Are Mormons the victims in the Prop. 8 fight?

There has been growing chatter among conservative writers in recent days about the anti-Mormon tone of those protesting the passage of Proposition 8, which bans same-sex marriage in California. The argument: The tough talk would not be used on another religious group. In today's Times, Jonah Goldberg says:

At a pro-gay-marriage rally in Los Angeles after the vote, chants of "Mormon scum!" were reported. Envelopes containing white powder have been sent to Mormon temples in California and Utah; vandals hit other temples. Lists of businesses to boycott -- essentially Mormon blacklists -- have sprung up on the Internet. The artistic director of the California Musical Theatre resigned because of pressure after it was revealed he gave $1,000 to a pro-Proposition 8 group. It's amazing. Hollywood liberals, who shout "McCarthyism!" as a first resort, see nothing wrong with this. If Jews were attacked in this way for giving too much money to a political cause, Barbra Streisand would already have a French passport.

At Mormon Times, there's the argument that the Mormon role in Proposition 8's passage has been greatly exaggerated.

--Shelby Grad

Photo: Demonstrators at an anti-Prop 8 rally gather outside the Mormon temple in West L.A. on November 6. Lawrence K. Ho/Los Angeles Times.  

Comments

[ShellyGirl]

I agree, the tactics used are undemocratic. Targeting one group is undermining the will of the people.

On the other hand, the Mormon church is much bigger than this. They will continue to do great humanitarian work around the world. They will continue to be good neighbors. They will continue to uphold the gospel of Jesus Christ and his plans for us as families and husbands and wives. Defending the gospel is not hating gays, it is loving Christ and his plan for us.

[Bruce]

When you throw the first punch, don't pretend to be "the victim."

[Jeffrey Harmon]

Fighting what a few—with big media mouths—are labeling as "bigotry" with outright religious bigotry seems odd to me too.

[RB]

The Jews wouldn't have spent so much money to spread anger, fear and lies. The Jews would have never put their words and money toward something that was going to cause so much pain for a minority group.

[Allen]

Ahh, but what -- exactly -- constitutes the "first punch?" Was it the LDS participating in a legal democratic process? Or was it earlier gay-rights activists pushing legal actions to have earlier democratic processes overturned?

This wasn't the first punch; it was simply another punch in a very long process. Regardless, the tactics used by protesters in the days since the election haven't measured up to the "tolerance" that they hitherto professed to believe in. Their actions demonstrate that tolerance is a hollow watchword that only applies to their beliefs, not to those of others such as the LDS.

[squeegeeman]

"throw the first punch" ??? I thought we were all participating in the political process as legally provided for in California. Since when has speaking out for your beliefs and voting accordingly been grounds for blacklisting and being called names?

[common sense]

"Was it the LDS participating in a legal democratic process?" The LDS, as a tax exempt religious organization, is not meant to be participating in any political activity.

Also, as far as "the will of the people," we are talking about a simple majority. Should whites be able to amend the constitution to expel any Muslim who gets a traffic ticket? Under the logic posted here, that would be the will of the people if 50.1% of people voted for it. Doesn't make it any less wrong or discriminatory.

[stevo]

Please. Teenage gays are attempting suicide every day across this country because of the lie they are raised with telling them that the worst thing that could ever happen to them is to be gay. It's a lie and it's a dangerous lie. Anyone who stands in the way of gay rights now has blood on their hands...and calling him scum is letting him off easy. Prop 8 was nothing more than keeping the stigma of homosexuality alive and hating. People are starving in the world and Mormons are working hard at getting people to spend $70M to keep this lie alive? And they do it with a smile?? Well thank Mormons for waking the sleeping giant of the gay rights movement...this will be their legacy, their contribution to humanity.

[stevo]

uh...the importance of equal civil rights trumps name-calling. aw, the poor little nazis getting called nazi-scum.

[Billsj]

Some of the homosexual activists are very clever. They recognize that Mormons have already been demonized in American society. Since the earliest beginnings of Mormonism, the faith, which simply claims to be a re-establishment of the original church of Jesus Christ, has been the target of severe persecution. Some so called “Christian Churches” have made the defamation of Mormons a regular topic of their Sunday school lessons. For decades they have worked tirelessly to spread misunderstanding, confusion, fear, and even hate of the Mormons. As a result, if the homosexuals can turn the issue away from defining what marriage is to a fight with the Mormons, they know this strategy will bring support to their side. After all, people blinded by bigotry toward Mormons aren’t going to give any thought to the real issue. They are only happy to have yet another opportunity to join in the hate-speak about Mormons. In addition to being a very effective target, Mormons are a very safe target. In a news story interview last year, an actor and sometimes political pundit said that he feels free to make inflammatory statements about Mormons because they, “…are the nicest people in the world. They’ll never take a shot at me.” The interviewer asked, “So you can be bigoted against Mormons because they’ll just send you a strudel; the Mormons will bake you a cake and be nice to you?” The anti-Mormon responded, “That’s right.” Yeah, those homosexuals are pretty clever.

[Tom]

When 2% of the population (which is the Mormon demographic in California) end up contrtibuting 55% of the funding for a campaign against civil rights (Mormons contributed $22M of the $40M used by the Yes on 8 campaign to pass the amendment) I think we have the right to question the so-called "democratic process." By the way, I'm not sure why the majority has the right to abolish the fundamental rights of a group of its citizens anyway, especially by only a 4% margin, which is what Prop 8 won by.

History will judge the Mormon participation in this campaign, and I think you'll find that history will not be kind.

[Tom]

The Mormon church deserves everything they get. Gay marriage in California is none of Salt Lake's business. Especially a bunch of stuff old white men. I'm a Mormon and am sickened by what the church believes to be important. Gay marriage is no threat to the Mormon Church, and the arguments made that it is are purely ridiculous. My father is one of the Church's temple presidents and feels this is one of the biggest mistakes the Church has ever made. Where's the unconditional love and acceptance taught by Jesus? And the tolerance? Where's the "do unto others..."? Instead of simply doing temple work my father finds himself trying to explain why the Church would wade into such a ridiculous fray. Apparently trying to boost the Church'c public image is more important than teaching the ideals of Christ. So the Church deserves everything it gets. You picked the fight, don't cry if it doesn't go your way. And to the Church members who believe that this was "revelation", be clear, it was NOT. This was a secular plan hatched over a decade using opinion polls and networking with the Catholic church and others. Not revelation, rather as Ollie North said of the Iran Contra affair, "A neat idea". Yeah, neat. Let's hope the Church comes to the conclusion as Ollie did, years after the fact, that it was only a neat idea, "at the time".

[Chad]

Oh boo hoo. Those poor mormons.

As a gay man, I am told yet again that I don't deserve the rights that any other tax paying, hardworking human in a stable relationship has, but the Mormon Church is being picked on and called bad names, so THEY are the victim?

I used to teach high school and I had two students come out during my time there. Seeing those kids struggle due to religious families and the propaganda spewed by churches such as the LSD doesn't make me feel any sympathy for the church. As something they are quite fond of referring to says, "You reap what you sow".

[Bill Nye the Mormon Guy]

Common Sense @ 10:26... use some common sense.

1) The LDS refers to the MEMBERS (in other words individual TAX PAYING citizens) of a Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

2) The Church and any church for that matter has every right to participate in the democratic process as long as they stay within their given boundaries and regulations, which they have. You don't think a Church as well organized and financially stable as the Mormon church wouldn't consider every possible legal ramification before accepting allegiance to the yes on 8 Christian alliance and encouraging members to stand up for what they believe in?!

and

3) The doctrine of separation of church and state was an institution primarily posed to prevent the government from meddling with religion - not to completely strip the government of any religious encouragement/influence.

[Jim]

I'm sorry, but "live and let live" ends abruptly if you don't reciprocate. The Mormon Church got very actively involved in a move to repress a minority. You'd think they'd know better, as an oppressed minority themselves. Many, many gays and lesbians went from supporting the right of Mormons to believe as they wished to being very, very angry when the Mormon church took an active role in attacking our rights. Can you blame them? How many times do you expect us to let a schoolyard bully kick us before we start hitting back?

