Veteran sues federal government for removing upside-down flag

A civil rights group filed a lawsuit Tuesday against the Veterans Administration, claiming the free speech rights of a 67-year-old Army veteran were violated when a U.S. flag he hung upside down was confiscated.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California filed the federal suit on behalf of Robert Rosebrock, one of a group of veterans who protested the VA’s land-use policies every Sunday for the last two years outside its West Los Angeles complex.

After protesting for more than a year with the U.S. flag hanging right side up on a fence outside the property, Rosebrock hung it upside down last June as a distress signal to bring attention to the group’s cause, according to a statement released Tuesday.

Rosebrock was cited six times for “unauthorized demonstration or service in a national cemetery or on other VA property," according to the ACLU.

Veterans Administration police demanded Feb. 28 that he take down the flag. When he refused, they removed it.

An associate director for the Veterans Administration e-mailed Rosebrock to say that he and other demonstrators “may not attach the American flag, upside down, in VA property including our perimeter gates,” the ACLU said.

The ACLU contends the government has no right to selectively enforce the display of the flag.

“The government cannot say it’s OK to hang the flag one way but not another just because the latter expresses a message that the government does not approve of,” ACLU attorney Peter Eliasberg said in the statement.

The Veterans Administration did not immediately return calls seeking comment.

Rosebrock and other veterans have held their protests in a part of the complex that the Veterans Administration plans to lease as a park. But protesters argue that the space should be used for the benefit and care of veterans.

-- Tony Barboza

Photo:  Robert Rosebrock, left, a 67-year-old Army veteran, and Ernie Hilger, a Army veteran, hold the U.S. flag upside down as a distress symbol, after a news conference at the Veterans Administration property in West Los Angeles, where the VA is planning to lease the area for use as a public park. Credit: Allen J. Schaben  / Los Angeles Times

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Comments

[Kevin]

If he wanted to burn the flag on VA property, would that be OK?

[G Holleran]

As a foreigner who lived in your country for 11 years I think I may have a perpective on this.
This man was protesting obviously, his form of protest was to use an insulting action to his country and as a veteran he should know better. I think he should protest and have his say- that is what freedom of speech means, but when his freedom tramples on others freedom to respect their flag and country - as this surely does then he needs to find a way of protesting that does not.
I frankly believe the USA is a great country- flawed to be sure- but spitting on it in this way does not assist in unity or setting wrongs right.

[Oz]

"The ACLU contends the government has no right to selectively enforce the display of the flag."

Actually the government does have this right. Under the US Flag code the very first admonition against disrespect of the flag is that:

" The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property."

Protesting land use policies hardly qualifies as extreme danger.

[Peter Brown]

He was "expressing an instance of extreme danger to property" intended for the sole purpose of serving US veterans which was being considered for an alternative profit-making venture - thus, a real disrespect to the men and women who gave their lives to defend the nation.

Rosebrock has a problem with the V.A. allowing outsiders to use facilities -- including tennis courts -- that not even veterans can access. He also decries a public park that's planned for the grounds that were set aside for disabled veterans.

[Sunny]

People where flags on their butts and the feds don't go after them...

[mary]

Doesn't the Federal govt have anything better to do... like, break up child porn rings and other real crimes? The flag being hung upside down is representative of how people feel about what the Bush regime and unregulated big business did to this country.

[BlackhawkCE]

A veteran who lived and fought for our flag would never burn it, those gentleman have earned their rights with their blood in battles you can't even imagine. As a veteran it hurts me deeply to see colors faced downward, but sometimes it takes drastic measure to get our point across. American people just don't care anymore unless it affects their life, so don't act like you care, do something or get out of our way because we mean business.

[rs]

Good for them. Every flag in the country should be flying upside down to show our entire nation is in dire distress.

[Stephanie]

This seems a little overblown. The issue here should really be about what he is protesting about - the VA leasing VA property as a park. As someone who has lived in L.A. for 25 years, I can say that Veterans still need a LOT of help and leasing property out that has the potential to help more veterans seems like an irresponsible move.
And really, his perspective is that this is an extreme situation which required the use of an upside down flag (not to say I agree) and he wanted to bring light to the issue - which he now has. It seems this guy is well intentioned. Taunting someone with "Go back to Vietnam" is pretty cruel and heartless.
And to G Holleran, you have a misunderstanding of freedom of speech and logic in general. Wikipedia: "Freedom of speech is the freedom to speak without censorship and/or limitation. The synonymous term freedom of expression is sometimes used to indicate not only freedom of verbal speech but any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used. " The only exception is hateful speech, which this clearly is not. It should be very clear that the very idea of freedom of speech is likely to hurt SOMEONE'S feelings or make them feel disrespected.

[Zach]

"I think he should protest and have his say...when his freedom tramples on others freedom to respect their flag and country..."

