John Mayer: The writer behind the controversial Playboy interview speaks out

The week's biggest pop story isn't the "We Are the World" remake or the new Erykah Badu single -- even if it should be -- but the fallout from John Mayer's recent interview with veteran music writer Rob Tannenbaum in Playboy.

The nearly 7,000-word piece surfaced online Wednesday and appears in the magazine's March issue; in it, Mayer bared his psyche in relation to many topics, including his ex-girlfriends Jessica Simpson and Jennifer Aniston, his Internet porn dependency and the way he communicates with his 82-year-old father. (He fixes Dad's electronics.)

But the firestorm that's overtaken Twitter and the rest of the Web, and caused Mayer to nearly weep during a seven-minute onstage apology in Nashville, resulted from the singer-songwriter-guitarist's comments about race and sexuality -- specifically, his use of the strongest racial epithet possible to describe his relationship to black culture, and his unfortunate use of the term “David Duke” to refer to his sexual organ, comparing his preference for Caucasian women to white supremacy.

The first thing that struck me about the Mayer interview, before I even read it, was the byline. I've known Rob Tannenbaum, now a contributing editor to Playboy, since our salad days as young music critics in 1990s New York. He was my editor in the early 2000s when I was a contributing writer at Blender magazine. He's an exceedingly thoughtful person and an excellent interviewer; I wasn't surprised that he got even more from Mayer, a notoriously reckless interview subject, than others who've probed his ego.

This afternoon, Tannenbaum agreed to an e-mail exchange about the interview and its aftermath. This is the first such interview he has granted. Our back-and-forth touched upon Mayer’s character, the changing reality of entertainment journalism in the Internet age, and the reasons why no white person can say at least one thing that Mayer said.

Ann Powers: John Mayer is, in some ways, an interviewer's dream. He's smart and totally reckless with his opinions and disclosures. You went deeper than most with Mayer by getting him to talk about his place within music culture in terms of race -- and what he said has caused a huge storm. When you brought up the subject, did it seem like he'd considered these matters before?

Rob Tannenbaum: If it's OK, first let me answer a related question you didn't ask: Mayer wasn't "drunk" during the interview, as many people have written and presumed. Toward the end of our first interview, at his home outside L.A., we each had a "British pour," maybe two ounces of Scotch. We met again a week later, for lunch in Brooklyn, and that's when he discussed the idea of a "hood pass." We weren't drinking at lunch. He was sober.

In most cases, I didn't have to bring up a sensitive topic because he beat me to it. He knows interviewers are going to ask these questions, so he brings them up voluntarily. It's a candid approach. He mentioned Jennifer Aniston before I did; he mentioned Jessica Simpson before I did; he used the word "douchebag" before I did. Since childhood, he's spent a lot of time inside his own head -- that was one of the themes of our interview -- and yes, it seemed as though he'd considered these matters before. Whatever I asked him, he seemed to have already asked himself. Ruth Shalit was very articulate about this when she profiled him: Ruth wrote, "Mayer takes self-awareness to new postmodern heights," like a football player who provides "color commentary on his own career."

A.P.: That's what impressed me about the interview. Mayer is so willing to "go there," confronting his internal processes and motivations in a way that few celebrities allow themselves to do, within interviews at least. Yet his comments about black women and his use of that taboo racial epithet now seem reckless. When I read them within the interview, I thought they were (to be kind) half-baked: Even a white man who's done comedy with Dave Chappelle can't get away with "dropping the N bomb" -- even if, as Mayer did, he's trying to make a point about the fact that white people CAN'T use that word. Mayer didn't have the finesse to totally pull off his argument. Now, though, after Twitter and the blogs have gotten hold of his quotes and wrestled them into some new shape, it seems like he was praising David Duke and flinging around epithets for fun. What happened?

R.T.: The article is long and it’s complicated. It’s 6,870 words total. Holly Robinson Peete, an actress Mayer mentioned in the interview, called it on her blog “quite possibly one of the longest interviews ever published.” Which isn’t a fact (Playboy publishes an interview of that length every month), but it is a feeling. Articles are much shorter now. So are sentences. Who has time to read 6,870 words?

