Zack de la Rocha talks to Ann Powers

These days, the rock scene is low on mysterious figures. As the music has lost its countercultural edge, many of its champions have transformed into average celebrities, happy to speak into any microphone that wanders by. That’s not true of Zack de la Rocha: the Rage Against the Machine vocalist is the rare rock star who keeps his distance from the hype.

De la Rocha is as famous for his radical politics as for incendiary poetics. Between his retirement from Rage in 2000 and his recent reunion with the band, he’s limited his public appearances to the occasional rally or benefit show. His musical output has been spare too: only a few songs have seen light.

But this summer, the 38-year-old Southland native is back and seemingly unstoppable. He has a new musical project -- One Day as a Lion, which pairs him with drummer Jon Theodore. One Day as a Lion’s self-titled debut EP, on Anti- Records, hit No. 28 on the Billboard charts with minimal media attention, and is gaining traction nationally on rock radio. A full release will come in the fall.

De la Rocha has also found a way to embrace Rage again. A 2007 Coachella appearance marked the band’s return as a live unit, and its shows have become major events. Earlier this month, Rage blazed through a chaos-inspiring set at Lollapalooza in Chicago, and the band has just announced a Sept. 3 Minneapolis date, which will serve as a protest against the Republican National Convention occurring simultaneously in St. Paul.

This burst of activity has even inspired De la Rocha to break his media silence. He spoke Monday by phone about the current state of political music, his creative process, and the future of One Day as a Lion — and Rage Against the Machine. A shorter version is running in Tuesday's paper but Soundboard has the full edited interview below.

How did One Day as a Lion, your new project with drummer Jon Theodore, come about?

I’ve known Jon for several years now, and I saw some of his first performances as a member of the Mars Volta. He come from Baltimore and had been in some underground bands there, so I’d heard of him. When I did see him it was clear that music in L.A. was never going be the same now that he was here! I’ve worked with some great drummers, and have seen people try to execute those kinds of things before, but never as effortlessly and with as much feel. He exists in this realm between John Bonham and Elvin Jones. I haven’t seen drumming like that in a long time.
        So I immediately felt compelled to get to know the guy and pick his brain and find out what kind of music he was interested in. We had a lot in common. We met in jams a couple of summers ago, without the intention of making an album.
        Jon had a friend named Troy Zeigler, who now plays with Serj Tankian, and Troy had this very small rehearsal space where he would teach drum lessons. A couple of summers ago, Jon and I went in there to talk to Troy. He wasn’t there. Jon sat down on one of the student’s kits and started playing. The room was filled with random instruments - there was percussive stuff, these old 80s metal amps that hadn’t been used in ages, and a dusty Rhodes keyboard with some broken keys. I plugged in through a metal amp and ran it through this messed-up delay pedal that had a trigger on it and we immediately started playing. It felt like two people having a conversation using whatever phrases were at our disposal. We had to document it.
        We’re still using that keyboard. We had to put an old Number Two pencil and jam it into the side to keep the top on.

The EP came out without much warning and basically no hype. What was the strategy involved in releasing it that way?

I wish I could say there was a strategy involved! We felt that the collection of songs we had chosen had resonated with us and it was really something we wanted people to discover on their own. That’s been missing from music, in a way; we’ve been marketed to so much, rather than people discovering something and picking it up.
        When I heard Public Enemy for the first time, it was on the soundtrack for the movie “Less than Zero,” tucked between a Madonna song and some other ‘80s rehash. I was in a friend’s car, he put the soundtrack on and I thought, what is this junk? When it got to “Bring the Noise,” I had that kind of urgent reaction where you just had to stop what you’re doing. It sounded like breaking news.

How did the signing with Anti- come about?

I’ve known Brett [Gurewitz, Bad Religion guitarist and the labels’ founder] for years and we’ve collaborated on a few things in the past, and I appreciate his perspective on making music. He has a genuine respect for artists. I think Anti- can bring in a number of voices that wouldn’t be considered in our rigid radio format-dominated industry still. I found that appealing. And it’s kind of in the neighborhood. But they also have the ability to enable us to grow if that ends up happening. We are working on another album now. And we want to play shows and be a band and go out and start some noise.

