Bela Karolyi and the ages

BEIJING -- Bela Karolyi is doing NBC television commentary for gymnastics, and even as he cheered on the U.S. women from his perch just above where the balance beam is located at the National Indoor Stadium, he also kept simmering over what he believes is China's "blatant" flouting of the sport's age rules.

According to the international federation rules, Olympic and world championship competitors must turn 16 during the year they participate. The two Chinese women who have qualified for the individual all-around  -- Yang Yilin and Jiang Yuyuan -- were named in several news reports as having birth dates on provincial registration lists in 1993 and 1994, respectively. According to passport information submitted to become Olympics eligible, they are now 16.

After China outscored the U.S. in team qualifications, Karolyi said the Chinese team is using "half-people" and that China is arrogant. "These people think we are stupid," Karolyi said. International federation officials have reiterated over the last two weeks that it is not their job to investigate "Internet" reports or challenge the passport information submitted by a federation.

"We are in the business of gymnastics," Karolyi said. "We know what a kid of 14 or 15 or 16 looks like. What kind of slap in the face is this? They are 12, 14 years old and they get lined up and the government backs them and the federation runs away. There is an age limit and it can't be controlled."

-- Diane Pucin

Photo: China's Jiang Yuyuan, who is listed as 16, is competing in the individual all-around gymnastics competition. Credit: Jed Jacobsohn /Getty Images

Comments

[RobinL]

Give me a break!! These girls are CHILDREN. Shame on the Chinese. It's the most blatant cheating I've ever seen. It definitely tarnishes their gold in womens' gymnastics. Disgusting!

[RobinL]

Just noticed all the Oriental girls on this thread bragging about looking young. First, no you don't. Second, there's no mistaking a child. At least admit that they've messed up. I'd happily admit all the garbage my government's messed up on. But this is a really corrupt step for the Olympics.

[jg116]

Asians look younger, and that is a fact. I have an appearance on average 7-10 years below my real age, according to non-Asian standards.

I guessed wildly wrong at one time of the age of my neighbor's son (non-Asian) when I initially came to U.S. The guy is actually 2 years younger than me, but I thought he was at my dad's age.

I would not concern too much about ages to gain competitive advantage. A drug enhancement will probably do better job if un-detected.

It takes years of practice, good training, and personal dedication to get to the Olympic game. I am just proud of all of them, Asian or not. Huge personal sacrafice though.

[bcl]

Chinese-language news reports and media from many countries reported three of the gymnasts' ages as too young. This goes beyond Bela's visual determination, or whether he can or can't tell how young or old someone is. When Chinese media have reported on gymnasts' ages - which now have magically changed - and when government documents show ages that have been altered on newly-provided passports, it shows that the Chinese gymnastics officials are not playing by the rules.

[bela needs to go]

He Kexin may have been crying after her bars routine but if you saw Alicia Sacramone tonight, she's 20, and was on the verge of tears, if not in tears throughout the night after beam. Are you saying she reacted like a child? The anger in her face right as she came off beam....isn't that as 'child like' as tears? He Kexin had the pressure of a whole nation quite literally in front of her and she fell. How would you fair in that situation?

Regardless, China won today and the US team fell short.

[learn some pc]

Hi Robin,

Perhaps your first admission would be that your choice of words is less than PC, to say the least.

The term Oriental refers to objects, not people. Oriental rugs are nice things for people to have....but women and girls are not objects for men to have. Pick up Edward Said's book and you can learn about how wrong your choice of words were.

And these Asians, both male and female are simply stating the fact that they themselves do look younger by US standards. I am sure many of them have been asked for id when they were well past the legal age while their non-Asian friends were not. Stating the facts is not bragging. I hope there's no jealousy laced into your comments.

Is it really hard to believe that people in this country age much faster - working the longest hours with little or no vacation, cramming their schedules to the max, sitting out in the sun or tanning salons, smoking, over-eating and being overly stressed?

As for the corrupt steps in the Olympics? Have you ever watched the Olympics before? The figure skating judging scandal with the Canadian pair? Marion Jones and her coach pumping her with drugs to make her the fastest woman alive? S. Korea's male gymnast being gypped out of his gold medal and Paul Hamm waving it around?

[Joseph]

All the talk about the ages of the gymnasts and the real story is that a United States citizen was murdered by a Chinese national. We should have retaliated with military force! Americans will remain targets abroad until we show the world that we dont care about our "world image" and that the rest of the planet dieing doesnt equal the life of 1 American.

