L.A. City Hall is focused on 'grand' Prop. 8 protest, prepare for gridlock

Plans are afoot to organize protests against Prop. 8 at every major city hall in California Saturday -- with the local focus being on L.A. City Hall (which was famous for those huge immigration rallies a few years ago).

Organizers are urging activists from around the country and Canada to converge on California and are hoping for tens of thousands of participants. Last week's protests slowly grew in size from hundreds on the Westside Thursday to 12,000 on Saturday night in Silver Lake.

These protests have caused major traffic problems. Some people say they were slowed down but support the cause. Others curse the No-on-8 demonstrators for worsening L.A.'s already awful traffic. A sample of the debate on City-Data.com:

Thanks for having your little protests during a weekday, during rush hour. How remarkably thoughtful. I guess you people believe traffic moves too quickly on the Westside, so hey, it won't inconvenience anybody by having your little sit-in's and so fourth. Thanks for that.

And...

You're whining up a storm about getting stuck in traffic. ...You live in L.A.! And you're brushing off the feelings of these people like Prop 8 was nothing, like they're just "throwing a hissy fit" because they didn't "get their way."

--Jessica Garrison and Shelby Grad

Related:

L.A. Jews strongly opposed Prop. 8

Stop blaming blacks for Prop. 8's passage.

Interactive Maps: Comparing Prop. 4 and Prop. 8 results; comparing Prop. 8 and Prop. 22 results.

Photo: LAT file

Comments

[fgiles]

A number of years age I attended a protestant wedding. At one point in the ceremony, the pastor presented the coupe to the audience and spoke at some length about the need for us, the community to support and approve of the newly created family. Also, old-fashioned wedding ceremonies included a line something like: “If anyone here knows a reason why these two people should not be joined in matrimony, let him speak now or forever hold his peace.”
In the modern times of civil union laws, this symbolic aspect of marriage, the recognition and approval of the community, is all that appears to be at stake.

In a religious context this approval also includes the blessing of God on the union.

While I agree that homosexuals have a civil right to free association, I assert that no one has a civil right to society’s approval.

Many have said that the decision by majorities in California and many other states to “speak now” and withhold society’s approval indicates intolerance. On the contrary, tolerance and approval are very different things. If fact, by the plain English meanings, it is not possible to tolerate something unless you also disapprove of it. By asserting disapproval, yet opposing laws criminalizing homosexuality, the citizens of California demonstrated an admirable degree of tolerance.

[greg]

Some of the comments here show just breathtaking ignorance.

It is so sad. In 50 years, probably sooner than that, everyone will wonder what on earth this fuss was all about. They will look at the prop 8 proponents the same way we look at the witch burners of Salem. The same way we look at the people installing separate drinking fountains in Alabama.

What if You were stripped of your civil rights by half of your neighbors. Maybe half the population decided that Mormons are an abomination. Or Jehovah's Witnesses, or the fat or the short. Whatever it is. Would you just "get over it ? "
That suggestion is the most insulting thing after the injury. But I'm afraid, that is exactly what these people want. To hurt.

They say that I'm disgusting because I'm attracted to my own sex. Well I can deal with that. I find the thought of sex between many people pretty discussing too. But to use THAT as a basis to deny them their human dignity is just plain wrong. If we go down that path, who is safe anymore ?

The bottom line is this. Some people find the thought of sex between two men gross. All the other reasons to deny me my equal status are just rationalizations. But the Constitution says: "All men are created equal." They are not less equal just because we find them disgusting.

[Rick Hohman]

As a gay man that voted no on 8 I just want to say that the way the no on 8 campaign has been handled is very disappointing. First an add campaign not nearly strong enough followed by ill planned protests. On a day that over 800 of our fellow angelino's lost their homes. We chose to go ahead and protest at city hall On a Saturday when City hall is not even open for buisness. Who planned this? Are you serious? Come on, Grow up Gay L.A.

[Valentina]

Agreed Jim. It's funny how many people are actually criticizing other American citizens for exercising their freedom to speak and assemble. This country was made great by people who fought for their rights no matter the consequences.

If one believes that the civil/human rights of any American have been violated, then it is their duty, gay or straight, to express that outrage to their fellow citizens, our government, and the world. That's what being an an American is about. Case closed.

To all who do criticize: If your marriage, or any of your God given rights had been revoked by popular vote, you would be just as outraged, and if you would not take to the streets for your rights, I pity you.

First they come for the Gays, then they come for you.

