Why did blacks back Prop. 8? It's a minefield

With exit polls showing up to 70% of black voters backing Prop. 8, there has been much discussion about why. Some have noted an irony of Barack Obama voters backing a ballot measure some consider discriminatory. The Times' Cara Mia DiMassa delved in this minefield and came out with some answers:

"I was born black. I can't change that," said Culver City resident Bilson Davis, 57, who voted for Proposition 8. "They weren't born gay; they chose it," he added, reflecting a commonly held belief that many researchers dispute.

Although many of the state's black political leaders spoke out against Proposition 8, an exit poll of California voters showed that black voters favored the measure by a ratio of more than 2 to 1. Not only was the black vote weighted heavily in favor of Proposition 8, but black turnout -- spurred by Barack Obama's historic campaign for president -- was unusually large, with African Americans making up roughly 10% of the state electorate.

The exit poll didn't ask voters why they voted the way they did. But Madison Shockley, pastor of Pilgrim United Church of Christ in Carlsbad and among the roughly one-third of blacks who opposed Proposition 8, said the vote was understandable. "Black folks go to church, probably more than the Caucasian population, and the churches they go to tend to be very traditional."

Los Angeles resident Christopher Hill, 50, said he was motivated by religion in supporting Proposition 8. Civil rights, he said, "are about getting a job, employment."

Gay marriage, he said, is not: "It's an abomination against God."

Did the No-on-Prop 8. side have a "white bias." Did the campaign ignore black concerns? This Times opinion piece explores those questions.

-- Shelby Grad

Comments

[Alisa]

I completely agree Denise1099. People want to believe that the struggle is over for Black Americans, especially because of our new President-elect. Unfortunately I don't think it is - Jena 6 wasn't in the 60s, it was just last year. It was thought that we should understand the plight of the Gay community. I would be curious to see how many people who oppose proposition 8 were equally outraged at the passing of Prop. 209 or about what happened to Jena 6. As an educated woman of color there have been many things in life that I felt that were unfair and unjust but as a women of class I didn't attack the opposition.

52% of the population of California voted to maintain marriage between a man and women for what ever their reasons may have been. A right, (may I add that was only granted only 43 years ago(1965) after countless years of oppression for the Black community and made permanent in 1982) that EVERY person in United States has the right to exercise. You want to talk about a basic civil right...the right to vote. People exercised their right and because some (including some power politicians) didn't agree with the outcome, votes no longer count. Its funny in 1965, my grandparents thought their voices would start counting for something, but I guess in 2008 it doesn't.

Also let's not continue to blame religion for everything - it's an easy place to go and getting old.

[Chris]

Seeing hispanics vote for prop 8 is like watching the monster eat Frankenstein. great!

[TONY MELIA]

LOVING ET UX. v. VIRGINIA
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
388 U.S. 1
June 12, 1967, Decided
Interesting case of Mr. & Mrs Loving of Virginia. She was black and he was white and the State of Virginia refused to recognize their marriage, They were convicted of violation of law and brought litigation against the State of Virginia, which was finally heard by the Supreme Court of the United States in 1967.

You can read the details by GOOGLING Loving v Virginia ----- however, the court said the following:

These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men.

Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival. To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discriminations. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State.

While this case was regarding a BLACK and WHITE person marrying , a couple of the important statements made by the court that should apply to same-sex marrage.

[Jacob Holder]

Religious oppression has kept us seperate for so long. I lived in South America and experienced the Catholic church and Opus Dei first hand. I saw the way women were kept back, social classes were divided and homosexuals were blacklisted.

The United States is a developed country. We are educated. We need not fear. We believe in common law and equality. We also believe in freedom of thought, expression and religion.

It is a great a nation. So great that one can practice religious teachings that women have only one place in society or that interracial marriages are against God. But it is even a greater nation that doesn't require women to stay in the kitchen and at home with children or forbid the birth of biracial babies.

Unfortunately, blacks and Latinos are slow to grasp the civil rights component. Thanks religious oppression. This aspect is even darker when history reveals how whites used religion to support slavery and segregation.

Are we blind to our history? When will we grow up? When will we open our history books and learn from our mistakes? When will we throw fear out the window?

A "marriage" is a legal contract between two people. However, the word continues to constitute a religious contract to many. Perhaps the answer is that these government-issued contracts no longer carry the name of "marriage" for anyone. Let's seperate state and church even further. In this scenario the state would only provide federal/civil unions to the public -- granting the same rights to EVERY union.