Twenty years ago, Milan Kundera pointed to “Rewriting as the spirit of the times.” Now, it’s re-tweeting as the spirit of the times. A story gets shaved and shortened until it can fit into 140 characters or less. The 140c version of the interview was, “John Mayer used the N word.” And Mayer’s too smart to be surprised by this. When a white person uses that word, any words that precede it or follow it are going to be overshadowed. As for his David Duke comment, Mayer was pondering the discrepancy between his dating history, which has been exclusively white, and the attraction he feels for women of different races. He wasn’t embracing Duke, or racism; he was noticing a dating pattern that, among white guys, isn’t at all unusual.

A.P.: You point out that Playboy regularly publishes these long interviews. In fact, the Playboy interview is a kind of "sacred space" in cultural journalism. Historically, it's been a place where all kinds of powerful people -- Ayn Rand, Jimmy Carter, Malcom X, Dolly Parton -- opened themselves up in extensive, probing conversations. It's been said that Mayer might have been trying to rise to the "edgy" occasion of a Playboy interview. Do you think that's true?

R.T.: I don't think it's fair for me to speculate on his motivations. People often come to regret things they've said in interviews. It's a thrill to speak the truth, but there are also ramifications, and the ramifications remain after the thrill has faded. That's why celebrities routinely claim to have been "misquoted" or "taken out of context." And it's worth noting that Mayer didn't do that. He took full and sole responsibility for what he'd said.

I've done about a dozen Playboy Interviews, and I don't think I ever spent less than four hours talking to any of the subjects. (50 Cent sat, patiently, for one continuous six-hour interview.) In the world of entertainment journalism, this is like an eternity! Years ago, access was far less regulated. During one Rolling Stone feature, a band's keyboard player invited me to the wedding reception at his house later that night. Now, publicists want to keep all interviews as short as possible. It's not unusual to be offered one hour for a cover story.

A.P.: I keep thinking about the Kanye West debacle -- his interruption of Taylor Swift's acceptance speech on the MTV Video Music Awards to declare that Beyonce should have won an award instead of her. That was another case of a thirtysomething male artist at the top of his game committing "career suicide" by overstepping a boundary. It was another example of a mediated event that somehow spun out of the control of both the subject (West and Mayer) and those organizing it (MTV, you and Playboy). Both brought up touchy matters of race and gender. In both cases, the artists involved expressed great remorse almost immediately. West still remains in a kind of exile for his "terrible" deed. Will the same thing happen to Mayer? Or will this pass? And if it passes, is it partly because he's white?

R.T.: West and Mayer have worked together! Imagine being inside that recording studio? “Here’s my idea...” “No, here’s MY idea...”  One difference: West was on live TV. There was video footage and audio, so people could watch it again and again, or create mash-ups out of it. It was an audio meme, a video meme and a print meme. Dimensionally, Mayer’s debacle is much more flat: It’s in print. The only relevant video that exists is of him on stage in Nashville on Wednesday night, apologizing for what he’d said.

I don’t think I’ve seen West on any awards show since September, when he interrupted Taylor Swift. It’s pretty clear the industry has banished him from industry celebrations. Whites and blacks are not treated equally for their transgressions, so Mayer might not be exiled. But if that’s the case, it’s not only because he’s white. Mayer’s mea culpa was immediate, articulate and unmitigated. You can’t be forgiven until you apologize, and I don’t think West did that as clearly as his friend did. Lastly, I think it may pass because many people who’ve read the full Playboy interview subsequently say they understand the point Mayer was attempting to make, even as they abhor his choice of words.

A.P.:  I agree with that last point. I read the interview before the controversy erupted, and though I thought, oh, he's in trouble, when I read the N- word and "David Duke," what really struck me were his comments about how Internet porn has transformed men of his age into people who literally can't be satisfied by a single real partner. Now, in light of what's happened, I also wonder if the Internet has transformed the interview, making it something that can't be self-contained, that will inevitably explode into sound bytes that will be misinterpreted, respun and played out to the torment of those interview subjects. No wonder publicists limit access! Not that I approve of them doing so.

One last question: You're a veteran music writer who's very knowledgeable about the whole history of pop. How did Mayer's comments strike you as relating to issues of race and sexuality as they've played out within music circles over the past, oh I don't know, century? There have been many white players who've found their "cool" by associating with black culture. And the loudmouthed, arguably misogynist sex symbol -- that goes back all the way to the Stones, if not before.