This does no such thing. How he hangs his flag does not affect how I hang mine. We're not guaranteed that just because we believe or feel something, no one can do anything contradictory to our beliefs because itmakes us feel something we don't like. The right to not be offended is not among our rights, something people seem to forget more and more these days.

That said, there are codes on properly displaying the flag, which does make it a special case. Unenforced though the usually are, I wonder if that will factor into this?

[Gordon Duff]

I am a decorated Marine combat veteran, 100% disabled and am deeply ashamed of supposed veterans who whine about a flag being displayed in the distress mode.
These same vets have time to whine but won't come out and work for the welfare of our soldiers who are now living on the streets, denied healthcare, denied disability pensions and being pushed aside by older vets, all except for those who also are displaying the flag in distress mode.
The distress is simple. Few Americans are caring enough for their soldiers and veterans and too much for phony issue they think are patriotic. Patriotism is loyalty to those who sacrifice for their country, not whining about those who care and those who are working to help.
I thank the ACLU for supporting the Constitution, the same document that I swore an oath to protect and defend. Those who would pretend to save the flag but spit on the Constitution need a lesson in citizenship, service and doing Gods work.

[Bob Handy]

I can understand why some uninformed writers may feel that Mr. Rosbrock and his fellow veterans may have gone to extremes by flying the flag upside down.

But let me give you a little perspective from a fellow veteran. We have tried for two years to have the 16 acres returned to exclusive veterans use as the original deed and documents directed to no avail. I personally have been part of this protest. We have contacted Congressman Waxman in who’s district the VA property sits, he has ignored our pleas to reconsider his support of an elite group of very rich constituents who have an long term, no fee lease on the land. I have contacted General Shinseki and Tammy Duckworth the Secretary and assistant Secretary of Veteran Affairs with no response. We have protested for two years attempting to have the land returned to veterans use, to no avail.

I should mention that veterans across the United States, Republican, and Democrats declined to state and others have supported our efforts to get the land back for the exclusive use of America’s veterans.

But let me speak to MrX’s comments, I do not know where come, but here we have the right to express ourselves guaranteed by our constitution. You to have that right guaranteed to you, and while I disagree with you I will defend you right to speak out. But in this case it is the veterans who rights are being trampled on by the Veterans Administration granting a long term lease to non veterans to use as they see fit, raising monies for their own coffers and not providing for the veterans.

To G Holleran you should read the THE FLAG CODE, Title 36, U.S.C., Chapter 10
As amended by P.L. 344, 94th Congress, Approved July 7, 1976 by the founding fathers.

The upside down U.S. flag is an official signal of distress. It is not meant to be, and is not officially recognized as any type of disrespect when so displayed for the right reasons. To the contrary, here is the relevant part of the US Code of Laws regarding how to fly the flag when in distress.

To OZ, If you are as you claim, a decorated veteran I thank you for your service, but I would remind you of the oath you took To Defend The Constitution, that includes the FIRST AMENDMENT, you may not agree with our turning the flag upside down, but you fought to give us that right, an I thank you for it.

I too am a veteran of both the Korea and Viet Nam wars (1949-1970)and while I sometimes disagree with some ones speech, actions or written word, I will defend their right under that Constitution

To the other writers who recognize Mr. Rosebrock right to express our concern for our fellow veterans I say thank you.

I would suggest to all that they consider contacting General Shinseki at eric.shinseki@va.gov Ms Duckworth at Tammy.Duckworth@va.gov and Congressman Waxman at the Capital Switchboard 1 800 828 0498 and ask for Waxman’s office

Respectfully

Bob Handy USN Ret

[Carol]

I am surprised to see so many people do not know that the flag turned upside down is a distress signal. Robert Rosebrock is a courageous man who is concerned with his fellow Veterans having to be homeless because of the VA's outrageous land use. Give this man the respect he deserves. He is doing what many of you would not have the courage to do. It is easy to sit back and complain. Some of you complaining should be out there helping this man to get the Veterans back the property that is rightfully theirs. Shame on you. You are the one who are a disgrace.

[Concon]

Thank you G. Holleran! Well stated.

[wilson0004]

I respect the right to free speech, BUT NOT WHERE THE FLAG IS CONCERNED! SHAME ON YOU!! I too have served under this flag and have a great respect and love for it. This situation, in my mind, is not an SOS, as the land is going to be used in a respectable way for good. It will benefit families and hopefully bring a sense of peace to those who may go there.

[Bischoff]

Let's all return to basics now and pay attention to what is really happening here. Whether you agree with flying the Flag upside down or not, Mr. Rosebrock needed to make that determination because no one was paying attention to the land grab that has & was taking place.

When the farm land was originally deeded to the Veterans in 1888, for a Veterans' Home, there was NO Westside elite. Who knew that decades later the land would sit in the center of some of the most expensive land on the planet. But it is….and that's the way it is.