Those couples seeking the title of "marriage" would be free to do so through their choice of church. No additional rights would be given. Then could everyone could be happy?

[Laura Gray]

just like jon stewart said, "the oppressed have now become the oppressor," in the case of prop 8. obviously that doesn't mean everybody who happens to be black in cali, because i'm sure not everyone who was black voted in favor of it. being gay/bisexual is NOT a choice. despite what anybody else thinks. it's in a person's genetic makeup, and i'm not making crazy assumptions about this, because they have done studies that prove it, look it up.

anyway, i would like to think that a group of people who have been tormented for so long and have been oppressed in all aspects of society would understand what another groups of people who have been tormented as well are going through, but apparently that's not the case. religion or personal beliefs aside, these decisions should be made in consideration of the people they are affecting. i wouldn't ever vote in favor of a law that would prevent black, latino or any other ethnic group from getting married, because it doesn't affect me at all whether they do or not. get it?

[ann]

I have to say this no one is born gay you have a choice, I know for a fact that gays sometimes been sexualy abused in sometimes in their life and they have a choice to be straight but they decide to to do this. Some of them don"t ever want to get help they blame people for not exsepting their life stly when they go around trying to push themselfs onto people. To be honest keep yor bedroom stuff in the bedroom and stop pushing this onto people this is when people get mad because personaly I realther watch a clown make fun of theirself then having you going around looking stupit. Blaming chruch and harrassing people because they don"t agree with your life stly is not right. We vote on 22 SF mayer is the one who took it to the suprim court and they over rule what the people vote we vote that fair and sqare To be honest you all should not have not been married but those people who over rule CA people should be Impeach or step down. Now we vote for prop 8 we won that to now you all been married or have not been married blame the chruchs you should thought of this before why would people let you all trash the meaning of marriage ??? it pass before then someone went way beyond their job as the mayer and went to Surprim court what a wast of tax payers mony and time when the morjorty of the people spoken how they feel about this. You all don"t care about people you all care about your own self you don"t care if it distorys the meaning of marrage and people blieave in god. You are all not caring or loving you all are selfish this act is out of control.
I know some of you have children good parents don" go over bord like this they stay home with their children that is what a good parents do.
Go on with your lifes you all have paretnership and stop comparing yourself to the the blacks this has nothing to do this is about how people feel about the meaning of marriage that is between a man and women. I feel you don"t like it then take up to the mayer who start this from the 1st place blame him don"t blame otheirs Blame him and the surprim judges

[Marco]

Ugh, talk about re-performing victimology: "I was born black. I can't change that," said Culver City resident Bilson Davis, 57, who voted for Proposition 8. "They weren't born gay; they chose it," he added, reflecting a commonly held belief that many researchers dispute.

Ugh again, but I do find it interesting that this pastor accepts the option of change (as in changing one's skin to white) as a preferable option, and in this way, I find he upholds the problematic construct of racial difference. There is no more difference between a black and a white person than there is between a blonde and a brunutte. Yes, there is culturally constructed difference that has a social and material impact, but at heart, there is NO difference.

However, with gay peoepl, there is a real bodily difference, a difference that runs counter to culture, so this black pastor only has the problem of deconstructing racial discourse (which he appears to uphold here); whereas, gays actually have the task of reconstructing culture. Now, that's a minority-- a true marker of children born into an omnipresent Diaspora.

Gerbils!!

[denise9001]

You people are so short sighted and want to find someone to blame; blacks are not the only people that voted - the controversy only makes for a better story line.

Comparing the same-sex marriage issue with the plight of blacks in America is disproportionately silly; there is no comparison.

In any event, the majority of Californians voted NOT to REDEFINE marriage - it is not about hate or not liking your lifestyle.

They voted to continue the definition of marriage as being between a Man and a Woman. Simple.

[saddenedvoter]

I'll repeat an earlier comment on this topic:

I'm a black woman who voted no on proposition 8. I'm saddened that 70% of African Americans who responded to the exit poll reported on voted yes on 8. I don't know how well exit polls represent the actual vote, but it is sad nonetheless.