[Harold]

Many of the Chinese gymnastics did look younger. However, how can there be so much garbage slinging, name calling, and personal insults on the young girls; especially from the “Great Karolyi”. For one, there is no evidence. It all started from the smart A’s who can just tell by looking and information someone put on the internet. If you really think here is a problem, you should put pressure on the Olympic committee to investigate or change the rule. I am so tired of hearing the insults on those girls who most likely have devoted their life for this moment. They won because they did better than everybody else. Some smart A’s will ask again “what kind of life do they have?”. It is a very different culture and family value over there in China. It means honor and prestige for both the athletes and the family. It might also mean money in these days.

[Paul]

two words: SORE LOSER.

Where's his Olympic spirit? as a former Olympics coach, Bela just blackened all his former achievements.

[bw305]

It amazes me how far networks will go to get ratings. NBC hit a new low by bring in Bela Karolyi to play the age card. And notice the age issue only comes up when the U.S. is behind in points standings. I too agree with others that appearances can be deceiving and especially for Asians it that much harder too tell. In my department we have Asian woman who are in their late 20’s who look like teenagers if not the fact they are wearing business attire. NBC and Karolyi, Stop with the excuses, stop the hate and if the U.S. losses its because they were outperformed.

[Sammy]

Until it can be proven that the Chinese have been cheating, just give them the benefit of the doubt. If a team that was much less of a threat that had accusations swirling around them, no one would really care. The Karolyis are truly sore losers and huge whiners. Martha was even taped bashing the Chinese team, calling them "little babies" while the rest of the team just laughed on. Furthermore, I can only understand him half the time.

I think the U.S. should be proud of their silver. They won a silver not lost a gold. It's not like the gold medal was theirs to begin with. Tim Daget, one of the commentators for gymnastics on NBC, even said on the Today show this morning that in order for the U.S. team to win, the Chinese would have to falter and the U.S. team would need a perfect competition. EVEN if you give Sacramone the benefit of the doubt by replacing her balance beam score with 15.9 (which she received in prelims) and giving her Shawn Johnson's floor score (as she is a great floor gymnast), the US Team still would have fallen short and the Chinese Team STILL would have won. COME ON GUYS

GIVE BOTH TEAMS SOME CREDIT. The Chinese gymnasts put on a great show (and even they weren't perfect as Cheng Fei fell off the beam!) and the US made a great effort. They are both very talented!! The Chinese Team deserved the gold so lets just congratulate them.

Just give up the whining!!

[Faye]

It is hard to hear Karolyi's comments without thinking that whether or not he really has the facts to prove that these Chinese girls are in fact underage.

Last night, after watching the NBC live report of the Chinese winning the gold medal for women's gymnastics, Karolyi definitely seemed upset and the first thing that came out of his mouth was "well, China won, but too bad they used underaged girls." You know, when other US athelets win a medal, Chinese reporters and analysts don't sit behind their desk and just blurt out things like this, then why should you? Especially without any proven facts?

And stop saying things like "half people", you're just jealous that these girls look so damn young and beautiful while you look like a 80 year old homeless person.

[Jenny Z]

Bela and his wife are just being the sore losers they are!
If anyone recall, during the men's gymnastic Bela was going off saying how the US had a Disadvantage of missing two most EXPERIENCED gymnasts (Hamm brothers). Last night, after China won, he starts with how the Chinese gymnasts had advantage because they have no fear and no pressure (since they’ve never been in competition). He is contradicting himself!

Also, why bring this up AFTER China won GOLD? If he felt that way, it should’ve been said earlier. Then, to bring the age claim is just silly! Innocent until proven guilty, PROVE IT! Chinese Gov can dr passport and so can others!

Lets just focus on how hard all the gymnasts work to be in competition. It’s a shame to be focused on rumor!

[Jennifer]

Dahni (8-10, 11:50am),
Thanks for the "reality check", but here's one for you: When Tara Lipinski won gold in figure skating at the age of 15, as you say, it was not against the rules to have a 15-year-old in competition. In this sport -- gymnastics -- and in this time -- 2008 -- the rules state that you must turn 16 in the Olympic year. So, your question of, "does it not count when the Americans do it?" does not apply here. We weren't cheating because it was allowable to have a 15-year-old in competition in that sport in that year. The issue here is following the rules as they are stated at the time of competition.

[Keonjai]

Clearly Karolyis is using her American standards to judge the Chinese girls. It's a shame to have a coach to have such a narrow mind. Many coaches love to talk trash and Bela Karolyis just showed how naive he really are. You should checkout what these Chinese girls have been eating in their past 16 years. Americans are definitely having a lot more nutritions and they take it for granted. They think everybody on this planet is having the same amount of food when half the world is still living in poverty. Another thing is the Chinese bone structure is clearly smaller compare to the Americans. Are Karolyis comparing Apple to Oranges and then claim the Orange is not red enough? Calling Chinese atheletes "half-people"?! Why singling out the Chinese team and not complaining about the Russians or the Japanese teams?! Those girls also look 14 to everyone! Please give me a break!! If the Chinese team is losing, do you think Karolyis would make any noise?! If your team cannot win, don't try to fault it on someone else! If Karolyis really wants the gold medals, she should put up a younger team, instead of sending a 20 year old girl. These days Americans just love to whine about everything.

