Why did blacks back Prop. 8? It's a minefield

With exit polls showing up to 70% of black voters backing Prop. 8, there has been much discussion about why. Some have noted an irony of Barack Obama voters backing a ballot measure some consider discriminatory. The Times' Cara Mia DiMassa delved in this minefield and came out with some answers:

"I was born black. I can't change that," said Culver City resident Bilson Davis, 57, who voted for Proposition 8. "They weren't born gay; they chose it," he added, reflecting a commonly held belief that many researchers dispute.

Although many of the state's black political leaders spoke out against Proposition 8, an exit poll of California voters showed that black voters favored the measure by a ratio of more than 2 to 1. Not only was the black vote weighted heavily in favor of Proposition 8, but black turnout -- spurred by Barack Obama's historic campaign for president -- was unusually large, with African Americans making up roughly 10% of the state electorate.

The exit poll didn't ask voters why they voted the way they did. But Madison Shockley, pastor of Pilgrim United Church of Christ in Carlsbad and among the roughly one-third of blacks who opposed Proposition 8, said the vote was understandable. "Black folks go to church, probably more than the Caucasian population, and the churches they go to tend to be very traditional."

Los Angeles resident Christopher Hill, 50, said he was motivated by religion in supporting Proposition 8. Civil rights, he said, "are about getting a job, employment."

Gay marriage, he said, is not: "It's an abomination against God."

Did the No-on-Prop 8. side have a "white bias." Did the campaign ignore black concerns? This Times opinion piece explores those questions.

-- Shelby Grad

Comments

[Greg]

If, as Mr. Hill claims, civil rights, "are about getting a job, employment," then I suppose he wouldn't mind if we returned to black and white drinking fountains, sending him to the back of buses, and refusing service at restaurants in favor of white customers. None of those have to do with employment, so it shouldn't bother him.

[Jon]

Disproportionately people of color are against civil rights for gay people. They are not "liberals" at all.

[Brigitte Moon]

I feel as a Christian and my believes, I have a right to my opinion and my right to vote the way i see correct.
Now I see riots and hate by the protesters against the folks that have voted the way they have a right to vote.
Gays have equal rights, this has nothing to do with that at all.
We do not hate their life styles, we just believe that marriage is between a man & a woman as defined in the bible in Corinthians Chapter 6 versues 9 & 10, which is our right.
Now these protesters are in my opinion showing hate by saying and pointing fingers at the Mormon church and christians.
This is America where I have freedom of speech and freedom to vote the way i feel.

[Brandon]

I am stunned by the arrogant ignorance of people who should know by now how it feels to be treated as less-than. How sad is it to see that so many african-americans are just as committed to injustice as the ideas they'd long ago sworn to fight.

[Dom]

How ironic indeed for blacks to justify their vote for Prop 8 based on religion and the bible when it is that very same bible that was used to justify their 3/5 human status, their enslavement, and the miscegenation laws against them. When will blacks realize that the bible and those who wield it against both blacks and gays are the very same forces? I understand that many blacks attend traditional "black churches" but I personally don't understand how any black church can so conveniently divorce itself from all of the racist, pro-slavery, and anti-woman aspects of the bible, yet still cling to a few a lines taken out of context that are seemingly (and this is widely disputed by biblical scholars) about homosexuality. Blacks, gays, and women need to unite in the understanding that we have all been the target of bible attacks, and for one of us to wield the bible as a weapon against another is tragic.

[Thoughtful]

Glad to see you included the word "some" before the phrase "consider discriminatory." It's getting old, listening to the "No on 8" crowd shout accusations of hate and bigotry, when they seem very uninterested in listening to the majority's point of view.... i.e., where they are actually coming from. Understanding is the only way we will reach any sort of unity on this issue.

Like many folks, I don't consider homosexual *behavior* OK; for religious reasons, but also equally for reasons having to do with the raising of children, and the necessity of the natural strengths of both men and women in that task. As one sign put it: "Which parent is unecessary, Mom, or Dad?" We are being asked to affirm something in the realm of child-rearing that we cannot affirm, any more than we can affirm, say, teenage pregnancy. What these folks seem to be wanting, actually more than they even want supposed civil rights, is affirmation. Stop calling me a bigot, just because I will not affirm a *behavior*. Predisposition, fine -- I'm not convinced that homosexuality is a choice, nor am I at all convinced it's genetic -- but the issue is affirming a lifestyle. Sorry, I cannot, and will not, do that -- sexual sin is sexual sin, whether it's infidelity, prostitution, or homosexual behavior.