The comments on this board have been eye-opening. I see a large number of white gays comfortable with openly expressing bigotry and condescension towards blacks; neatly ignoring the fact that there are black gays in the rush to scapegoat. Learn from Obama's campaign - target the groups you want to support you and learn to appeal to them using language they understand. You can't go wrong that way.
I'd suggest two angles: (1) creatively presenting the marriage issue as a civil rights issue in a way that even those with only a grade school education can understand , and (2) explaining to people that they don't want a theocracy in effect in California: just as I shouldn't be governed based on the rules from someone's bible, Christians shouldn't be governed by the rules of Hinduism, Mormonism, Islam, or whatever religion might end up having a majority of voters in a state. There is a reason why we have separation of church and state.

I also feel that the L.A. Times did a disservice with this [the original] article, by focusing on one exit poll without giving any context as to how this relates to the actual vote, and by ignoring the fact that blacks make up only 10% of voters in California. The only reason to use the headline you did is to encourage scapegoating. It worked. Thanks for making every black person who voted no on proposition 8 somehow suspect in the rush to judgment.

Follow the money. Most black people don't have the time, energy or money to put up anti-gay ballot measures.

[Ryan M]

I have been called a bigot, hater, etc. for supporting Proposition 8. I think those who believe that many Californians supported Proposition 8 because of hatred for homosexuals ought to look a little closer.

If Prop 8 failed, I would lose rights. California State Judges cannot be affiliated with the Boy Scouts of America, because BSA is considered a hate group, for example. Additionally, by looking at what has happened in Massachusetts, I would expect that churches in California would have to cease some of their services, like adoption, etc.

I believe the law should treat us the same, but there is a difference between same sex couples and heterosexual couples and making a definitional distinction is appropriate. California law treats registered same sex couples the same as married couples, so I am satisfied that so long as that is the case, there is no discrimination by calling those relationships different things, for clarity's sake.

Those who equate this to the African-American community's struggle for civil rights against the "separate but equal" argument miss the boat. Equality is already in the law, just read the laws. Same sex couples and heterosexual couples are treated the "same."

[Ken]

Its sad to see a small group of christian people treat gay people as in-human, classified as to what they are and what christians think about gays and their lifestyle. I.E, Immoral, disgusting, etc. The facts are that no matter what person lifestyle is, they are above all else a human with real feelings, thoughts and choices.

Now, when it comes to marriage I believe it should always be defined as a man and a women. Call it "hate", "bigotry" or whatever you want to define it as. I am truly not interested in what you want to define me or my thoughts as.

The reason I feel this way about homosexuality is of a bible backing and personal feelings. The facts are that gay people CANNOT procreate, they can not have children. The only hope they have for normalcy in society and in a family is adopting. Not to say the many verses in the bible about homosexuality being a sin, something a few CA (and elsewhere) pastors seem to ignore in order to be popular and politically correct, so they seem to stick their heads in the sand about these verses and pick and choose verses to fit their own agenda.

I once thought I was gay, and that was because (I think) I lived in a no male household with no instruction from my father on how to handle my raging hormones. Also my mothers view of "its not a choice". So how is a boy supposed to learn how to be a man from a women who would support being gay? Was there no influence from my mother?

I believe women alone cannot raise a boy to a man. They can be nurtures and help a boy grow to a point, but after that point I believe it takes a male to build a healthy man. And when I think about gays adopting children the thought makes me shudder. Shudder not because I think gays are horrible people, but shudder because children are vulnerable and are sponges, how can they not be influenced if mommy+mommy or daddy+daddy live in the same household and are being raised in that situation?

I am now married and have a little boy of my own. Will I teach him that homosexuality is a sin? You bet. What will I do if he comes to me saying that he is gay? I dont know. But we will talk about it together calmly and with our pastor.

Do I think gay people are born gay, or that there is a gay gene? I honestly dont know, but I lean towards the right to say no. The homosexual argument on both sides is very complicated, and I dont think treating gays as animals is the correct way. I also dont think that trying to shame anti-8 people and frame them as bigots and haters is the right way either.

About the african-american voters, I am with Tristan, they voted. Democracy is always tough when you are on the losing side and its hard not to be alighted when you are on the winning side.

But we are not going to get anywhere by framing and disregarding others who have different thoughts.

[Katrina]

Civil rights is about getting a job, employment? Well Christoher Hill, you have alot more to learn. Google Loving vs Virginia. There are so many uneducated people out there. I want to cringe when I read that people are not born gay they chose to be gay.

Thats like saying blacks chose to be black and wern't born black when the marriage between black and whites was illegal.

Ugh!