And, before you say it, yes, this was an attack on our rights. Would Mormons be OK with being required to have a civil union instead of a marriage because they're Mormon? If so, they should speak out now and clarify that position, as it would disarm the opposition very quickly.

And, for the record NO ONE in the gay rights movement supports the threats of violence against the Mormon church and no one knows who mailed the white powder or why. Both sides have had problems with bad behavior, so we need to be careful before casting stones.

[Shame on California]

$22 million+ dollars donated by the bigot Mormons. That figure is fact. Not exaggeration. They should be ashamed of themselves. Let us not forget that Hitler started with persecuting the gays before he moved on to the Jews. Mormons, each and every one of them, are no better than Hitler. Think it can't happen to you everyone posting here? Let it happen to the gays, then you'll be next.

[Mike]

"Defending the gospel is not hating gays, it is loving Christ and his plan for us." Um... gay marriage does not threaten a single gospel unless you feel that you need to remove all people who believe differently than you do from the country. Just because you have a gospel that tells you to hate the gays (or at least treat them as lesser creatures) doesn't make your behavior any less reprehensible, ShellyGirl. If Christ's plan for us involves discrimination against those who choose not to follow his teachings, maybe he doesn't deserve to be followed.

"After all, people blinded by bigotry toward Mormons aren’t going to give any thought to the real issue." Which is what, Tom? For people who like to pretend that "the culture war" is somehow about good Americans fighting to take us back to some idealized 50s, white picket fence nostalgia that never existed, they need to shove the sodomites back into the closet?

I'm not saying that all of the anger toward the Mormon church is 100% deserved, but certainly a good percentage of it was earned by the church's followers. Show me a rational, secular harm that gay marriage causes. Oh right, there isn't one.

[Ted White]

So someone can criticize my being gay due to his religious tenets but if I question those tenets I'm a bigot. It's quite the other way.

Somehow we've been sold this bill of goods that even the most thoughtful critique of religious beliefs that support injustice is the same as attacking the humanity of the adherents of those beliefs. This sets a double standard that we're buying right into. Groups can engage in political action but declare that discourse around their arguments is unfair because it's intolerant of their religion. What other sort of philosophy driving political activity gets that kind of kid-gloves treatment?

Some religious communities act upon their conclusion that their faith directs them to oppress gay people. I reserve the right to criticize ideas (and religions are nothing if not sets of ideas) that are used to harm me. It's too bad if that's unpalatable. It won't help us to appease our oppressors.

We should be careful not to engage in ad hominem attacks with Mormons, Catholics or anyone else. Respectful engagement on ideology is entirely legitimate.

[Randy]

One can choose to be married, one can choose to be Mormon. Choices can be protected and are legitimate. Civil rights are the result of creation by God. When a created characteristic is visible to all, and not a result of a choice, it cannot result in lesser rights. Subjective characteristics, such as homosexuality are not the basis for civil rights. Until this discussion becomes a discussion of objective civil rights, and not a subjective discussion of preferences and choices it will perpetrate injustice.

[Mark T]

"You don't think a Church as well organized and financially stable as the Mormon church wouldn't consider every possible legal ramification before..."

Yes, I'm sure they examined the legal ramification. What they didn't expect was to be hung out to dry by the Catholics and Evangelicals. Last week, the Catholic Church finally put out a statement supporting the Mormons.

Now, is the support of child raping mad men really needed? What does that say about the Mormons that so badly want to fit in to the "Christan" family?

[a lesbian]

i think prop 8 puts a limit on the constitutional rights as an american. by telling citizens that they can't marry and spend the rest of their lives with the ones they LOVE, that puts a strain on morral and individual choices. for adults, they can make their OWN choices and by telling them who they can't be with such as having same sex relationships is just like an abortion....UNFAIR! i think that soon enough people who voted yes for prop 8 will see what they have done. as far as i am concerned, people who voted yes, if you are married and have kids, i hope they are a same sex lover and they rip all your dignitity away. you are basically playing virtual cupid in this play and i hope you see who's lives you are destroying. at a certain extent everyone has a little respect from me but now, there are very limited people who i would piss on if they were on fire. as for the ones who voted yes.....sorry bout ya.

[Tom]

Stevo is right on track in some of his statements. It is true that Mormons have been persecuted from the beginning. As a result they have developed a huge victim complex. Everyone has picked on them and that has become a defining
part of their concept of themselves. They speak of everything as this or that battle. I find it extremely disturbing to embrace victimization as an important part of ones identity. I lived in Utah and saw it every day. In Utah they love to claim they are still being persecuted by the Federal Government because it owns most of the land there. They constantly scream to get the Feds off our backs, and and out of Utah, and lose it completely when the BLM or Forest Service assert the right to their own properties. Crazy. So this latest round of "victimization" plays right into their own view of themselves, and reinforces it. Mormons, the forever persecuted victims in a battle for the souls of the world. Get over it. I guess when you are constanly the odd man out, it helps soothe the soul by embracing the "victimization" as something of your own. If it wasn't for guilt and persecution, Mormons would have no collective identity at all.

[Shelly Girl]

There was an article yesterday that AIDS is primarily a gay disease. It is ravaging the gay community. The statistics show that gay behavior is also the direct result of the following:

A major study by the Kinsey Institute revealed that 78% of male homo-sexual "affairs" (relationships entered into with an intent of commitment) lasted less than three years. Only 12% lasted five years or longer.

Homosexual men are six times more likely to have attempted suicide than are heterosexual men

Studies indicate that between 25 and 33% of homosexual men and women are alcoholics.

Statistics give evidence of widespread sexual compulsion among homosexual men. The Kinsey study cited above revealed that 43% of the homosexual men surveyed estimated that they had "been intimate" with 500 or more partners; 28% with 1,000 or more partners.

In a survey reported in the official publication of the American Public Health Association, 78% of gay respondents reported that they had been affected by a sexually transmitted disease at least one time.

These are not good environments for children. These are symptoms of a sick belief system that you can do whatever you want without the consequences. This along with open disregard for public decency (Up Your Alley Festival, Gay Pride Parades), makes it very clear why homosexual behavior is not a marriage under the laws of God.

When we agree to have a Godless society, then maybe, just maybe you will see gay marriage, until then, you live in a democratic society that votes on standards for the whole of society. It never was a right to marry who you want, if it was there would be polygamy, bestiality, pedophilia and all other forms of alternative lifestyles standing in line.

[Jimmy Dean]

By definition homosexuality is an aberant genetic condition which most suffers feel no control over. They deserve our sympathy and help much like those that overeat, smoke or are addicted to drugs. All of these things are rooted in our genetic makeup and can be near impossible to overcome. One could simply give in to their nature as coded or resist with whatever tools are available to them. That choice does ultimately rest on the individual. I'm not advocating "Gay Treatment" centers because there isn't a demand for such, but let's not pretend that some genetic dispositions are harmless when statistically the gay lifestyle is fraught with danger and harm regardless of social acceptance.

[MKay]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints knows persecution well, but rises above it again and again. Individual church members are being attacked and blacklisted simply because they participated in the political process. It's unbelievable.

Sure, the LDS church took a position on Prop 8, but so did many other churches and other nonprofit organizations--many to oppose Prop 8. Ultimately, the voters want to preserve the traditional definition of marriage. It's that simple. It's not about hate or discrimination or civil rights.

Gay marriage advocates should learn from members of the LDS church about love, forgiveness, respect and kindness, even in the face of persecution. You can voice your opinion and hold to your beliefs without spewing hate and throwing tantrums. That only hurts your cause.

[Bill P.]

Well, we'll just see what the CA Supreme Court says. I'm opposed to Prop. 8; however, I think their determination will probably alleviate our last resort for some time, regardless of its outcome. Having said that, and in that case then giving the proponents of Prop. 8 their just (arguable) rewards, I suggest all well-funded LGBT organizations spend their own $22,000,000 (or more) to support a constitutional amendment disavowing all Mormon marriages and see if we can get 50.1% of the CA population to agree to that one.