[Stephen]

The ages of the chinese gymnasts have been in question since before the competition even began.

Hell, I even question whether the american team is doping. I don't recall seeing gymnasts that stocky being the norm on the american team before.

[Kate]

So, let me get this straight. If you object to a team that wins by cheating, you're a sore loser?

Give me a break.

[Stephen]

Cheating is cheating.

Of course, most people don't care if you are cheating if you lose.

So yes, everyone that says that this wouldn't be an issue if China wasn't in contention and ultimately won the gold is right.

Marion Jones was hounded about doping because of her success, not because she competed.

Seriously, there is probably at least 1 other athlete in the Olympics who is cheating in some way but won't win a medal. Nobody will care.

[bobby]

I don't think I have seen any discussion on this, but I have read some posts which compared this to doping. The point which I am trying to bring is that these girls were indeed varifed by Chinese Internationl Passports. I know that there is the possibilty that the chinese government might change the information to bump them up to 16yrs old, but the bottom line is that it IS an internationally acknowledged passport. Our government, the governments of the international community accept all the information on the passport to be true. It is the same as any athlete getting tested and getting cleared by a anti-doping commitee and people STILL questioning the credibilty of the test results. Ofcourse, people are entitled to their suspicions, ex. Lance Armstrong, people still suspect him of doping even though he was never formally proven. Yet what bela did was overboard in which he directed personal attacks on the Chinese team. I personally am quite offended by these harsh comments, and especially disapointed as he was representing NBC and USA to the world.

[Stephen]

Thier ages were "verified" through a government document that benefits the Chinese government. Seriously, that's the argument you are going with?

Remember Danny Almonte? Little Leaguer that was "verifed" as being young enough until some real digging was done.

There's a quote out there from a Chinese bronze medalist that ADMITTED to being 14 during the 2000 Olympics.

Maybe I'm biased or racist or whatever you want to call it, but when I see some girl with a MISSING TOOTH, I'm going to assume it's because she's YOUNG and not because she either got it knocked out or has very poor dental hygiene.

[Alexei]

Don't you all know? If you cheat and no one can prove you're cheating, it's not really cheating!

[bobby]

"There's a quote out there from a Chinese bronze medalist that ADMITTED to being 14 during the 2000 Olympics."
Posted by: Stephen | August 13, 2008 at 10:53 AM

Where is this quote from? What source? Is it even credible? Just as people have said that the Chinese Media is unreliable when reporting, the SAME people quote and use it as evidence. So... are you basing your argument saying that some publisher "quoted" a chinese bronze medalist?

[Cathy]

Remember 14 yr old Romanian gymnast Nadia Comaneci won Montreal Olympic Gold ? Bela Karoly's first young pixie protege.

Why JUST age restrictions ? To really be fair, how about restrictions for height, weight, body muscle mass ?

In the past there were no age restrictions, now there are... so maybe there could be physical size, muscle mass restrictions - you could always change the rules as needed every Olympic year to suit everyone! That should make everyone happy.

[Stephen]

"Where is this quote from? What source? Is it even credible? Just as people have said that the Chinese Media is unreliable when reporting, the SAME people quote and use it as evidence. So... are you basing your argument saying that some publisher "quoted" a chinese bronze medalist?

Posted by: bobby | August 13, 2008 at 02:53 PM "

There's a video on youtube that was on CHINESE TV that she was 14 at the olympics.

There have been plenty of verified age falsifications in gymnastics. I don't have to look them up for you.

They look young, there were reports MONTHS ago that they may be too young according to RULES, and at least 1 instance (He Kexin) where she was officially introduced as being 13 in some competition JUST LAST YEAR.

[Lisa]

What is being overlooked IF any of the Chinese girls are underage is why the limit began in the 1st place. There is a perverse trend to see younger and more childlike gymnast champions. Gymnastics already borders on abuse. I could barely watch our banged up of-age American girls. It's kind of sick. In one way, they want to protect children from the abuse of being pushed so young. But now, it's clear the older looking the body (i.e. post-puberty) the more injuries likely.

No matter how brusquely Bela put it, he's right. Either change the requirement or require multiple forms of verification...you know, like when you get a job in the US. That's not much to ask. Then we wouldn't all be speculating.

Though the Chinese were the obvious winners, by a landslide, it would be nice to have no doubts about a fair competition.