LAPD braces for Prop. 8 protest in West L.A., vows to be prepared*

More than 3,000 protesters marched near the landmark Los Angeles California Temple of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Westwood today to protest the church's strong support for Proposition 8. Santa Monica Boulevard is closed and nearby traffic is gridlocked.

Opponents of Proposition 8, which outlawed gay marriage in California, were waving banners and chanting. A similar protests occurred on Wednesday night in Hollywood and West Hollywood.

Los Angeles Police Department officials say they won't be caught off-guard as they were last night, when they were required to call a tactical alert after a few members of the mostly peaceful crowd got out of hand. The protest is scheduled to begin at 2 p.m. off Santa Monica Boulevard.

In the wake of the passage of the state proposition banning gay marriage, Wednesday night saw thousands protest in West Hollywood and Hollywood, forcing police to shut down some streets and the LAPD to call a citywide tactical alert that required officers from one watch to stay on duty during the next watch.

At least seven people were arrested, four at the intersection of Hollywood and Highland, where one man jumped on top of a police car. Television cameras captured one protester struggling with officers and being struck on the legs by batons.

The Mormon temple is apparently being targeted because of church members' funding and support of the proposition.

* Update: Another protest is planned for later this afternoon in West Hollywood near the Pacific Design Center. The MTA says streets will be closed and buses rerouted. Details from the MTA statement:

Metro has received word that there will be additional Prop. 8 demonstrations this afternoon and evening and [L.A. County Sheriff's Department]  will be closing San Vicente from Melrose to Santa Monica Boulevard starting at 4 p.m. until the streets are cleared, which could go into the late evening. There will be no traffic including buses allowed to go north on San Vicente.  During this time, Metro will need to reroute buses to Robertson to go north and then east on Santa Monica Blvd.

**Update 2: Metro corrected their earlier statement, saying the Sheriff's Department currently has "no formal plan to close San Vicente Boulevard between Santa Monica Boulevard and Melrose Avenue this evening."

-- Richard Winton and Rong-Gong Lin II

Photo credit: Barbara Davidson / Los Angeles Times

Comments

[Brandon]

This whole thing disgusts me and makes me sick! I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am not going to preach on here, but i still think it is ridiculous how people acted. Just be thankful for Democracy and the right to vote and make laws and have a new leader without any blood being shed. We need to remember what country we are living in!! You need to remember that everyone has their own beliefs and opinions and that Citizens of America cannot act like this. I also don't like how people say things about the LDS church that are not true. Think before you act. The gays and the LDS,people including me, have different opinions. the LDS church did what we think is right. There needs to be no contention is this land, America!!

[Jules]

I'm sad to see the pain that is so evident in the comments posted on this topic. I can't imagine how it must feel to not be allowed to be married to the person I loved so much.

Another thing that concerns me is the vitriol being slogged against different groups, whatever their beliefs. Surely we can disagree with the decisions others make, but does it have to be so hateful? I understand feelings run high when talking about religion, politics, etc., but hate is hate whether it is against people with a sexual orientation that doesn't fit with ours, or against a religion we may not be able to understand fully.

[Geoffrey]

To Todd Clem: You should read the legal opinion, written by the state Supreme Court. Marriage was a fundamental right - for straight and gay people.

[I am actually afraid to use my real name, I may be the victim of violence.]

Hello, When you accuse us of "hate" for teaching religon. That in itself is hate. Gay couples already have all the legal rights of marriage in California. And we don't stand against that. We also don't want any kind of violence or disrespect to take place against gays. We hope you find peace in your life. It is not our fault if you don't find it peaceful to live the way you do.

You are discriminating against religion when you insist that gays have a "right" to change the very fabric of our society. Live your life however you want. But have respect for others who want to live their own lives in peace as well.

Traditional marriage has been trampled for many years now and not by you, but by heterosexuals mostly.

Society needs to draw a line--to say this, this is where the redefinition of the family stops. I think everyone has a line they would draw. You may draw that line after it included homosexuals. You would not include polygamists most likely, or a commune of 20 people who wanted the "rights" of marriage. Or someother combination... you would draw a line over which one relationship is marriage and another is not, it is something else. That is all that we are doing.

This is where we want to draw the line: a marriage is one man and one woman. We asked others in the state if they liked where we would draw the line. They voted yes. You voted no.

Take it to court now. Let the system work, let's find out together where that line is going to be drawn. Let's define the "family" once and for all. As far as the law of the land goes. We believe it has already been drawn by society long long ago. And it was wisely drawn in the best interest of society.

We have a right to our beliefs and we have already compromised very much with you. We have not protested your lifestyle or tried to change you. But now please return the favor and let us draw this line.

[Aaron Hymas]

All I have to say is this:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." (Romans 1:16)

"He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not." (Isaiah 53:3)

[Shoshonna]

I think some homosexuals are finding out that they are not a protected class when it comes to infringing on the rights of others who reject their views.

They don't like it one bit so they act like angry and destructive children.

Get used to it. The days of license to do as you please at the expense of others are coming to an end.

[Changing the World for the Better]

Hey John in Agua Dulce you wrote "We as a community may not like it- but the VOTERS have spoken. Your actions and the actions of those in the "mob" did nothing to help the cuase0 if anything you did more harm than good!"

You only speak for yourself, not "we as a community." Obviously there's plenty of people in our community who are madder than hell and don't want to put up with the "trampling on" of civil rights. You're just the kind of guy that would be happy to sit in the back of the bus. So stay there and stop trying to uninspire the rest of us to change the world for the better.

[Willi]

To *****John in Agua Dulce*****

Thank you for your commentary

Your comments are extremely insightful. You should write an op-ed piece for the Times.

[Clark]

"Posted by: Kinchan | November 06, 2008 at 03:31 PM"

Kinchan, Kinchan, Kinchan . You're leaving out a lot of crucial points from you very, long-winded lecture. (I'll bet you didn't do so well in your English composition classes, did you).

You forgot to mention:

1) Regarding your fertility doctor "friend", for now I call FUD on this one (trying to spread your point using Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). Though there is a case on the Supreme Court dockets similar to this. MIght it be the same? In the case I am talking about, the woman and doctor engaged in a contract and she took fertility drugs for a year before the doctor backed out. There are implications beyond his religious beliefs as she incurred real costs. This is a contractual dispute, despite how you might try to spin it.

Regarding the Methodist Church, you "forgot" to mention that the church was offering a public "accommodation" to all couples "except" homosexual couples. Seems they, like the Boy Scouts, want to have their cake and eat it too. They want all of the tax exempt status and other benefits that come from the public, but they still want to be free to discriminate.

2) You just kind of completely wander off topic here. The point you should take from this is that gays and lesbians DID have the right to marry before this illegal proposition (and yes IT IS ILLEGAL. If a propositional amendment attempts remove rights from a minority, then it must first pass a 2/3 majority vote in the legislature and then a 2/3 majority in a public vote.)

3) Public funds Kinchan. Public funds.

Educate yourself with the full, story. Kinchan. And then think about it.

[Pete]

WOW! I thought the only thing popular culture had the license to hate and discriminate against without consequence was the Catholic Church? I guess the hypocrites and PC-crowd found a second target in the Mormons.

I hope Catholics show the sacrifice and determination of the Mormons if this matter ever rears its ugly head again. If Catholics in California (no, not non-Catholics who claim to be Catholic) mobilized like the Mormons, Prop 8 would have passed with 65-70%

[Matthew]

As a Catholic Christian I am appalled and horrified at the hatred and bigotry spewing from the homosexual community towards Mormons. Yet I knew it was coming. I was wrong when I thought the Catholic Church was the last target that could be unfairly attacked by bigots without condemnation by the PC crowd. How utterly sickening.

The homosexual community who claims to be discriminated against seems to think they have license to attack and judge any group that rejects their agenda. Hypocrisy at its worst.

Keep it up homosexual community! The more hateful and nasty you become, the more you strengthen the resolve of your opposition.

[sal]

as a gay man i voted against it also..marriage is only between a man and woman-i dont see why everyone is getting so upset-who cares about marriage IF I WANTED TO GET MARRIED I WOULD HAVE BEEN STRAIGHT! but im not so i accept it and move on..the gays who feel discriminationare not in the same league as the african american, the latino or the native americans and anyone other minority that has expierenced discrimination....get over it.

[CK]

Okay, i don't live in California so i didn't vote for or against prop 8. However, i think it is ridiculous how the gay marriage advocates are targeting the LDS church. As other people have pointed out, they are only 2 percent of the population. Someone said that it was the funding and advertising that made everyone vote they way they did. Well, when was the last time you saw an advertisement and decided that you HAD to go out and buy the product? The people chose on principle to vote for Prop 8. Just drop it.

[bryan]

AGAIN FOR ALL THOSE THAT ARE CONFUSED ON GAY MARRIAGE RIGHTS HERE IT IS AGAIN, THIS TIME THE ACTUAL CODE

California Family Code

297.5. (a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights,
protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same
responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they
derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules,
government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources
of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.
(b) Former registered domestic partners shall have the same
rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same
responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they
derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules,
government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources
of law, as are granted to and imposed upon former spouses.
(c) A surviving registered domestic partner, following the death
of the other partner, shall have the same rights, protections, and
benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities,
obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes,
administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common
law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to
and imposed upon a widow or a widower.
(d) The rights and obligations of registered domestic partners
with respect to a child of either of them shall be the same as those
of spouses. The rights and obligations of former or surviving
registered domestic partners with respect to a child of either of
them shall be the same as those of former or surviving spouses.
(e) To the extent that provisions of California law adopt, refer
to, or rely upon, provisions of federal law in a way that otherwise
would cause registered domestic partners to be treated differently
than spouses, registered domestic partners shall be treated by
California law as if federal law recognized a domestic partnership in
the same manner as California law.
(f) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights
regarding nondiscrimination as those provided to spouses.
(g) No public agency in this state may discriminate against any
person or couple on the ground that the person is a registered
domestic partner rather than a spouse or that the couple are
registered domestic partners rather than spouses, except that nothing
in this section applies to modify eligibility for long-term care
plans pursuant to Chapter 15 (commencing with Section 21660) of Part
3 of Division 5 of Title 2 of the Government Code.
(h) This act does not preclude any state or local agency from
exercising its regulatory authority to implement statutes providing
rights to, or imposing responsibilities upon, domestic partners.
(i) This section does not amend or modify any provision of the
California Constitution or any provision of any statute that was
adopted by initiative.
(j) Where necessary to implement the rights of registered domestic
partners under this act, gender-specific terms referring to spouses
shall be construed to include domestic partners.
(k) (1) For purposes of the statutes, administrative regulations,
court rules, government policies, common law, and any other provision
or source of law governing the rights, protections, and benefits,
and the responsibilities, obligations, and duties of registered
domestic partners in this state, as effectuated by this section, with
respect to community property, mutual responsibility for debts to
third parties, the right in particular circumstances of either
partner to seek financial support from the other following the
dissolution of the partnership, and other rights and duties as
between the partners concerning ownership of property, any reference
to the date of a marriage shall be deemed to refer to the date of
registration of a domestic partnership with the state.
(2) Notwithstanding paragraph (1), for domestic partnerships
registered with the state before January 1, 2005, an agreement
between the domestic partners that the partners intend to be governed
by the requirements set forth in Sections 1600 to 1620, inclusive,
and which complies with those sections, except for the agreement's
effective date, shall be enforceable as provided by Sections 1600 to
1620, inclusive, if that agreement was fully executed and in force as
of June 30, 2005.

[John Smith- Agua Dulce, CA]

As an openly gay man, and I am deeply offended by the actions of the protesters with respects to prop 8. This is NOT MY COMMUNITY! My community is better than this. I spent nearly 25 years working for the Los Angeles Police Department (I am now retired) and I have a lot of respect for the City and people who call it home.

Since June 21st 1991, I was openly gay with The LAPD- so I know a bit about "hate" and discrimination! I was on the "skirmish lines" during the AB101 protests back in the 1990's as a GAY officer- I had rocks and bottles thrown at me by my own damn community members- It was offensive then and it is offensive now. When I see the photos in the LA times I see men and women who I know standing out on the skirmish lines with riot gear on- how shameful the protesters are!

Prior to this year’s election, I personally saw young men (who did not live in my community) out in the darkness ripping down "Yes on 8" signs out near my home in Agau Dulce/ Acton in LA County. They ran to a waiting car which was displaying the "rainbow flag." I shook my head in shame!