If marriage is just a "civil union" with legal implications, using the argument the "No on 8" crowd is putting forth, I don't see any reason to limit it to just parties of two -- why not just open marriage up to a total free-for-all among any number of consenting adults, like how business partnerships work?

At first draft, I would say.... because there is an aspect of sexuality that is sacred, and because of children.... that's why.

Heterosexual marriage and much of what constitutes "family" in this country is broken; of that there is no doubt. The answer, however, is not just to open up the floodgates of random a feels-OK, "gee, these people are in love" free-for all with how we define a word so rooted in our culture (and most others) that it goes clear back into common law as a word clearly understood to be referring mean *only* male/female unions.

8 wasn't about taking rights away, as Jerry Browns unilateral re-naming of the ballot measure implies; it was about re-affirming a boundary that has long been established, and does not need to move.

[Elle Johnson]

Let's call it what it is - homophobia. And let's not allow people to turn the word "traditional" into a euphemism for "prejudice." It's time for discrimination in the Black community to be addressed. As an African-American it makes me sad to see my community discriminating against others the way we have been discriminated against in the past. People just need to be educated and hopefully the demonstrations and a concerted effort at enlightenment will continue.

[Brenda Moore]

I'm black and I am in despair of my people. I can't believe that they have been so brainwashed by the church that they actually believe being gay is a choice. Logically then, the African American community should have voted for the McCainPalin ticket because it's exactly the kind of rhetoric that were espoused by them.

It IS about civil rights. That's the ONLY thing it's about. The church should never have been involved. If the traditional church doesn't want to recognize gay marriage that's fine. There are other churches that would be more than happy to hold gay weddings and welcome gay members.

When you start stripping one group of people of their rights you're well on your way to becoming a fascist state and then nobody is safe. It happened in Germany in the 1930s and passing Prop 8 is opening the door to it happening in the near future here in America.

[John Bryans Fontaine]

Barack Obama's election to the U.S. presidentcy rivals that of John F. Kennedy's. For the fist time in almost fifty, years, people throughout the world our cheering the United States as never before. But had Obama listened to the tantrums of the gay marriage militants and supported same sex marriage and opposed, instead of avoiding, Proposition 8, he would have lost the election to John McCain.

This of course, matters nothing to the gay marriage extremists.

[Austin L.]

The most powerful argument that homosexuals try to make, in my opinion, is trying to equate their demands for some supposed right with the rights for civil rights for African Americans.

When African Americans fail to see that connection, I believe it puts a big hole in that argument.

[fern]

The African continent is overcrowded with missionaries. First the coloniazation, meaning to rip them off of whatever was possible, Mr Firestone should know about that as the rubber for American tires came from there, the Belgians provided the uranium from Congo for the first atom bomb. Now all church denominations are fighting to grab a few souls over there. the religious leaders know only too well the benefits of mass endoctrination and there is nothing to stop them, the KKK is illegal, the NAZI party is illegal and so many other political parties, the churches? Never, the bible is such a beautiful book full of love, tolerance all these qualities we've noticed from the yes on prop 8 people...
It is true too that the black churches did a lot in the fight against segregation and black people are not going to forget this to them the church is great and nobody is going to tell them what the church did in Latin America killing the indians by the millions.

[John Bargas]

OK, the blacks, the Mormons, the Catholics, and just about everyone else has
voted to keep marriage between a man and a woman. TWICE !!
Its time for GALA to move on.

[bigwolf]

Everyone says that they will not introduce it in our schools, but they are forcing it on everyone on TV every chance they can...

[Miguel]

Blacks don't want people "getting in front of them in the line." That is why 70% voted to ban gay people from marrying. No amount of outreach could change that.

[Enough is Enough]

In the end blacks or "African-Americans" as they want to be called are deeply racist (against whites in particular) and deeply homophobic, particualrly against gays and lesbians who are black. The only propostion or political candidate they will back is someone black or a ballot measure that benefits them alone. They could care less about anyone else.

What is ironic is this a a community that has always been supported by Gays. This is also a community where almost 60% of black children grow up in a home where their parents aren't living together or marrfied..So much for marriage huh? In short..while blacks were voting for Obama and gays were supporting them, blacks were voting in record numbers against. gays.