[Zak]

1) This isn't a civil rights issues because Gay couples have every right that a straight couple has under California law. No ones rights have been taken away. Excuse me while I cry boo whoo because you have to fill out a different form than I do.

2) A Minorities religuoius marriage rights where tompled all over when state after state and then the feds voted and constitutionalized religious persecution in Anti-Polygamy laws. I think turn about is fair play.

[PBAR]

Gay's had every right to donate billions. They didn't. The Mormon "church" did NOT get involved in this. The members did. The gay community has shown their true colors through their hateful language. Can you show me any hateful words that a Mormon has shared in the debate? It seems terribly one sided to me. You lost and should get over it. Mormons are not hateful people. They only have beliefs.

[Tom]

Hey Zak,
Hate to disapoint you, but the Church was DIRECTLY involved in this measure. They enlisted BYU students to petition their California relatives to support it through telephone trees and email. They used satellite broadcasts from Church headquarters to Stake Centers for instruction about how to "win the battle". Bishops read from pulpits the Church's position, and gave instructions. They asked each member to devote a certain amount of time in support of the measure, and to donate money to the campaign. The Church's own website had links to a site to donate money. The Church also stated in a press release that it had donated cash to the campaign. So if that doesn't qualify as getting "involved" I'm not sure what does. If the Church hadn't gotten involved neither would its members, and the proposal would not have even made it to the ballot.
Please try to back up your emotions with facts.

As far as being hateful, I can tell you many Mormons are extremely hateful, and racist. I grew up in Utah, and lived there 40 years. Utah is one of the most racist, exclusive places you will ever find. If you don't think they're hateful, read the comments after any article in the Salt Lake Tribune or Deseret News. Reader forums there are absolutely awful.

[manaen]

Interesting that before the election, the No-On-8 folks insisted that their position would not lead to taxing churches that disagreed with marrying homosexual couples and that after the election, their position is to insist upon taxing churches that disagreed with marrying homosexual couples.
.
The talk of out-of-state influence on Prop 8 is misdirected: of the $38 million donated for No On 8, 21% came from out of state and 12% of the $36 million donated for Yes On 8 came from out of state. That's $8.0 million against and $4.3 million in favor.
.
The complaints after the election reveal the lack of principle in No-On-8 supporters. If this were a principled position, we would have heard much about it before the election. To complain only after losing reveals it's just a tactical dodge. As one astute observer wrote, the homosexaul community seems to have discovered two new "rights": to marry and to win elections.

[Tom]

Sorry, that last comment should have been addressed to PBAR.

And hey PBAR, does Mormons carrying signs saying "God Hates Gays" qualify as hateful words???

[Barry]

Are Mormons the victims??? Which one of their rights are being taken away? If they chose to put so much time, effort and money into removing the rights of a certain minority, then they should have to deal with the consequenses of the community which are not willing to sit back and take discrimination!

[Jay]

@PBAR

Re your challenge to "show me any hateful words that a Mormon has shared in the debate." All you have to do is go to the Deseret News or Salt Lake Tribune Web sites, look up articles on the Prop 8 debate, and read the comments. Mixed in with some serious and respectful discussion you will also find a disturbing amount of irrational and sometimes frightening homophobia from people who claim to be Mormons.

[Chrissypop]

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints knows persecution well, but rises above it again and again. "

Oh I think the victims of the Mountain Meadows Massacre would disagree.

"Gay marriage advocates should learn from members of the LDS church about love, forgiveness, respect and kindness, even in the face of persecution. "

Would you please explain that to the Tongan Ward members who beat up and sent to the hospital seven lesbians? Kindness? Love? Mere words to Mormons.

"That only hurts your cause."

Hmmm.... we tried that, it didn't work. How does it hurt our cause? What are you going to do, take away our right to marry again and again?

[L. Smith]

I occasionally read through comments like these and shake my head in puzzlement--not that advocates of 'gay marriage' are angry (they were unsuccessful where they thought they had a sure thing...that's upsetting).

What confuses me is the enormous leap in logic they make in their primary assertion: that anyone who voted (or contributed to, etc.) Prop. 8, therefore 'hates homosexuals' or wants to 'persecute gays.'

Apparantly, there is no possible way that I personally can feel that it is beneficial to me, my family, my community, and society at large for that society to both recognize and encourage marriage between a man and a woman. (Society's stamp of approval on that relationship is essentially what 'marriage,' in its civil role, has always been.)

If that's how I see marriage (on a societal level), and therefore feel that recognizing and encouraging man-woman marriage benefits society (primarily by establishing the best possible CHANCE for kids to be raised well and happily, by their own two biological parents), how, please tell me, does that equate to me 'hating' homosexuals?

Just because you call something 'hate' doesn't make it so.

[MC]

The gay community is attacking the Mormon Church because they are too terrified to consider all of the SECULAR votes for Prop 8. Sorry, but changing the definition of marriage and thereby the family and civilization just didn't fly with most people. Prop 8 DOESN'T DISCRIMINATE -- update civil unions and domestic partnerships to get the rights you want. But don't introduce 1st and 2nd graders to concepts of gay "marriage", i.e., gay sex. That's what really undid your movement....

[Peter Smith]

Just reading through these posts I get a real clear picture. Thoughtful, intelligent folks make reasonable arguements and explain the facts in a calm, matter of fact statements. Many of these seem to side with the LDS church and its members' position. The emotionally charged, disrespectful, and usually fact-less comments seem to be made more by those trying to advance the cause for homosexuals. Before the election, I was quite divided personally on this issue. Not any longer. The vigilante behavior of those attempting to advance the cause of homosexuals have helped me reach a conclusion - unfortunately it is not in their favor. While I wish them well, and hope they receive the "equal rights" they are looking for, I can no longer support them. Now you can come back to me and say "Don't let a few bad apples make you think poorly of the lot." The trouble I have is that as I have been surfing various blogs for the last four weeks, I have yet to see a thougthful, insightful, intelligent treatment of this subject by those supporting homosexual marriage. If there is one out there, please let me know. I'm frankly tired of reading all the jibberish going back and forth about how evil the Mormons are and am quite ready to read something FACTUAL.

[MC]

I don't hear any calls from the gay community to investigate the Universalist Unitarian Church and the new Episcapaleon Church for their political activities in favor of gay marriage. I drive by their huge banners every day in Studio City promoting various liberal causes. How about jerking away their non-profit status??? Or how about jerking away the non-profit status of the various Gay Community Centers around town for THEIR activism???

[An Average Mormon]

I think the gays had better re-strategize. History won't judge this kind of unfounded bigotry and hateful response to a fair democratic process very well. Right or wrong, Mormons exercised their constitutional rights. To treat them like this is the most hypocrtical thing the gay community could do right now and probably the most likely thing they could possibly do to hurt their movement in the long run.

[Zach]

Church and state were separated that NEITHER would interfere with the other, and churches in general would do well to remember that if you don't want politics at your door, don't send people out through those doors into politics.

This is not, and never has been, about the Mormons. Protests have happened in MANY other places, both religious and not, and many other people have been called out on their discriminatory vote. And you know what? That's free speech, which also gives others the right to talk back. You're no victim because people take nonviolent action against you based on something you did which hurt them. 18000 gay marriages in question, plus countless other gay families with children which now cannot get full benefits to provide for them, and we're supposed to be upset because people are saying nasty things about the Mormon church?

Are the blacklists wrong because they hurt good people? As wrong as the Montgomery Bus Boycott was in putting good bus drivers out of work, I suppose. Yes sir...taking rights away is a painful business!

[Johanan]

To single out the Mormons is the weakest, most bigoted thing the gays could possibly do given that everyone knows a whole host of churches were even more vocal in their support of Prop 8 than the Mormons were. It is true that the Mormons supported Prop 8 and that the Mormons probably organized at the grass roots level better than just about anyone else- but that's to be expected- Mormons organize well! They've had this reputation for a long time now. But, that doesn't necessarily mean that they feel any strongly about their values than the many Catholics, Evangelicals, and others who worked along side the Mormons. The gay backlach against Mormons is like a blind man with a shotgun shooting out at anything that moves.