This is not who I am or what I stand for. Those involved should be ashamed of themselves and our community really needs to step back and take a hard look at themselves. In the weeks leading up to the vote on Nov 4th, I and other voters frequently saw stories about Militant GLBT'S from the "No" campaign using violence to get out their message out. For Example, in Modesto, CA. a man was beaten and sent to the E/R- his crime? Posting "yes on 8" signs! In Fullerton, 5 gay men were arrested for the theft of "Yes on 8" signs after leaving a gay bar rally for "NO on 8". Acts of vandalism, and hate were by far more common with the "No" side (and sadly GLBT's) than the yes side. Now add to the mix that I know our community (GLBT) condones "goading tactics" when it comes to religion- I will not be a part of that!

I could care less about the actions of the YES side- they are not my community and I expect and require that my community act in a lawful, ethical manner-otherwise count me out!!!

Now I see images of a gay man jumping up and down on a LAPD patrol car in Hollywood while officers grapple with one on the asphalt. Now we have angry protesters blocking traffic and making threats towards a church- a house of worship. I am not Mormon- but I find the assault of ANY church deeply troubling and offensive- no matter what the name of it is! To say I was angry with the protesters was an understatement!

YESTERDAY! A GAY MAN from Palmdale, CA on MYSPACE said, "where is the F***** Mormon Church lets burn it down!" I took his remarks and sent them right to MYSPACE as TOS violations and then sent them to the proper law enforcement officials- THIS IS WRONG! The conduct of the GLBT community has crossed serious lines with this-there can be no excuse for this type of conduct.

I, AS A GAY MAN, WILL NEVER-EVER SUPPORT ACTIONS LIKE THIS! I will never knowingly associate with people who support actions like this- this is a basic violation of the things I hold dear in my life! Gay community or not means nothing- you cannot justify this type of conduct-NO WAY!

The Mormon Church is an easy target for those mindless protesters- the history of this church makes this clear. As I said, I am not a Mormon- but I respect the site as a church and respect it because of the values this nation was built upon.

Lori Jean, The director of the Los Angeles Gay and lesbian Center made remarks out in front of the Mormon Temple yesterday which could only be viewed as attempting to start a RIOT! I called her at the gay Community Center yesterday voiced my disgust for her actions as a community leader and the fact she claims to speak for the gay community. Lori Jean, The “director” of the gay Community Center in Los Angeles was a real part of the problem in trying to sell voters on Prop 8- she brings with her and “in your face” militant agendas when it comes to GLBT issues- “in your face tactics never work. Lori and her cronies at the Los Angeles Center clearly condone and advocate the use of “terror tactics” by radical members of our community to scar people and force agendas upon people- this is clear by the conduct of many in our community since the passage of prop 8.

If you are heterosexual (str8) and believe in God, then vote your beliefs- Lori and her cronies label you a “bigot” and “hate mongers”. Support your beliefs with money, and stand up for your values- Expect that Lori Jean and her army of gay Gestapo’s to use cyber terrorism to post your information all over the internet!

If you are gay/ lesbian and criticize "the movement” you are labeled a “self loathing fag with mental problems” (or a woman) which is OK with me- those protesters need me much more than I need them! I am happy with whatever label they choose to place upon me! I am sick of this whole thing! I hope that the LA TIMES AND news groups take time to seek out those of us who DO NOT support this type of terrorism and would INTERVIEW US! We have astory to tell and we do not support the protesters or actions of people like Lori Jean- let our voices be heard!

The voters have spoken Lori Jean- from one gay man to a lesbian women-GET A LIFE AND MOVE ON!

If you are going to label those who voted "yes on 8" as "bigots" then please feel free to add my name to that list because I voted YES on prop 8-A GAY MAN! Just because I am gay does not mean I will march in "lock step" with the rest of the GLBT community-there will be no "free pass" in my views for GLBT's who act in this way. I will never support the actions or a community who acts like this.

The best way we can think of in getting out our message is DIRECTLY IMPACT RESPONSIBLE GAY OWNED BUSINESS in this tuff economy and have them communicate to people like Lori Jean and the others that their actions do more harm than good. So, my partner and I have opted to BOYCOTT ALL GAY OWENED AND OPERATED businesses (bars-ect) anywhere in California until further notice. We have no intention of spending money in places which will only turn around and hand it to the militants who want to trample over other rights of others-no way no how! The GLBT community needs to understand that if they want the support of RESPONSIBLE gay men; like us-then they should act like a CIVILIZED ADULTS-not spoiled children throwing a temper tantrum.

To all the Str8 and ‘civilized’ people and readers of Los Angeles, this is one gay man who wishes to apologize for the actions of the GLBT community. Sadly, the actions of a few jerks in the GLBT community have not cast a stain on the whole community- we are not all like this nor do we support the actions of those who violate the law or act out in this way.

[Clark]

"Posted by: phil | November 06, 2008 at 02:42 PM"

Gee Phil, what part of "separation between Church and State" don't you understand?

Secondly, if this is your "proof" of God being against homosexuality, I'd say your argument is pretty weak. Got anything a little more convincing? Make it good.

[Mark]

I've read that prop 8 passed because of the high turnout of the black voters in California, who went to the polls to vote for Obama. These same black voters would be appalled if the white majority voted to deny them certain rights based on skin color, yet they supported legislation to discriminate against others based on sexual orientation. How ironic is that? You'd think a race of people who had been discriminated against in the recent past, would be more sensitive to the issue of discrimination in general, but such is not the case.

[Clark]

"I didn't realize lack of embracement of personal inclination could be considered a civil rights issue or let alone oppression. Discrimination is DISCRIMINATING against something outside of a persons will or control (race, ethnicity, gender). Not wanting imposition of personal choice to a society as a whole is called wisdom!

Posted by: Truth | November 06, 2008 at 02:24 PM"

So, Truth. How old were you when you decided you were going to be heterosexual? Surely at some point you made that conscious decision. Were you, say, 12? Maybe it was puberty. Or maybe it was in your late teens.

Don't remember? It's okay. I don't remember ever deciding to be gay. I just always knew that I was. The only decision I made was to not be self-loathing and living in a lie. I suspect that you never made the conscious choice to be straight. It was always self-evident.

This is the fundamental (pardon the pun) flaw in the argument on the part of all of the Yes on Prop 8 Proponents. You seem to conveniently disregard what everyone who is gay says."They've always been gay." I would be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt for they know what's in their heart better than you. You seem to maintain it's a choice. Let me ask you, why would someone choose to be gay knowing they face the kind of treatment hurled at them by the likes of you? Why would someone want to subject themself to that? Nobody in their right mind would. And yet we have a certain percentage of the population (generally held at 10%, but my belief is that it is higher) that is steadily gay. Hmmm.

It was always self-evident that I was gay. But I could also see how society treated gays. This kept me closeted for years. Do you have any idea how destructive it is to have society tell you that you are evil and a sinner, yet in your heart you know you're a good and loving person? You've never harmed another person but you're given a vile label. You start to create a secret life of lies, constantly holding this secret inside you. It's terribly destructive. In fact, many gay youth cannot cope with it and commit suicide.

How wonderful for you that you had heterosexuality in your genes during a time on Earth when so much fear of homosexuality exists. I envy you. What a cushy life you've had. If you actually get out and know more gay people, I think you will find very compassionate, loving individuals who want nothing more than to share their lives with their partners along with all of the legal benefits that go with it. Instead, you've chosen to embrace the fear and hatred espoused by organized religion. In that sense, I feel sorry for you. Because there are so many wonderful humans you will never know.

Once you understand that being gay is not a choice, the right thing becomes obvious. To all of the african americans who are insulted at the comparisons, there is no need to be offended. It's because we know that there is nothing wrong with being gay. And its something inherent to who we are. It's always been present in human civilization as well as the animal kingdom.

All the other arguments are distractions and fear tactics.

[Brandon HIll]

Listen, I am not against gays having relationships, but unfortunately, this whole protest just reeks of uneducated pissed off homosexuals looking for someone to blame. I laugh that they have targeted the Mormon church. Why not attack the other religions who supported this proposition? I laugh that most of these rioters fail to realize the very small percentage of Mormons who inhabit California. They alone are not swaying the vote. I laugh when I hear that people think the Mormon church funded the majority of this campaign when it was it's members who are also American last time I checked, not the church.

This has been voted down twice now BY THE MAJORITY, which is how this country works. Why don't people realize this? The rioters need to look at the bigger picture here, and get a better grip on why this prop went down the way it did. Was it fair for one judge to overrule the amendment when the majority had spoken out against it? That's not democracy.

The view that Mormons, and supporters of prop 8 are pushing their beliefs on others is no different than the cause homosexuals are trying are trying to push on those who oppose prop 8 by challenging the Mormon church. The door swings both ways.

Go ahead and voice your opinions and frustrations, just be educated on your cause before you do it.

[Cameron Michael Carlson]

I whole heartedly stand on the side of the LDS church on this one. The population of LDS church members in california is very minimal. The 20 million or so dollars that they spent was used too inform the voters of California. Now they have voted and the amendment passed. So it seems that regardless of what the church wanted to happen, when the general populous of california received the facts they voted in favor of prop 8. So It seems that anyone who claims the church is bad for donating the money in support of prop 8 would rather that voters not be informed of what prop 8 would mean for california. its almost as if they have something to hide. Also I noticed a lot of signs the protestors were holding mentioned plural marriage And in regards to any christian people who might the people who might be persuaded to oppose the churches support because of its history of plural marriage. I suggest you study the bible more carefully and you will find that throughout the history of Gods church Plural Marriage has been allowed on a case by case bases throughout its history. Deu 15:5-10, Eze 23
So I go ahead continue with your protesting. It wont accomplish anything except cause a few of you to get out of hand or violent and then you are only hurting your cause.

[Raised in CA]

Holy Crap...

The most moving comment I've read here so far is John of Acton 91390...He respects the right of another person to disagree with him and defends the rights of those who, in the mind of many people have commented on here, to express and believe what they want even if it differs from his own beliefs.

I don't believe that gay marriage is right, but I have utmost respect for this man who actually stood up to those of his own beliefs and called out their improper behavior. I hope that his own community does not persecute him for his beliefs.

I have great respect for you.

[cm]

STEVE T - So what, Prophets of the old testaments had multiple wives. Stop regurgitating any sort of facts you google about Mormons. You know nothing of their church. And the funny thing is THEY DISCONTINUED POLYGAMY WHEN THE GOVERNMENT BANNED IT. So go ahead and bash them if you want, but it shows the immaturity of you and your supporters. There are peaceful ways to sort these things out, and this slashing and slandering of religions is ridiculous. Talk about lack of tolerance.

[dont_hate]

It is interesting to me that most of the discriminatory comments are coming for those that are apparently fighting against discrimination. Funny how I am hated and discriminated and attacked verbally and physically for what I believe to be right when I do not hate nor attempt to promote hate. It is not hate to disagree with the choices that people make in their lives. It is hate to stand outside a building and through eggs at people.

Oh and would like to know what lies that Mormons spread.

[Dave]

"I am sad to hear so many comments from those that are misinformed. Domestic Partnerships DO NOT GIVE THE SAME RIGHTS. Are you aware that a domestic partnership gives only a small portion of the rights that marriage does? I hope that you will consider an elderly californian who will not recieve social security from his partner of 50 years or the many partners and their children who will not get health benifits."

So fix Domestic Partnerships. Don't break traditional marriage!!!

[cm]

John, I appreciated your remarks and wish others in the gay community would be more like you. I too am married (to a woman) and being in love, there is not anything that could effect my love. The only thing that would devastate me, is if I was prevented to physically be with her. And that right is not taken from anyone. I have several gay friends who share that same wisdom you do in your relationship. I hope people will remember that NOT ALL HOMOSEXUALS or supporters are like the ones we are watching on tv, vandalizing and defaming people's religious properties. Every group of people have extremists. I too hope that the city will take more action in protecting these people. I just think the wrong people are getting blamed for all of this. Like I said before, take it up with the government.

[snead]

so it has propably already been stated, but once again here it goes. the LDS church supports ALL people; addicted gamblers, drug addicts, convicted felons, drunks, even those with same gender attraction (homosexuals). Yes, it really does. The actions, not the persons, are what the Church does not and will not endorse. How many times does it need to be said, "hate the sin/crime, not the sinner/convicted". I wish there were words capible of describing how sincere i am at this moment. For those of us striving, trying our best to be True followers of the LDS Faith, we love you. God Bless.