[Keith]

No two ways about it - bigotry knows no boundaries - and black people can, and in this case, are very bigoted. Period. Spin all you want, but the basic truth remains.

The most ludicrous argument made is that a gay person "chooses" their orientation. So if a black person could choose their skin color, they would be expected to choose "white"? what a crock. Is it ok to discriminate against women with short hair? men with long hair? - the list of bigotry is infinitely long. Point is that humans should be judged on their heart, their actions toward others, etc. Not on superficial characteristics. Chosen or not.

[Paul]

People who think homosexuality is a choice need to ask themselves..."why would I choose something that would make my life more confusing, more complex, and make me have to deal with issues like what we've seen this week?" Put your religious beliefs aside and ask yourself this question.

Trust me, it's not a choice. I didn't choose to be gay. I just am. No matter what your religion says, I was born gay, struggled with it, accepted it and now unfortunately am forced to try and fight to get the same rights as others. This now, especially since they have just been taken away because ignorance brings out fear, and fear creates intolerance.

I ask all Yes on 8 voters to ask themselves.."does two men or two women getting married REALLY AFFECT me and my family?" Your marriage doesn't affect me...strange that a same sex civil marriage of two people they don't know and probably won't even interact with affects them at all. It's not logical.

People also need to remember that their religious views do not necessarily reflect the views of others. They just need to respect them and not try and force them on others. When you force your views on others, guess what? You get push-back, and that's what you're seeing. If Prop 8 hadn't passed, do you think you'd be seeing similar activites like this from the straight community? Look at Massachusetts and Connecticut for your answer....

[aaa]

Chris is pretty much spot on. It has nothing to do with race itself, it's the fact that the majority of blacks just happen to be religious. Religion is the real reason to blame the passing of Prop. 8.

[Chris]

African-Americans have always been historically religious. They view sexual orientation as preference and do not equate the civil rights movement with the gay rights movement. African-American men can be particularly homophobic, more so than other ethnic backgrounds mainly because of the need to be a "man" and to most African-American homosexuality does not fit into the resume of a man. Even as younger generations become more tolerant, many young African-American males continue to be overwhelmingly homophobic. Unlike some other ethnic groups, African-Americans are fed homophobic ideals through their spiritual beliefs, musical tastes, entertainment, social makeup and political leadership. I doubt that this will change much and it is why African-American backed Prop 8. I can say this as an African-American myself. Though I am not homophobic and opposed Prop 8.

[Laura]

"They weren't born gay; they chose it," he added, reflecting a commonly held belief that many researchers dispute.

Shelby, you have misspoken here in reference to researchers refuting Bilson's entire statement.

The available research does not support the idea of people being "born gay" but does support the idea that sexual preference is usually not chosen.

The most recent 2008 APA brochure on homosexuality reads:

"What causes a person to have a particular sexual orientation?

There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."

[Lori Campbell]

I can't tell you this doesn't hurt. I, as a white lesbian of 50, worked hard for Obama's election. I was working on the No on 8 campaign when I made the decision that I was spreading myself too thin between work, my 11 year old daughter and the 2 campaigns. I reasoned that one commitment had to go and it made sense that people would be reasonable about prop 8. I truly thought that if we could get out the vote for Obama that those voters would support EQUALITY FOR ALL. I was wrong. I am not sorry Obama was elected but I am once again ashamed of the people who hide behind religion as justification for their inhumane treatment of others. Remember, slaveholders justified slavery with religion. And anyone who thinks that being gay is a choice needs to do the research themselves and not rely on public opinion as the basis for their argument for or against equality for all. The religious groups LIED. They used children to lie about gay marriage being taught in schools, they used churches to lie about tax exemptions. What happened to the commandment of "thou shall not bear false witness"? Is it okay to LIE about the issues of prop 8 but be offended if the republicans LIE about Barack Obama? Do some soul searching and have your churches now stand with the gay and lesbian community in fighting ALL discrimination. If you want to protect marriage, outlaw divorce. (I don't really believe this....but it make a lot more sense than denying people marriage rights in the first place) Please use your heart and not your religion to vote. That's why there is supposed to a separation of church and state!

[notethis]

As a straight black person I personally, think it is a complete shame that a group that has historically been disenfranchised would choose to disenfranchise another group of individuals from their civil rights. I am also saddened that there are clearly people who voted for Obama superficially, and did not vote for his message- Obama was against proposition 8 and believes gay people should enjoy the same civil rights as straight people. A vote this important should not appear on referendum- human rights should never be gambled away in a ballot box.