[fern]

Proposition 8 was the uncool thing to do period. It is sad for the Mormons I stayed a few days with a family in Provo they were descendants of the founder of Salt lake, I got the full tour Young's house all of it but they were not pushy and very hospitable, I really feel sorry for what is happening to them. I would say the mistake lies with the CEO's of the church, they got talked into it by the Roman Catholics and Protestants and since they are very powerful money wise they gave out most I really believe these people gave to what they sincerely believed in, after all most of us people have been led to believe it is one man one woman, I know I would believe this except that to me it looked more like withdrawing a right given to a minority. This is sad and funny at the same time because the real culprits in the prop 8 affair were the protestants and Roman Catholics they didn't pay much, didn't suffer much and are laughing their heads off while saying they support the Mormons. Being Roman catholic by upbringing I would have directed my rage to the Roman Catholics church instead, the shame is for California to have accepted such a thing as prop 8 and let such lying and misleading without putting a stop to it. The concept of marriage is an ever changing thing, I myself prefer the marriage of a good Bordeaux wine with a Black Angus t-bone if interracial it's legal and great

[Feric Jaggar]

The labeling of the reaction against the mormons as undemocratic is pure nonsense. The essence of democratic government is that one or a group is free
to agitate for or against any thing or anyone. Using violence or vandalism is poor
form, no matter how angry one gets. McCarthyism is when the government takes action against a group or an individual for his/its belief system.
Having said the above, I, personally, feel that giving the mormons some scunnion
is a fine form of recreation. Their basically authoritarian approach to religion and life should not be encouraged in any pluralist, democratic state. Their theology is even sillier than most other religions'. Therefore, they should be given all the chances they want to suffer ridicule on behalf of their creed. Also, as to their stand on proposition 8, those who can't stand the heat should get out of the kitchen

[JR]

I am not gay and am anti Prop 8. I will always remember what the mormons did to my gay friends. It will color all of my decisions when I interact with anyone who is mormon. There are many more like me.

[G]

Marriage is not a fundamental right. Just because people love each other doesn't mean they should have a fundamental right to get married. Marriage is restricted by gender, by age, by relationship (not closer than first cousins), and by number (not more than one). Why does the restriction on gender violate the fundamental civil liberties of our country but the others don't?

[Bill Nye the Mormon Guy]

I NEED SOME HELP

So, these are a few of the outrageous allegations that are oozing from all of the recent news articles and comment boards against the Mormon involvement with the pro-marriage amendment:

1) Incorrect claims of Mormon hatred towards homosexuals,
2) Ignorant claims of Mormon desire to eradicate the country of gays,
3) False (and unqualified, no legal stamina) cries of religious "tax-exempt status abuse",
4) Mean spirited comparisons of Mormons to Nazis, and
5) Libelous cries of Mormon desire to strip minorities of questionable rights,

My question is this, when all of these childish fallacies are evaporated into the uneducated abyss of emotion from whence they spawned -- what is the REAL concern or surprise of the homosexual-activist community....

Is it,

That Mormons are WAY too INVOLVED in the democratic process? ( I mean come on Mormons, Mitt Romney had a go and he couldn't cut it - give it up right?)

That Mormons are WAY too ORGANIZED?

That Mormons are WAY too CAPABLE of mobilizing at a moments notice to hold signs in the road and knock on their neighbor’s door so as to talk about things that are important to them?

That Mormons are WAY too WILLING to donate time and effort to support a cause that they deem worthy?

That Mormons are WAY too WILLING to give freely of their monetary blessings to preserve the definition of marriage?

That faithful Mormons actually take to heart what their Leaders suggest?

Could it be that Mormons are WAY too DETERMINED to stand up for what they believe in, even when they knowingly and undoubtedly will face severe persecution for it?

hmmm... somebody help me out!

[overdubbed]

Sheesh, GLBT people are vicious and frankly they look evil in their actions and name calling.

Given that gay and lesbian people have FULL and COMPLETE civil rights already.. that means NOTHING is held back from them on the basis of their sexual preference -- with the only exception being that they cannot say that they are "married" but that they are in a "union", they have really nothing to complain about.

[Phil]

Critics forget:

Separation of church and state protects the church as well as the state. When a church inserts itself into the political process to strip minorities of their civil rights, they forgo that protection, not to mention their tax-exemption.

In my opinion, the backlash against Mormons is ultimately a good thing: It reminds religious organizations and individuals of the price they will pay by violating the separation and imposing their views upon a social minority.

[EverStudent]

It is clear from most of the comments here (and on other sites) that this issue has stirred up a lot emotion. I agree with many of the comments posted above that there seems to be lack of informed debate. I think it would be helpful if we all tried focusing on the merits of our own arguments rather than the flaws of others’.

My argument for proposition 8 is that we have a duty to clarify the law (especially when four judges take the liberty of misinterpreting its original intent to further their political beliefs). Changing the definition of marriage is corrosive to the fundamental building block of American (and most other) societies, and given the current divorce rates among heterosexuals, our society is already under enough stress.

Personally, I feel like the No on 8 campaign is squawking because they wanted the majority of voters to put their stamp of approval on their lifestyle, and they found out that most people’s values differ from their own. Please don’t argue that values should not be a part of the law unless you are ready to attack the basis of all American law. Values have always been a part of legislation. They only become a problem when a minority imposes them on the majority – not the other way around. That is what democracy is all about. Disagree? Why don’t we allow robbery, assault, etc… if they are mere examples of the survival of the fittest?

Further, we all have the same rights – including the right to be different. I am different and people frequently point that out to me. Sometimes it hurts, but if I wasn’t OK with myself I would probably change.

[oregon]

the hatred and persecution the pro same sex marriage crowd throws at others should simply be let go. We must not let it tempt us into dropping to their level of bitterness and hatefulness. One can never be happy when they are hatefully trying to destroy another. We must be as the great master instructed, "peacemakers." some would say if you are Christian it is a "weakness." Don't believe it. Stand for what you know to be true and live your live full of grace and peace knowing there is a redeemer who loves you despite yourself and live free truly free even when those who want to hurt you or destroy you becuase of what yo believe stand outside the door ready to attack.

[aj arizona]

A few years ago a UCLA study showed that as a group, Mormons live longer than any other group in America.

Also Homosexual men have a life expectancy equal to those born in 1850, about 45 years.

Who is living right here?

Mormons have endured more persecution than any of the fruits and nuts of California can throw their way. You don't scare us at all. You want to boycott everything Mormon or Utah? Good, our Hotels won't have to double wash the sheets with clorox anymore. More deep powder skiing and tranquility in our National Parks for us normal people.

We've had governors sign extermination orders on us, been kicked out of five states, marched into the western wilderness in the dead of winter. etc..., a few pansies who inflate their own power and influence are hardly worth losing any sleep over.

Besides, the rest of the Nation is not behind your cause. Pro Marriage is not a Mormon thing, you ignorant fairies, It's a 5,000 year old tradition, spanning all societies and cultures, red blooded Americans are simply trying to maintain the status quo, the antagonists with the new paradyme is the gay community.

You found your boogey man and its's the Mormons, open the other door fellas, and you'll find the whole Nation is against you!

48 states have banned homosexual marriage. 30 of those have codified this in their state constitutions. The only states it has ever been deemed legal (3 states, now back to 2), was done so by rogue judges, and never by the peoples houses, the legislatures.

Carry on you spoiled, narcicistic, petulant boobs. The world is also watching you with your boorish invasions of peoples sacred spaces, vandalism of churches and temples, dropping the n word, sending white powder, slamming little old ladies to the ground etc..

The world knows who is civilized and who has no more control over their emotions than they do their carnal impulses.