[Steve T]

Hey John in Agua Dulce... you might want to have a drink and relax man. Look at this countrys past. Big change has always come from people like Mark the Protester. Feel free to sit on your A** and do nothing tho.

[John in Agua Dulce]

Nadin Perry wrote: "These riots show that we're here and we're still queer and no proposition is going to change the way we see ourselves or the way God sees us regardless of what those close minded Mormons think. "

OH SO I GET IT! You loose an election so you burn down your community!! RIGHT THAT'S A WAY TO CONVINCE PEOPLE YOU ARE RIGHT! MAKES SENSE TO ME! I think she skipped her psyc med's today!

[John in Agua Dulce]

HEY MARK THE PROTESTER-YOU WROTE: " was at this rally this afternoon and into evening. What an incredible experience. I want to say one thing to all of you who support prop. 8. You call us whinners and why cant we just accept the results. We this is why. If this campaign was fun fairly"

From one gay man to another-GROW UP-YOU AND YOUR PALS OUT IN THAT INTERSECTION IN WEHO HAVE SHAMED OUR WHOLE COMMUNITY! "LIFE" AND CERTAINLY NOT CA POLITICAL ACTIVITES ARE NEVER FAIR-SO GROW UP AND STOP ACTING LIKE A BABY!

We as a community maynot like it- but the VOTERS have spoken. Your actions and the actions of those in the "mob" did nothing to help the cuase0 if anything you did more harm than good!

[Steve T]

Oh the Christians… Come on people.. Everyone should have expected this. This is the Christian M.O.,,, the way they do things,,, who they are..

Christians in the history of the world have subjugated, killed, concurred, lied and stole all in the name of God. It should be expected of them. They always preach love but show just the opposite when it comes to action. They take their scriptures and use the ones that are in their best interest. They discard scriptures that they don’t want to adhere to. They have always been the bully of society. They have always been filled with corruption. Just look at the recent past years of scandal in their leadership. Gays are just the new target for them that’s all. It’s easier for them to judge others rather than confront their own problems.

The word Christian today does not equal Christ like by any means. Growing up my parents taught me Christ was loving and giving to all. He did not try and push people away but rather asking them to join him. But of course Christians today have just taking gays and pushed them even farther away from the Church.

I also love how these Christians say Marriage is theirs… I do believe Egyptian, Asian, Persian and many other cultures had Marriage way before Christianity. But of course like anything else, Christians steal it, slap a label on it and say everyone must abide by their definition or they will be cast out. Typical and again expected.

The funniest thing to me is the Mormon involvement. Christians believe Mormons are going to hell yet they sure can align themselves on this issue. In tears from laughter. I guess when all over they can go back to fighting each other on who’s going to inherit the Kingdom of heaven. OH OH and the Mormon main prophet had multiple wives, multiple underage teen wives… WOW… Again, we should have all expected this from these guys. I know I’m not shocked at all,, more amused.

I hope the gay community keeps up the fight. I know I don’t want to live in a Christian version of Iran.

[snead]

Hey busytimmy, stained our constitution? jepordized your protection? How so? And yes there are biggots out there who unfortunately voted Yes on Prop 8 for the wrong reasons. But i promise you the majority of us voted Yes with love in our hearts for all of Heavenly Father's children. just a difference of morals that's all. Oh and, why so busy?

[pastor in la]

i could not vote on this prop, why? because i believe that marriage is between and a man and a woman. yet, my dear christian brothers and sisters have lost all sense of love trying to win political battles. i can't believe the tones of hate i pick up in believer's words... "you homosexuals" "go buy an island" "garriage". that makes me want to throw up and then read my bible to get a more authentic form of faith from Jesus. I do believe Jesus looks at homosexuality as sin, but he didn't create a hotter hell for that community. But he wouldn't spend millions on keeping his law and then shove it down people's throats in hateful ways.

if you are a part of the church please act like it.

[John in Agua Dulce]

I would like to put out a name of a Chief Justice from many years ago-ROSE BIRD. You see Justice Rose Bird failed to listen to the voters of this state on more than one occassion- she was REMOVED from the bench by a VOTE of the people. To date she is the ONLY SUPREM COURT CHIEF JUSTICE REMOVED FROM THE CA SUPREM COURT!

For any justice SITTING on our suprem court now and decide again to BRUSH ASIDE the will of the voters would put their job at risk- I do not know many court judges who can or wanna work at Walmart. I would be willing to send money to recall a judge from our suprem court if this comes up again!

"Like it our Not" The Voters have spoken (again) and make no mistake about it- the Yes on 8 people have lots of money to still spend. "Focuse on the Family" has an estimated 134 million a year in come- they are second to Jerry Falwells church which has an income of 459 million each year. Now throw in other faiths and our community has a real economic problem trying to get thier message out- after all major net works don't work for free!

Now that I have seen what my (GLBT) community has done in the wake of prop 8 failing, I would certainly be willing to put my money where my mouth is on any future ballot measure which counters the militant aspects of the GLBT community- this would be my way of protesting my dislike for what I have seen with respects to the No on 8 supporters.

[sunbursts]

Yet, CHURCH and STATE are to be separate. Think clearly, your bible is how the State should be run. We all pay taxes so we all deserve the same rights and your Church beliefs should not be included in our state laws.

[CC]

Funny people should mention pushing beliefs on someone else since that's exactly what the gay community has been doing to the general public for years. Throwing billions of tax payers dollars down the drain for lawsuits simply because they want to be seen and heard. What is the saying again, "I'm here, I'm queer so get used to it!"? It's not enough for anyone to accept people for people now, now everyone has to accept your decisions and sexual preferences. Just remember, all of these protests after the fact are further proof that these people only preach tolerance if you willingly accept everything they what you to accept. We can't just accept them as people, we have to accept their ways of life and allow them into our lives. In addition, why would gay people want to marry since marriage is and always has been a religious institution. Kind of ironic since homosexuality is opening preached against by most religious sects, I can't however speak for eastern religions since I know very little about their homosexuality policies. Let's also mention that the teacher's union gave over $1 million to the NO campaign to which they willingly accepted, yet schools all over CA are cutting teachers from their staff as well as many other school programs due to lack of funds. Where is the headquarters for homosexual rights so I can protest them for cheapening my kids' educations?

[John in Agua Dulce]

I have often been asked, "why don't you and Robert get married?" Well, the answer is simple. We feel we have all the rights we need through domestic partnership laws. Many of those people we know from the GLBT community who did get married did so as a "trendy" idea and becuase it was "the thing to do at the time"-the whole thing seemed to be a joke in our eyes. Ieven asked one guy, "which one of you is the bride??? Did your mother give you away??' This type of humor did not go over well-but I had a laugh.

My parents have been married for over 48 years, (my partner) Roberts parents well over 50 years, and we know many people who have been married much longer. So, to stand at a GLBT wedding and watch two people get "married" just becuase it is the thing to do-well it seemed kind of silly to us.

Certainloy when you think that Robert and I have been together now for 13 years; in our eyes we are married and we hope we have a relationship that lasts as long as our parents. Together we have been through a whole lot- my work related injuries with LAPD, money problems, the works! Yet, here we are together. A "paper" would not add anything to our commitment.

We have been asked, "why would you deny a gay or lesbian the right to get married?" I respond "show me where it is written you have the "right" to get married? I missed that section in the "Bill of Rights!" We did not ask for this ballot measure to be put before us- nor did we agree with the court cases that froced this issue. Now it is an ballot measure we will vote our beliefs and we did.

We feel that, we do not not the blessing of a church, the goverment, The State of California, The City of Los Angeles or anyone else to love eachother. Our COMMITMENT to eachother is good enough and our "word" is our bond. "Giving your word" and "promise" is a new concept to many in our modern world- yet our "word" is our bond. We see this as "till death do we part." Some silly paper hanging on the wall will not make our relationship any stronger or more meaningful. We respect the right of people to get married. Yet, prop 8 was a simple question "yes or no" and we voted YES based upon what we saw, what we belive, and what our values are- it is too bad that many in our community cannot understand this. Sadly, we have now let some friends go becuase they condon militant actions and unlawful actions.

It is NOT OUR JOB to fight for others "rights" (whatever you think they maybe) in the GLBT community- certainly when people use tactics which are hateful and boardline illegal.; you should expect that reasonable people like us will not support you. We belive in "live and let live" and this works fine for us-so please do not count us in as "supporters of gay rights" just becuase we are gay.

As I have said, we will never be a part of this type of action at all. If the GLBT community whats our support then they must act in a way that respectful and ethical-we knew from our own communities history this type of activity would happen so we opted to not get involved.

I think it is shamful that members of the GLBT community have singled out The Los Angeles Temple- I suggest that those upset catch a plane and fly to Salt lake City. I do not think you will find that community as "forgiving" as those on the "westside" of Los Angeles.

The reason the protesters don't "ctach a plane" is becuase Salt Lake City would not tollerate this madness like we do in West Hollwyood and Los Angeles. Just like Los Angeles would NEVER tollerate the radical protesters showing up at the first AME church or on Cadrinal Mahoneys doorstep in down town Los Angeles. This church was an 'easy target" for the protesters and that is shameful in many ways.

I think the Mayor of Los Angeles and The Chief of Police, along with other elected officals failed to protect this Church from the protesters. I think the actions of Lori Jean from the Los Angeles GLBT Center in Hollywood were shameful.

As I have said, my partner and I are not Mormon- but we were deeply offended by what we saw on TV. Our elected officals should have been on the telephone within moments pressuring Lori Jean and other (self appointed) GLBT activist/ hat mongers to NOT violate this church or any other house of worship during the protesting.

[Libby G]

To those people who say that civil unions/domestic partnerships are the same as marriage, but that they simply don't use the same term- you need to understand you are fundamentally mistaken.

Although in California, homosexual couples are fortunate in that the domestic partnership law of '03 does grant many similar rights and responsibilities to committed homosexual couples as to married heterosexual couples, several crucial differences remain, not the least of which is that said partnerships are ONLY VALID AND RECOGNIZED IN CALIFORNIA (unless another state legally recognizes civil unions/domestic partnerships performed in other states. Sadly, these states are few and far between.) Civil Unions and Domestic Partnership rights and benefits only pertain on a STATE level.

Likewise, because of this lack of legal acknowledgment elsewhere in the country, that means should a homosexual couple need to relocate for some reason, they are suddenly left without these rights and benefits, including tax breaks (and again, only on a state level- because civil unions are not federally recognized, homosexual couples cannot file for the same federal tax breaks that heterosexual married couples can), access to family court, hospital visitation/right of attorney, custodial rights to children, etc.

And then there is the word: it's not ABOUT the word, but the word does matter. If it doesn't matter, then why don't we take away "marriage" for heterosexual couples as well, and have everyone just get "civil unioned" and it's up to everyone individually to call what they have a marriage or not?

[Shianne]

This whole situation makes me so sad... I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and I tried going to my temple last night as I do every Thursday night, but I couldn't get in... I was saddened to see this beautiful House of God scattered with protesters and signs out front. But thank you for that experience because through it my faith has increased and my testimony of the truthfulness of this church has grown. I am grateful for opposition because it is through it that I can better appreciate the goodness in my life.

[Jose Beltran]

I think marriage is a religious concept that the law extends some privileges, but a homosexual couple can obtain the same benefits out of the marriage. About homosexuality, the Bible says is not an acceptable relation, consequently, believers cant aproove of the same sex marriage. Open mind has a limit.

[c m]

Ha, I love it. This reminds me of a little boy throwing a tantrum after he doesn't get what he wants. BLAME THE MORMON CHURCH? That's hilarious. Here is a group of people that are made fun of everyday and represent less than 2% of California's population, and they're too blame for Gay's not getting married? Lke they were able to manipulate 53% of the most liberal state in the US to vote for this. These people are dillusional. Remember, mormons suffered marriage persecution with polygamy and have since denounced it as a practice because of government law. Sure they may believe whatever they like, but they respected the law. And I respect them for that. This isn't their problem. If you think it's something to do with law, than take it up with the government. The mormon church can't give or take away "rights". They have a right to believe what they want. Just like you have a right to have sexual relations with the same sex. The church as an entity did not donate any money. It was the members of the church. AND THEY HAVE THAT RIGHT. If you don't like it, Move out of America. You are a disgrace to freedom. Protest to the government, not to churches for standing up for their beliefs. They didn't write the law. Grow up.