The band’s name, One Day as a Lion, hints that this might not be a long-lived project. Am I reading that right?

No! This is not simply a burst of energy. We are going to be making records and writing songs. We’re still in the process of forming as a band -- we need a keyboard player, I’m not good enough to do it all myself -- so that will be rectified soon.       
        The name speaks about a generation of people, a kind of development that I feel. It’s an intuition about people who aren’t going to be so concerned about elections to get what they need. And whose politics aren’t going to revolve around a bourgeois morality. Their interests are going to be focused on food and housing and justice and revenge. And without going too far into that, that’s an intuition that I had.

Why is there no guitar in these new songs?

I’ve always wanted to experiment with sounds that could provide a kind of tension, something you can’t avoid. When I first heard the sirens and high sax squeals of hip hop in the late 80s, I was drawn to creating those textures. With this new music, it’s wasn’t a choice not to use guitars so much as the spontaneity of that moment when Jon and I got together, regardless of the instrumentation. We wanted to produce a sound that was much larger than what you’d think it could be.

You’ve worked with many collaborators since leaving Rage, including Trent Reznor and DJ Shadow. Did what you learned from those experiments factor into ODAAL?

To an extent it did, and it didn’t. When I left Rage… first off, I was very heartbroken, and secondly, I became obsessed with completely reinventing my wheel. In an unhealthy way, to a degree. I kind of forgot that old way of allowing yourself to just be a conduit. When I was working with Trent and Shadow, I felt that I was going through the motions. Not that what was produced wasn’t great, but I feel now that I’ve maybe reinvented the base sounds that emanate from the songs. But I’m still doing what I feel I do well, while looking for a more minimal sound.

The first ODAAL single is called “Wild International.” That implies a global politics from the get go. How does your work fit into that scenario?

Before we get into the larger thing, that song is a response to the way we saw the U.S. government try to reframe the conflicts of the world. Particularly when the Soviet Union had collapsed, there was no way to subject the country to the kind of fear needed to justify what I consider to be an ill distribution of wealth. After 9/11 you could see that reframing taking place. The specter of Communism no longer haunted the U.S., justifying its actions in Latin America and all over the world. What filled that void were Al Qaeda and the Muslim world in general. That song is, in an abstract way, addressing the way the right has distracted people from this huge rush of wealth from the bottom to the top.
        Beyond that, I’m speaking toward a deeper sentiment that I feel and I know a lot of people feel. Most of the songs have to do with redemptive moments that come in the face of some real indignity. And that’s the current that I’m trying to tap into, because I think that for a lot of people -- for the real participants who live in the shadows and work at car washes and are forced to cross the border and are struggling and facing the real economic consequences -- they’re often left out off the debate because of the language they speak or even the terminology that they use.
        So it stems from my own frustration. It stems from seeing how things have been developing politically, and watching so much dissatisfaction and people very upset about the way the country is going. And watching all of that frustration steered back into a more traditional political process. The problems stem far deeper than anything that Brother Obama can address, and eventually people are going to have to respond.
        I think maybe like a conduit for that expression. I have those same feelings too. I’m a Mexicano growing up in that colonized Southwest. I’m an artist, but I didn’t grow up wealthy.

On the surface, some of these new songs seem very anti-religious, including the single.

I don’t see it as an anti-religious song. I see it as the West has been using Christianity as a way to justify its actions when in reality, those figures, Christ and Muhammad, were rebels. These two religious figures have been co-opted to justify power, although they fought against the abuses of power and the expansion of empire. It’s almost like, what would Christ and Muhammad do?

What do you think of the state of political art now? Sometimes it seems to have really died down, what with a mainstream full of teen pop and reality television.