Oh yeah, your really doing yourself proud. You came into our space, and you want a fight? You got it. It's just that we will beat you through the democaratic process with dignity and decorum and not through threats and tantrums.

Grow up for hells sake. Follow Elton John, he has it right.

[John]

People seem to have an issue with the money donated by the Mormons. Something like $22 million dollars. It is quite a bit of money, yes. However, it was obvious the whole time that the Yes on 8 was collecting this much money. My question is why does the gay community be angry after the fact rather than raising more money during the campaign? It is sad and does not say much for how much the gay community wants marriage "rights" when they can't even raise as much money as a group who makes up only like 3% of the US population.

[Greg]

I'D SAY THE FOLKS WHO JUST LOST FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS ARE THE VICTIMS OF PROP 8

not the mormons.

[topic]

Please. If Jews or Catholics or Barbra Streisand had ponied up 10s of millions, gone door to door to door, produced slanted and demeaning videos full of half-truths and did their best to push discriminitory laws against homosexuals into the constitution, you bet we'd be there. But they didn't. Others did though, and no one comes anywhere close to the level of the Mormons. They hit, and they got hit back, and I feel like they deserve it all and more.

I feel the same way about all the other folks who even voted yes on 8, but the Mormons just happen to be on the top of the pile. If they don't like it, they shouldn't have climbed up there.

Regarding other minority and church involvment, note that a number of CA churches have joined to file suit to overturn Prop 8. Also joining in the suits to overturn it are the NAACP, Mexican-American Defense Fund and Asian Pacific Islanders League. You can see all the folks who have made an about face since the election by going to the CA Supreme Court website. The lawsuits are all there.

[Tom]

Responding to the other Tom above:

If heterosexuals pairings had never had a legal status, and for generations they had to secretly seek each other out in backstreet bars or face jail, unemployment or religious scandal, what do you think their culture would look like? What would their chances of lasting over 3 years be? What do you think the heterosexual rate of alcoholism would be? (for that matter, what do you think it is today?) And how could you possibly be against the ones trying to improve that situation?

Further, if same-sex unions in CA have exactly the same rights, responsibilities, dignity and respect under the law as opposite-sex unions, then why the big fuss over the name? Why have a Prop 8 at all? If they're really the same thing, then why call them something else?

Hey, I have an idea! If they're the same thing, then why don't we switch? I'll be married, you be a civil partner or whatever. I promise to tolerate you. How does that sound?

[David]

Dear JR,

Granted you have your reasons for disliking LDS involvement in Prop 8, still how is the idea that this incident will "color all your decisions" when dealing with mormons not the purest example of prejudice and possibly bigotry?

Any American certainly has the right to protest, to show their feelings. But I feel that perhaps many members of the Gay community have gone too far. They have let the same anger you feel spread to hatred and irrational action. However, I for one know that Prop 8 will not color my future dealings with openly gay individuals. Despite my religious beliefs, I know I can be friends with gays as I have in the past.

[Taylor Willingham]

I'm a Mormon and if I lived in California I would have voted for Prop 8. After prop 8, I have tried to think about what that means. I tried to look through the eyes of gays and see the struggle they are having. I have tried to weigh the importance of marriage to gays. Through my seeking, I think I can sympathize with their cause. As a Mormon, I think we have a similar social journey as gays. We are different than mainstream America. We are not accepted by mainstream Christianity. When young men and women tell their families that they are going to join the Mormon church they are often cast out of their families, like gay men and women.
Even though I would still vote for Prop 8, I have a deeped understanding of the struggles gays have. I have come to realize that my beliefs at times will conflict with other people desires and sometime hurt others deeply. I'm not going to try to make an argument for why gay marriage is wrong. I have found that most gays don't care, just like most Mormon's don't care how gays feel right now.
So my pleading is to Mormons and other Christians. We believe in traditional marriage; an institutional ordained by God created with Adam and Eve. We should defined it. We should stand for what we believe God has created. But, we should also be aware that gays are God's children and they feel persecuted by this belief. God loves them just as much as he loves religious people. Let us be kind at all times even if others are not. Let us be peacemakers not dividers. Try to think about their struggles and not overlook it like it is not important. I would ask gays to do the same for religious people.

[Ken from Merced]

When the Mormon church chose to enter the political sphere, the fact that they are a religious institution became irrelevant. They led non-Mormons in their political campaign, and they exhorted everyone – regardless of their religious affiliation — to vote "yes" on Prop. 8, which affected Mormons and non-Mormons alike. Mormon leaders were acting in their role as citizens in the democratic process. But as citizens leading a political campaign, they cannot escape public accountability for their public actions. After all that, the leadership of the LDS cannot suddenly change roles, toss up their hands and say, "You can't criticize us! We're a religion!" They forfeited that right when they threw themselves enthusiastically into a non-religious, political campaign.

This is not bigotry or discrimination against a religion. They are politicians now, and they deserve the same scrutiny and criticism due to any other political leader or movement.

[Jack in Seattle]

I married my partner of 9 years last year in Massachusetts at City Hall in Salem. Happiest day of my life after the birth of our son via a surrogate. We have a great life, great family, friends and home.

Unfortunately my partner grew up in a Mormon household and when he came out to himself and family as gay he was excommunicated. Can you imagine the pain involved to lose your spirtual upbringing. But this was just the begining, his family cut off all ties of communcation. So please don't talk to me about tolerance and a loving Christ figure please. I can look into his eyes and see the pain of his past and he deals with it everyday. To not even be invited to your mothers own funeral and to have the card returned unopened. So cruel.

I believe Prop 8 will be overturned in CA, and I strongly believe my new home state of Washington will join, MA, CT in full marriage equality. Another wall of religious bigotry will crumble by the wayside. Let's see who holds themselves to decorum and dignity then.

[Jeff Stoffa]

I grew up in a Christian church and was taught that all Mormons were going to hell for being part of a cult. I never believed it and always defended them. Not anymore. Take off for your own planet with your magic underwear.

[watchinitall]

I am LDS, and a chaplain in the military. If you are gay, I wonder if you could considerately explain to me how same sex marriage would play itself out in the military? If gay marriage becomes the law of the land and I respectfully refuse on grounds of personal belief to perform a marriage between gays, can I be sued? Barred from serving in the mlitary? I am seeing cases like this pop up, and I don't hear explanation or concern from gays about how society is supposed to balance these competing values in ways that leaves everybody standing. If the result of gay marriage is a fairly drastic curtailment of religious rights and religious standing, and alienation from society that believers would experience, is that really the result the gay community wants? I have never felt ill-will towards people who believe differently than I, including those who choose a gay lifestyle. That's their right and privilege in a free and temperate society. I've always felt like I was a full-fledged member of that temperateness. Is there a way forward that leaves us all standing, or is this another one of those horrible zero sum games?

[Mary]

Last year a gay man was on one of the morning tv shows. I wondered if he represented a segment of the gay community that remains largely unheard from. He stated that he was not interested in gay marriage. He said that was something that "straight people do". I thought he was a classy guy. Is it possible that he represents a majority of gay thought? Are these protests being carried on by a vocal minority of the gay community? If I were gay this would be my political stance. Almost without exception no one wishes anyone iin the gay community harm. I have never heard people wishing anything unkind to the gays. Disagreeing with gay marriage does not equal hatred. It is just a different opinion. I wonder if gays equate legal marriage as some sort of validation of the lifestyle.? I am afraid that is a quest that will probably never happen. The majority of people are straight, and believe in traditional marriage. It doesn't mean anything against you.

[Concerned Californian]

I would be somewhat amused by the pro same-sex 'marriage' comments made so far if they weren’t such a display of disingenuous arguments, both lacking in intelligent reasoning as well as research. Perhaps we should remind the readers of the Family Code of California, which unequivocally states,

“297.5. (a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.”