[John-Agau Dulce, CA]

As a openly gay man, and I am deeply offended by the actions of the protesters with respects to prop 8. This is NOT MY COMMUNITY! My community is better than this. I spent nearly 25 years working for the Los Angeles Police Department (I am now retired) and I have a lot of respect for the City and people who lcall it home.

Since June 21st 1991, I was openly gay with The LAPD- so I know a bit about "hate" and discrimination! I was on the "skirmish lines" during the AB101 protests back in the 1990's as a GAY officer- I had rocks and bottles thrown at me by my own damn community members- It was offiensive then and it is offensive now.

In the weeks leading up to the vote on Nov 4th, we frequently saw stories about Militant GLBT'S on the "No" side using violence to get out thier message out. For Example, in Modesto, CA. a man was beaten and sent to the E/R- his crime? Posting "yes on 8" signs!

In Fullerton, 5 gay men were arrested for the theft of "Yes on 8" signs after leaving a gay bar rally for "NO on 8". Acts of vandlaism, and hate were by far more common with the "No" side (and sadly GLBT's) than the yes side. Now add to the mix that I know our community (GLBT) condones "goading tactics" when it comes to religion- I will not be a part of that!

Now I see images of a gay man jumping up and down on a LAPD patrol car in Hollywood while officers grapple with one on the asphalt. Now we have angry protesters blocking traffic and making threats towards a church- a house of worship. I am not Mormon- but I find the assualt of ANY church deeply troubling and offensive- no matter what the name of it is! To say I was angery with the protesters was an understatement!

YESTERDAY! A GAY MAN from Palmdale, CA on MYSPACE said, "where is the F***** Mormon Church lets burn it down!" I took his remarks and sent them right to MYSPACE as a TOS violations and then sent them to the proper law enfocement offials- THIS IS WRONG! The conduct of the GLBT community has crossed a serious lines with this-there can be no exucse for this type of conduct.

I, AS A GAY MAN, WILL NEVER-EVER SUPPORT ACTIONS LIKE THIS! I will never knowingly associate with people who support actions like this- this is a basic violation of the things I hold dear in my life! Gay community or not means nothing- you cannot justify this type of conduct-NO WAY!

Prior to this years election, I personally saw men ripping down "Yes on 8" signs out near my home in Agau Dulce! They ran over to a car displaying the "rainbow flag." I shook my head in shame! This is not who I am nor what I stand for. Those involved should be ashamed of themselves and our community really needs to step back and take a hard look at themselves.

The Mormon church is an easy target for those mindless protesters- the history of this church makes this clear. As I said, I am not a Mormon- but I repsect the site as a church and respect it becuase of the values this nation was built upon.

Lori Jean, The director of the Los Angeles Gay and lesbian Center made remarks out in front of this church yesterday which could be viewed as attempting to start a RIOT! I called her yesrerday at The Center and voiced my disgust for her actions as a community leader and the fact she claims to speak for the gay community.

If you are going to lable those who voted "yes on 8" as "biggots" then please feel free to add my name to that list becuase I voted YES on prop 8-A GAY MAN!

Just becuase I am gay does not mean I will march in "lock step" with the rest of the GLBT commnuity-there willl be no "free pass" in my views for GLBT's who act in this way. I will never support the actions or a community who acts like this.

So, my partner and I have opted to BOYCOTT ALL GAY OWENED AND OPERATED businesses (bars-ect) anywhere in California until further notice. We have no intention of spending money in places which will only turn around and hand it to the militants who want to trample over other rights of others-no way no how!

The GLBT community needs to understand that if they want the support of RESPONSIBLE gay men; like us-then they should act like a CIVILIZED ADULTS-NOT SPOILED CHILDREN.

To all the Str8 readers and people of Los Angeles this is one gay man who wishes to appoligize for the actions of the GLBT community. Sadly, the actions of a few jerks in the GLBT community have cast a stain on the whole community- we are not all like this nor do we support the actions of those who violate the law or act out in this way.

John
Acton, CA 91390

[GS]

I thank God for Obama, but am I missing something on Gay Marriage? Here we are: at war in two countries, in economic meltdown, people losing their homes, without health insurance as illness claims more and more lives - and ruins families financially - facing environmental crisis that threatens the very existence of our planet - and instead of putting energy into solving huge, real problems we should jump up and down trying to keep people from getting married?? When there are any two people who want to legally participate in American society together, pay taxes together, own homes together, live good, decent, responsible lives together, I see that as a sign of hope. We need to focus on real crises that are challenging all of us, gay, straight, every race, everyone. Get a grip. Move forward.

[Lake Elsinore Guy]

Hey Mark,
The reason that stuff happened to your signs is they make smart hetero people want to barf. Just fly the rebel flag, it will cause the same reaction! White trash can go back to West Virginia etc..., fly your hate signs and flags with your momy-daddy-sister-cousion . We can get along without you.

Go no on 8/ for our children!

[Tamara]

hey Dave and all others who believe "gays don't need to be married." Well if you actually knew what you were talking about you'd see that out of the 1,400 rights given to married couples, domestic partnerships only receive about 35 of those. So if you see, that means that "being married" actually matters. it's not just about the title, the respect, and benefits associated with marriage, but ir's also a commitment between two people to love each other and be there for each other. You bigots really need to do your research and realize that it's not the same. Hmmm... kinda like like Plessy Vs. Ferguson... "separate but equal." yeah, let's have colored separate fountains again, let's just go back in time and pretend civil rights don't matter. And you African-Americans, shame on you. We've always supported you and here you turn your backs on us! A lot of s voted for Obama, and the thanks we get is this? Geez. talk about opression. peace.

[Marlene]

As citizen of this country and dwelling here in California, I have the RIGHT to choose what I think is best and what I believe in and I choose to vote for Prop 8. RESPECT the decision of the majority.

[J]

Reading through these comments, I am disgusted. People hating gays. People hating Mormons. Stop judging. Stop ridiculing. Stop slandering. Stop being hypocrites. Get your facts straight and be kind to everyone no matter what their sexual orientation or religion or whatever. What is this world coming to??

[Aaron]

Hi Dave -- You wrote: I am still waiting for someone to show me one right the gays lost because they can't marry.

Here are just a few:

1. Marriage goes with you on your travels. If you're married in one state, you are still married if you travel or move to another state. Civil unions and domestic partnerships do not cross state borders. Rights offered to Californians under domestic partnerships are only legal in California. If domestic partners must move to another state, their legal rights under California's domestic partnership laws no longer protect the couple.

A couple of important rights consider the transfer of estate and medical decisions. If one member of the married couple dies, the assets transfer instantly to the surviving spouse. If one member of a civil union or domestic partnership dies and the couple no longer resides in the state that issued the civil union or domestic partnership, assets transfer to the next of kin of the deceased.

If one member of a married couple becomes ill and can no longer make decisions for themselves, the spouse has the right to make decisions on their behalf. In civil unions or domestic partnerships, these rights do not exist outside of their home state.

2. There is no federal tax benefit to being part of a civil union or domestic partnership, but married couples have a federal tax benefit because of their ability to file a joint tax return. Depending on your income, the joint tax return may carry significant monetary value.

3. Americans have the right to marry non-Americans and then sponsor their spouse to become of citizen of the United States. This right does not exist for civil unions or domestic partnerships.

[Kayla]

"They can't refer to the relationship as a marriage. Big deal."

hey dave, i'd like to see you give up your right to marriage and then tell me how big of a deal it is. i didn't get to vote on your marriage rights, why do you get to vote on mine?

[Chelsea]

FYI. Why don't the Yes on 8 Protest against Hollywood for all of their funding to the NO on 8 campaign. Oh I remember they are better than that to get involved in petty protests. It was the vote of the people and not of the Mormons. By the way Mormons are people too, so what is the difference if members of a Mormon congregation donated over 20 million or any other group? Maybe you should think about that. No on 8 decided that gay rights were more important than Mormon rights. Last I checked gays could vote without being harassed. That's tolerance. So why don't we let the Mormons vote without being harassed either? And remember The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints did not donate all that money, members of the church did. The people voted and if you want to stop democracy then why don't you go a communist country. Trust me no one here will mind. Just as people who didn't vote for Obama will accept him as their President, the people who voted no on 8 should respect the will of the people. It's things like this that are embarrassing to our country.

[bryan]

For those that keep saying that gays don't have the same union rights as heteros don't understand the difference between a civil union and a california domestic partnership. California has expanded the scope or modified some of the processes in domestic partnerships in every legislative session since the legislature first created the registry. Consult the California Secretary of State for the most current information.

Scope
As of 2007, California affords domestic partnerships all of the same rights and responsibilities as marriages under state law (Cal. Fam. Code §297.5). Among these:

Making health care decisions for each other in certain circumstances
Hospital and jail visitation rights that were previously reserved for family members related by blood, adoption or marriage to the sick, injured or incarcerated person.
Access to family health insurance plans (Cal. Ins. Code §10121.7)
Spousal insurance policies (auto, life, homeowners etc..), this applies to all forms of insurance through the California Insurance Equality Act (Cal. Ins. Code §381.5)
Sick care and similar family leave
Stepparent adoption procedures
Presumption that both members of the partnership are the parents of a child born into the partnership
Suing for wrongful death of a domestic partner
Rights involving wills, intestate succession, conservatorships and trusts
The same property tax provisions otherwise available only to married couples (Cal. R&T Code §62p)
Access to some survivor pension benefits
Supervision of the Superior Court of California over dissolution and nullity proceedings
The obligation to file state tax returns as a married couple (260k) commencing with the 2007 tax year (Cal R&T Code §18521d)
The right for either partner to take the other partner's surname after registration
Community property rights and responsibilities previously only available to married spouses
The right to request partner support (alimony) upon dissolution of the partnership (divorce)
The same parental rights and responsibilities granted to and imposed upon spouses in a marriage

Eligibility
Currently, a couple that wishes to register must meet the following requirements:

Both persons have a common residence.
Neither person is married to someone else or is a member of another domestic partnership with someone else that has not been terminated, dissolved, or adjudged a nullity.
The two persons are not related by blood in a way that would prevent them from being married to each other in California.
Both persons are at least 18 years of age.
Either of the following:
Both persons are members of the same sex.
The partners are of the opposite sex, one or both of whom is above the age of 62, and one or both of whom meet specified eligibility requirements under the Social Security Act.
Both persons are capable of consenting to the domestic partnership.

Example of California domestic partnership certificate.Also, a legal union of a same-sex couple, other than marriage, validly performed in another jurisdiction, that is substantially equivalent to a California domestic partnership, will be recognized as such in California. Civil unions, such as those performed in Vermont, Connecticut, and New Jersey, would most likely qualify as domestic partnerships in California. A valid same-sex marriage performed in a jurisdiction that recognizes such unions, such as Massachusetts, would not be recognized in California as either a marriage or a domestic partnership. This is due to the fact that California statute prohibits recognition of another jurisdiction's validly performed same-sex marriage.

British law recognizes California domestic partnerships as equivalent to civil partnerships in the United Kingdom. The attorney general of New Jersey has ruled that California domestic partnerships are equivalent to civil unions in that state and likewise that civil unions in New Jersey can qualify as domestic partnerships in California. Switzerland recognizes California domestic partnerships as comparable to Civil unions in Switzerland, including granting residency rights based on the partnership.

[SC]

While the Mormon community appreciates the label of "wacky beliefs" our beliefs are not wacky. There were SO many other religions that were YES on 8. Why not attack them. Everyone who is attacking the LDS church and those who were in support of 8 are hypocrites. You speak of tolerance and equality while you have no tolerance for religious beliefs.

[Jack Sevarg]

I'm a Mormon who is generally extremely sympathetic of gays and I honestly like all the gays I know. But the language and hatred on this forum is despicable. We have been respectful and we get accused of pedophilia (absolutely wrong), Polygamy (they get excommunicated by the church), being akin to the KKK, Nazis and other hate mongers.

The church has asked us to be kind loving and respectful to both sides of this issue. While we do that, we will continue to be villified (like we usually are). Keep hating folks. I'll choose to keep loving (even if I disagree on the definition of marriage).

[Clark]

"if this prop is so unconstitutional and bigoted, the federal supreme court would have done something about it.
Posted by: An American | November 06, 2008 at 02:15 PM"

Watch, my friend. It will happen. The props do not go before the courts for approval before elections (Though maybe they should. It makes me sad to think of what we could have done with all the money that went into this prop.) Rather, the courts respond to law suits brought to challenge the legality of the Prop. There have been 3 or 4 filed already.

