Zack de la Rocha talks to Ann Powers

These days, the rock scene is low on mysterious figures. As the music has lost its countercultural edge, many of its champions have transformed into average celebrities, happy to speak into any microphone that wanders by. That’s not true of Zack de la Rocha: the Rage Against the Machine vocalist is the rare rock star who keeps his distance from the hype.

De la Rocha is as famous for his radical politics as for incendiary poetics. Between his retirement from Rage in 2000 and his recent reunion with the band, he’s limited his public appearances to the occasional rally or benefit show. His musical output has been spare too: only a few songs have seen light.

But this summer, the 38-year-old Southland native is back and seemingly unstoppable. He has a new musical project -- One Day as a Lion, which pairs him with drummer Jon Theodore. One Day as a Lion’s self-titled debut EP, on Anti- Records, hit No. 28 on the Billboard charts with minimal media attention, and is gaining traction nationally on rock radio. A full release will come in the fall.

De la Rocha has also found a way to embrace Rage again. A 2007 Coachella appearance marked the band’s return as a live unit, and its shows have become major events. Earlier this month, Rage blazed through a chaos-inspiring set at Lollapalooza in Chicago, and the band has just announced a Sept. 3 Minneapolis date, which will serve as a protest against the Republican National Convention occurring simultaneously in St. Paul.

This burst of activity has even inspired De la Rocha to break his media silence. He spoke Monday by phone about the current state of political music, his creative process, and the future of One Day as a Lion — and Rage Against the Machine. A shorter version is running in Tuesday's paper but Soundboard has the full edited interview below.

How did One Day as a Lion, your new project with drummer Jon Theodore, come about?

I’ve known Jon for several years now, and I saw some of his first performances as a member of the Mars Volta. He come from Baltimore and had been in some underground bands there, so I’d heard of him. When I did see him it was clear that music in L.A. was never going be the same now that he was here! I’ve worked with some great drummers, and have seen people try to execute those kinds of things before, but never as effortlessly and with as much feel. He exists in this realm between John Bonham and Elvin Jones. I haven’t seen drumming like that in a long time.
        So I immediately felt compelled to get to know the guy and pick his brain and find out what kind of music he was interested in. We had a lot in common. We met in jams a couple of summers ago, without the intention of making an album.
        Jon had a friend named Troy Zeigler, who now plays with Serj Tankian, and Troy had this very small rehearsal space where he would teach drum lessons. A couple of summers ago, Jon and I went in there to talk to Troy. He wasn’t there. Jon sat down on one of the student’s kits and started playing. The room was filled with random instruments - there was percussive stuff, these old 80s metal amps that hadn’t been used in ages, and a dusty Rhodes keyboard with some broken keys. I plugged in through a metal amp and ran it through this messed-up delay pedal that had a trigger on it and we immediately started playing. It felt like two people having a conversation using whatever phrases were at our disposal. We had to document it.
        We’re still using that keyboard. We had to put an old Number Two pencil and jam it into the side to keep the top on.

The EP came out without much warning and basically no hype. What was the strategy involved in releasing it that way?

I wish I could say there was a strategy involved! We felt that the collection of songs we had chosen had resonated with us and it was really something we wanted people to discover on their own. That’s been missing from music, in a way; we’ve been marketed to so much, rather than people discovering something and picking it up.
        When I heard Public Enemy for the first time, it was on the soundtrack for the movie “Less than Zero,” tucked between a Madonna song and some other ‘80s rehash. I was in a friend’s car, he put the soundtrack on and I thought, what is this junk? When it got to “Bring the Noise,” I had that kind of urgent reaction where you just had to stop what you’re doing. It sounded like breaking news.

How did the signing with Anti- come about?

I’ve known Brett [Gurewitz, Bad Religion guitarist and the labels’ founder] for years and we’ve collaborated on a few things in the past, and I appreciate his perspective on making music. He has a genuine respect for artists. I think Anti- can bring in a number of voices that wouldn’t be considered in our rigid radio format-dominated industry still. I found that appealing. And it’s kind of in the neighborhood. But they also have the ability to enable us to grow if that ends up happening. We are working on another album now. And we want to play shows and be a band and go out and start some noise.

The band’s name, One Day as a Lion, hints that this might not be a long-lived project. Am I reading that right?

