Sam Moore reflects on Isaac Hayes, Jerry Wexler and a life in soul

Last week was a terrible blow to anybody invested in the soul and R&B music of the late '60s. Between the deaths of Isaac Hayes and Atlantic Records executive Jerry Wexler, it seemed as if one of the greatest eras in American pop music began to fade.

Sam Moore (above, left, with Hayes), one half of the R&B duo Sam and Dave, is performing an Isaac Hayes tribute at Sunset Junction this weekend, and he knew the players of the decade as well as anyone. He spoke with Soundboard last week about his fractured friendship with Hayes, his decades-long reconciliation with Wexler, and his life at the front lines and the forgotten margins of soul.

Obviously this has got to be an especially hard week for you.

Oh, isn't it something...?  I’m telling you. Isaac, man, now Jerry.

Had you stayed close to them up until their deaths?

Every so often we would call [Jerry] to see how he was doing. He wasn't getting out that much, so we would call and check in on him. Isaac, I attempted to stay in touch with, but as I guess you've heard, it's no secret, his organization of people, they kind of separated that. So I didn't have that much communication with Isaac. But fast forward here, I didn't have that much connection after he had joined the Scientologists.

You came out with a new solo record a couple of years ago after a 35-year hiatus from solo work. Did you feel any pressure to get back on the road and follow that up?

I did. Because y'know, there's a story behind that. After Dave and I left each other, I was re-signed back to Atlantic and I cut an album as a solo artist with King Curtis being the producer. Well, I tell ya, I heard one cut of a song, I think it was shopped around one day on radio, and I said, "Oh boy," and then I didn't hear that any more. Then I didn't hear any cuts any more from the album, so for years I went back, "Man what's going on?" I'm already having doubts about myself. People have put it in my head, "Well, you can't sing without Dave, you can't perform without Dave, nobody wants to hear you without Dave." So when [the documentary film] "Only the Strong Survive" was done and we were out doing promotion, the management and Roger Friedman did a surprise by bringing Jerry. So Roger takes us inside to the theater and he and my wife sat there and they talked and Joyce said he was very emotional. So, when it was finished, Roger said to him, "Well, now Jerry, tell me something. What happened? Why you never put the album out, y'know?" And you know what he said, honestly? "I was a jerk. I was such a fool," he said. He turned around and said, "Sam, I did you such an injustice." And y'know, him saying that, there's not many people that can admit when you've done something, you've made a mistake. And I looked at him and I gave him a hug and I said, "Y'know what? All is forgiven." And we settled out differences.

That reconciliation must have made his passing a little easier than it could have been otherwise.

I know, and I was so happy. Not for my ego. It wasn’t my ego. I didn't ask him to go into details, he just said, "I was a jerk, I didn’t do it, and, man, I really did injustice to Sam," and I looked at him and I could see he was upset by that. And I never, never shall forget Wex behind that, man. I feel there was a closure and I ain't going to never forget Jerry Wexler for being an honest, good person.

It sounds like that had been something on his mind for a while.

I don't know, because he was in the theater and he was watching "Only the Strong Survive" and Joyce said that all of a sudden he was crying. And he said, "Oh my God, what have I, what did I do to this man, what, why, oh my God, look at this, oh my God." So, I don’t know, I can’t tell whether he had thought about this for years or it had just fell on his heart after he watched the documentary.

It’s got to make everyone -- yourself, especially -- feel so much better about it. That must’ve been  hard to cope with for those decades.

Yeah, over 30-some-odd years. I stepped back and I was talking to some other people, and I heard he was saying, 'Y'know, I just didn't give the man his legs. He should have been there with Smokey and Marvin.' I feel so good about the fact that I was able to bury the doubts in my heart and my mind as to about why my career, as far as I'm concerned, went down the toilet. I felt good about that.

That must’ve been a really hard thing to have on your mind, this creeping self-doubt of wondering “was it me?”

Yeah, it was. You're not with your partner any longer, and I felt as if I did a good job. Well, I don't know if I felt that way because, you must understand, I had a drug problem. And I thought maybe the reason they didn't address the album is because I got such a drug problem. I got such a reputation as a junkie, maybe they don't want to have anything to do [with me]. By this time, Dave has got another guy, another Sam, and they're out there making money. I was doing oldie shows. These guys come from way back, and when they get on stage they say, 'Well you remember 1925 when we recorded this,' and here's this guy Sam walking on this stage with all this up-to-date stuff and singing and moving and twisting. But I had to make a living, y'know? I had a family. You just buckle up your belt, big guy, and pull yourself up by your boot straps and get on out there and fix your teeth and do what you gotta do.

That must’ve been just cutting.

Promoters would try to get me booked and they'd say things like this: "Well, yeah, Sam Moore -- well, who's going to sing Dave's part?" And you’re going, "Oh, man, I do all the parts." And what really got me, one guy said, "Why don't we get a guy and just name him Dave and I can put that up on the marquee so the people can see that it's Sam and Dave and it doesn’t matter because you got the fake Drifters and the fake Coasters and the Marvelettes." And I said, "No, I'm not going to dishonor the name like that."