The courts will rule on this. My guess is that it will be found discriminatory. Not only that, but the amendment didn't pass in the proper way. Two-thirds of the Legislative majority must vote "yes" and THEN it goes to a vote of the general public. This process is in place to prevent this EXACT situation, majority dictating the rights of the minority. The same process played out with interracial marriage, with the black right to vote, with woman's rights to vote. People were against all of these things. "it's the end of the world, blah, blah, blah" and they all ended up in courts. Where they were all ruled on.

It will happen and then the cries of "Activist Judges!" will ring out.

[Craig]

God has created us man and woman for a reason. Any religious person will understand that being sexually involved with some one of the same sex is a grievous sin. Even though you many have those desires does not mean you need to act upon them. It is called selfcontrol. There are crack babies born with those desires to do crack but they learn to control those desires as well. It is something to overcome and i know that it is possible. It is hard but it is worth it. Good Luck.

[alwaan.org]

People who think that if gay rights are taken then that doesnt affect need to think again. Once the radicals get their way with the LGBT they will start targeting other Lord angering things like alcohol , gambling and harry potter books.

This is about a radical group of people who use God as an excuse to force people to run their lives the way these people believe is 'right', not unlike the radical islamic groups.
well sorry , we don't subscribe to your rules. if you like them , you follow them and get off our backs

People who think they can forever treat us gay people as trash are very wrong because we are gaining power and we have money and we will fight back in every state and country. We can boycott homophobic businesses and people.

The homophobes are scared that we will redefine their gender power structure ... your fears will become true .. I promise .. and soon hopefully your little homophobic world will be shattered. Scary gays are going to take their rights so be scared, homophobes, because justice always prevails.

Change is here!

(Thank God Palin didnt win, she would've burnt us at the stake)

[Yes on 8 makes me sick]

I cannot believe the hate that is spewing from the mouths of the Yes on 8ers. Prejudice flows so easily for them. Prop 8 is unfair and wrong. You are singling one group of people out to hate and have taken away from them the right to marry. What right do you have to decide their fate in their relationships? You say all gays are perverted and disgusting? I think you have that twisted. Like you and me, it IS possible for a gay man to love one man without anything perverted or disgusting going on in their relationship. I have the right to marry whomever I want, they should have the same rights. We are forced on a daily basis to be tolerant of illegal aliens in our country, we are to be tolerant of those who don't speak English in our country, we are to be tolerant and are forced to accept everything but yet you condemn gays for just wanting to marry and love one another. How does that hurt you? Are they inviting you into their bedroom to force you to watch what you deem "disgusting"? No they aren't. They just want to have the same rights as everyone else in California does. Equal rights. This has nothing to do with the church. Nothing to do with children and the shameful tactics the church used in forcing this to be passed is immoral, unjust, unfair, disgusting. Those involved with Yes on Prop 8 make this heterosexual, wife, mother of an 8 year old daughter sick to my stomach at the thought of your hate and intolerance. This isn't about you. It's about a group of Americans, a group of the people (that you choose to elimiminate from that group also), that just want equal rights and to be treated fairly. This is one straight woman, standing up with my family to say, no more hate, no on 8, it's unfair and it's wrong. To the H8ers, you will be judged by your maker, and know that this day that you spew this hatred will be what you are called on in the end. I hope one day you are attacked as you have attacked innocent people that are fighting for their rights, their love for one another, their equality.

[KM]

Understanding the Mormons (hoping to clear things up):
In saying these things I'm not expecting you to believe the same way, but just to understand where we are coming from.

You probably know that we believe marriage between a man and a woman to be very sacred. We believe that we can stay with our partners for for eternity. Actually, the word we use in the church instead of marriage is 'sealing'. We are sealed together. We use the word marriage so that other people know what we're talking about.

So to me, it doesn't matter if Gays want to be married. Gays already can have civil unions in which they have the same rights as married couples, so who really cares what they call it? Call it marriage! Fine by me. But do it in a way that doesn't require me to be a part of it or believe it is right. No on 8 would have required churches that believe that acting on homosexual tendencies is wrong to marry homosexuals. You all know that Mormons don't drink alcohol. I would never tell someone that they can't drink it just because I believe it's wrong. That would be imposing my belief on other people. I think you all agree it would also be wrong to require the church to also offer alcohol during it's sacrament service. Similarly, we shouldn't require churches to perform Gay marriage, when (most) churches believe it is wrong. Don't take away our right to believe that it is wrong. So come up with a new proposition that allows Gay marriage that doesn't require churches or other groups to participate.

And for those reading this who believe homosexuality is immoral, as we continue to teach that to our children, we should not leave out the rest of the teachings of the Gospel. God loves all of his children equally, just as we should. If God only loved perfect people He would not have needed to send His Son to redeem us. We believe that adultery is immoral, but when people brought an adulterer to Christ, He said let those without sin cast the first stone. Not only should we be tolerant of people who live their lives differently than us, we must extend love, and teach our children to do the same.

[alwaan.org]

Can anyone tell me why churches don't pay taxes and I do?

Dont they use the same streets? dont they use the same government? the same police? dont the same soldiers defend them? dont they vote?

Why are they getting a FREE ride on my back and on top of that spreading hate and bigotry against me ??

The truth is that ALL OF US are financing the church by allowing them not to pay taxes which makes them powerful enough to take away our rights.

TAX the CHURCHES !!

[MCWAY]

70% of blacks and 53% of Latino voters backed Prop. 8. Yet, for some reason, black and Latino neighborhoods go noticably UNMARCHED by these gay "mariage" supporters. But, what I don't get is this:

If this is such a big issue to gay "marriage" supporters, why aren't they channeling all this energy and rage (used to destroy property, hurt cops, and scare people) into GETTING AN INITIATIVE STARTED THEMSELVES to define marriage as "any two people"? When courts started striking marriage laws, traditional marriage supporters (unlike the "tolerant" gay activists) didn't riot, loot, destroy property, intimidate their opponents, and act a fool. They got petitions and did a PEACEFUL, CIVIL, AND, LEGAL amendment put on the ballot.

Gay sympathizers are simply mad and shocked because, despite biased language put on the ballot by the state AG, Hollywood heavyweights giving millions, and the political landscape stacking the deck against it, Prop. 22 (in perhaps the bluest state of them all) PASSED. And coming from another state in which a marriage amendment got the nod (Florida), I say CONGRATULATIONS to traditional marriage supporters.

I also implore that folks in Mass. be encouraged by this win in California. Gay activists thought that, if the courts legalized gay "marriage" and gave homos marriage licenses, nothing could be done about it and that any attempt of a marriage amendment would be doomed to failure. The court and the AG were hoping to look good by saying "See, we were right. But, we let them vote, and the people's vote supported us." But that ain't the way it went down.

The California court and the AG had at least SIX MONTHS to review Prop. 8. If it were so “unconstitutional”, it should have been stricken BEFORE the people voted. When lawsuits were filed by Prop. 8 opponents to have it taken off the ballot, the CA Supreme Court ruled against them. When its supporters wanted the extra language, added by the AG, taken off, the Court ruled against them, also. Saying that Prop. 8 is “unconstitutional” simply because (to the shock of some people) it passed is simply ridiculous

[Rick]

Rob in Denver - I'm sorry if I wasn't clear...I grew up on Boulder but we live in San Jose now...I agree that there is a growing tendency for many parents to dump all parenting responsibilities to the public schools, which is both hurtful to them, their children and society as a whole. Honestly, I don't know how to fix all the problems that this causes and can only empathise with the challenges you as a teacher face. But, the inaction of some poor parents should not be justification for public schools to take it upon themselves to teach moral values that may go against the beliefs of many. If the schools began teaching/discussing Mormonism in the schools, would many of the parents not object? What about teaching/discussing Jesus Christ, Islam, or Satanism? Each of these are principles that some in the class feel are viable lifestyles but, wouldn't we draw the line?

In my opinion, and I believe in the opinion of most Californians and Americans as a whole, separation of church and state is vital and the way things were here in California, teachers we left unchecked when it came to discussions concerning homosexuality. This is wrong as is discussing any of the above named topics.

Fundamentally, I feel that all people should equal rights but, in this case, since the Supreme Court allowed gay marriage, some felt it was open season to teach (almost "promote") this particular lifestyle in our classrooms. What we need is a clarification of the separation of church/beliefs and state...the schools, specifically K-12, should focus on secular education. I understand that some, those without involved parents, may not learn everything that some in society think they should have but it will not be any different from the way most of us were brought up.

As I stated in my previous post, none of these topics ever came up in school when I was growing up but, I cannot think of one person I grew up with this is intolerant of others be they black, white, gay, straight, male, female, Mormon, Jewish, etc. Today, I'm a business owner with 47 employees, when I look to hire someone, I don't care about their personal life, I only care that they are the best person for the job. Are any of my employees gay? I have no idea...it doesn't matter. I have this perspective/attitude not because of anything taught throughout my eduction, yet my children's teachers felt they needed to teach my children these topics so that they will be tolerant of others.

In the end, I don't know why everyone voted for Prop 8, but, I did because the legalization of gay marriage seemed to open the doors to the state (my children's teachers) taking it as a justification to discuss these topics in class. Had this not happened to me and many of my associates I think the vote would have been dramatically different.

[Jeff]

I'd like to have a constitutional ban on Mormons. Let's start now.

[Miriam G.]

We all seem to be forgetting something. Homosexuality is genetic.... as is heterosexuality and any themes and variations therein.
If melanin is not really the 'sign of cain', but a beautifully, perfectly well designed system to provide natural protection against UV radiation- much heavier in the tropics, lighter towards the poles of the earth- and homosexuality is not a moral issue, but indeed a perfectly well defined genetic expression, then the issue should be easily settled. We need not fear homosexuality- it's not contagious, and it's not dangerous. The millions of dollars poured to fight one way and the other could be used for compassionate purposes instead....
Let's all embrace science and it's awesome contributions, and let's use reason to settle this thorny issue which should not even be an issue in the first place.
K. P.

[Balthasar]

Someone above wrote this; my comments are in parentheses:

Groups such as the LDS should clean their own homes before they go imposing their adopted norms on others. (What about gay-marriage supporters imposing THEIR adopted norms on others?)

Polygamy as practiced by some of the more extreme members of this religion is much more harmful to society than gay marriage could ever be. (Statistics, please? Many many in Utah, including my wife, where I live, have polygyny (misnamed "polygamy") in their family past; don't see any bad results; nobody can be the natural product of any gay union - so your point is...?)

Besides the effect on the children, everyone fails to mention that the only way many of these men can afford multiple wives and a large brood of offspring is by letting us, the taxpayers, pay for them through welfare, food stamps etc. (Again, statistics? I am a divorce attorney. First of all, polygyny was outlawed within the Church in the 1800's, and there are a VERY FEW fringers, who claim to be Mormon or who are called by outsiders "Mormons" that practice polygyny. That said, NONE of the polygynous families I know, and I know a few, rely on welfare. Why spread rumors you have no idea about? Sounds like you're "spreading lies" like you claim the Mormons are spreading.)

Although the "mainstream" Mormons may not practice polygamy, I have never heard a prominent figure from among them, such as Mitt Romney come out and openly and forcefully condemn their brethren for practicing it. At most we get silence on the subject. This is hypocrisy at it's best. (Then you are stupid and uneducated; our Church leaders, whose job it is to decry wrong practices, DO speak out against it all the time; some political leaders who happen to be Mormon (Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, for example) vociferously decry polygyny all the time; apparently YOU are not paying attention, sir!)

This church has an agenda and I'm not quite sure what it is.... (Our agenda is simple and eternal: 1) TO spread the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the Bible and the Book of Mormon (the two go together); 2) To uplift and comfort all around us everywhere we are or can get to; and 3) to incorporate all things "virtuous, lovely, of good report or praiseworthy" into our lives (Article of Faith 13), regardless of the source. Pro Prop 8 is NOT a vote for hate; it is a vote FOR traditional marriage; as a Mormon, American, heterosexual and lover of good people everywhere I would die to defend the rights of all - even gays; but more importantly, I would live for those rights. Will you? Or is name-calling and rumor-spreading all you got?)

[mr.freedomizer]

Gays should have there freedoms, Blacks do. Gays have it hard already let them have the freedoms we do. And if you call that sinning then they are sinning not you so don't worry about it.