No! This is not simply a burst of energy. We are going to be making records and writing songs. We’re still in the process of forming as a band -- we need a keyboard player, I’m not good enough to do it all myself -- so that will be rectified soon.       
        The name speaks about a generation of people, a kind of development that I feel. It’s an intuition about people who aren’t going to be so concerned about elections to get what they need. And whose politics aren’t going to revolve around a bourgeois morality. Their interests are going to be focused on food and housing and justice and revenge. And without going too far into that, that’s an intuition that I had.

Why is there no guitar in these new songs?

I’ve always wanted to experiment with sounds that could provide a kind of tension, something you can’t avoid. When I first heard the sirens and high sax squeals of hip hop in the late 80s, I was drawn to creating those textures. With this new music, it’s wasn’t a choice not to use guitars so much as the spontaneity of that moment when Jon and I got together, regardless of the instrumentation. We wanted to produce a sound that was much larger than what you’d think it could be.

You’ve worked with many collaborators since leaving Rage, including Trent Reznor and DJ Shadow. Did what you learned from those experiments factor into ODAAL?

To an extent it did, and it didn’t. When I left Rage… first off, I was very heartbroken, and secondly, I became obsessed with completely reinventing my wheel. In an unhealthy way, to a degree. I kind of forgot that old way of allowing yourself to just be a conduit. When I was working with Trent and Shadow, I felt that I was going through the motions. Not that what was produced wasn’t great, but I feel now that I’ve maybe reinvented the base sounds that emanate from the songs. But I’m still doing what I feel I do well, while looking for a more minimal sound.

The first ODAAL single is called “Wild International.” That implies a global politics from the get go. How does your work fit into that scenario?

Before we get into the larger thing, that song is a response to the way we saw the U.S. government try to reframe the conflicts of the world. Particularly when the Soviet Union had collapsed, there was no way to subject the country to the kind of fear needed to justify what I consider to be an ill distribution of wealth. After 9/11 you could see that reframing taking place. The specter of Communism no longer haunted the U.S., justifying its actions in Latin America and all over the world. What filled that void were Al Qaeda and the Muslim world in general. That song is, in an abstract way, addressing the way the right has distracted people from this huge rush of wealth from the bottom to the top.
        Beyond that, I’m speaking toward a deeper sentiment that I feel and I know a lot of people feel. Most of the songs have to do with redemptive moments that come in the face of some real indignity. And that’s the current that I’m trying to tap into, because I think that for a lot of people -- for the real participants who live in the shadows and work at car washes and are forced to cross the border and are struggling and facing the real economic consequences -- they’re often left out off the debate because of the language they speak or even the terminology that they use.
        So it stems from my own frustration. It stems from seeing how things have been developing politically, and watching so much dissatisfaction and people very upset about the way the country is going. And watching all of that frustration steered back into a more traditional political process. The problems stem far deeper than anything that Brother Obama can address, and eventually people are going to have to respond.
        I think maybe like a conduit for that expression. I have those same feelings too. I’m a Mexicano growing up in that colonized Southwest. I’m an artist, but I didn’t grow up wealthy.

On the surface, some of these new songs seem very anti-religious, including the single.

I don’t see it as an anti-religious song. I see it as the West has been using Christianity as a way to justify its actions when in reality, those figures, Christ and Muhammad, were rebels. These two religious figures have been co-opted to justify power, although they fought against the abuses of power and the expansion of empire. It’s almost like, what would Christ and Muhammad do?

What do you think of the state of political art now? Sometimes it seems to have really died down, what with a mainstream full of teen pop and reality television.

I’m listening to things all the time. There have been eight years of the Bush administration and the decline of real wages, and people are responding all the time. It’s unfortunate that more conscious artists or political artists in general haven’t been heard in the mainstream. But I think back to when I was going to hardcore shows and I saw the Bad Brains, those moments resonate and are life-altering moments. Those people who were at those shows have become artists or activists as a result of having their perspective shifted. During the 1980s when punk was seen as unviable or dangerous, or threatening to the music industry, those voices went underground and created their own networks and vehicles for producing what they produced. It did create a very politicized generation. So I don’t necessarily feel that music within the mainstream is always an indication of the political frustrations that exist beneath the surface.
        I’ve traveled back and forth between here and Mexico a lot, especially since the Zapatista uprising in 1994. The Rand Corporation did this study about how the Zapatistas were able to create such an international presence and have their experiences and the objectives of the rebellion outlined for so many people worldwide, and how that was responsible for fending off a more direct military action against the communities. It had a lot to do with the Internet. Whether you’re interested in change and growing up in the Lacandon jungle, or whether you’re young here and watching these horrors unfold in Iraq and Afghanistan, we now have the tools to provide a countervoice.