I’m listening to things all the time. There have been eight years of the Bush administration and the decline of real wages, and people are responding all the time. It’s unfortunate that more conscious artists or political artists in general haven’t been heard in the mainstream. But I think back to when I was going to hardcore shows and I saw the Bad Brains, those moments resonate and are life-altering moments. Those people who were at those shows have become artists or activists as a result of having their perspective shifted. During the 1980s when punk was seen as unviable or dangerous, or threatening to the music industry, those voices went underground and created their own networks and vehicles for producing what they produced. It did create a very politicized generation. So I don’t necessarily feel that music within the mainstream is always an indication of the political frustrations that exist beneath the surface.
        I’ve traveled back and forth between here and Mexico a lot, especially since the Zapatista uprising in 1994. The Rand Corporation did this study about how the Zapatistas were able to create such an international presence and have their experiences and the objectives of the rebellion outlined for so many people worldwide, and how that was responsible for fending off a more direct military action against the communities. It had a lot to do with the Internet. Whether you’re interested in change and growing up in the Lacandon jungle, or whether you’re young here and watching these horrors unfold in Iraq and Afghanistan, we now have the tools to provide a countervoice.

One line jumped out at me, from the title track -- “If L.A. were Baghdad, we’d be Iraqi.”

In one sense, that line about one of those redemptive moments that run through the whole EP. But I’m also making a comparison between the expansion of U.S. power into Iraq and Afghanistan and the history of the Southwest, which has been erased. There’s a very close relationship between what happened in Fallujah and what happened at the Alamo.
        When settlers fleeing the South after the Civil War came into San Antonio, primarily because they wanted to practice slavery, an altercation took place and James Polk used it as an excuse to invade, to fulfill Manifest Destiny in the Southwest, which is really a misnomer -- this is really Northeastern Mexico.
        In Fallujah, there were Blackwater mercenaries, and U.S. soldiers taking over schools and using them as a military base in the interest of Exxon Mobil. And the students and their parents reacted by staging a protest. Several students were killed. The U.S. used that as a pretext to go in and decimate Fallujah. I’m exploring that in the song.

How do those two elements of your own life -- activism and music-making -- intersect or diverge now?

I don’t think the separation is valid, especially in these times. For me, the only time that that line gets drawn when you’re producing music and you’re trying to flush out a certain idea -- that’s very liberating, in a very abstract way. It’s in those moments where you feel free, and you can go ahead and explore why you feel free in those moments. In the past moments with Shadow and Trent I didn’t feel that.
        Participating in the Son Jarocho work [his activist work with urban farmers in South Central Los Angeles, which included playing folk music with the group Son de Madera] felt more community based, more collective. I was part of a collective voice and not on my own as an artist, and something about that attracted me.
        It’s so funny; I’ve read a couple things someone said that there were bets being placed on who would finish their album first, Axl Rose or me. One joke was that Axl was calling his record “Chinese Democracy,” and that there would be democracy in China by the time he finished! I laughed when I considered calling this record “American Democracy.” But I kinda spoke too soon on that!

It’s an election year here in the U.S. -- did that factor in to your decision to debut new music now?

I’d be lying if I said it was coincidental. I think that it’s an interesting moment. The lowest approval rating in the history of any presidency -- and for Congress. There’s this interesting rupture developing, and I think it’s a healthy one.
        To watch the Democrats, who were really our only institutional obstruction to this extremely rightward swing, fall in lockstep behind this new imperial fantasy that became reality -- that was a pivotal moment. A lot of people began to question the whole nature of both parties. Now more than ever, there’s a more fertile ground for artists to try to reveal the nature of both parties, who are mainly the public relations team for transnational corporations.
        Barack is clearly the most viable candidate, the most intelligent, the one with the most forward-thinking position, but I would hate to see the flames of discontent be watered down by rhetorical visions of hope and change, when historically those things have only come from immigrant workers or people fighting against segregation, or against the second class position of women. History has taught us that when it comes to ending war, it’s always been the people on the ground who’ve led the movement. Veterans who have come home and fought against the war. Iraqi kids. And artists and musicians.