Stop hate. It is the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS.

[Matt]

Mob mentality at it's finest.

[DM]

So what if I want to marry my brother or sister or father...shouldn't I be allowed to do that (if we promise not to have children)? Same thing as gays wanting to get married....it's WRONG!!!!! And actually, probably more than 52% of the people say gay marriage is wrong; but that idiot Jerry Brown instituted his stupid "yes really means no" language for some of the propositions. I have no doubt that a huge number of people inadvertantly voted "no" when their real intention was to say "no" to gay marriage!! If memory serves me, in a democracy, the majority rules!

[Dana]

If Mormon members (not the church), in some bizarre twist, had decided to send money to the "No On 8" folks, I doubt anyone receiving those donations would now be protesting outside the Temple, or calling for revocation of tax-exempt status because the Church had "stepped over the line" and violated a revisionist definition of the separation of church and state prohibition.

Let's face it - they lost and we're talking sour grapes from those who are upset about it.

P.S. The church / state prohibition was designed to keep government from establishing a state religion and/or meddling in individuals' religious beliefs. It was NOT designed to keep people with religious convictions from participating (even as a group of concerned citizens) in a political process. The Church as an organization did nothing but encourage its members to support a (not new) stand on a (not new) moral issue. If you don't like it that Mormons believe this is a moral issue - sorry - but nothing new there.

[Dana]

If Mormon members (not the church), in some bizarre twist, had decided to send money to the "No On 8" folks, I doubt anyone receiving those donations would now be protesting outside the Temple, or calling for revocation of tax-exempt status because the Church had "stepped over the line" and violated a revisionist definition of the separation of church and state prohibition.

Let's face it - they lost and we're talking sour grapes from those who are upset about it.

P.S. The church / state prohibition was designed to keep government from establishing a state religion and/or meddling in individuals' religious beliefs. It was NOT designed to keep people with religious convictions from participating (even as a group of concerned citizens) in a political process. The Church as an organization did nothing but encourage its members to support a (not new) stand on a (not new) moral issue. If you don't like it that Mormons believe this is a moral issue - sorry - but nothing new there.

[Jefferson]

I'm just wondering if the shoe were on the other foot and No on 8 won the election on Tuesday, would the Yes on 8 campaign target PGE, or any of the celebrities that donated money to the No on 8 campaign, or a specific area in their respective cities known for having lots of same sex couples? I sincerely doubt that the Yes on 8 campaign would do such a thing.

Seriously, take it up in court, prove the unconstitutionality of the amendment and call it a day. The CA Supreme Court supported your arguments before, if the No on 8 point-of-view is right, then the court should find in their favor. These protests just make the No on 8 side look bad.

Finally, what lesson did you teach the Mormons by protesting in front of their building? You stood on the sidewalk in front of their building on a Thursday afternoon; you sure showed them!

[tammie]

"I'm so amazed at comments like "See Mormons? See! This is what happens when you push your wacky beliefs into everyone's private lives!" The PEOPLE OF CALIFORNIA not just mormons have spoken here. And they also spoken in Arizona and Florida. Whatever happened to liberals who used to preach tolerance of others ideas and beliefs? I guess tolerance is only ok as long as it's liberal ideas and beliefs."

I would really be careful in declaring that 52% is the "PEOPLE OF CALIFORNIA". 48% is almost half. And since so many African Americans, Latinos, and others who were probably Democrat voted Yes, you can bet a lot of conservatives, Republican and Independents, voted NO. Tolerance of others beliefs doesn't include tolerance of taking away other people's rights. Furthermore, my family is full of conservatives, and just about every religion you can think of. And we all voted NO. If you are here in America, and you don't know WHY you should have voted NO, there is something seriously WRONG with this country.

[Aubrey jones]

I'm not a chicken and my girlfriend is not a cat!
The extreme hypocrisy gripping our state right now is a stab in the back in this time of 'Change' and a new shiny president ready to turn this country from

the medieval era into a society advanced beyond the stages of bigotry and discrimination. Being an atheist, I could care less about what the Yesser's say

about god and jesus. This is about being recognized as legitimate members of society, contributing more than their fair share. And why are people putting

limitations on love, honestly? These people used religious excuses to publicly announce that they are, in fact, still homophobic, still born of the

socialized ignorance wrought by an old, decrepit generation that needs to just shut up and retire already. We are people. We are here. We love and want to

be loved, like any human being does and has the right to. The oppression must stop. Prop 8 is HATE and AMERICANS should not Discriminate!

[kassie]

"Last I heard, the reason the Mormon church advertised against Prop 8 was because if it passed, they were then going to make another law that specified that Gay marriage must be taught and preached public and private. Meaning that if the Christian church refused to marry gay couples, that they could then not be licensed to wed. And eternal marriage(not ending at death) is a very important part of the religion, and the church needs the license to wed people to do that.

If the government would stay out of peoples religion and separate church from state, then churchs such as the mormons wouldn't have the need to spend $20mil on advertising against prop 8 as a precautionary measure.
"

Last I heard... yes, last you heard WRONG. Are people so easily duped these days? Churches never have to do anything in their private realm that does not comply with their religious beliefs. For example, the Catholic Church does not accept divorce. If you divorce, you need not ever get married in the Catholic Church again. You can't sue, too bad. If a church does not accept same-sex marriage, it can't be force to perform same-sex marriage. It's the law. It's even in the First Amendment, which we're all supposed to know, folks. And no same-sex couple is going to want to be married in your church anyway. There are plenty of churches that honor and will solemnize same-sex marriage. Unfortunately, their freedom of religion to accept same-sex marriage, as well as a same-sex couples right to be married in their own church was taken away with Prop 8.

[saint74]

Did you people not take civics or something? This country is not a direct democracy. "The people have spoken" and "the will of the people" is what the Founding Fathers wanted to protect everyone against under our constitution, especially against the uneducated masses. We're not supposed to be "voting" on civil rights, folks. Otherwise, the majority can just decide that they don't like something about you for "religious" reasons, and vote your rights away.

We've already had 2 Marriage Equality bills pass though legislature with bipartisan majorities, only to be vetoed by Arnie. TWO. Our members of legislature, religious backgrounds and all, knew all the issues and legal inequalities of domestic partnerships, and they voted their conscience (as stated per interviews) and Arnie decided he wanted to hear what our right leaning Supreme Court wanted to say. (Yes, folks, 6 out of 7 Republican Appointees on the Supreme Court of California, not all too "activist".) They did their job, and upheld the constitution, and that's when Arnie said, we need to respect the Courts' decision. That's their job PEOPLE. The Supreme Court's job is TO PROTECT ALL OF US in case the masses passes laws that affect other people's rights.

Also, 48% is almost half. Half of CA is not gay. So this is not a "gay" agenda. THIS AFFECTS ALL OF US. If you understand how our goverment works and what it means to be an American, no matter how you felt about gays, you voted NO. (We're supposed to stand up for each others' rights as Americans, people, and NOT give in to religious right fear mongering.) If you're intolerant or most likely, one of the ignorant masses who was easily swayed by Yes on 8 ads, their "will of the people" nonsense, their bright yellow happy shiny people signs, and didn't bother to do research about what you were actually voting on, you probably voted yes. Thanks for putting all of our civil rights in danger by setting this f-ed up legal precedence.

[LDSdude]

Love the sinner, not the sin! Harsh, ain't it? Not really. I don't apologize for these words, they are our Lord and Savior's. We can embrace one another, without embracing what one another does. It works both ways people.

BTW - I thank all of you who have mentioned whether for good or bad the Mormon, LDS, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, in your comments. It actually will serve as a missionary tool in the end. Remember that controversy will stir up curiosity and the LDS church will then help others learn the real truths. We members have the right, duty and the privilege of setting the facts straight sometime in the future when we meet each other face to face. So many of you have misconstrued, altered or completely missed the facts in your silly, false statements. Be careful who you decide to hate over this whole cause. It might come back to haunt you more than you realize. Many of your employers, co-workers, classmates, professors, doctors, lawyers, nurses, gardeners, etc are good LDS people who love, not hate, their neighbors.

Tolerance does not mean we are obligated to condone certain behavior or embrace one another's lifestyle choices. Tolerance means we 'judge not', but stand firmly in the Holy teachings of our Lord and Saviour Jesus the Christ and love one another as He did. It is that we try to live harmoniously together despite our differences. May you read this posted comment with love in your heart.

If Prop 8 had NOT passed, you probably wouldn't have seen many LDS members screaming, ranting and raving in a parade in W. Hllywd at the bath houses, clubs, etc. We wouldn't be holding signs that claim that we hate you, or that you hate us. We wouldn't say gays go to hell, or bigots, or fags, or any other epithets, accusations or pejorative terms. Instead, we would hope and pray that we all could make the world a better place somehow, someway with our unique differences. And, I think we ALL realize that this isn't over yet anyway. right? Vote your conscience and let the law do it's job!

[T.]

okay, so the mormon church didnt give rights to blacks back in the day...wow i cant believe that...i mean everyone else was treating blacks with respect...

also, like many other churches the mormon church has a past...all the facts you have all stated about polygamy and something about BYU shocking gay students...all in the PAST and the mormon church now doesnt do any of those things. plus we're talking about the future not the past guys...

everyone is entitled to their opinion i just hope that these protests dont become violent. violence would just hurt both sides.

[mark]

I was at this rally this afternoon and into evening. What an incredible experience. I want to say one thing to all of you who support prop. 8. You call us whinners and why cant we just accept the results. We this is why. If this campaign was fun fairly, with only the facts and truths being told then we could lose gracefully. But instead, just Jogn McCain tried to accuse PRESIDENT of wanting to teach kindergartners sex ed, yes on 8 exploited children and brought them into this fight. YES on 8 LIED about teaching gay marriage in schools, church losing tax exempt status nd whatever else. IF you would have taken the time to educate yourselves on this issue you would have seen it differently.

[Jacob]

I'm disgusted by all of these people playing the "holier than thou" card. Apparently, none of these people have heard of minority rights or the separation of church and state. Your beliefs on marriage are that it's between a man and a woman, and you don't want people to infringe your beliefs? Well, some Muslims believe that women should wear burqas, does that mean all women who are not Muslims should wear burqas so they don't infringe upon Islamic beliefs? You cannot have freedom of religion without freedom from religion.

Until you have a sound, non-God based argument (and don't say "it's unnatural," look at nature: plenty of gay animals. Incest and polygamy are "natural" among some animals) you should not ban people from something other people are allowed to do.

And the people who say, "It passed, get over it," allow me to quote Edmund Burke, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Until everyone in California is your specific religion, that means every last man, woman, and child, your dogma should never be imposed into law.

Just because you believe things are moral and immoral, or just because a book says they are or not, does not make it right or even true. By that logic, divorce should be illegal, parents should be allowed to stone to death their disobedient children, sell their children into slavery, be restricted from eating pork, trimming their beard, etc.

The simplest solution is if you're against same-sex marriage, then don't get married to someone of your own sex, but leave everyone else alone.

[E Rey]

Religious freedoms would have been compromised without the passing of prop 8. It wasn't just about gay marraige and it certainly was not about ensuring that a group of people wouldn't have equal rights. I honestly don't think that supporters of prop 8 were seeking to subordinate any group of people, but rather were protecting their freedoms that they hold dear.
It is unfortunate that these freedoms seemed to be pitted against each other. All the same though, I do not think it is fair to protest against anyone working toward maintaining their own freedoms. I understand that those in opposition of prop 8 are hurt by the passage of this law, and I am sorry that your are suffering, but passing it was not designed for that purpose.
For those who speak of being progressive, I would ask, what does that mean to you? Progess. Does that mean that standards or beliefs of others have to be changed? It does not. As some people say this is 2008-a time where anything should be permissable I guess...at what cost? For those who demand that their beliefs and rights be respected it is hypocritical for you to ask for someone else's in exchange. That was the issue with prop 8 for many people. Maybe not all, but many. Those seeking tolerance need to be exercise tolerance as well.

[Jason H]

Regardless of how you feel about homosexuality or marriage it is wrong in every sense of the word to force your political, personal, or religious views on another human being. If you are opposed to homosexuals getting married then by all means don't get married to a member of the same gender, but don't have the audacity to think that you are so wise that others should be forced to live the way you do. There is nothing more un-Christian that judging another human being, stripping them of their rights, and then forcing them to live by your standards. In fact Christians once faced this same fate at the hands of Rome. How little have we learned as a supposed "enlightened society" that we still worry about who is having sex with who instead of securing our own spiritual strength? Perhaps it is easiest for us to point fingers at others whom we see as wrong or different because it takes light off our own failings as a person. Or maybe it is just that we are truly afraid of any ideas that aren't our own. In the end there is no reward for being a bigot and no law short of death penalties for homosexuals will stop children from being exposed to homosexuality.