One line jumped out at me, from the title track -- “If L.A. were Baghdad, we’d be Iraqi.”

In one sense, that line about one of those redemptive moments that run through the whole EP. But I’m also making a comparison between the expansion of U.S. power into Iraq and Afghanistan and the history of the Southwest, which has been erased. There’s a very close relationship between what happened in Fallujah and what happened at the Alamo.
        When settlers fleeing the South after the Civil War came into San Antonio, primarily because they wanted to practice slavery, an altercation took place and James Polk used it as an excuse to invade, to fulfill Manifest Destiny in the Southwest, which is really a misnomer -- this is really Northeastern Mexico.
        In Fallujah, there were Blackwater mercenaries, and U.S. soldiers taking over schools and using them as a military base in the interest of Exxon Mobil. And the students and their parents reacted by staging a protest. Several students were killed. The U.S. used that as a pretext to go in and decimate Fallujah. I’m exploring that in the song.

How do those two elements of your own life -- activism and music-making -- intersect or diverge now?

I don’t think the separation is valid, especially in these times. For me, the only time that that line gets drawn when you’re producing music and you’re trying to flush out a certain idea -- that’s very liberating, in a very abstract way. It’s in those moments where you feel free, and you can go ahead and explore why you feel free in those moments. In the past moments with Shadow and Trent I didn’t feel that.
        Participating in the Son Jarocho work [his activist work with urban farmers in South Central Los Angeles, which included playing folk music with the group Son de Madera] felt more community based, more collective. I was part of a collective voice and not on my own as an artist, and something about that attracted me.
        It’s so funny; I’ve read a couple things someone said that there were bets being placed on who would finish their album first, Axl Rose or me. One joke was that Axl was calling his record “Chinese Democracy,” and that there would be democracy in China by the time he finished! I laughed when I considered calling this record “American Democracy.” But I kinda spoke too soon on that!

It’s an election year here in the U.S. -- did that factor in to your decision to debut new music now?

I’d be lying if I said it was coincidental. I think that it’s an interesting moment. The lowest approval rating in the history of any presidency -- and for Congress. There’s this interesting rupture developing, and I think it’s a healthy one.
        To watch the Democrats, who were really our only institutional obstruction to this extremely rightward swing, fall in lockstep behind this new imperial fantasy that became reality -- that was a pivotal moment. A lot of people began to question the whole nature of both parties. Now more than ever, there’s a more fertile ground for artists to try to reveal the nature of both parties, who are mainly the public relations team for transnational corporations.
        Barack is clearly the most viable candidate, the most intelligent, the one with the most forward-thinking position, but I would hate to see the flames of discontent be watered down by rhetorical visions of hope and change, when historically those things have only come from immigrant workers or people fighting against segregation, or against the second class position of women. History has taught us that when it comes to ending war, it’s always been the people on the ground who’ve led the movement. Veterans who have come home and fought against the war. Iraqi kids. And artists and musicians.

You’ve been touring with Rage again. What is your relationship like with those guys now?

So much has changed. When you get older, you look back on tensions and grievances and have another perspective on it. I think our relationship now is better than it’s ever been. I would even describe it as great. We’re going to keep playing shows -- we have a couple of big ones happening in front of both conventions. As far as us recording music in the future, I don’t know where we all fit with that. We’ve all embraced each other’s projects and support them, and that’s great.

When you look out a crowd like the one you played in front of at Lollapalooza, what kind of potential do you see there?

There was this interesting thing that happened during the Clinton administration; people were looking inward and not outward, and not addressing what was going on. Rage set the political foreground for things that would come very shortly thereafter. I think people might see that what we are saying has more relevance now than when the band first came out.

Can we look forward to some live ODAAL gigs in the near future?

Definitely. I’ve always hoped that a project I was involved in could be a little more spontaneous, set up on a block and play. Me and Jon see eye to eye on doing that.

Meanwhile, as you said, Rage is playing in Minneapolis the same night the Republican convention happens in St. Paul. What do you anticipate for that show?

You’re gonna have to come and cover it. I think we both know what we expect. Good shoes would help. And you might wanna dip that bandanna in some vinegar.

Top photo courtesy of Anti-; second photo of De la Rocha playing in Scotland by Ed Jones/AFP/Getty Images

Comments

[Ben]

Really great interview. It is very cool to see Zack be so candid. I thought that he might have lost some credibility when RATM got back together, but the One Day As A Lion album was really a breath of fresh air!