Religion is no excuse, I believe that the real bible we all carry is our intelligence and empathy- if we are made in God's image, then how closely we follow this is our true test. If you do not have the ability to use these faculties, you are no different from those who saw religion as a means of justifying slavery, the holocaust, oppression towards women.

[Jay Dog]

You lost, get over it. I voted for McCain, but Obama won. He is my President elect and I will support him. It is what it is. You don't see me running up and down the streets looking like a fool. Blaming society for your way of life. flooding the market with erroneous lawsuits and looking for any back door means to try to derail what the majority of the people of California voted for....GET OVER IT. I am almost positive it is OK for all 36 of you to "boycott" Utah. Kudos to Utah, you will not be missed. One more thing.......please keep up with all the bad press your getting. You will lose by 60-70 % next time. America is watching, and I am laughing.....peace out.

[Tristan]

I vehemently refuse to allow someone who has not walked in my shoes.... to dictate that I "Chose" to be gay. What a moron. Hes old and deserves to have HIS rights taken away.

Tristan age 18

[John Egan]

I must say, I have never seen bigotry expressed so powerfully or effectively as in the Jasmyne Cannick op-ed. Kudos to the LA Times for having such a talented person on board.

[Matthew]

I wish the anti-Prop 8 people would drive down to South Central Los Angeles to protest a few African American churches! Heck it would be interesting for them to even take on my own Church -- the Catholic Church!

They seem to be a bunch of cowards making fools out of themselves in Westwood at the Mormon building. A bunch of childish, arrogant and intolerant liars...

[Rob]

I am sure that anyone who chooses discrimination instead of tolerance will have some sort of nutty justification. In this case "god told me to discriminate against gay people"; why this sort of justification has more merit in the religiously insane than say "the devil made me do it" is beyond me. On one hand a mythical deity instructs hate, on the other hand a mythical deity is blamed for a situation. Interesting isn't it? Then their is the meritless belief that somehow being black is okay, but being gay isn't; and the completely subjective view that one chooses being gay as opposed to one being born that way. I have no malice towards blacks, but I will say that I can and will no longer support furthering black rights, looks to me like the black community has that well taken care of now anyway; ironic that once a minorities status is raised to where it belongs how quickly they tun into the very same thing that held them down for so long. Shame on christians everywhere, and shame shame on blacks who supported Prop 8, you of all people should understand and empathize with discrimination, I truly am disappointed in the black community of California.

[MaryJ]

Despite the obsessive "framing" of "narrative" from the "progressive" left, there is no rainbow coalition of officially designated victim groups marching in locksteap solidarity against evil white, straight males. People are people, not interchangeable "victims" of designated "oppressors." Blacks and conservative Asians and Latinos are their own people, with their own cultures, their own worldviews, their own values, etc. No, they don't all fit into cookie cutter boxes designed by wealthy, secular, "progressive" white liberals -- what a shock.

[Paul]

The sad truth is that the Black population has had a disastrous history with marriage. Facts: In 1963, more than 70 percent of all Black families were headed by married couples. In 2002 that number was 48 percent. Nearly 45 percent of Black men have never married and 42 percent of Black women have never married. More to the point, an increasing number of Black women will never get married. The percentage of Black women who are married declined from 62 percent to 31 percent between 1950 and 2002.

The numbers are just as startling for percentages of remarriage following divorce (much lower than for Whites and Hispanics) and for the age at which Blacks first marry (significantly later than other races). Note: statistics are from bnet.com.

Perhaps for these reasons it is not surprising that Blacks did not support extending to gays the right to marry. It's not an institution they've had much luck with themselves. The specter of extending rights to another minority when their own history with the institution is in shambles must feel unfathomable, unnecessary and insulting.

[srla]

To anyone, black or white that wants to espouse nonsense that gays make a "choice", I have a challenge: try making that same choice. Try and "choose" to be attracted to somebody of the same sex. Did it work? I didn't think so. People no more choose who they are attracted to than they choose the color of their skin. Anyone who spends even a few minutes thinking this through will understand this.

So what's the problem? People are allowed not to think about it at all, but instead to spew religious tenets and eschew logic altogether.