[Jim]

I have always felt civil unions were enough and the marriage issue was not a big deal. After understanding the decisions and reasoning behind the decision of the California Supreme Court, I came to realize that the issue wasn't about marriage at all, but social equality under the law. The source of my rage and visceral emotion over this issue has to do with the contrast of the principle of our constitution and the gross injustice of mob rule. I believe that is why it should be taken personally by all those who believe in freedom and the principles behind the eloquent words of President elect Obama.
It is a disgrace that the black community should vote 70% for Proposition 8, when that community is so obviously dysfunctional with regard to marriage and family.
Pregnancy out of wedlock
multiple children with multiple fathers
black women are the fastest increasing demographic in HIV infection largely due to the intolerance of the black extremist churches and gay behavior on the down low.
Normally, I wouldn't get involved in the black communities problems because they are not my own, but 70% wants to take away the rights of some to form families. That is bigotry. Plain and simple, and bigotry makes me angry.

[Jim]

Which of These Abominations Have You Committed?
There are close to 70 abominations listed in the Bible. Here are a few that you may have engaged in:
Abomination: Eating Ham
Deuteronomy 14:8: “The pig also because it is a splitter of the hoof but there is no cud. It is unclean for you. None of their flesh must you eat and carcass you must not touch.”
The Bible says that if you have eaten ham, you are just as bad a sinner, just as hellbound, as any homo.
Abomination: Eating Any Seafood Other Than Fish — and Birds You Probably Wouldn’t Eat Anyway
Leviticus 11:10-19: “But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you. They shall remain an abomination to you; of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall have in abomination. Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is an abomination to you.”
The Bible says that eating lobster, shrimp, clams, eel, squid or octopus is equally as heinous as being gay. If you have eaten any of these things, you are going to hell alongside us homos.
“And these you shall have in abomination among the birds, they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, the vulture, the osprey, the kite, the falcon according to its kind, every raven according to its kind, the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk according to its kind, the owl, the cormorant, the ibis, the water hen, the pelican, the carrion vulture, the stork, the heron according to its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.”
Good news: Parrots are okay to eat and, if you enjoy bat meat, there appears to be a loophole. Bats are mammals not birds.
Abomination: Eating Leftovers
Leviticus 19:7: “If it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an abomination.”
The Bible says that eating three-day-old leftovers and being gay are equivalent sins.
Abomination: Eating Snakes and Crawly Critters
Leviticus 11:42: “Whatever goes on its belly, and whatever goes on all fours, or whatever has many feet, all the swarming things that swarm upon the earth, you shall not eat; for they are an abomination.”
Abomination: Eating Sacrificed Animals
Leviticus 7:18: If any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offering is eaten on the third day, he who offers it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be credited to him; it shall be an abomination, and he who eats of it shall bear his iniquity.
No worries for you here, I hope.
Abomination: Having a Psychic Reading or Checking Your Horoscope
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 “When you come into the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD; and because of these abominable practices the LORD your God is driving them out before you.”
Abomination: Burning Incense
Isaiah 1:13: Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies–I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
Abomination: Cheating at Business
Deuteronomy 25:13-16: “You shall not have in your bag two kinds of weights, a large and a small. You shall not have in your house two kinds of measures, a large and a small. A full and just weight you shall have, a full and just measure you shall have; that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you. For all who do such things, all who act dishonestly, are an abomination to the LORD your God.”
Proverbs 11:1 A false balance [scale] is an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is his delight.
Abomination: Women Wearing Pants, Men Dressing in Drag
Deuteronomy 22:5: “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.”
Yes, ladies, if you wear jeans, it is an abomination equal to the sin of being a drag queen.
Abominations: Haughtiness, Lying, Killing the Innocent, Wicked Scheming, Seeking out Evil, Lying and Troublemaking
Proverbs 6:16-19: There are six things which the LORD hates, seven which are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers.
Can’t help but think that George W. Bush is in a heap of trouble on this one.
Abomination: Arrogance
Proverbs 16:5: Every one who is arrogant is an abomination to the LORD; be assured, he will not go unpunished.
Summary
We’re all going to hell.

[Randy]

Why would blacks be expected to support gays? They obviously haven't come to the conclusion on their own that being black and being gay are equivalent in our society. They have a public voice, and they are saying, 'no' to same sex marriage. Gays are attempting to enslave blacks for political purposes. This attitude that gays have the right to enslave blacks and the right to accuse Mormons is completely wrongheaded. This is not how a democratic society functions.