[Paul]

The guys in ratm aren't idiots. They knew prior to signing w/ a major record label that there would be a lot of criticism of them coming from many people. Yet, they did the cost-benefit analysis of people viewing them as hypocrites but also at the same time being able to reach millions of new fans who wouldn't be able to hear socially conscious music otherwise. In addition, in a world were the majority of mainstream music has no message, ratm is a breath of fresh air. So instead of criticizing them, I must ask you, "what have you done?"

[Chris C.]

Damn, I don't have much to say but that I support De La Rocha in Everything he believes in...De La Rocha, I got Mad Love for you Bro!!!

[framework]

Making personal attacks is one way to shift the discussion. It's actually very effective. Instead about talking about the issues being raised in the interview, people resort to discussing things like personal lifestyle choices, rumors and gossip--which may very well be true, but irrelevant to the issues that are being brought up. Such things are relevant for those insisting on pointing out Zack's or rage fan's various "hypocrisies," and the internet is free for you to make gallant and bold statements as far as this internet medium will take you. Talking about what car he drives, the money he makes, Che shirts, etc. But anyway, for those defenders of power, keep defending, and for those fighting it, keep fighting.

[Mexica]

Zak and RATM are professional posers. For years I have seen them pose like fake revolutionaries and grab the paychecks like hardcore capitalists. These guys are phonies who never show up to protests unless there is an audience they can make money off of. They sicken me with their pseudo-revolutionary swagger. These are the emptiest revolutionaries I have ever seen! They should change their name from RATM to just ATM! They are nothing but entertainers who found a good niche to exploit. They are Pro-Capitalism all the way.

[Daniel Moase]

For Zack to be signed and be funded by a large multi-national capitalist institution is not a contradiction. Using the resources of these institutions to forward a message that directly contradicts the values of the institutions they are funded by is both confrontational and revolutionary. As Chomsky points out Karl Marx used the resources of the British Museum ('a symbol of the most vicious imperialism the world as ever known, the place were all the treaures of the empire gathered from the rape of the colonies were brought together') against it. As does Chomsky at MIT. Use your enemies own resources against them. Seems like a pretty smart idea.

In the same way we must use the words of the 'liberals' against them. When they speak of freedom and justice we must insist on freedom and justice.

And as for what Zack spending his money on a car, a BMW, whatever, is this of any great importance? He lives in a capitalist society too. He needs a car, shoes, a house. Should he refuse to buy a house because his mortgage is funded by a multi-national bank? Of course Zack is a capitalist. We all are, that's the point. Every day we interact with the society around us, the society that is capitalistic. What you declare yourself to be (and i've never heard Zack come out and say he's anything other than a revolutionary) is of secondary importance to what you want to be and what you will try to be. It is better to spend One Day As A Lion than to spend a thousand years as a lamb. Don't you get?! He's just trying to express a vision and an 'intuition' that there are other ways of doing things.

[chano]

Regardless of your stance. everyone needs a paycheck to survive in this messed up country. the way i see it, is that RATM is hustling the corporations for as much money as they can get..and laughing in there face after they pay up. the very same corporations that run this country are fueling the artist that are against it. just shows how greedy this whole system is. so i give a thumbs up to RATM and Zack for getting our money back. spend it well comrades. just imagine zacks bmw with a big sticker on the side. " paid for by the US government" ...the thought just makes me smile.

[In2Win]

WOW!! very interesting comments! it's NOT about the money for the band. Just because WHERE or how much money goes is not published out there for everyone to see, does not mean they are sitting in mansions with their bmw's in the driveway. Once you get an insite on the business aspect of the band or have a decent conversation with Zack or Tom, you will see that they are REAL! They walk the talk!
Peace and Respect!

[RageFan]

I went to school with Zack and he hasn't changed. I remember him playing with inside out at a church in Irvine and he was preaching revolution and bitching about the government just like he does now. Behind all of that he was a very kind and warm person, I have to say I don't really get who he is. Over all I think he and RATM are one of the best bands of all time but I doubt he will start a revolution.

[Erika Plummer]

I love that Zack is able to stir up so much controversy in this blog.