The black individuals who voted for Prop 8 spoke volumes about their ignorance of the very movement that gave them their freedoms. The concept of equal protection was espoused by our Founding Fathers in the Federalist Papers and then written into the Constitution. Yet, paradoxically, these protections were not extended to blacks until the mid 20th Century. Our Founding Fathers had lofty ideals, but they did not yet have the means nor the will to fully realize those ideals.

The Civil Rights Movement was simply a further realization of the promise of the Constitutional Convention, extending equal protection to another subset of the population. The Gay Rights Movement is directly analogous to the Civil Rights Movement in that it seeks to further extend equal protection, to further realize the ideals of our forefathers. It really is that simple.

Separation of church and state was another ideal clearly espoused by our Founding Fathers. Yet this ideal has been largely ignored by many who call themselves evangelical Christians out of a profound lack of appreciation for the very reason those ideals were first espoused: the religious views of our Founding Fathers were as diverse as our own today, and they wisely concluded that, if any cohesive society was to be formed, no one religion or set of religious beliefs could be promoted by the government. As John Jay, Alexander Hamilton, and James Madison declared in the Federalist Papers, it is the utmost duty of all Americans to protect minorities from "the violence of majority faction". Anything less is profoundly un-American.

[Randy]

Why would blacks be expected to support gays? They obviously haven't come to the conclusion on their own that being black and being gay are equivalent in our society. They have a public voice, and they are saying, 'no' to same sex marriage. Gays are attempting to enslave blacks for political purposes. This attitude that gays have the right to enslave blacks and the right to accuse Mormons is completely wrongheaded. This is not how a democratic society functions.

[Jim]

Which of These Abominations Have You Committed?
There are close to 70 abominations listed in the Bible. Here are a few that you may have engaged in:
Abomination: Eating Ham
Deuteronomy 14:8: “The pig also because it is a splitter of the hoof but there is no cud. It is unclean for you. None of their flesh must you eat and carcass you must not touch.”
The Bible says that if you have eaten ham, you are just as bad a sinner, just as hellbound, as any homo.
Abomination: Eating Any Seafood Other Than Fish — and Birds You Probably Wouldn’t Eat Anyway
Leviticus 11:10-19: “But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you. They shall remain an abomination to you; of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall have in abomination. Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is an abomination to you.”
The Bible says that eating lobster, shrimp, clams, eel, squid or octopus is equally as heinous as being gay. If you have eaten any of these things, you are going to hell alongside us homos.
“And these you shall have in abomination among the birds, they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, the vulture, the osprey, the kite, the falcon according to its kind, every raven according to its kind, the ostrich, the nighthawk, the sea gull, the hawk according to its kind, the owl, the cormorant, the ibis, the water hen, the pelican, the carrion vulture, the stork, the heron according to its kind, the hoopoe, and the bat.”
Good news: Parrots are okay to eat and, if you enjoy bat meat, there appears to be a loophole. Bats are mammals not birds.
Abomination: Eating Leftovers
Leviticus 19:7: “If it is eaten at all on the third day, it is an abomination.”
The Bible says that eating three-day-old leftovers and being gay are equivalent sins.
Abomination: Eating Snakes and Crawly Critters
Leviticus 11:42: “Whatever goes on its belly, and whatever goes on all fours, or whatever has many feet, all the swarming things that swarm upon the earth, you shall not eat; for they are an abomination.”
Abomination: Eating Sacrificed Animals
Leviticus 7:18: If any of the flesh of the sacrifice of his peace offering is eaten on the third day, he who offers it shall not be accepted, neither shall it be credited to him; it shall be an abomination, and he who eats of it shall bear his iniquity.
No worries for you here, I hope.
Abomination: Having a Psychic Reading or Checking Your Horoscope
Deuteronomy 18:10-12 “When you come into the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD; and because of these abominable practices the LORD your God is driving them out before you.”
Abomination: Burning Incense
Isaiah 1:13: Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies–I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
Abomination: Cheating at Business
Deuteronomy 25:13-16: “You shall not have in your bag two kinds of weights, a large and a small. You shall not have in your house two kinds of measures, a large and a small. A full and just weight you shall have, a full and just measure you shall have; that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you. For all who do such things, all who act dishonestly, are an abomination to the LORD your God.”
Proverbs 11:1 A false balance [scale] is an abomination to the LORD, but a just weight is his delight.
Abomination: Women Wearing Pants, Men Dressing in Drag
Deuteronomy 22:5: “A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman’s garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God.”
Yes, ladies, if you wear jeans, it is an abomination equal to the sin of being a drag queen.
Abominations: Haughtiness, Lying, Killing the Innocent, Wicked Scheming, Seeking out Evil, Lying and Troublemaking
Proverbs 6:16-19: There are six things which the LORD hates, seven which are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and a man who sows discord among brothers.
Can’t help but think that George W. Bush is in a heap of trouble on this one.
Abomination: Arrogance
Proverbs 16:5: Every one who is arrogant is an abomination to the LORD; be assured, he will not go unpunished.
Summary
We’re all going to hell.