I could quote more of the code, but it only goes into more detail about how domestic partnerships in California receive all of the same rights as married couples (feel free to look it up). This being said, if the opponents of Prop 8 are concerned about federal rights (rather than state rights), I would suggest...no, encourage them to take it to the appropriate venue (i.e. the Supreme Court). Ah, but this might be counter productive for the opponents of Prop 8 at this time, when one considers the make-up of the current court. Better keep the fight in California and erroneously proclaim that it’s about rights, so that you can nurse the mass sense of ‘victim complex’ which makes it acceptable to demonstrate bigotry and hate crimes against those who voted for Prop 8.

Because, in the end, if an employee is doing exceptionally well in her/his job, but happens to be black, gay, Jewish, Catholic, etc, and a hate-mongering group decides to economically blacklist the person ONLY because of their beliefs, race, identity, or lifestyle, then this is bigotry. The opponents of Prop 8 are free to practice this bigotry, but let’s be honest and call it what it is. And as California same-sex couples have the same codified rights as California heterosexual couples, they cannot, in good conscience, use the cry of bigotry against those who supported Prop 8. It was never about rights in the State of California. It was the redefining of the word Marriage.

[Kent]

Facts:

The church does not hate gays. It does not teach to discriminate against those who have the natural inclination toward the behavior.

The church does, however, define marriage as between a man and woman.

The church itself donated very little money. Church members in California donated of their own frree will.

The voting process is not deemed as unconstitutional. Defaming property and violent behavior is.

[Brandy]

Mormons defending the Gospel? Aren't they the same group that say they have another testament of Jesus Christ? A restored Gospel? Also, the Evangelicals that supported Prop 8 still call the Mormons a cult and say they aren't Christians. Talk about hypocrites.

[oldskool74]

Oh the scorn, oh the rage, oh the shame of it, oh the indignation,

as a neutral observer; THE GAY COMMUNITY HAVE SHOWN A VERY VERY UGLY FACE.

it appears:
Mormons have participated within the confines of a healthy democratic election. Now the gay community are sulking and trying to intimidate and harass.

Seems like we may well have the foul stench of hypocracy lurking in our freedom loving nation.

[Phil]

squeegeeman wrote:
"throw the first punch" ??? I thought we were all
participating in the political process as legally
provided for in California. Since when has speaking
out for your beliefs and voting accordingly been
grounds for blacklisting and being called names?

This is an annoying meme. The idea here is that, somehow, a person can't be causing harm if all they are doing is "participating in the political process legally."

That is fallacious. If some racist group, somehow, managed to get enough signatures to get a proposition on the ballot that the state should castrate all men of a particular race, it may be that voting for such a proposition is legal, but such a vote would still be obnoxious bigotry.

Thus, it does not follow that simply participating in the political process legally absolves one of all moral responsibility for one's actions.

Also, where does this notion that only Mormons have been protested come from? In my part of the state, both Catholic churches and Rick Warren's Saddleback Church have been protested as well. However, it's also ridiculous to assume that the collection of individuals who choose to protest, picket, and march for their rights have an obligation to somehow "measure" the culpability of each organization that contributed to taking away their rights and spread their protest around equally.

It is enough that an organization _is_ culpable. The Mormon church, which participated in the political process and lobbied hard for Proposition 8, is worthy of protest.

[2Tigers]

To everyone here who says that CA LGBT have "equal" or "the same rights" as heterosexual couples under CA law

Have you actually read the CA family code regarding Domestic Parrtnerships?
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=fam&group=00001-01000&file=297-297.5

Have you gone to the CA Domestic Partner Registry Page's FAQ?
http://www.sos.ca.gov/dpregistry/dp_faqs.htm

Because once you actually read them both, this is what you find;
The differences between Domestic Partnerships (DPs) & Marriage, even with CA affording “the same rights & benefits of married people to DPs” are:
• If 1 part of the Heterosexual couple is under age 62 they can’t get domestic partnerships (even if they wanted to), only marriage. How is that equal?
• With marriage, you have the option of the marriage being public or confidential. DPs have to register with the state for any domestic partner benefits. This is PUBLIC RECORD, so there is no option for confidentiality. My wife works in a job where she can be FIRED for being in a relationship with me if we were to register as DPs, since anyone can request this public information. How is that equal?
• domestic partners do not have the protection of any statute or constitutional provision passed by citizen initiative. How is that equal? Finally, there are other stipulations and laws that domestic partners would have to consult legal counsel/an attorney in order to know all the rights that Domestic Partnerships afford to the partners involved in the relationship. These stipulations/laws are NOT listed in the CA Family Code, or the Domestic Partnership Registry FAQs provided by the State. Married couples do not have to consult an attorney/legal counsel in order to know what rights they have under their marriage. (This is also stated on the FAQs of CA's Domestic Partnership Website)

Once again I ask, how is that equal?

I am an Army veteran with 9.5yrs of service under my belt who served during the 1st Gulf War, in support of operations in Afghanistan & during Iraq War. I fought & bore the scars of war, & all I want the benefits that marriage can provide for my wife & our future children. And I can get some of those rights in CA, but those rights are nullified as soon as we go out of state. I want to work with rehabilitating military veterans affected by war injuries, but since the federal government doesn't recognized my partner for benefits, it would not be the best for my family to work ANY federal job if I am trying to raise a family with my wife. And I know the VA & the entire federal government is hurting for people.

So, all that to say:
1. I am more than willing to talk to other folks who don't share my views, because what's going to happen to all those kids being raised by LGBT families?
2. Please do not equate gay marriage with beastilality, pedophilea, incest, marrying outside the species/inatimate objects, polyandry,polygamy, or marrying your direct blood relatives (you can marry your 1st cousin in CA & 20+ other states LEAGALLY). We are talking about 2 adults of consentual age who are not otherwise prohibited by law to marry.
3. For all of you who supported prop 8, & are ok with civil unions, how do you justify that? Aren't civil unions/DP just another way for the gays to get the benefits of marriage withour calling it a marriage, which creates a parallel that is STILL wrong in the eyes of many religiions?
4. Last but not least, there will be some that say that I am free to marry the MAN of my choice as a lesbian. This is true. But why would I lie to this man & not be able to give him the love he deserves, potentially destroy the lives of our families & the lives of our children because my only option for marriage now is marrying someone of the opposite sex? That's not fair to him & I believe makes a sham of marriage.

Where do we go from here, CA? How do we give folks like me who want to provide for their families the right to do so? Let's stop pointing fingers at who did this, who didn't do that. It's time we talk this out, or Prop 8 will be right back on the ballot & in the courts for decades to come (which will hurt ALL of us in these tough economic times).

[EverStudent]

2Tigers,
I congratulate you for writing a well thought-out comment. I agree that it seems inconsistent to deny gays the right to marry and encourage them to pursue a domestic partnership that secures them all the same rights as marriage - unless one is merely concerned about the definition of the word "marriage." Personally, I do not support domestic partnerships either. I don’t want to encourage a lifestyle that I believe undermines the basic structure of American Society.

Also, as in many other comments posted here, there seems to be an underlying assumption that homosexuals have no choice in the matter, and that they could not possibly be happy living any other way. I have had extensive training in research design during my graduate work. I have taken the time to examine the supposed studies that claim to have found the genetic/organic basis for homosexuality and discovered their methodology to be embarrassingly flawed. The research seemed to be driven by the desire to validate homosexuality as inherent and immutable. However, this design was abandoned quickly once it became painfully obvious that such attempts were simply fishing expeditions and were creating more skepticism than validation. I am not saying that it is impossible that there is some genetic basis for a propensity towards homosexuality; I am just saying that it has yet to be found. We have, however, found ample evidence that alcoholism is a heritable trait yet we do not encourage it by providing government support for the habit (as does the English dole – their version of welfare), nor would a want the government to do so. I believe that alcoholics are better off when they do not give in to that tendency.

I don’t believe it is fair to compare the homosexuals fight for approval with the plight of other minorities. You don’t have any choice when it comes to your parents (and therefore your race), nor is there a compelling reason to treat a person differently based on their race. However, I do believe there is a compelling reason to discourage homosexuality on a societal level. Ouch! I know – sounds harsh. I am not trying to deny anyone the right to do what they want in the privacy of their own home. I simply will not vote to encourage a lifestyle that flies in the face of my values. As I stated above, the law always reflects values. So long as the majority of Americans agree that homosexual marriage is detrimental to our society, laws that embody that belief are appropriate.

