Church vandalism heats up gay marriage debate

The Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights sent out an e-mail this morning urging Catholics to call San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom to protest vandalism over the weekend at Most Holy Redeemer Catholic Church in the city’s Castro District.

The e-mail claims that opponents of Proposition 8, which amended the California Constitution to ban gay marriage, defaced the church with swastikas alongside the names of Pope Benedict XVI and the San Francisco archbishop.

“Part of the blame for the latest attack goes to San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom and the San Francisco Board of Supervisors,” the e-mail said, because “they say nothing” when “gay men dressed as nuns show up at Mass.”

On the other side, proponents of gay marriage held an “Equality Camp” over the weekend in San Francisco to train activists to “leverage social media/socialnetwork/Internet-based activities” around fighting for gay marriage and combine them with traditional political organizing.

Proponents of gay marriage are also organizing a nationwide demonstration this Saturday against the National Defense of Marriage Act, which was passed by Congress in 1996. Meanwhile, the legal wrangling over Proposition 8 continues.

Opponents of the measure filed a lawsuit challenging its legality the day after the election.

The Supreme Court could hear arguments as soon as March.

-- Jessica Garrison

Comments

[Tyler]

Quote

"Good
-Im glad
Maybe people will wake up and realize that the Catholics/Mormons/small minds that hate gay people ARE just as hateful as the facist Nazis.

You think its right take away a peoples rights?

Get over it. Its only graffitti on a stupid building you call a 'house of worship'.

There is no "holy place' worthy of 'worship' when there is hatred spewed from its pulpits."

This person saved me the trouble of having to explain that it was most probably gay activists who show this same type of thinking. I do not agree with the church on many things but defacing a church is outrageous and should be fully investigated into

[Andrew]

Ok...Ok...Zach, I'm sorry for calling people ignorant. I'm the ignorant one for thinking that the gays had something to do with the vandalism. I don't know where I got that idea from.

[Zach]

Andrew, there's nothing "obnoxious" about pointing out the facts as they're presented. This source does not include the full graffiti, and it's not the only one (I know, I did "a little research" before I noted it), so people are quite justified in saying so. I thank you for providing that more complete source, and note you've still no place to tell people to "Wake-up people and stop passing the blame," because that spray can still has not been placed in anyone's hand. I don't see why it's "obnoxious" to point that out when Prop 8 backers sure aren't balking at passing the blame and weaving token cases like this into tales of gays terrorizing California.

[Andrew]

Zach, Here is that link you'd love to see...http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&article=3624

I'm not trying to ridicule anybody with names, I would just love for people to do a little research before they go out and make obnoxious claims.

[Stan]

> LChavez wrote: "in this democratic country ... we get to vote for what we want"

Tyranny of the majority is a serious flaw in democracy. One reason we have a consitution is to prohibit this tyranny. By making Prop 8 a constitutional amendment, it is clear the proposition's authors recognized that the constitution arguably gave marriage rights to gays and lesbians, and that they wished to change the consitition to take away these arguable rights.

If you want to understand why this prop 8 is wrong, substitute most any other constraint into the proposition, as in: "only people with IQ's above 125 may marry", or "a marriage is defined to be between two people of the same race". If "between a man and a woman" stands, it sets legal precedence, making other constraints on marriage that much more likely.

[Rain]

Oh, please.
What makes me laugh is that more than half of you are taking the church's word, without any concrete evidence to show that prop eight opponents are responsible for this.
This is no evidence. Nothing on this article at all.
Can Mr. Andrew point it out to me?
Or are you just reading what you want to read?

I also just LOVE how biased this article is.

I hope people have at least the mind to realize that prop eight opponents are being scapegoated by this incident.

Dee, you baffle me.

Remember: Marriage had nothing to do with religion in the first place. Being gay is not a choice. I mean, if you're straight, and I'm guessing you are, would the thought of having a romantic relationship with someone of the same sex cross your mind? Most likely not, because you are straight.
The same applies to gay people.

[John]

tsk, tsk... maybe the right-wingers here should remember again those news about the bombed abortion clinics... Clearly, terrorist acts are the best argument against Prop.8...

[Zach]

I'd love to see a link to that information Andrew, because per the source here, the vandalism included, "swastikas alongside the names of Pope Benedict XVI and the San Francisco archbishop." While I've seen the "where is the love?" in a photo elsewhere, that's circumstantial evidence at best. Maybe you'll enlighten us poor, ignorant folk who believe in the principle of being innocent until PROVEN guilty...

[Andrew]

To those ignorant people who think the vandalism was not anti-prop 8 related....
Please, if your going to make a comment to an article that is reporting on graffiti found on a church, PLEASE READ what the graffiti says!!!! PropH8 was found on the church as well as "Where is the love". PropH8 has been the slogan for the anti-prop 8 campaign from the very beginning and there has been several police reports for the same type of vandalism within the area. Wake-up people and stop passing the blame.