[Jim]

I have always felt civil unions were enough and the marriage issue was not a big deal. After understanding the decisions and reasoning behind the decision of the California Supreme Court, I came to realize that the issue wasn't about marriage at all, but social equality under the law. The source of my rage and visceral emotion over this issue has to do with the contrast of the principle of our constitution and the gross injustice of mob rule. I believe that is why it should be taken personally by all those who believe in freedom and the principles behind the eloquent words of President elect Obama.
It is a disgrace that the black community should vote 70% for Proposition 8, when that community is so obviously dysfunctional with regard to marriage and family.
Pregnancy out of wedlock
multiple children with multiple fathers
black women are the fastest increasing demographic in HIV infection largely due to the intolerance of the black extremist churches and gay behavior on the down low.
Normally, I wouldn't get involved in the black communities problems because they are not my own, but 70% wants to take away the rights of some to form families. That is bigotry. Plain and simple, and bigotry makes me angry.

[Enough is Enough]

In the end blacks or "African-Americans" as they want to be called are deeply racist (against whites in particular) and deeply homophobic, particualrly against gays and lesbians who are black. The only propostion or political candidate they will back is someone black or a ballot measure that benefits them alone. They could care less about anyone else.

What is ironic is this a a community that has always been supported by Gays. This is also a community where almost 60% of black children grow up in a home where their parents aren't living together or marrfied..So much for marriage huh? In short..while blacks were voting for Obama and gays were supporting them, blacks were voting in record numbers against. gays.

[Miguel]

Blacks don't want people "getting in front of them in the line." That is why 70% voted to ban gay people from marrying. No amount of outreach could change that.

[bigwolf]

Everyone says that they will not introduce it in our schools, but they are forcing it on everyone on TV every chance they can...

[John Bargas]

OK, the blacks, the Mormons, the Catholics, and just about everyone else has
voted to keep marriage between a man and a woman. TWICE !!
Its time for GALA to move on.

[fern]

The African continent is overcrowded with missionaries. First the coloniazation, meaning to rip them off of whatever was possible, Mr Firestone should know about that as the rubber for American tires came from there, the Belgians provided the uranium from Congo for the first atom bomb. Now all church denominations are fighting to grab a few souls over there. the religious leaders know only too well the benefits of mass endoctrination and there is nothing to stop them, the KKK is illegal, the NAZI party is illegal and so many other political parties, the churches? Never, the bible is such a beautiful book full of love, tolerance all these qualities we've noticed from the yes on prop 8 people...
It is true too that the black churches did a lot in the fight against segregation and black people are not going to forget this to them the church is great and nobody is going to tell them what the church did in Latin America killing the indians by the millions.

[Austin L.]

The most powerful argument that homosexuals try to make, in my opinion, is trying to equate their demands for some supposed right with the rights for civil rights for African Americans.

When African Americans fail to see that connection, I believe it puts a big hole in that argument.

[John Bryans Fontaine]

Barack Obama's election to the U.S. presidentcy rivals that of John F. Kennedy's. For the fist time in almost fifty, years, people throughout the world our cheering the United States as never before. But had Obama listened to the tantrums of the gay marriage militants and supported same sex marriage and opposed, instead of avoiding, Proposition 8, he would have lost the election to John McCain.

This of course, matters nothing to the gay marriage extremists.

[Brenda Moore]

I'm black and I am in despair of my people. I can't believe that they have been so brainwashed by the church that they actually believe being gay is a choice. Logically then, the African American community should have voted for the McCainPalin ticket because it's exactly the kind of rhetoric that were espoused by them.

It IS about civil rights. That's the ONLY thing it's about. The church should never have been involved. If the traditional church doesn't want to recognize gay marriage that's fine. There are other churches that would be more than happy to hold gay weddings and welcome gay members.