I don't hate homosexuals. In fact, I have several homosexual relatives that I care dearly about. Yes it is possible to love someone and not agree with their lifestyle. Also, I believe that it possible for current homosexuals to be happy if they were to choose to live another way.

[mrc]

The separation of church and state comes from our fore fathers, they did not want one religion governing the United States. It was to keep the government from governing religion. Quit using that against the Mormon church. If prop 8 didn't pass the state could have governed the church (all churches). Its not against the gay community its against the state getting involved with Church's, and telling what they can and can not due.

[roger]

can't we all get along?

[puzzled]

So if a Gay married couple have a difference of opinion, is this how they'd treat their spouse???????????????

seems to me that the Gays should thank the Mormons for saving them millions in divorce settlements if this is how they act when views and opinion differ.

[shelly]

The Mormon cult needs to start being taxed.

[Love Lich]

I keep hearing ..they are striping us of our rights as gays...our rights..our rights... We are a nation that talks so much about rights but never about responability.

how about our rights as families. The right to send your child to a school that teaches good values and not so confused with politically correct sayings. The right to be a church founded on true eternal princples rather than whatever the phase of the people are in. I don't believe God would give his children the burden of being attracted to the opposite sex and being constantly one generation away from extinction without a way to get through the trial. The horrible lie is that people hate gays..some people may believe that just majority doesn't. We as a nation, church, and loving neighbors are here for the gays not to give them whatever they want but to be a loving non judgemental lending hand. Just because the child wants to play in the street doesn't mean you let them and they may throw a fit but the person is removing that child out of greater and deeper love for that child.

[Bill Fitzgerald]

Hey Shame on california, Why not use your real name? You know nothing about mormonism if you even suggest bigotry. Interesting how gays turn the problem around and point and blame others. Legalizing your sexual preference is going to far. We should have donated more money. Forcing us to allow same sex couples to adopt babies from our social services is unacceptable. We would have to shut all of our agencies in california. WE HAD BETTER speak up for the infants who have no say in this. And yes it is worth it even with all of the threats and lies hurled from all directions. We understand that taking a stand has a cost and when the backlash comes, that proves just how important it is. This is only the beginning as some say and they are right because As morality continues to take a nosedive we will take stand for our beliefs and for what we believe is best for society. And so it legally without threats or violence. We simply ask the same from you.

[Zak]

>>> Because once you actually read them both, this is what you find;
The differences between Domestic Partnerships (DPs) & Marriage, even with CA affording “the same rights & benefits of married people to DPs” are:

I've "acutally" read it and saw only 2 significant differences.

>>>• If 1 part of the Heterosexual couple is under age 62 they can’t get domestic partnerships (even if they wanted to), only marriage.

The eligibility criteria for registration of a domestic partnership was set by the California State Legislature and signed by the Governor in 1999. During the legislative process, eligibility of opposite sex couples was limited to senior citizens. This agency has no authority to change the criteria set by the legislature.

Hmmmm... sounds like Gov. Arnol-nator is sleeping on the Job. Have your legislators change the law. Probably because the SUpreme court stepped all over the will of the people.

>>>• With marriage, you have the option of the marriage being public or confidential. DPs have to register with the state for any domestic partner benefits. This is PUBLIC RECORD, so there is no option for confidentiality. My wife works in a job where she can be FIRED for being in a relationship with me if we were to register as DPs, since anyone can request this public information.

This is one of the differences I saw. Again have the legislators change the law... thats what they are there for. Make them earn thei9r money instead of having activist Judges legislate from the bench and do their job for them.

• domestic partners do not have the protection of any statute or constitutional provision passed by citizen initiative.

Yet you forgot of severall advantages.....

How do you terminate a registered domestic partnership?

Beginning January 1, 2005, in many circumstances, domestic partnerships may only be terminated by initiating a dissolution proceeding in the Superior Court. In circumstances where a domestic partnership meets all the requirements listed in Family Code section 299(a), the domestic partnership may be terminated by filing a Notice of Termination of Domestic Partnership with the California Secretary of State. If you have more questions about terminating a domestic partnership, you should consult with an attorney.

Hmmm... no divosrce lawyers needed. Each partner can basically walk away! How cool is that?

[Mormon Fun]

I've seen them at work...finding isolated kids and indoctrinating them, providing a "healthy environment" that pushes their religion, and suckers the kids in. I've seen how they treat minorities, and their own kids when one has a teen pregnancy. How they use their clout in Utah, and the massive machines for spreading their word, and so on. From the meadows massacre, to the "but that's not us" polygamist cults, to their stands against the ERA and their own "sacred" documents filled with racist screed....LDS is finally coming out of the closet, and pushing their doctrines down the throats of others. Sure, the catholic church and KoC deserve their share of dirt for Prop 8. And the LGBT community got their heads handed to them. But I can tell you this. People with a clue, know what's going on. It won't stand up in court. You can' deny one person the same right as another just because of their sex. Equality is just that. And the LDS, and the rest of you moral majority types...guess what...your days are numbered. At every Prop 8/anti Prop 8 demonstration, I saw something. The pro 8 people were mainly white, and old. And the anti-8 people..mainly younger and multi-cultural. Try as you might, the younger generations is not falling for your hate, or dogma. Someday, your legacy will be a warehouse full of sacred underwear, and a few tiny groups of "not really polygamists" living in misery. And good riddance.

[Petur Workman]

First off Mormons are NOT a religion they are a cult. They wear crazy underpants, they believe they get a planet when they die and they think some angels talked to John Smith in the woods.

They also think blacks are the sinners and the color of their skin is the mark of Cain. Heck they couldn't even go into the temple until the 1970s. They redefined marriage from many wives to one when they wanted Utah to become a state.

Now they believe gays should not have the same rights as other Americans. They just seem like trouble makers and need to be taxed!

[Barb]

What makes me cringe the most, as a former (yes as a Bishop's and then Stake Presidents daughter I finally resigned as did all my siblings) is that the Mormon church ALWAYS sees themselves as the victim.

I guess they forgot little things like the Mountain Meadows Massacre amongst other things..

There have been thousands of Mormons send in their resignation letters since just before November 4. I'm thinking there are more to come. All this because of prop 8. Yes, I know that many of these were fence sitters. The church just helped make the decision. Having been told that they have to vote yes on Prop 8 and even being asked, not only to contribute (after paying the 10%) but being told how much to contribute. Generally this was not a small amount.

A huge amount of baptized South Americans (where there was a great amount of baptisms) are inactive and not interested in the church. The church is also having problems "hanging on" to the youth of the church.

Another surprise is that in the UK a Mormon temple had its tax exemption status taken away...not that the church couldn't afford to pay taxes for it. The reason was that, while the general public is allowed, and welcomed, into any Mormon church, they are not allowed into the temple. I assume that in the states the church has connected a visitors center to all the temples so they could argue that the general public is allowed. Smart.

The church is not going away but they are struggling with their membership. There has been a lot of turmoil in the church due to prop 8. This has come back to bite them in the butt and will continue to do so. Yes, other religions were involved. There are several reasons that the Mormons have been singled out. One is the amount of money. Another is that the money to support this was solicited from its members with some members being "strongly urged" to give. But probably the biggest reason is because the church has gone through its existence whining. Well, as one of the biggest religions in the world. they should just stop whining and acting the victim. It's getting old.

[Nick]

I can't stand the ignorance any longer. I don't care if you define marriage as between a man and a woman, that's your right and your business. All the GLBT community has asked is permission to define marriage as a contract between two men or two women IN THEIR COMMUNITY. No one's asking you to recognize their marriage from a personal or moral standpoint, they're asking for the government to recognize them as equals. If you can't help them do that, if you voted no on prop 8, then you believe gay people aren't equal to you. That makes you prejudice, and it makes you a bigot. Live with it. Don't make excuses for yourself. You're a bigot. Period.