The Veterans Park Conservatory, the group that was able to finagle the 20 year lease at zero dollar$ is a Brentwood Homeowners Association. They do not want the VA there at all and they feel that that land is theirs, not the Veterans. They have the support of Waxman, Boxer and Feinstein because the politicians always cater to the wealthy. (That's how Mr. Waxman has been able to stay in office for over 30 years.) One of the primary reasons the Westwood VA has not been developed is because the elite want to continue to chip away at the land, bit by bit, so development becomes impossible. A school here, a stadium there, a parking lot, a golf course, a Theatre and now a 16 acre Park, for Brentwood to use, not for the Veterans.

I believe there is a ten year renewal extension option on the Park lease that's available to the VPC. Not bad for zero dollar$. In 30 years all the Nam Vets are dead and just the youngest Iraq/Afghanistan Vets will still be around. And there will still be no development of a Veteran's Home, but I bet there will have been more bits taken from Veteran's land…….. by bit by bit by bit.

That folks, is why Mr. Rosebrock turned the Flags up-side down, in distress, to get your attention. Make sense now?

Thank you Robert.

[Kiljoy616]

Posted by: G Holleran | March 16, 2010 at 02:39 PM
As a foreigner who lived in your country for 11 years I think I may have a perpective on this.
This man was protesting obviously, his form of protest was to use an insulting action to his country and as a veteran he should know better.
YOUR RIGHT YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING, SO DON'T POST REMARKS YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT.

UPSIDE DOWN FLAGS ARE USED TO SIGNAL DISTRESS. SINCE HE DOES NOT HAVE THE MONEY OR POLITICAL POWER THAT WHAT HE AND THE OTHER ARE IN.

I think he should protest and have his say- that is what freedom of speech means, but when his freedom tramples on others freedom to respect their flag and country
YOU COME EITHER FROM A THEOCRACY OR DICTATORSHIP COUNTRY, FREEDOM OF SPEACH MEANS JUST THAT " EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT I AM SAYING YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO STOP ME FROM SAYING"

I frankly believe the USA is a great country- flawed to be sure- but spitting on it in this way does not assist in unity or setting wrongs right.

AGAIN YOU HAVE NO CONCEPT OF FREEDOM, THE WAY HE IS DOING IT IS WHAT MAKES THE UNITED STATES A FREE COUNTRY AND WHAT MAKES THE COUNTRY YOUR COMING FROM NOT.

[Kiljoy616]

Posted by: BlackhawkCE | March 16, 2010 at 05:06 PM
A veteran who lived and fought for our flag would never burn it, those gentleman have earned their rights with their blood in battles you can't even imagine.
YOUR NO VETERAN, THAT FOR SURE, THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVE A RIGHT IS REAL VETERANS. PEOPLE WHO GAVE IT ALL FOR THE FLAG AND THE CONSTITUTION. A FLAG IS NOTHING, ITS WHAT IT STANDS FOR THAT MATERS, SO I KNOW YOUR NOT A VETERAN.

As a veteran it hurts me deeply to see colors faced downward, but sometimes it takes drastic measure to get our point across. American people just don't care anymore unless it affects their life, so don't act like you care, do something or get out of our way because we mean business.
AMERICAN PEOPLE? DO YOU MEAN AMERICAN CITIZENS, IF THAT WHAT YOU MEAN YES WE CARE BUT LIFE IS REAL NOT SOME FANTASY, IF HE WAS SERIOUS ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON HE WOULD GO AFTER THE ORGANIZATION THROUGH LEGAL MEANS OR EVEN BETTER HE WOULD TRY TO GET TO THE TOP OF THE VA SO THAT HE CAN DICTATE HOW ITS RUN. IS THAT NOT WHAT WE FIGHT FOR, FOR THE RIGHT TO POWER, IF NOT THEN WHAT DO WE FIGHT FOR, SOME DREAM OF UTOPIA, NOT HAPPENING.

[Kiljoy616]

Posted by: wilson0004 | March 17, 2010 at 08:14 AM
I respect the right to free speech, BUT NOT WHERE THE FLAG IS CONCERNED! SHAME ON YOU!! I too have served under this flag and have a great respect and love for it. This situation, in my mind, is not an SOS, as the land is going to be used in a respectable way for good. It will benefit families and hopefully bring a sense of peace to those who may go there.

The flag means nothing at all, its a piece of cloth made in communist china, worthless rag, its what it stands for that is what is important, that what the flag is all about. If the land was designated for veterans then that what its for. I for one think veterans don't get reality of life, if they want the VA to be better then take it back, with power, money, and politics now that is the true American way. Protest is fine but unless he has 10,000 behind him at that protest it will mean nothing.

[Owen]

Oh Please, most of you flag lovers think the flag is more important than the person, get a clue. The current flag stands for war and bigotry.

[stewart]

Stomp your feet, scream and shout, I give a rip less.

Just stop flying the flag up side down like a rag on a fence.

Spare every one else the bull we read here by those who are not much more than demagogues who would use the flag as a prop to make their politcal statement.