R.T.: Wow. The last century of race, sexuality and rock 'n’ roll? I don’t even know where to start. Rock music couldn’t exist without black musicians, but it wouldn’t be as rich without white musicians. So you have love, dependency and resentment — on both sides. And it probably means that musicians traffic in the subtleties of race more than almost any other profession.

You mentioned the Stones, who were the most vulgar and adroit and enduring band of R&B freaks among their generation. In retrospect, it’s curious how little furor there was when Mick Jagger sang, in 1978, “Black girls just wanna get ... all night.” In the ‘70s, John Lennon and Patti Smith both used the N-word in song titles, and Elvis Costello sang it (still does) in “Oliver’s Army.” Of course, all three had pretty strong reputations as progressives, which John Mayer doesn’t.

Rock stars have freedoms the rest of us can only envy, including license to provoke and tread on taboos and determine the limits of their own vocabulary. I think Mayer feels a kinship to that tradition. (Much like Chris Martin of Coldplay, John is a lot more interesting than his music.) The first single off his album was “Who Says,” a disarmingly gentle song full of defiance. The sentiment is almost punk rock: “Don’t tell me what I can and can’t do.” On top of that, he’s spent a lot of time among black musicians. He doesn’t feign being “street” -- he’s from Connecticut for crying out loud. (So am I, which entitles me to mock it.) But he has spent a lot of time in the company of blackness.

Take away his use of the “N-word,” and you have a white musician commenting on the privilege of race, and warning other whites that they can’t ever presume to know racial disadvantage. Harry Allen, an accomplished black writer, described this on Twitter as a "powerful, pointed statement." How many white rock stars understand that, never mind declare it? He found a stupid way to make valuable points. If he’d just left out one forbidden word and an ill-advised reference to a white supremacist (who I don’t want to promote by naming), Mayer might be up for an NAACP Image Award.

The dominant version of this story is the reductive one being passed on Twitter, which focuses on about five of the story’s 6,870 words. I am not exonerating what Mayer said. But in this country we are so uneasy discussing race that we prefer a summary, with an evident villain, to a consideration of the queries he raised, jokingly, about interracial romance, the fetishization of blackness. I hope the story will have a revisionist phase, where more people address the non-repulsive things he had to say. I think you and I agree there’s a lot in it to contemplate and discuss.

--Ann Powers

Photo of John Mayer: Theo Wargo / Getty Images

Comments

[Tiffany]

I think both of you are OVERESTIMATING the intelligence of John Mayer. I'll admit that he at times can sound more articulate than the average pop musician, but he likes the brainpower to speak intelligently on complicated issues (race, gender, celebrity culture to name a few). You are somehow insinuating, erroneously I might add, that the controversy over the article stems from the fact that people are not smart enough to get what Mayer was talking about, which isn't the case. The playboy article reads like the rants of a manic narcissist, not some troubled, misunderstood genius.

[PhDiva]

Rob Tannenbaum is just as racially insensitive and offensive as John Mayer.

I am a black woman who found the interview profoundly offensive, and I read the ENTIRE interview, not the twitterized version.

1. Rob Tannenbaum's question about "Black women throwing themselves" at John Mayer was just as racially and sexually offensive as Mayer's answer. By asking that questioon Tannenbaum deliberately invoked centuries of steretypes about black women. He then asked Mayer to name names so that he could ensure that specific black women, like Kerry Washington would be personally humiliated.
2. Mayer was NOT just describing a racial preference. That would been fine. By using the terms he did, he was describing Black women as racially inferior to him and to white women. There is a difference between expressing a preference and labeling an entire group of women as racially and sexually inferior. Tannenbaum doesn't know the difference and doesn't care.
3. There are ways to intellectually investigate the use of the N-word. Mayer didn't demonstrate an understanding of the complexity of that word in his interview. Tannenbaum is trying to make Mayer seem more complex than he is.
4. Tannenbaum is so racist that he is basically saying that black people are so stupid that if we really understood what Mayer was saying that we would give him an NAACP Image Award. This is a revelation Tannenbaum's revelation of how much contempt he personally feels about black people.
5. Ann Powers doesn't realize that it is reckless reporting to describe conscious and deliberate racism as reckless and misguided intelligence.
6. I have a Ph.D. I am not an idiot who can only read 140 words at a time as Tannenbaum implies. I umderstand exactly what I was reading. I have worked for the NAACP Image Awards, and I can assure you that there is no way that Mayer could have phrased his offensive ideas that would have made him a candidate for one.