When I did "Only the Strong Survive," it was Isaac's birthday, and I was invited to do the show at the Performing Arts Center in New Jersey. And, let me tell this to you, when I did that, Isaac was there and he came in, and I didn't know he was a Scientologist. I was just so glad to see him. He was the producer of Sam and Dave for 98% of the songs that we ever recorded, from "Hold On, I’m Coming" to "Soul Man" and whatnot, and I was so glad to see Bubba. I said, "When I go on, Bubba, I know it's your birthday, but are you gonna come out and play?" "Yeah." I said, "Really?" He said, "Yeah." I went out on stage and I sang. So when it came to the last song, which was "Soul Man," I said, "Ladies and gentlemen, the man that wrote them all for Sam and Dave, Mr. Isaac Hayes. Happy birthday, Isaac." Guess what? They stopped him. They wouldn't let him. He was in his dressing room and he didn't come out.

Was someone holding him back?

If you look at "Only the Strong Survive," I twitched real hard, because I know the guy ain't going to do it. You can see hurt in my face. His manager went to my wife and said, "Look, we can't let Sam get his career started on Isaac." And I'm going, "Get over on Isaac? He wrote the stuff! What are you talking about?" "Well, no, he's not going to reissue his career behind Isaac Hayes."

The movie seemed like such a prime chance to get it back together on some level.

I wasn’t looking at Isaac as my peer, he was my producer and he was my friend and I wanted to share my success. What made me successful was on the back of him. It would be different if I was trying to revisit my career behind Quincy Jones or Berry Gordy. No, this was Sam and Dave's producer. This is the man I want to play stuff with me, that's all.

When he was talking to me in the dressing room at Jay Leno, he was talking to me about coming to the church, I said, "Isaac, I don’t join cults, man." I said, "I wish you well," and that was the way it was. So what's that tell you, man? I couldn’t communicate with him because I wasn't allowed to. If I talked with him, I could only talk so long with him, y'know, because he had to go. And it hurt, man. Because he and I were closer than brothers. So you can understand, my friend, it was an experience. There's history between Jerry Wexler, Sam Moore and Isaac Hayes.

What do you think was going on there? Do you think it was Scientology or was it just a separation in later years?

At the time I was doing "Overnight Sensational" with Randy Jackson, sometimes we would sit in the studio and Randy would ask me, "Sam, what happened? Why didn't your career go any place? You sound good to me." The only thing I could come up with, and this is negative, I came up with conspiracy. He said, "Well, where did the conspiracy come from?" I said, "I don’t know. The only time I got respect is when I would go to Europe." I got an award for being -- listen to this -- one of the responsible people bringing black music to England.

You’re getting awards for bringing it to them, but not for bringing it at home.

I said, OK, so maybe you want to put it off as I was a junkie, I did drugs. OK. But I'm clean now. By that time, when I got inducted in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, was in 1992, but in 1988 is when Dave got killed and I have been clean since 1984. And this is 2008 now.

The other thing was, "You know, people really don't want to hear just you, Sam, they want the sound of Sam and Dave." I said, "The sound? The sound of Sam and Dave was given to us by Isaac Hayes with David Porter being the lyricist." But you know what? You just have to do the best you can now that, like, everybody's caught it and wants me to do stuff. What took you so long? I ain't been nowhere. My thing now, I'm more interested in doing symphonies. The stuff that Isaac wrote and produced, I'm going to do it with symphonies. I think I deserve to do that.

There's so much attention being paid back to that late '60s sound and it seems ripe for the picking if you want to do that.

I'm not interested in getting up there doing the Sam and Dave stuff and running all over the stage and twisting my body, because my body can't do that anymore. I want to just get up there and sing and let you enjoy the stuff that I have done over the years and for those of you who didn't know about Sam and Dave or Sam Moore.

What’s so compelling about doing that with a symphony?

I did something in Nashville with a symphony orchestra and I had the chance to do "Soul Man." When the guitar goes to opening, the strings do the horns. Oh man, you ought to hear it -- oh my, you ought to hear it, it's so hip, man. I've got enough material I can stay up there for damn near two hours.

Next week, I'm going into L.A. for the tribute to Isaac and I'm going to do the act where I do all the songs that were written for Sam and Dave. I got an e-mail from Randy last night, he told everybody, "You'd better call me because I'm going to pick my bass up and jam with Sam." And somebody said this morning that Samuel L. Jackson said he wants to come by and say hello, so that'll be nice.

I still want to have a good time and I appreciate them asking me to do that for Isaac. I wish it hadn't been that way, but it is, so I'll do it.

You and Isaac had a really complicated history. What do you think it’s going to feel like singing these songs after all that and after his death?

I think it's going to be OK, August. Because even through all the stuff, at the end of the night, at the end of the night I've got to do "Hold On, I'm Coming," I've got to do "Soul Man," I've got to do "I Thank You," "Something Is Wrong" and "Soothe Me." I've got to do those songs because that's what people pay to hear you do. If I cry, I cry. If I don't cry, I don't cry. But I'm honored to have been asked to do it and I'm going to do the very best.

-August Brown

Sam Moore Tribute to Isaac Hayes is on Saturday at 9:30 p.m. at the Hoover Stage, Sunset Junction.

Photo by Ezio Petersen / UPI

Comments

[Shag]

I missed Isaac at the Hollywood Bowl last year, and I read a review of the show which read that, "his words were sometimes slurred due to complications from a stroke." Now reading that he died of stroke complications, and knowing that Scientology thinks that illnesses like this can be treated with mega-doses of Niacin, one has to wonder.