[AZ1]

"The Jews wouldn't have spent so much money to spread anger, fear and lies. The Jews would have never put their words and money toward something that was going to cause so much pain for a minority group."

Are you kidding me? It's called the Israeli Apartheid state, go read Chomsky or finkelstein. Jews donate money all the time to causes that people would say spread anger or hatred. Look at the Obsession DVD that was mailed out recently fear mongering against Muslims.

[Jay]

Mormons are hardly the victims here. They have spent many millions in denying equal rights to gay men and lesbians (and not simply on Proposition 8). Their funding an attack on the human rights of others makes them vulnerable to exposure of their own dirty secrets (like an astronomical rate of child abuse and polygamy among Mormons, as well as truly preposterous religious beliefs). For a group that keeps calling for tolerance for itself, they show very little tolerance for others. I personally think there should be massive acts of civil disobedience targeting Mormon churches and businesses.

[FundamentallyFlawed]

If gays had organized and funded a campaign to strip Mormons of the right to marry, I think we'd expect every bit as much backlash as the Mormons are feeling now. This isn't about a failure to respect other's religious beliefs. This is about the refusal to allow the religious beliefs of one segment of society to become the law of the land.

I'm tired of debating whether Prop 8 supporters "hate" gays or not. Your state of mind toward me is irrelevant; your actions are what matter. When you vote against my basic rights; when you call my "lifestyle" immoral without knowing anything about me beyond my sleeping arrangements; when you tell me I'm a threat to society after al the years I've spent working to make the world a better place; when you vandalize my home and injure my friends because of our "No on 8" signs---surely you'll understand if I fail to interpret your behavior as "loving."

The comment by "aj" above (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2008/12/are-mormon-the.html#comment-141172552), by the way, is really special. S/he promises to defeat the gays with "dignity and decorum," moments after calling us half a dozen ugly names, then says "You came into our space and now you want a fight." What's "your space," aj? California? Utah? The United States? I'm sorry---I thought this land belonged to all of us.

[ca teacher]

How can anyone justify the absolute lies that were told in support of Proposition 8? I AM a teacher in California and we DO NOT teach young children about marriage. In my district "Family Life" education doesn't begin until 5th grade and only students who have legal, signed permission slips from their parents can even attend. Our fifth grade curriclum for girls (who are taught separately from boys) is primarily to teach them about their own bodies and menstruation. This is really racy information considering a great deal of them are already menstruating.

How can so-called "Christian" religions condone these lies?

[bennyinsf]

TO TEDWHITE: I enjoyed reading your comment. You're right on.

[Olive Yurdich]

The mormon church is a cult founded by a pedophile polygamist. What's not to love?

[Dennis]

The Mormon Church is supposed to be "the re-establishment of Christ's original church"? Gee, I guess that means marriage isn't between one man and one woman after all. It's between one man and a whole bunch of women, just as the church's founder instructed.

The real shame in the church's anti-gay stance is the way it treats LGBT people in its own ranks, with shunning and excommunication as well as "therapy" in which gays are supposed to be turned straight (If it doesn't work, then they're just not praying hard enough!)

Mormons have lots of kids, so statistically there's bound to be someone gay in every family. And rejecting your own kids is not a family value -- it's child abuse.

[Mike]

First of all, the LDS Church leaders stated they were against legal marriage between gay couples. The Church did not donate any of its own money. The money came only from taxpaying citizens with every right to campaign for their belief.
Second, the LDS Church is not against tax benefits to gay people, they just believe that marriage is supposed to be between one man and one woman.
Third, people should not attack people because they donated to a cause.

[Jim]

Why should homosexuals be allowed to marry? Marrying will not make their relationships more stable. And we as a society are supposed to accept homosexual relationships as equal to marriage?

We should all be thanking the mormons for doing so much to call the gay-marriage travesty exactly what it is, which is a frontal assault on society. Here's why:

- Homosexual relationships last on average 1.5 years and homosexual men have on average eight sexual partners outside their committed relationships.
- A Kinsey Institute study found that almost 80% of homosexual men reported that over half of their sex partners were complete strangers.
- Anal intercourse seriously and permanently damages the anus and sphincter, and results in a large number of diseases and disorders far less common among heterosexual partners, including fecal incontinence, anal cancer, chlamydia trachomatis, cryptosporidium, giardia lamblia, herpes simplex virus, HIV, human papilloma virus, isospora belli, microsporidia, Gonorrhoea, Syphilis, etc.
- The average age of death report in gay periodical obituaries is 42 years old, with only 9% of homosexuals reaching age 65.
- Infidelity among male homosexuals is approximately 95%.

The list goes on. The reality is homosexual relationships are inherently nowhere near the level of strength and stability of heterosexual relationships. Nor are they intrinsically beneficial to society. Thank you Mormons, Blacks, Knights of Columbus, and all others who stood up for this proposition in spite of the shrill shrieking blackballing neo-mccarthy mormophobes on the other side.

[Jay]

All of these comments about how the Mormon Church does not hate gays is just bs. The Mormon Church has opposed every measure that might improve the lives of gay men and lesbians, from the repeal of laws criminalizing same-sex sexual acts to anti-discrimination laws to domestic partner benefits. If they thought the could repeal California's domestic partner law, they would do so. The Mormon Church is a deeply reactionary cult.

[Tom from SD]

Boycotts are great. Nothing's better than people voting with their dollars. If the glbt is outraged, they have the right as consumers to patronize or withold patronage as they see fit.

Vandalizing Mormon chapels, on the other hand, mailing "anthrax letters" to Mormon temples and embracing tactics of hate; are these really the tactics of the tolerant?

As a straight sympathizer, I've proudly contributed to the Human Rights Campaign for over a decade. I'm sorry to say that they've recieved their last donation from me.

As a consumer, I'm voting with my own dollars against the GLBT community's swift abandonment of tolerance and acceptance in response to a temporary legal setback.

Welcome to California politics. We all know that "proposition 8" will be right back on the ballot sooner rather than later. Last time I voted with the GLBT community, but they've lost my vote for the next round.

To my GLBT friends: Your claim that the Mormon behavior justifies your behavior is adolescent at best. Hypocrisy does not justify hypocrisy.

I expected better of you.

[Brent]

It is kind ironic that people are accusing the the Mormon church of being anti-gay, when it is one of the more tolerant religions towards same-sex attraction. The church teaches that having same-sex attraction is NOT a sin. They teach that acting on those feelings is wrong, just like they teach that heterosexuals committing fornication is wrong. The church expects straight people who never have the chance get married to be celibate. This isn't about gays at all; it is about preserving the traditional definition of marriage for the benefit of children and society. Children have the right to be raised by a mother and a father.

[karen]

I am always amazed that the gay community gets so mad when people recognize that a gay relationship is not the same as a heterosexual relationship. If a gay man or woman can recognize gender difference when choosing a partner, the rest of the world can also see that there is a difference in this type of relationship. Gays should not claim their civil rights are being trampled on. Any person has the right to be married. But "marriage" means the union of a man and a woman. A homosexual man or woman can enter into a marriage by choosing to be heterosexual. And yes, this is a choice. And yes, there is a difference. If you want marriage and if you want children, you have that choice, it is up to you. Your civil right to marry is intact. But what you really want is for the rest of the world to turn a blind eye to the differences in gender when you won't. Don't get angry at the Mormon's for refusing to buy into this double standard.

[Jay]

Brent's description of the LDS Church as "one of the more tolerant religions towards same-sex attraction" is utter nonsense. Mormons routinely excommunicate anyone in a same-sex sexual relationship. If any gay person is deluded enough to want to stay in such a hateful Church, they are forced to undergo aversion therapy. As for Karen's tired reiteration that marriage "means the union of a man and woman," that too is nonsense. In some places, and often among Mormons, marriage means the union of a man and a woman and a woman and a woman . . . ." A better definition is that marriage is the union of two people who love each other and intend to spend the rest of their lives together.