[Teressa Spencer]

Mr. Alex, I agree with you. I've come to realize that some people who disagree do so because they believe unlike skin color being gay is a choice.

Of course any gay person knows that's ridiculous--why would anyone in their right mind make a choice they know will lead to so much heartache through discrimination, isolation and persecution? But these folks ignore that logic.

They ignore it because as long as they cling to the notion that being gay is a choice in their minds it absolves them of responsibility. They no longer have to be fair to gay people, or feel any guilt when they act like bigots toward gays. It's sad.

On top of that, clinging to this nonsense belief allows them to basically say, "You brought this on your self!" Meaning (in their minds) that there is no discrimination toward gays, it's all an acceptable result of their own making. It's really sick, and cruel.

[Thomas Alex]

There is no difference between the riots and marches and vandalism of the blacks push for Civil Rights and the push for Gay Civil Rights. You can't deny someone life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and expect them to just sit by quietly. You are ignorant and hypocritical.

[Stephanie]

Dee, your remarks are not only very untrue, they are very unChristian-like. As a Christian, Teacher and full believer in equality, the only "perversion" is using God to demean his children. We are ALL wonderfully and meticulously created in Christ's perfect image. God bless you.

[Dave-M]

Nobody knows who did it or why.

The fingerpointing by the Catholic League is speculation.

[Dave]

As angry as I was over the passing of Prop. 8, I have never vandalized a church or anyone's personal property but I do have to take a stand about those venomous remarks about the "men who dress up like nuns."

Those men (and yes women under those habits) are the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence and are a non-profit charity group that raises money for various charities. Including HIV/AIDS, Homeless Youth, Substance Abuse Recovery and more.

Oh and just to be clear, they are a 501c3 tax exempt religious organization (just like the Catholic Church and the LDS) and as such were not allowed to be involved in ANY Prop 8 business, the Presidential Election, etc.

They respected the rules and stayed out of any sort of campaigning except for voting as private citizens.

[Zach]

A day later and look how the sheep bleat about the "immature, irresponsible pervert" gays, still without any evidence against them! You're so easily led to hate, aren't you? How immature, AND irresponsible.

[Scott Morgan Lewis]

The Roman Catholic Church is one of the wealthiest superstition-based political organizations in the world. It has used its vast wealth to persecute gays, lesbians, and everyone else with whom it disagrees for over a thousand years. People (thousands and thousands of real people) were burned at the stake because of this organization's superstitious prejudices about human behavior. Now, when faced with nonviolent direct political actions carried out by those over whom they no longer hold the power of life and death, they use words like "attack" to describe male activists dressed as nuns showing up for mass. That's rich. If you're going to burn people at the stake and use your vast wealth to manipulate political systems to subjugate those with whom you disagree, you should be prepared for the consequences. If I were guilty of such egregious crimes against humanity, I'd be very happy to escape with only a few disrupted masses and some spray paint on my walls.

[James B. Moldovan]

Violence and vandalism are not good politically, not good morally. I understand people's frustration with the sad position of the Vatican, but the San Francisco parish "Most Holy Redeemer" is clearly the wrong target. It is a wonderful and open and courageous place. Its community has the guts to "straddle" this difficult time--which surely will change.

[andre l]

Good
-Im glad
Maybe people will wake up and realize that the Catholics/Mormons/small minds that hate gay people ARE just as hateful as the facist Nazis.

You think its right take away a peoples rights?

Get over it. Its only graffitti on a stupid building you call a 'house of worship'.

There is no "holy place' worthy of 'worship' when there is hatred spewed from its pulpits.

[Storm Christopher]

That wasn't paint on the wall - that was the Handwriting on the Wall.

[Alfred H.]

I wish those of you saying hateful anti-gay things on this space would stop lumping all gay people into one. I have known some really horrible straight people, and I see murderers and pedophiles and rapists on the news who are striaght, but I think it would be stupid to lump all straight people together as one big, no-good group of people.

People like me? Well I pay my taxes, obey the law, keep up my yard, and always do my best to make my parents proud. I volunteer in my community, am close to my whole family and have a large circle of wonderful friends. Some of us are gay. We are your teachers, doctors, lawyers, grocery baggers, transit workers, firefighters, janitors, and your neighbors.

My best friend is in the Army, and he is gay. Our society sends our gay police officers and military folks to protect us and possibly die for us, yet they can't get a simple marriage license at the courthouse when they fall in love.

I don't care if it's in the name of religion or anything else: it's shameful.