There will always be a diverse collection of opinions, political, religious, and personal beliefs in this country. No single idea, religious belief or opinion should ever stand to dictate the actions of free people. That is what our forefathers fought for and that is what this country is founded on. Our rights to freedom of religion and the pursuit of happiness have been long forgotten in this country. I hope to see a day when our constitutional rights are upheld for each and every citizen of this country. It is our duty as Americans and human beings to leave this world a better and more tolerant place for having lived in it..

[steven]

Well, I think we can all try and see this from each other's perspectives because if you only see it from your own perspective all you get is argument.

for those who voted No, it is just that people should be allowed the freedom as anyone else! people should be able to be free and do as they please and who cares? barring marriage from them is just denying and separating out a group of people.

for those who voted Yes, legalizing marriage for homosexuals would be like legalizing prostitution and murder. Not the same I know, but still legalizing sin nonetheless. And marriage means between man and woman, just like red means "red" and not "possibly blue".

[BooBoo]

I've been watching as more and more posts are added, and find one very interesting thing...

As I type this most of the posts are from 3:30-ish PM - except for the very last one, which is from 11:34PM. The odd thing about that last one? It's very much anti-Mormon.

Don't know about the rest of you, but that says a whole lot that I really don't like about the editorial policies of this newspaper and its website.

[Kiwi]

How many voters of Yes on Prop 8 have slammed the doors in faces of mormon missionaries, and yet have so obviously allowed themselves to be dupped by the mormon propoganda regarding this issue........
Voters of Yes on 8 .... " You've been Punkd"!

[Carla Riggs]

There have been several comments about rights that I'd like to correct. Here in California, Domestic Partnership Contracts (allowed only between homosexuals or heterosexuals if one partner is 65years or older) allow ALL the rights of a marriage contract. Other states may be different in allowed rights. State rights are different than Federal rights. President Clinton signed the Marriage Protect Act, so the Federal Gov. only recognizes marriage between a man and a woman. Even if homosexual marriage were legal in Calif., this would not guarantee civil rights in Federal matters, ie taxes, marriage to a foreigner/citizenship granted,etc.
I voted for Prop 8 because of what is happening in the Netherlands since homosexual marriage was legalized in 2001. The country is imploding and academicians are alarmed. Since 2001, the percentage of children born out of wedlock has skyrocketed. The number of marriages performed has fallen, also. The Dutch have always been a very family-centric country before 2001. That has changed drastically.
In Sweden, the number of homosexual marriages have a much higher divorce rate than heterosexual marriages. Lesbians have a higher percentage of divorces than homosexual men. Abuse within homosexual marriages (both physical and emotional) are higher than within heterosexual marriages.
Within the Netherlands, Finland and Sweden there are groups now pressing for polyamory contracts. These contracts are similar to homosexual domestic partnership contracts, except that they concern group marriage.
If the inner core of marriage is broken, then marriage itself will break down. There will be nothing to prevent people from demanding marriage to include polygamy and polyandry if we change its definition. Our children are the ones who will suffer the most. It's a given fact that children need both a mother and father for optimal emotional health. Our society depends upon the family to give children the best start in life. Without this basic unit, our society will begin to fall apart.
This has nothing to do with hate, bigotry or religion. It has to do with what is best for society, and that is a family unit composed of mother/father and children.

[cary]

I first want to start of by saying that there were some horrible hateful posts directed toward gays that I also found offensive even though I very much disagree with gays way of life. A person can still love a neighbor without condoning what they are doing. and here is one of the confusions. tolerance does not mean condoning!
I am glad to have seen a lot of comments that I would have made already said! (like The difference between race and gays (thank you mark) )Can I sue because I am not given the same college scholarship rights as a black person? and how can you tell a gay person from a non gay person if not by some physical appearance purposely changed? Or in talking to them and learning of their way of life! Being termed now as a way of life wouldnt that be more compairable to " I am an alchaholic" or " I am a smoker - or drug addict" or even to religion is not religion a way of life? a baptist lives differently than a jewish person.. A friend of mine said the other day "well they have all the same rights as I do! I have the right to marry a man" And seperation of church and state? come on that was written in 1802 by thomas jefferson to a specific church basically to affirm the first ammendmant to protect religions from the government saying "religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions" basically to protect religions from what is going on here. I am surprised that the catholic charity that had to close down because of the government denying its right to have a religous opinion in a state where gays were allowed to marry has not come up. Lds church members along with other catholic and evangelical members feared the same interferance of government if this were to be legalized and so exercised their own part of the 1st amendment. Has the lds church made any "actions" in need of being looked at by the government? this is a war of opinions of words of speech and the freedom of it. they have done nothing more than you have or anything more than those in support of the no on 8 have. nothing was unjustly done in the handleing of this issue. And jus as easily one could argue about the contribution of pubic school systems of ridiculous amounts of money in support of no on 8. even after the school systems made statements about its seperation from the issue! Now this is different. this isnt someone individually putting money toward a cause that they feel to exercise their constitutional right in this is taking of funded money from parents who thought they were supporting their childs future, their education. money that could have been used on needed books or desks or chairs or other very needed supplies! therefore whether parents supported gay marriage or not they probab;y put more money towards the no anyways!
I personally do not agree with the way of life of gay people. I would have prob. been more silent on this issue though if it were not for the blatant attack of innocent children. Children whos innocency we should be protecting and not taking advantage of. relationships of all kinds and gender roles are very much a sensitive issue to begin with and much to do with the physical makeup and purposes of our body- puberty what it is and means and is for are not things to just throw around lightly. that is why schools and parents either wait for the questions to come and handle them as age appropriate as possible or an age appropriate class is designed to teach them about their bodies and so forth. to teach them about what they could do at a time when kids are developing the cooties what girl wouldnt dream of being with their best freinds forever. but how confused they might be learn years later how their body would never function if they chose so. If we are willing to teach them of this choice are we willing to teach them of all that is involved? Even the government itself has set up age appropriate issues. there is a driving age a drinking and smoking age a voting age and why? because the government recognizes the innability for children at young ages to comprehend and fully understand certain issues! I t should be the parents right to teach to their children what they believe! So I recognize your choice to live with the same sex even if I dont believe in it and the children you raise I can have no control and no doubt over the fact that you will teach them your way of life. Can I not then teach my children my own opinion that the way I and they themselves came into this world is what I think preferable? The government should not have a say in what is being taught in the home based upon the individuals religous or just flat out belief. Like thomas jefferson said it can act on actions but not opinions.
I do however agree with a statement abraham lincoln made before the cival war. that a nation can not stand devided. There will have to be a day when all states are on complete equal understanding on this issue. the government will have to get completely involved. It is a bit redicualous some of the rules in the states already. What is it? new mexico? only recognizes if you were married from a foriegn country?
So bottom line are I not allowed to have my own opinion on marriage that I prefer it that I prefer thats what I teach my children about? Can I not continue to support and be kind to gay family members and freinds and still hold that opinion? I f it is a matter of kindness and civility and non hateful words and respect as a person I would render it quickly but cant I still not agree with you? where is my freedom of speech? well I will tell you where californias is and there is nothing wrong with it.

[BooBoo]

"...comparing Jews, who were butchered and murdered for doing nothing wrong, to Mormons..."

FYI, here's a little history lesson:

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have been chased from their homes, had homes and businesses taken from them or burned, had their entire communities turned out by those who hated them multiple times. Palmyra, New York, where the first members of the Church were hounded by skeptics and hatred until they left; Kirtland, Ohio, where they were once again chased from their homes, their property stolen, threatened with death if they didn't leave; Hawn's Mill, Missouri, where Mormon men, women and children were brutally murdered by masked raiders (from a Missouri militia unit), including many who were chased into a blacksmith's shed while gunmen fired trough cracks in the wall and set it ablaze; St. Joseph, Missouri, where Church members were ordered to leave the state on penalty of death, via an extermination order issued by Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs; Nauvoo, Illinois, where yet again state military units were ordered to drive the Mormons out, and where once again their properties were siezed without recompense, and where men, women and children were driven from their homes in the midst of a bitter winter without food, sufficient clothing or shelter. All because they wanted to worship God their own way. Intolerance, hatred, violent attack, theft, and murder were all used against the early Church by those who would call themselves stalwart, patriotic Americans.

Yes, the Mountain Meadows massacre happened. Ask any Church member about it and they will tell you it is a tragic, shameful event that should never have happened. Yet happen it did, and we have to live with the memory of it. I had never heard of it until long after I became a member of the Church. I have studied it since and understand how it happened, and in some ways why - but that doesn't mean I feel good about it, or that I condone it any more than I condone the actions of those who willfully took up arms against the early Church members for no other reason than they believed something "different."

As for Prop. 8, all I can say is that I'm glad it passed (I didn't vote on it personally because I failed to register in time). That doesn't mean I'm anti-gay, or that I feel that gays and lesbians and others with what are termed "alternate lifestyles" shouldn't have rights. It simply means that I support the definition of marriage as between a man and a woman. In fact I will go even further and say that my definition of marriage is a union between one man and one woman for the purposes of procreation. In the past, yes, the Church did practice polygamy, but for specific and at the time valid reasons. When it was no longer necessary the practice was abolished by the Church, and it is no longer accepted or tolerated for members. Those who practice polygamy do so outside of the Church. Members found to be following the practice are excommunicated. The only accepted practice is as I described, the marriage of one man to one woman.

Do I condone the gay lifestyle? No, and not just because of my faith. Do I believe that gays have no rights? Not only no, but HECK no! Do I believe that gays should be driven from their homes, their property stolen, their lives taken from them by armed mobs? No, NO, and HELL NO!!! (yes, I used a profanity - get over it) Whatever I may personally believe about their lifestyle the members of the gay community are still American citizens.

However, I also am a firm believer in the democratic process. An issue was placed on the ballot and was voted on by the citizens of this state. That issue was passed by simple+ majority. Unlike the last measure this one actually changes the state constitution to redefine marriage. Rather than single out one group or certain individuals for protest, if you want things changed in your favor you need to do it the same, exact way; via the democratic process. Approach your Assemblyman, Senator, Representative and ask them to amend state and federal tax codes to give the same advantages married couples enjoy to those who are in a domestic partnership. I can honestly say that if you did that I would support you fully in your endeavor. What I cannot condone is the anti-social vitriol that you have chosen instead.

[Katy]

I have read many of the posts on this article and I have two main feelings.
1. A lot of people don't know what they are talking about, and that goes on both sides. When I first started investigating the issue I was taken in by many persuasive arguments that perhaps were not giving the full picture. I looked more deeply and found out a lot of things on both sides. I have many family members that are in same sex-relationships. I had to weigh the issue very carefully, and I had to look beyond just what people put on signs or in pamphlets.

2. I think a lot of people are getting angry, and it is just plain silly. Tolerance and respect should be shown no matter what your beliefs are. I am sorry for all those that are hurting now from this new law, but it has passed and the best route to change anything is to go through the legal process, not by getting violent.

To answer a question that was put forth about Gay Mormons and how they feel, I would have to say, I feel for them. I believe that there are many reasons why people find themselves in homosexual relationships, whether by genetics, abuse, social influences, low self image, etc. What ever the case maybe, I am sorry, but the beliefs of the church are that you are celibate until you are married, and only heterosexual marriages are recognized by God.

My question is.....did the California judges have the right to make new law? Shouldn't it have been declared unconstitutional and then been taken to the Legislative branch to determine the law? I mean, that is what they are saying now about Prop 8 being passed, that it really should have been taken to the legislative branch.

If you were wondering, I voted yes on prop 8 after a lot of deliberation.

[oshea]

I am sad to hear so many comments from those that are misinformed. Domestic Partnerships DO NOT GIVE THE SAME RIGHTS. Are you aware that a domestic partnership gives only a small portion of the rights that marriage does? I hope that you will consider an elderly californian who will not recieve social security from his partner of 50 years or the many partners and their children who will not get health benifits.

Californians who are straight and gay are protesting in the streets against discrimination. They are not asking for their beliefs to be shared. They are asking that everyone continue to have the same protections under law. Many of the groups who oppose proposition 8 are the same groups that have consistantly opposed any violations of anyone's civil rights.