No wonder Tannenbaum enjoyed interviewing Mayer so much. They were two racist white men who got together and had a great time demeaning and degrading black people. They didn't care about how demeaning and degrading this was to black people in general and black women in particular, and they still don't.

The first playboy interview was conducted by Alex Haley and was an interview with Miles Davis Tannenbaum has degraded Haley's Playboy legacy.

[tom]

I haven't read the Playboy interview, but I read this, and thought Royal Tannenbaum here, at least, was measured, considerate and thoughtful.

I appreciated his refusal to lynch the interviewee, even as many want to lynch both of them.

Folks, we must develop a tolerance for different points of view or we're going to finish off free speech with political correctness.

To realize how little of it there is left, go to France, (where Blacks and Indians are lionized), and just listen to what is being batted back and forth on questions like race, religion and politics.

It's liberating.

[Dante]

Not that I needed to hear another word from Rob Tannenbaum on this subject, but it seems a little strange, at the very least, that he gets to do his interview by email -- a luxury that John Mayer certainly was not granted. I doubt that Tannenbaum would sound as articulate, or as fatuous, if he had to answer these questions in person or over the phone.

[Rachel]

I'm a black woman who thought the interview was hilarious and I still think John Mayer is hot.

[Michelle]

Ph Diva....Sista you are on point!! They were 2 racist males who had a good-time objectifying and degrading black women. Its amazing how during slavery..WHITE MEN...would not leave black women alone. Now since slavery is over and Black Women DEMAND respect, she is repulsive and unattractive. Go Figure ???

[Sage]

Degraded Alex Haley's legacy? The man whose sensationalized TV version of his book probably did more damage to race relations in the US than any single event in the 70's? Probably not.

[rohan]

dude has finally got his karma.
hopefully he will open his smart*** mouth only to sing from now on.
but, honestly, i hope he'll just go away and i dont have to hear his voice ever again on the radio!!!
what a douchebag!

[bb]

interesting conversation. intelligent insight. but the music and pompous cool guy flash made him lame long before he rammed his boot down his throat.

[diane]

What of Meyer's horribly homophobic comments? It is odd that this is not garnering outrage too. He feels the need to justify his kiss with Perez as an act of self-destruction and an attack on Perez. Oh, okay...you didn't kiss a guy; you just sexually assaulted him.

As for Tennenbaum's assertion that Meyer was merely commenting on "the discrepancy in his dating history, which has been exclusively white, and the attraction he feels for women of different races:" Yeah, right. It was clear that Meyer was saying he is not attracted to any women of color and is not open to dating any women of color. Lucky for them. This guy clearly has major sexual issues.

[Patty]

Tiffany & PhDiva you should proofread/spell check your comments before posting them > Failure to do so makes you look ignorant and discredits your opinions :(

I think I got a tension headache just from reading those posts. Talk about uptight!

People need to chill out a bit there are far bigger fish to fry :p

[kanank]

I haven't read the interview. From what I read the excerpts of his interview in some publications, some of the things are definitely offsensive and very insensitive. I wonder how people like with so much influence and big fan base say things like that. But then, there are so many rap singers do so much harm to the entire society . I am shocked why many of the african americans who complain about John Mayer don't get outraged by the rap singers. What John Mayer said pales in comparison to the harm that is done to the whole African American families and culture. Get a grip, people. Don't just complain with no common sense

[Stacia]

If people weren't talking about his use of the n-word, they'd be talking about the rampant sexism and homophobia also in the interview. You can't say Mayer is introspective and intelligent about social issues when he says something as stupid as women are rebelling against a "double standard that’s lasted for a hundred years." Yes, because sexism didn't exist until 1910. And the less said about his "almost as if I hated fags" comment, the better. The entire interview was a bigotry buffet.

[SA]

The article mentions that Mr. Mayer is "smart" and we all know he loves his Twitter (in more ways than one). If he is this smart, and based on his past experiences with the press, surely he knows that his comments are going to be "Twittered down" and the emphasis will be placed on the more negative aspects and/or choice of words that will fit into a 140 word tweet resulting in even more publicity than the original article. Yes, he is smart AND calculating.