When you start stripping one group of people of their rights you're well on your way to becoming a fascist state and then nobody is safe. It happened in Germany in the 1930s and passing Prop 8 is opening the door to it happening in the near future here in America.

[Elle Johnson]

Let's call it what it is - homophobia. And let's not allow people to turn the word "traditional" into a euphemism for "prejudice." It's time for discrimination in the Black community to be addressed. As an African-American it makes me sad to see my community discriminating against others the way we have been discriminated against in the past. People just need to be educated and hopefully the demonstrations and a concerted effort at enlightenment will continue.

[Thoughtful]

Glad to see you included the word "some" before the phrase "consider discriminatory." It's getting old, listening to the "No on 8" crowd shout accusations of hate and bigotry, when they seem very uninterested in listening to the majority's point of view.... i.e., where they are actually coming from. Understanding is the only way we will reach any sort of unity on this issue.

Like many folks, I don't consider homosexual *behavior* OK; for religious reasons, but also equally for reasons having to do with the raising of children, and the necessity of the natural strengths of both men and women in that task. As one sign put it: "Which parent is unecessary, Mom, or Dad?" We are being asked to affirm something in the realm of child-rearing that we cannot affirm, any more than we can affirm, say, teenage pregnancy. What these folks seem to be wanting, actually more than they even want supposed civil rights, is affirmation. Stop calling me a bigot, just because I will not affirm a *behavior*. Predisposition, fine -- I'm not convinced that homosexuality is a choice, nor am I at all convinced it's genetic -- but the issue is affirming a lifestyle. Sorry, I cannot, and will not, do that -- sexual sin is sexual sin, whether it's infidelity, prostitution, or homosexual behavior.

If marriage is just a "civil union" with legal implications, using the argument the "No on 8" crowd is putting forth, I don't see any reason to limit it to just parties of two -- why not just open marriage up to a total free-for-all among any number of consenting adults, like how business partnerships work?

At first draft, I would say.... because there is an aspect of sexuality that is sacred, and because of children.... that's why.

Heterosexual marriage and much of what constitutes "family" in this country is broken; of that there is no doubt. The answer, however, is not just to open up the floodgates of random a feels-OK, "gee, these people are in love" free-for all with how we define a word so rooted in our culture (and most others) that it goes clear back into common law as a word clearly understood to be referring mean *only* male/female unions.

8 wasn't about taking rights away, as Jerry Browns unilateral re-naming of the ballot measure implies; it was about re-affirming a boundary that has long been established, and does not need to move.

[Dom]

How ironic indeed for blacks to justify their vote for Prop 8 based on religion and the bible when it is that very same bible that was used to justify their 3/5 human status, their enslavement, and the miscegenation laws against them. When will blacks realize that the bible and those who wield it against both blacks and gays are the very same forces? I understand that many blacks attend traditional "black churches" but I personally don't understand how any black church can so conveniently divorce itself from all of the racist, pro-slavery, and anti-woman aspects of the bible, yet still cling to a few a lines taken out of context that are seemingly (and this is widely disputed by biblical scholars) about homosexuality. Blacks, gays, and women need to unite in the understanding that we have all been the target of bible attacks, and for one of us to wield the bible as a weapon against another is tragic.

[Brandon]

I am stunned by the arrogant ignorance of people who should know by now how it feels to be treated as less-than. How sad is it to see that so many african-americans are just as committed to injustice as the ideas they'd long ago sworn to fight.

[Brigitte Moon]

I feel as a Christian and my believes, I have a right to my opinion and my right to vote the way i see correct.
Now I see riots and hate by the protesters against the folks that have voted the way they have a right to vote.
Gays have equal rights, this has nothing to do with that at all.
We do not hate their life styles, we just believe that marriage is between a man & a woman as defined in the bible in Corinthians Chapter 6 versues 9 & 10, which is our right.
Now these protesters are in my opinion showing hate by saying and pointing fingers at the Mormon church and christians.
This is America where I have freedom of speech and freedom to vote the way i feel.

[Jon]

Disproportionately people of color are against civil rights for gay people. They are not "liberals" at all.

[Greg]

If, as Mr. Hill claims, civil rights, "are about getting a job, employment," then I suppose he wouldn't mind if we returned to black and white drinking fountains, sending him to the back of buses, and refusing service at restaurants in favor of white customers. None of those have to do with employment, so it shouldn't bother him.