[srla]

To anyone, black or white that wants to espouse nonsense that gays make a "choice", I have a challenge: try making that same choice. Try and "choose" to be attracted to somebody of the same sex. Did it work? I didn't think so. People no more choose who they are attracted to than they choose the color of their skin. Anyone who spends even a few minutes thinking this through will understand this.

So what's the problem? People are allowed not to think about it at all, but instead to spew religious tenets and eschew logic altogether.

The black individuals who voted for Prop 8 spoke volumes about their ignorance of the very movement that gave them their freedoms. The concept of equal protection was espoused by our Founding Fathers in the Federalist Papers and then written into the Constitution. Yet, paradoxically, these protections were not extended to blacks until the mid 20th Century. Our Founding Fathers had lofty ideals, but they did not yet have the means nor the will to fully realize those ideals.

The Civil Rights Movement was simply a further realization of the promise of the Constitutional Convention, extending equal protection to another subset of the population. The Gay Rights Movement is directly analogous to the Civil Rights Movement in that it seeks to further extend equal protection, to further realize the ideals of our forefathers. It really is that simple.

Separation of church and state was another ideal clearly espoused by our Founding Fathers. Yet this ideal has been largely ignored by many who call themselves evangelical Christians out of a profound lack of appreciation for the very reason those ideals were first espoused: the religious views of our Founding Fathers were as diverse as our own today, and they wisely concluded that, if any cohesive society was to be formed, no one religion or set of religious beliefs could be promoted by the government. As John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison declared in the Federalist Papers, it is the utmost duty of all Americans to protect minorities from "the violence of majority faction". Anything less is profoundly un-American.

[Paul]

The sad truth is that the Black population has had a disastrous history with marriage. Facts: In 1963, more than 70 percent of all Black families were headed by married couples. In 2002 that number was 48 percent. Nearly 45 percent of Black men have never married and 42 percent of Black women have never married. More to the point, an increasing number of Black women will never get married. The percentage of Black women who are married declined from 62 percent to 31 percent between 1950 and 2002.

The numbers are just as startling for percentages of remarriage following divorce (much lower than for Whites and Hispanics) and for the age at which Blacks first marry (significantly later than other races). Note: statistics are from bnet.com.

Perhaps for these reasons it is not surprising that Blacks did not support extending to gays the right to marry. It's not an institution they've had much luck with themselves. The specter of extending rights to another minority when their own history with the institution is in shambles must feel unfathomable, unnecessary and insulting.

[MaryJ]

Despite the obsessive "framing" of "narrative" from the "progressive" left, there is no rainbow coalition of officially designated victim groups marching in locksteap solidarity against evil white, straight males. People are people, not interchangeable "victims" of designated "oppressors." Blacks and conservative Asians and Latinos are their own people, with their own cultures, their own worldviews, their own values, etc. No, they don't all fit into cookie cutter boxes designed by wealthy, secular, "progressive" white liberals -- what a shock.

[Rob]

I am sure that anyone who chooses discrimination instead of tolerance will have some sort of nutty justification. In this case "god told me to discriminate against gay people"; why this sort of justification has more merit in the religiously insane than say "the devil made me do it" is beyond me. On one hand a mythical deity instructs hate, on the other hand a mythical deity is blamed for a situation. Interesting isn't it? Then their is the meritless belief that somehow being black is okay, but being gay isn't; and the completely subjective view that one chooses being gay as opposed to one being born that way. I have no malice towards blacks, but I will say that I can and will no longer support furthering black rights, looks to me like the black community has that well taken care of now anyway; ironic that once a minorities status is raised to where it belongs how quickly they tun into the very same thing that held them down for so long. Shame on christians everywhere, and shame shame on blacks who supported Prop 8, you of all people should understand and empathize with discrimination, I truly am disappointed in the black community of California.

[Matthew]

I wish the anti-Prop 8 people would drive down to South Central Los Angeles to protest a few African American churches! Heck it would be interesting for them to even take on my own Church -- the Catholic Church!

They seem to be a bunch of cowards making fools out of themselves in Westwood at the Mormon building. A bunch of childish, arrogant and intolerant liars...

[John Egan]

I must say, I have never seen bigotry expressed so powerfully or effectively as in the Jasmyne Cannick op-ed. Kudos to the LA Times for having such a talented person on board.

[Tristan]

I vehemently refuse to allow someone who has not walked in my shoes.... to dictate that I "Chose" to be gay. What a moron. Hes old and deserves to have HIS rights taken away.

Tristan age 18