[Courtney]

Mayer was not being racist at all. I'm sure that if he would have put an "a" at the end of the word, it would have been acceptable since that seems to be the only "acceptable" form of the word. I will always defend John Mayer. You may not get him, but I do. He said it, he apologized, now GET OVER IT!!!

[Tammy]

People please, it's Playboy! Who cares about this trash magazine and what the writer thinks! It's not a real magazine, it's trash! Oh, John Mayer made people forgive and forget Kayne West. Kayne West didn't insult a race! Just a over exposed country singer that cannot sing! How can you even compare the two?

[Brad]

In response to PhDiva:

"6. I have a Ph.D. I am not an idiot who can only read 140 words at a time as Tannenbaum implies. I umderstand exactly what I was reading. "

What does the word "umderstand" mean?

I don't "umderstand."

It is my view that this whole article has been blown way out of proportion. Did John Mayer say some racially insensitive things? Yes. But was the context matter in which he said them joking? Yes.

Stop being so sensitive everyone.

[Veronica Lodge]

PhDiva wow! Your response was amazing. It was certainly more accurate and profound than Mr. Tannenbaum's article. And yes I agree. Why would he even throw that question out there? To degrade not only black women... but ALL women in general, ti's just downright disgusting. Anne Powers does raise a good question about Kanye incident. And I do think this whole John Mayer thing will soon be forgotten because he's a white popstar that put his foot in his mouth.

But I'll never forget. Any sort of apology at this point isn't even enough. I think both Tannenbaum and Mayer are douchebags. They really were having themselves a good ole white boy diss on black folks. It's really sad.

[PhDiva]

1. When white people tell black people to "stop being so sensitive" and to "lighten up" about racism, they are basically saying that we should tolerate being insulted, maligned, and degraded because refusing to tolerate it interferes with their fun, that we should put the comfort and pleasure of white people before our own sense of dignity and integrity. The same is true when men say this to women, and when straight people say it to gay people. Bigots want the freedom to say offensive things without responding to anybody else's criticism.

The dignity of an entire group of people is more important than the personal pleasure one person takes in being bigoted and malicious. Sorry. You have the first amendment right to say racist and sexist things, and I have the first amendment right to call you a white supermacist misogynistic homophobe.

2. One more point about Tannenbaum: When Tannenbaum tries to defend Mayer by saying that lots of white men share Mayer's beliefs, he is trying to trick the reader into believing that Mayer only expressed a "preference." Mayer did not merely express a preference. His references clearly indicated that his lack of attraction to black women was based on a sense of their being racially inferior to him. Tannenbaum is basically saying that lots of white men believe that black women are racially and sexually inferior to them so we shouldn't question John Mayer when he expresses this belief. Well, lots of people beat their children. Lots of men rape women. The fact that lots of people do something does not make the belief or behavior acceptable.

Tannenbaum KNEW that he was distorting John Mayer's meaning by pretending that it was less offensive than it was - a preference rather than a statement of white supremacy, which was the term Mayer used. Tannenbaum thinks we are too stupid to notice the games he's playing. Let's prove him wrong, shall we?

3. Yes, I should have proofread when I first commented above. I was running out the door, multitasking, and trying to write a comment all at the same time. However, none of my typographical errors confused or corrupted my meaning. If somebody didn't understand what I wrote, it says more about their intelligence, or lack thereof, than mine.

However, if you want me state this in simple terms here it is: John Mayer is a racist misogynist. Rob Tannenbaum is a racist misogynist. They BOTH participated in denigrating black women and should both be held accountable. Mayer was alone in his use of the N-word and the homophobic F-word. I don't hold Tannenbaum responsible for that. However, I do hold Tannenbaum responsible for the attack on black women and for insulting black people's intelligence in the above article.

Read the entire article. You'll see that when it came to attacking black women, specifically, Tannenbaum threw the first punch with his question about "black women throwing themselves" at Mayer. Mayer took the bait and devoured it, but Tannenbaum started that discussion. Then, Tannenbaum demanded individual names so that he could ensure that individual black women would be humiliated and degraded. John Mayer followed Tannenbaum's lead and then went beyond it. However, Tannenbaum started the attack on black women and sustained it. Let's hold Tannenbaum accountable for his role in this racist, sexist, homophobic debacle.