To those of you who have brought our new president elect into the discussion Barack Obama has clearly stated that he opposes prop 8 and has stated that it is "devisive and discriminitory."

I understand many were offended by the Sarah Palin art piece in west hollywood. This is not something that every gay person in CA endorsed I'm sure that their are many gay Californians who were also offended... in fact I've spoken to some. A gay man from whittier told me that he found it to be in very poor taste and a silly ploy for fame by the artist. Please don't asume that any act by one person can be used to judge an entire community or group.

Finally to those of you who have said that the "gays" are whining and why don't they cut it out I hope you realize you are the last person that gay people and californians with morals will be listening to. This will not stop. People of every race, religion, gender and sexual orientation will always fight for equality until they have it. The only way to end this is to accept that everyone deserves to be treated fairly under the law.

I hope that by getting the facts many of the people who supported prop 8 will be able to see through deceptive adds and see discrimination for what it is Wrong!!!!

[Brett]

Please look up the difference between domestic partnership and marriage. Very different. The Mormon church donated millions of dollars to the Yes campaign which is why they deserve the protests in front of their church. The is a Civil Rights issue. Once upon a time not long ago it was illegal for blacks and whites to get married, which was supported by Christians. This is the same thing and will be overturned by the supreme court. So congratulations religious people you wasted your time and money. By the way, the prop would have never passed if it wasn't for all the tv adds that were completely untrue but hey, you religious people are some of the easiest influenced suckers around. You all believe a bunch of made up non-sense and make fun of RATIONAL thinkers. That's a pretty easy target if you ask me.

[Jeff]

Are you people totally dense? Personally, I think that marriage should be handled by churches and that the government should stay out of it. However, if the government insists on granting people the right to marry, it should allow consenting adults to do so regardless of sexual orientation across the period. Same sex marriage does not infringe on the rights of other citizens. The only reason that people supporting Prop 8 did so is merely wanting to use the power of government to impose THEIR misguided religious or personal beliefs on others. I don't give a crap about your Bible or your personal feelings. If the government is granting a right, sexual orientation is not a valid reason to take away that right,

[Richard]

I am a gay man who is 51 years old and I voted No on Prop 8 and gave money to the No on 8 campaign and contacted everyone I could think of about the proposition and urged them to vote No and also donate if they could.
I was very saddened and disappointed that Prop 8 passed by a slim margin especially after the historic and exhilarating election of Barack Obama whose campaign I had worked on as a volunteer and also donated funds to.
The protest tonight in Westwood caught me off guard. I am disabled and do not get out much and had a ticket to attend my first concert in years tonight at UCLA. However, because of the protests, it was impossible to get to UCLA and into Westwood.
I spent five hours in my car and was unable to ever get near my destination.
Believe me, I consider myself a progressive. But disrupting traffic flow in a city that is beyond congested and forcing street closures and making people sit in their cars for hours without moving with gas prices so high is not going to win people to our side.
The people who voted Yes on Prop 8 are not going to change their minds based on people disrupting thier lives. They need to see gays and lesbians being productive, not destructive.
Interestingly, while in my car, KCRW's "Which Way L.A." had on a university professor who said that the Yes on 8 people hired a 30-year veteran marketing whiz with much success on getting conservative agenda ballot measures to go their way. Although the professor seemed very sympathetic to the side of same-sex marriage he said that the No on 8 ads were not well-focused and did not explain the issue. More importantly, with African-Americans coming out in force to vote for Obama, 70% of the black community -- more than any other minority group -- voted in favor of Prop 8. Where was the outreach by the No on 8 side to go into black churches and educate them to the issue? If you go to the Secretary of State website one can see that Northern California counties and Central Coast (Monterey and Santa Barbara) voted against Prop 8. It was L.A. County that could have made the difference. It won here narrowly but if the proper outreach had been directed at the large minority populations in Los Angeles the outcome could have been different.
Be that as it may, the voters spoke. Now it's up to the courts. Disrupting people's lives so that they can't go to work or school or to anything else in Los Angeles is not responsible. And it's not going to win over hearts and minds. After I finally pulled over for a while and then decided to try driving again, rowdy No on 8 people -- and these are my GLBT brothers and sisters -- had their car windows down, were screaming profanities at passersby, cranking up their car window -- how does this make us seem responsible?

[Brother]

a few things need to be addressed.

First, The church of Jesus Christ of Later-day Saints did contribute to the election, however, they only gave a total of $2,078.00. Far less then many other organizations. Yes many members of the church gave quite a large amount of money, but the church itself only gave a little more then two thousand dollars.

Second, all those who throw around the word bigot, know what it means when you use it. and that’s both sides of the argument.
-a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Third, I believe that an apology is necessary from both sides, For all those who are pro prop 8, and who have truly made hateful comments, such as Posted by: Jeff | November 06, 2008 at 01:10 PM , yes things such as that can be hateful and wrong. with that said, there is a lot of people who were against prop 8 and are just as hateful. Ask yourself, do you hate me because of what I believe, and really think about it, don’t just spout off the response, "I’m gay so I must be tolerant", just like anyone else, you can be gay and hate too.

Since when was there a tyranny on tolerance, why must those who do not believe in gay marriage be tolerant of the homosexual community, but the homosexual community can be as hateful as they chose. I tend to remember a commercial against prop 8 that showed two Mormon missionaries storming into a home and ripping up a marriage license of a lesbian couple. I don’t know if I fully understand what a bigot truly is, but I do think that that would be an example.

If you have a real point to add, and are not going to just call me a bigot, cus me out, of scream at me for hateing gays, maybe you have something to add, and i would be happy to listen. other then that, move on. and that goes for both sides.

I always think that it is ok for there to be open discussion on most things, including this. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hate gay people. They don’t tell them that they can not come to church because they have homosexual tendencies. What they do believe is that no person shall have sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage. This means that a man that is sexually attracted to another man, should not act on those feelings, just like a man who is sexually attracted to a woman, should not act on those feelings.

Just so you know, my younger sister is gay, as well as my uncle, I still love them both, but I still voted yes for prop 8

[comeonalready]

Why can't we just separate church and state already?!?! Call ALL marriages between ANY pair of consenting adults CIVIL UNIONS, for legal purposes. Everyone gets the same federal rights. People can call it marriage or whatever in the privacy of their own church or home. Churches can decide on an individual basis whether to allow same sex marriages in their church. This leaves everything to the private sector and doesn't force others' beliefs on people who don't want them. Haven't we learned anything in this country?? Doesn't every American have the right to pursue life, liberty, and happiness? I would think this issue falls into that category big time.

[Carla]

Oh just a reminder, being GAY or Lesbian and being a person of color isn't an either or proposition.

There ARE a lot of Gay and Lesbian Minorities as well!

[carla]

It seems like a bunch of big guys who claimed to be Mormons just attacked a bunch of no on 8 protestors outside of the Mormon temple.

A girl got her face busted open and a couple other no on 8 protestors beat up as well. 3 protesters have just been sent to the hospital.

[Disappointed dem]

Wow....there are some really uninformed, underinformed and completely misguided people out there! What a sad day!! I thought we had come further as a state.

Many of you claim marriage is not a right. So, what is it then, a privilege? A privilege offered only to certain people? That is by definition discrimination!!

Just in case you are not aware of this fact.....at least 1 student and up to 100% of students in EVERY classroom in America is living in what you all refer to as an "alternative family"....2 moms, 2 dads, single parent, parents deceased and being raised by grandparents or others, adopted, etc.....This is a fact. Traditional marriages and families are no longer the "norm". You cannot change it, so you better learn to accept it!!

It is estimated that only 10% of American families constitute a "traditional marriage and family" consisting of a working husband, and a stay-at-home wife and children. If we are to follow your same flawed reasoning, then doesn't that mean that couples where the women work outside the home should not be allowed to be married?? Becasue that goes against the traditional marriages you are all referring to!

Can someone answer this.....Has the fact that gay and lesbian couples have been able to marry for the last few months changed anyone's traditional marriage or belief system? Forced them to believe something different? Torn apart their marriage? Has the sky fallen or the world come to an end? I say not!

Anyone who believes that gay marriage is not in line with their religious or other beliefs can keep on believing that. No one is trying to change your mind, or your belief system. You just do NOT have the right to force your beliefs on anyone else!

And in response to a few comments that say "GAYS DON'T NEED TO BE MARRIED. It's just not necessary." Who are you to decide what is necessary for someone other than yourself??

How about I say you do not need to have children? You obviously will be teaching your children hate and that is just not necessary! Therefore we are going to regulate your right to have children!

[Mike Frazier]

There are a few things I find interesting about these protests.

One is that one of the themes of the "no on 8" campaign was that proposition 8 was hateful. Yet, no person that I worked with on the yes on 8 campaign ever had anything bad to say about homosexual people. It was a campaign about keeping marriage as it has been and how it should be: between a man and a woman.

My belief as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that marriage is ordained of God. It is meant to be between a man and a woman. It is the union that brings spirits from heaven onto this earth. That can't happen between two members of the same sex.

On a civil level, marriage is important because it guarantees continued population growth and is therefore beneficial to the state/country.

For me personally, it was very important to grow up with a mother and a father. Women are given special gifts from God to be able to do things that men can't do as well, as are men given special gifts from God to be able to do things that women can't do as well. It's a divine design and I love being married. I love our son.

But in the end, the reason I voted for prop 8 is because homosexuality is morally wrong and should not be legalized. The world already has so many things that take people away from what is truth. The truth is that people can't do wrong and feel right. It's against our nature as children of God. Legalizing immoral behavior doesn't end up making anyone happy.

[drumstick]

PROPOSITION 8.1: TAX THE CHURCHES!

If you want to get involved in how the state regulates CIVIL marriage for private citizens, you are playing politics like another other lobby group or business, you should pay corporate taxes like they do.

[David S.]

The ideal family unit is a man and a woman..this traditional family has the potential to do the greatest good in the world...sadly today families are being based on faulty foundations. The government has recognized this since at least 1983....there were hearings given before the 98th congress about the break up of the traditional family unit, it has only become worse since then....There is far to much selfishness going into and existing in marriage today....but what can we expect, this is how relationships are presented to us youth in movies and song lyrics....i hope more will be done for the traditional family unit, the government either failed or gave up since 83, so it is up to us.....please those who read this go home tell your family you love them, work to free yourself of selfishness in your relationship and seek to serve them without in expectation of return....Thank you -From the College Organization 1+ 1>2-

[Eric]

It is the voice of the people that defines "rights". The gay community is angry because the process backfired against them. When we can't agree on an issue, we vote on it. We voted and you lost. Case and point! Call it what you want, blame the mormons, but the fact is that the majority of Californians felt the same way. That is why Proposition 8 passed. Don't be such sore losers and crybabies. Get over it!

[Lisa]

THIS HAS BEEN SAID ONCE AND I WILL SAY IT AGAIN. THE MORMON CHURCH DID NOT WRITE ONE BIG CHECK IN SUPPORT. NO WHERE WILL IT BE FOUND THAT THE CHURCH GAVE MONEY. INDIVIDUAL MEMBERS GAVE MONEY THEY WORK HARD FOR IT AND THEY CHOSE TO GIVE TO THE CAUSE. YES THE LEADERS ASKED FOR THE MEMBERS TO GIVE OF THEIR TIME AND MEANS BUT NO WHERE DID THEY USE THE WORDS MONEY. IT WAS OF OUR OWN FREE WILL WE DONATED WHAT WE INDIVIDUALLY FELT WE COULD. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER INDIVIDUAL WHO GAVE MONEY FOR THE NO CAUSE........THE PROBLEM IS YOU ALL LOST. YOUR SIDE RAISED TWICE AS MUCH AS THE YES SUPPORTERS, YOUR COMMERCIALS AIRED TWICE AS OFTEN AS YES SUPPORTED COMMERCIALS.......YET WITH FEWER FUNDS AND LESS COMMERCIAL TIME DOESN'T THAT SAY THAT THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE WAS HEARD.

YES SUPPORTERS DIDN'T HAVE THE BACKING OF FAMOUS CELEBERTIES THAT POURED IN MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. YOU DON'T SEE YES SUPPORTERS OUT PROTESTING AGAINST THE MOVIE INDUSTRY OR VOWING NOT TO SUPPORT THOSE CELEBERTIES MOVIES. THAT WOULD BE JUST FOOLISH.......