed. But I'm not going to continue to throw money at a problem. And I've got to tell you that vouchers, where they are requested and where they are agreed to, are a good and workable system. And it's been proven.

OBAMA: I'll just make a quick comment about vouchers in D.C. Senator McCain's absolutely right: The D.C. school system is in terrible shape, and it has been for a very long time. And we've got a wonderful new superintendent there who's working very hard with the young mayor there to try...

MCCAIN: Who supports vouchers.

OBAMA: ... who initiated -- actually, supports charters.

MCCAIN: She supports vouchers, also.

OBAMA: But the -- but here's the thing, is that, even if Senator McCain were to say that vouchers were the way to go -- I disagree with him on this, because the data doesn't show that it actually solves the problem -- the centerpiece of Senator McCain's education policy is to increase the voucher program in D.C. by 2,000 slots.

That leaves all of you who live in the other 50 states without an education reform policy from Senator McCain.

So if we are going to be serious about this issue, we've got to have a president who is going to tackle it head-on. And that's what I intend to do as president.

SCHIEFFER: All right.

MCCAIN: Because there's not enough vouchers; therefore, we shouldn't do it, even though it's working. I got it.

SCHIEFFER: All right.

Comments

[amandra thomas]

i think that obama should be president he has more understanding in what is happening in this community. mccain he understands half of what's going on. obama will make sure this country will go to the top and stay there. mccain he's going to make problem for this community.obama stand on the important things he will take advice for the people,he will make sure this that we call the united states be a better place.mccain he will make sure taxes increase.

[Anthony Brown]

That last line was one of McCain's more smarmy moments during the debate. Vouchers are limited and No Child Left Behind is a sad and terrible law that should have parents, teachers and admin rioting. I can't imagine McCain doing anything to improve NCLB unless it means having all children exit public education via vouchers. It seems that poor school performance, in many cases, has to do with poverty. Obama seems to be the candidate best suited to focus on that issue. McCain wouldn't touch it for fear of being seen as a socialist. Wasn't Jesus a socialist? Or is that an argument that should be left to Palin?

[Web Smith]

No child left behind punished the children instead of the adults who are supposed to be educating them. The federal government is not supposed to be involved in education at all. It's supposed to be handled at the state level so we don't end up with national disasters like the one we have now.

http://ewebsmith.com/bus/wrongbusiness.html

[Katk wittig]

Mr Mc Cain si so out of touch with education. No child left behind has left may children behind. He talks of Head Start not working because by third grade they are even.. Does he think where would the children be if they didn't have a Head Start. How about this..Children leave head stqrt at age 5......duh..you're talking 3rd grade..what about the public schools..that child went to kindergarten, first grade, second grade and third..Head Start did give that child a head start..McCain better check with k,1,2,3,grade before blaming Head Start. I' d like to know how many head Starts did he visit and see how dedicated teachers are to this program. Out of touch with the real people..Head Start is a great program!

[carl]

I am not an american that is why I envy you americans for having someone like Barack Obama run for president and who now actually has a great chance of being elected into office. To me, McCain represents everything outdated, sluggish and unimaginative. Compared to Obama who is at the prime of his life and who is ready to sacrifice the rest of it for America. McCain's at his twilight years. Chances are he has nothing new to offer save for a few run-of-the-mill insights of an old man, which, unfortunately, in these times, would not be enough.

[Danielle c]

As a college student who is preparing to become an Elementary Education and Early Childhood Education professional, I am disappointed. The NCLB Act is one education issue that needs to be looked at and revised in many different ways. As a future educator, I am scared of the policies and changes that are being made in our education systems by administration that does not look at the big picture. There are other schools, districts, and states that need to be looked at also, besides just Washinton D.C. When NCLB was created was anyone looking at how it would impact South Dakota? Did anyone look at how this would implicate school districts with a high percentage of special education students? The NCLB Act allows 1% of special education students to receive assistance and different options of testing methods when taking the standardized tests, but what happens if a school district has a higher percentage of students who are special education and also needs help? How does this help those students? How does this help to show if students are academically improving? Also as a college student, when I graduate I will be $26,000 in debt. This is nothing compared to some of my collegues. We college students need help. As the future of America, I ask what are we going to really do about these issues? Who is going to help us and how?

[wayne clearners]

why did barack obama give mccain a comment while mccain is sitting there disagring on every thing obama said