I have to laugh at the comments about "lilly white Irvine." For Elementary School we both attended The UCI Social Sciences Farm School. There were no grades, homework, etc. School was held in run down Irvine Ranch Farm Houses. Parents drove along a long dirt road that often washed out in the rains to drop us off. We started our days playing folk music in a circle, we camped in the desert and stayed up all night to watch goats give birth. I would give anything to send my own 2 sons to such a place.

I am inclined to believe he drives a Prius....but who really cares? He's stirring up a lot of passion for issues we all should be dead serious about. How dare anyone Judge him by his car or shoes. Absolutely insane! If more Americans in particular were less apathetic, more interested articulating and ACTING on INFORMED views, like Zack, the cultural and political landscape of this Country would be something to behold.

[damian]

Whats the difference if Zack do something wrong? You idiots are just trying to find excuse to not take the lyrics seriously. Is there a perfect man? Stop being a total losers and find the best in everything.

Excuse me if you can live without money. They earned every penny.

[TheRevolution]

Get a clue everyone. What do you people do to try to change anything....ohhhh zack has nikes and a bmw........watch the battle of mexico city dvd and look at his eyes, you dont think he believes what hes talking about...what the hell do you people do sit at home and do nothing. Rage is back for a reason, and it isnt money. Ill be seeing them in 10 hours with my bandana over my face. Atleast Zack is trying to get people to stand up and do something how can you possibly talk about that when your doing NOTHING

[T]

Just got done marching at the DNC with Rage after the free concert. Yeah, he's a selfish guy, if we assume he does these kind of things because he thinks it means something and allows him to believe he made some sort of difference. Do you know what I spent to go to the concert? $0. I don't know how much of that is going to Rage, but my guess is that it isn't exactly a killer score of cash.

[marcos]

ok listen up you idoits zack and the band have to eat and feed their fams second look at all the groups they give money to go buy a rage dvd and at the end they have a long ass list of groups they support so they have to give some money to them and they have to pay their crew members sure coke and nike anit the best ppl to be taking money from but thats who host all the sell out show and when i mean sell out i mean not like they sold all the tickets. but the bad sell out the band is just useing that stage to get their msg across to new ppl they need to get to new ppl so their can realy be a chance to change this govenment so the i truely belivee that they really are not making 2million and as far as zack having a bmw what dose that matter and why should it matter if he owns land i dont know if the bmw and land is true but what if he has a homeless shelter on that land then what can you say

[Bill]

Its ridiculous to criticize Zack for being rich, that is just what happens when you are in a million selling band. The guy clearly isn't greedy, to give it all up when he was only 30 when he could have shilled a couple more lower quality albums in the early 2000s if he wanted to just proves he aint in it for the money. Whatever you say about him getting historical facts wrong are whatever is beside the point. When this guy was merely 22 years of age, he wrote one of the best albums in history. So mature was the things he wrote when he was 22 I simply say there is something special about a guy who can write a song like bullet in the head at age 21 or 22. Honestly.

[renkai]

@Daniel Moase great post.

[Rage_fan_from_Bbay]

Why is everyone dissing the person who stands up against the government for a cause? And if that's the case, then why is no one doing anything about the government which is clearly fooling you citizens of the U.S.of A.? What must be the reason to stop Zack? Why can't people put in the similar amount of effort to do something about their own country instead of disparaging Zack?

If Zack wanted money, he could've written love songs and that way he could've been rich as much as any other musician! Then why take so much hatred from people and the government. But he speaks his mind. Aloud! And he isn't with any anti-christ band that only talks about Sex and Drugs. It is so shameful to read people's comment about the man who who wakes up young generation from slumber.

I'm sure all these people dissing Zack love to be whipped on their ass by the Republicans and Democrats which is why they're trying to shut Zack up and let the government speak on their behalf.

Get a life, all those who're judging Zack by his shoes and car. And stop disrespecting the guy you don't even know! For all these people, in Zack's words, "WAKE UP"!

[Dephyant]

Im appalled also at your judging of zac, especially at such a great interview...he is a celebrity after all...look at your own feet I bet they have some label on them, and your car has a fricken badge on it..who cares..he woke up millions of kids to an ugly capitalist world that has dragged the world yet again into financial crisis. Im sure he works with a lot of impoverished people, and if I was half caste i would'nt say i was white either...shame on you all...stop waisting your time complaining and get out and take it to the next level then, why dont you all show Zac you believe in what he has said and turn your degenerating country into and actual democracy...USA constitution is in tatters and all you can do is act with negative complacency. Ive never seen any other artist interview Noam Chomsky with an intelligent point of view.