You’ve been touring with Rage again. What is your relationship like with those guys now?

So much has changed. When you get older, you look back on tensions and grievances and have another perspective on it. I think our relationship now is better than it’s ever been. I would even describe it as great. We’re going to keep playing shows -- we have a couple of big ones happening in front of both conventions. As far as us recording music in the future, I don’t know where we all fit with that. We’ve all embraced each other’s projects and support them, and that’s great.

When you look out a crowd like the one you played in front of at Lollapalooza, what kind of potential do you see there?

There was this interesting thing that happened during the Clinton administration; people were looking inward and not outward, and not addressing what was going on. Rage set the political foreground for things that would come very shortly thereafter. I think people might see that what we are saying has more relevance now than when the band first came out.

Can we look forward to some live ODAAL gigs in the near future?

Definitely. I’ve always hoped that a project I was involved in could be a little more spontaneous, set up on a block and play. Me and Jon see eye to eye on doing that.

Meanwhile, as you said, Rage is playing in Minneapolis the same night the Republican convention happens in St. Paul. What do you anticipate for that show?

You’re gonna have to come and cover it. I think we both know what we expect. Good shoes would help. And you might wanna dip that bandanna in some vinegar.

Top photo courtesy of Anti-; second photo of De la Rocha playing in Scotland by Ed Jones/AFP/Getty Images

Comments

[Jose]

Zach and a BMW, sound like internet rumor-garbage to me. But let's just say it is true, let's say it's a hard true fact. Have you considered how BMW treats its workers vs. GM or Ford? Perhaps even considered that Germany has a public health care system? Have you considered that perhaps BMW over-charges Americans who are willing to buy those cars so they can support good quality jobs back in Germany (and an actual plant in South Carolina). What about he environmental standards each company follows?

Zach and Rage get paid for their art - it's their reward for influencing and inspiring people. Even if you disagree, it gives you the spark to form a coherent logical arguement, to pursue a political discussion - maybe even some self discovery. It gives them the true freedom to pursue art and give voice to important issues - while the rest of us work the 8 - 12 hours shifts that limit our involvement with society and community.

[James]

Hmmmm...it appears half of you believe Zack is a hypocrite b/c he's wearing Nike's and driving a BMW, while the other half seem to believe his revolutionary calls confirm his communist identity. It appears as though Zack has you both fooled. To believe that one cannot enjoy the merits of capitalism and then use such gain to fight injustice around the world is to deny the very real and positive effects artists like Bono, Marley, and De la Rocha continue to have. His work with Son de Madera proves he continues to keep it real while trying to earn a buck.

[sir jorge]

does it make everyone feel better to talk about the "hypocricy" in Zack's music? What car he drives etc...etc....Who among us isn't a hypocrite? Are you really typing comments from your hacked internet provider? Are you on a stolen computer? Are you not a hypocrite too?

Who cares? Who cares if Rage Against the Machine is dishonest, or if they aren't, who cares? I know one thing is certain, regardless of what you all or I think about government, politics, zack, one day as a lion, or even the LA times, I and You still have to work for a living most a 9 to 5 job that we hate.

Great interview none the less.

[Paul]

The first couple of comments are exactly why RATM and ODAAL are needed today.

Questioning Zack's heritage, as if he's not Mexican enough to be proud of that part of his background is weak. Do your homework and you'll find the truth. Until then, continue to criticize what you don't know ignorantly. Ignorance is bliss.

[Raul]

Zack's time line may be screwed up but the fact remains that President Polk used a firing incident on the banks of the Rio Grand as pretext for a war with Mexico and the subsequent hijacking of the South West through the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. There nothing revisionary about that.

[geedar]

He is rich.The people he cries for and gets all angry for are poor.He gets a paycheck and they get to put their fists in the air.Nice work if you can get it.