Again, I conclude on the same point. Two racist, sexist white men got together and trashed black people in general and black women in particular along with women in general and the entire LGBT community. Now, they're both trying to pretend it wasn't that bad. They're lying. It was terrible.

[Rachel]

There are a lot of celebrities.. and non-celebrities.. that have their "oops" moments.
He apologized... now it's time to move on. There are more important things to be discussing than whether or not John Mayer likes black woman on his penis. Come on.
He's a musician. It's time to focus on the musician and his talent.

[Asa Baber]

PhDiva,

You're coming across like the jealous girlfriend who is convinced her boyfriend is 'checking out' another woman when, in fact, he is not. He could be looking at a door and she'd be emphatic that evil was afoot. Your passion (or fervour) has clouded your judgment and caused you to infer racism and sexism into the comments that did not exist. It must be terrible to bear the burden of that chip on your shoulder.

[PhDiva]

Asa, if you are too ignorant to recognize the racism and sexism in what Mayer said, then you are too ignorant to have an adult conversation about race and gender. You are on Mayer's juvenile political level, which is why you identify so strongly with him.

Let's be clear here. The white men who are defending Mayer -including the interviewer, Rob Tannenbaum - are doing so because they share his racist, sexist beliefs about black women, black people, and women in general. That's what's really going on here.

For the record, I am not attracted to John Mayer, and I never have been. I don't know any black women who are. I believe Mayer is doing black women a favor by staying from us.

I am attracted to intelligent, adult men, not bratty little boys. The idea that black women want to have sex with Mayer is his and Tannenbaum's delusion. It has nothing to do with reality. One of the reasons black women have been so shocked by this whole thing is that we never expressed any sexual interest in John Mayer. We have no idea why Mayer and Tannenbaum are coming after us.

Asa, comparing me to a "jealous girlfriend" is absurd. It comes out of left field. It has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Of whom would I be jealous? The white women who are stuck with John Mayer's vulgar, pornographic misogyny? They can keep him. You may find his disgusting misogyny sexy. I don't.

The real reason you compared me to a "jealous girlfriend" is that whenever men want to shut women up, they try to tell us that we're irrational or that we "sound like a jealous girlfriend" even when we are perfectly logical or when the "jealous girlfriend" reference has nothing to do with the topic, as is the case here. The purpose of these accusations is to intellectually and sexually humiliate political women into being silent and to let other women know that if they are political that they will also be intellectually and sexually attacked.

Some women fall for this. I don't. Asa, the submissive and insecure women you associate with - they would be the only ones who could tolerate you - may be vulnerable to this transparent and idiotic manipulation. I'm not. I know the exact brand of sexism you're selling, and I'm not buying it. Better luck next time.

[Asa Baber]

Ouch... and the chip gets bigger. Along with it comes a vicious argumentum ad hominum attack. I expected more from you PhDiva. Perhaps that was my mistake. Since you failed to comprehend a simple, relevant simile positioning how your diatribe was coming across, it's not surprising that when combined with your uncontrollable predisposition that white men are racist and sexist, you slandered Mayer.

Since we're stating things "for the record", I'm not a John Mayer fan, I couldn't tell you a single song of his, I did read the full Playboy article online, I don't buy the magazine for the pictures OR the articles, and you over reacted to this.

Cheers.

[MissNadine]

Thank you, PhDiva! Mayer is misogynist, homophobic, racist, and the worst ex-boyfriend on earth. Tannenbaum is making no sense at all.
Asa- "white privilege." Google it. Unpack the knapsack. You don't get to step on my foot and then inform me that it doesn't hurt.
It is not a chip on my shoulder, it is the pain of listening to white people tell me what it means to be black and how to interpret the world around me. How dare John Mayer speak about "what is it being black?"--he has no idea, and I can only hope his black celebrity friends let him know that. How dare Tannenbaum claim that black people should laud Mayer for his degrading, insulting, facile statements? He displayed absolutely no concept of what blackness is, and rather than self-awareness, nothing more than self-obsession. That he would prefer masturbation to a human connection comes as no surprise.

[Unknown]

All rubbish! He is just filled with hate. Such poeple should be ignored! He has no sense. His comments are only as important as you make them. An empty vessel tends to make the loudest noise. He is looking for attention.