[Jason]

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." T. Jefferson

No one got hurt.
Some property got damaged.
So what.
Boo Hoo ... the Catholic church is sad that someone messed up their churchy-wurchy.

The church can afford a little paint. They have the wealth of the billions of duped and disillusioned parishioners to pay for it.

Get real.

[Michael Whitley]

While I don't condone vandalism, a part of me feels like the bigoted churches who supported prop 8 should have expected this: if you put hate out in the world you shouldn't be surpised when it comes flying back in your face.

[fern]

Ever thought the anti gay Christians could have done it?
Hitler burned the Reichtag and accused the communists.
And it worked???

[callie]

Okay, so in this same line of thinking...
anyone who sees someone else stuffing their face with a fat burger and not saying anything is responsible for their obesity, and later their heart attack?

[Flex]

How is the swastika vandalism related to prop 8? It sounds like the bigoted catholic church is illogically connecting the dots and making stalkerish accusations. If "religious" people believe in god, why do they obsess about everything gay?

I am so disgusted with religion!

[Randy]

The best argument for Proposition 8 is the immaturity and irresponsibility of those who oppose it.

[Dee]

This sounds like hate speech to me and should be prosecuted as such. Call it what it is...discrimination and mind control. Gays are immature, irresponsible perverts. That is how they have always been thought of throughout history, why should it be any different now? Just because we have become more tolerant doesn't mean that they have become more normal.

[Jack Henry]

Hate speech spewed from the pulpit and the Vatican is countered by hate speech painted on the walls of the church. Tit for tat. Neither is better or worse than the other. Both are bad. Although, the Church has certainly executed quite a few staggeringly barbaric acts throughout history. The Inquisition. The Crusades.

[Vic]

Ahhh the so very very tolerant homosexuals. A liberal is someone who will defend to the death your right to agree with him.

[Kelsieb]

Nobody agrees with defacing others's property. But if the church is appalled at a little unwanted paint on a wall, while sanguine about millions of people not being able to choose whom they will and will not marry, then that is nearly as much magical thinking as believing in transsubstantiation. If the church is willing to legislate the marriage choices of people not even members of the church, this paint on the wall pales in comparison. Wake up.

[LChavez]

It really saddens me that in this democratic country where we get to vote for what we want, a few still see force and violence as the answer.The democratic system was created for a reason, to avoid forcing changes thru violence and force.

The gay community has chosen to force people to change thier minds and donate to thier causes, forced proponents of Prop 8 to change thier views and now forced them to suffer violence at our most holiest of places- our churches. These are the same people who want the responsibilty of marraige but they want it thier way, not the democratic way.

You did not see poeple rioting all the gay bars and gay clubs when the supreme court justices overturned the peoples vote to define marraige as between a man and a woman. We went thru the democratic process.

[Jim]

This is very unfortunate, and vandalism is never an appropriate way to ventilate frustration. However, given the animosity the Catholic Church drummed up by taking a hateful stance against legal equality, they should consider themselves lucky that this is all that's happened. After all, it's really no worse than what happened to my anti-8 church in the weeks before the elections, and we're not blaming the city of Los Angeles for the actions of a few hateful Prop 8 supporters.

[Truth]

Even if 8 gets overturned, these "children" shouldn't be allowed to marry.

[john]

The anger is justified, the vandalism is not. This is no way to win friends and influence people. Actually I wonder if this is a misdirection operation by the pro-8 people.

[K2 in Pasadena]

When you deprive people of their civil rights, when you make them second-class citizens based on nothing more than tradition and bigotry, then you are going to have angry people. Proposition 8 must be overturned.

[Cindy]

I love it when gay men dressed as nuns visit the church!

[William K]

I am a supporter of marriage equality who campaigned against Proposition 8 and will lend aid to any future effort to overturn it at the ballot box. I support the peaceful exercise of First Amendment rights by both pro- and anti-Prop 8 partisans.

But I utterly and unequivocally denounce this repugnant attack against a house of worship and urge leaders in the anti-Prop 8 effort to do the same.

Based on the facts as reported here, I'd also urge the SF district attorney's office to investigate whether a hate crimes prosecution might be warranted.

This is just wrong. And -- anticipating someone advancing the argument that the Catholic church was wrong to oppose gay marriage -- two wrongs don't make a right. Ever.

Shame on whomever did this!

[corntrader19]

A man that would dress up as a nun and show up at Mass not only has a seared conscience but a sick mind. These people have no respect for God's house.

[Captain Howdy]

Would this not constitute a hate crime?

[Zach]

Sounds like pretty run-of-the-mill anti-Catholic vandalism, the likes of which we saw LONG before Prop 8. Does the Church have any proof of what motivated it, or have they merely latched onto an opportunity to smear their political opponents?