[Justin Goldberg]

2 million dollars is not 2 million dollars in the music industry folks: taxes, agent commission (10%), lawyer commission (5%) mgmt commission (15%) then remove all travel expenses, insurance, crew salaries, equipment, etc.
I'm the manager for a touring band (and I actually signed Rage's publishing deal back in 92 and saw their first shows - what a honor) and these kinds of posts complaining about their revenue are just IGNORANT. God bless -- JG

[jb]

Regardless of whether Zack or Rage members are rich, they have made a substantial impact on my life. How can you criticize Zach when you say nothing about the CEO of Freddy and Fannie getting 20 mil per year to run their companies into the ground. Our banking industry is in bed with politicians who are in bed with wall street and together are raping our country - our politicians should be drawn and quartered, pure and simple.

[Florencia Trese]

Ya'll stop hating, Zack.

[Giorgio]

I can't believe everyone is making such a fuss b/c de la Rocha drives a BMW and wears Nikes! What do you expect, a martyr? Let's get real, everyone seems to be crucifying DLR b/c he grew up in a "lilly-white" neighborhood in LA, HELLO can he control his past, NO. He's trying to wake people up, there's so much hypocrisy in the U. S. political system and all you bloggers are concern with is semantics and what he drives, grew up or wears.

[estaban]

I saw them at the DNC back in 2000 and while I was getting arrested, beaten to a pulp by scumbag LAPD, yelling racial slurs at our crew, RATM was coolly swept off the stage, entered their tour van and off they went, abandoning the soldiers in battle. When push comes to shove, I don't see Zack posing any real threat to the government. All they're doing is selling a lot of expensive festival tickets to middle-class jaded pseudo-anarchists. The real folks on the ground can't afford $100 Coachella tickets. Your audience is completely lost.

[Hmmm]

He makes the music, he should get the money. End of story. How do you know what he does with it? How do you know what he drives? How do you know what he wears?

You guys sound so ridiculous responding the way you do.

Go Retard Revolution!!!

[Truth addict]

yeah, great interview.
I agree with Oz and Knowledge Addict - positive thinking. and i find this blogging business is usually bitter anyway. Even if its true, I think his BMW and Nikes are justified because proportionally he's done alot more good than bad. Same goes for everyone - if you find 10 bucks give a buck to charity, if you find 10 million then give a million away. Zack's done more than his share so he can drive what he wants. And nobody knows of course, but ill bet that $2 million from Lollapollooza won't all be spent on things like cars and shoes...

Regarding the historical inaccuracies, so what, nobodies 100% anyway. And humans are hypocrites, albeit to very varying degrees. I bet you posters picking out the bad points of the interview noticed plenty of good but you just let it pass you by.

Inspired by Rage Against The Machine and glad of it. Go on Zack ya good ting!

[amobi meda]

We don't love Shakespeare for being Hamlet, Othello, or Romeo; we love Shakespeare for creating them and their worlds and thus providing a channel for us to visit a different reality in his art. We should approach artists and their work accordingly--namely, to let ourselves live in our favorite art because it makes us feel alive and not worship the consistency between the hands that work and the work those hands fashioned.

[Eric]

"When settlers fleeing the South after the Civil War came into San Antonio, primarily because they wanted to practice slavery, an altercation took place and James Polk used it as an excuse to invade, to fulfill Manifest Destiny in the Southwest, which is really a misnomer -- this is really Northeastern Mexico."

Smart guy, that Zack--Manifest Destiny and President Polk, including the Mexican American War, happened 20 years before the Civil War. I guess someone who doesn't take the time to learn history, world history, shouldn't be expected to make an intellignet, educated remark.

[Pizza Face]

The guy makes millions, and all he drives is a bimmer? I'd say that;s pretty modest people.

[Dave One]

Can't say I agree with everything Zack says but who cares. I don't agree with everything KRS One, PE, and NWA say either but I will still bump their music...

[Rene Lopez]

I think that its pretty sad that people can say all these bad things about this man not doing enough or not living up to their standards of what a rebel has to be. The question you have to ask yourselfs is "what am I doing for my own cause". Fight your own fight people and stop attacking someone who is doing the best he can with what he's got. I mean at least he's turning the spotlight on something that's relevant. Also none of you truley know him and what he does with his money, and why should it even matter. Dont put your hopes in man but in God, because man will always let you down but God will always be with you. I say this to all the people that want to burn their Rage albums. Zack is only one man and if he falls the revolution, the fight, the cause, whatever you want to call it will still be here. To put your faith into one man is dumb. The cause is always bigger than the individual. Thats whats important!!! Not what Zack drives!

Grow up people!

[SLAYER]

ALL OF U HATERS JUST TALK AND DO NOTHING ABOUT ALL THAT IS GOING ON AROUND THE WORLD, JUST REMEMBER THAT YOU KILL WITH THE SWORD,YOU WILL DIE BY THE SWORD.

[Zia]

Is 'oh I could do that" art worth more if it was completed in 1940...and used the same designs now found in every IKEA store?

Do WE as consumers of music have such a self-important world via our itunes and ipods....$$$ that hypocrisy is unavoidable?

With running water, lip balm, and food in the fridge...its rather ridiculous to be voices of a revolution or even a dis-trustful...musical audience.

If you don't like the music, don't listen...if you don't like the man....write a anti-fan letter...but why should anyone be accused of hypocrisy when the same voices are more concerned with the latest download from lime wire or .....who Obama's running mate might be...than for where their next meal might come from or where drinkable water is available.....?

We are the source of our own frustrations...more often than not.
So, before we call others that have been originators and outspoken .....Consider the seat we are speaking from.

[The Goose]

According to Marx, ZDLR should be far richer than he is...musicians are terribly exploited by record companies, no matter how much they make. Marx didn't have much to say about TOTAL INCOME, just about its distribution based on the value of the work and the role of the state in enforcing that distribution. No contradiction whatsoever in leftists enjoying the fruits of their labor, so all the haters should get over it and rid yourselves of that anachronistic, puritanical straightjacket called "The Rules Of Punk Rock".

Rage has reached more kids than a million "pure" punk/indie bandsi ever could, all the while retaining 100% artistic control over their music.

[Scott Mosher]

Wow... so Zach De La Rocha is human! He has moral fallibilities, character flaws, and imperfections. And he likes a few of the finer things in life. What high standard are we supposed to hold him to? Is he supposed to be treated as a socialist messiah? A purist of the highest order? Big deal... so he drives a beamer supposedly. I can easily separate the man, the message and the points in between. Being an advocate/activist doesn't require one to lose their soul, sense of self or humanity because you stand up for something. Having the power/status to do just that, and enjoying some of the lifestyle that you supposedly are striving against, aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I just anticipate, as always, folks who jump on those who advocate for change, and their foibles, but they themselves do nothing but stand on the sidelines, shouting insults and making disparaging remarks. There's great irony to that. The fact that ZDLR has an "adequate" lifestyle takes nothing away from his principles or political stands or record as an activist for change.

And I'm not even a huge ZDLR/RATM fan, either.

Oh, and I'm of no familia relation to the band or the dude, either.

Just saying...

;-)

[Bob Squires]

Zack makes many contributions to social justice and human rights causes. He also plays concerts where the non-profits are the beneficiaries, not Zack. Unlike many an artist, Zack is modest and does publicize his donations of money and time. If only more activist artists did the same!

[di]

I love Zach even though I probably don't agree with 50% of the things he says. (And, yet, I think of myself as progressive and Chicana). I find him to be a shallow history student and his political rhetoric is, well, ... frankly, straight-out of the 1960's. But his music, his passion and anger are revolutionary and should not be disrespected. He is a seminal and ground-breaking artist. He is not a historian. He is certainly not an interesting political philosopher. But his art is informed and shaped by all of his wild and poorly formed political ideas and whatever identity demons he appears to be struggling with. His anger is deep and it created his art and his art is a gift to the world. Thank you Zach for sharing that gift. My life is richer for it.

[marley]

RATM is NOT heavy metal...
all you anti-zack metalheads, GET LOST!!! or go listen to paris hilton or slipnot.