[seven]

This is a human rights issue. This is an American issue. This is not about majority rule. If the right for blacks to vote had been put to majority rule in the south, they would still not be able to vote today. The same is true for women having the right to vote. Do you honestly think that all the male voters would have voted for that? NO, they wouldn't. I am gay and was born that way. I did not make a choice. With all the haters in the world (mostly religious), who would choose to be gay? I am not immoral. To muslins, women who show the face and arms and legs, as most Christian women do, are considered immoral and disgusting. It doesn't make it true. Up until 1967 many states had laws forbidding interracial marriage. That was the way, based upon religious small minded bigotry, that things had always been set up. It was WRONG. So, as the world evolved, things changed and those laws were overturned. More than being gay, I am an American citizen. I DESERVE the
same rights as anyone else here. You may have heard of "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness". I have a fundamental right to all of this, whether the majority thinks so or not. Its not about sex, or who you have it with. Its about love. I have the right to marry the man I love just as anyone else does. The foundation of this country is EQUALITY, NOT religion OR FAMILIES. You people, who don't like us and think our rights should not be equal to yours, are no different than NAZIS. You feel about us the same way they felt about the Jews. You see us as less than human. Its is very interesting since the nazis, like the american slave holders, were Christians too. We are not a danger to you or your families. We are not interested in recruiting you. We don't want to take ANYTHING from you. You have done a fine job of making a mockery of marriage all by yourselves. One in every three girls in this country is molested by the age of 20, usually by a member of her own family. Well, it ain't us gays doing that. Maybe you are not aware of the current divorce rate? Perhaps you are not aware that the only reason Protestantism came into existence was so the King of England could get a divorce. This simply is not an issue that should have been put to a vote. I recall something called separation of church and state. I really find it offensive that the love I might have for another man would be compared to the love of a dog. You may not realize it , but two adults who truly care about each other and happen to be the same sex is NO DIFFERENT than two straight people feeling that way and wanting to get married. Why would you compare that to someone marrying their own son or sister? You call us disgusting and demented and various other things. But, I ask you, where is the love in that? WHERE? You hateful people are the ones for whom marriage is supposed to be saved? You, with all of your hate and small minded evil intentions are supposed to be the good parents of future generations? VERY VERY SAD. Here is one thing you can count on. WE WILL NOT GO AWAY. WE WILL NOT BACK DOWN. WE WILL NOT STOP UNTIL WE HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS. PERIOD!!!!! YOUR HATE WILL NOT WIN. OUR LOVE WILL!!!!!!!

[Rachel]

What i find amazing is certain peoples reference to "CALIFORNIA VOTERS HAVE SPOKEN" Being used in references to the passing of prop 8, since when did a SLIGHT majority represent all of California state voters?

Its sad that there are people, who CLAIM to be religious, and believe all men were created in the image of the LORD, yet think they can sit like the LORD and decide other peoples lives.

Why do people get to vote over something they have no idea about? Something that truly does not affect their own personal life or marriage? You see how smug the supporters of Prop 8 are? Maybe they feel all powerful now because they were able to determine the fate of someone elses lives.

Just remember....we all face our maker one day! Good luck!

God help the children being raised by these bigots, I have 4 GREAT kids being raised with NO HATE!

[Jen]

I am a tax payer and productive member of society. I deserve the same rights as everyone else whether I am gay or straight.

Imagine if the government decided not to pave the road in front of your house because they didn't like who you chose as a spouse. You would be mad.

I don't want your religious marriage and I frankly never agreed with the institution of marriage. If I did I would say you shouldn't get divorced if it is so sacred like you claim.

I do however as a tax paying and law abiding citizen deserve the rights everyone else gets. I should be able to go to a city building, that I pay taxes for and get the same legal documents everyone else can.

Don't worry....i don't want to teach your children about my awful lifestyle. I want them to go through the same confusing pain I had to go through. One where I hurt a lot of guys and friends because I didn't even know what gay was. I really did love missing a good 10 years of my life to low self esteem I didn't understand and hating myself once I did find out what was wrong.

Finally, just because the majority of the people didn't vote a certain way doesn't mean something is right. Last time I checked, there were MANY minorities in this country that are under 50% and they still get rights. Or maybe they don't.... Im gonna call up my Native American and jewish relatives and tell them to hang on to their wedding rings, because they are about to lose their majority rights.

[Jim]

"It is a fact that an elementary school class was taken to a gay marriage without parental notification."

Um, that's NOT a fact.

The elementary school class was told only that their teacher was taking time off. The parents found out why, and coordinated with the school to be allowed to take their children to the wedding. Parents were informed about the parentally planned field trip, and several opted to have their children excluded from the trip, and those children were never told about their teacher's same-sex marriage.

And, if this teacher had been taking time off for a "commitment ceremony" in which she signed her domestic partnership agreement, the same could have happened. Passing Prop 8 in no way "protects" these children.

Please check your facts before citing them.

[John Bisceglia]

Great. Since PROP HATE passed our very expensive gay organizations are planning to sign MORE petitions "demanding marriage rights and equal protection under the law" and plan MORE "marches on Washington, D.C."

Yeah...those approaches have been so effective these past few.....decades.

Doesn't anyone realize how their tax money is the MOST powerful thing they control?

Doesn't anyone feel sick when they pay FULL taxes for UNEQUAL rights, confirming they are society's most worthless?
FACT - Government is RESPONSIBLE to ALL of its citizens, yet we have embraced our role as SUB-Americans so well that we are oblivious to how pathetic it is to beg-plead-donate money for a right we ALREADY deserve....years ago!

When I tell America to "PAY MY TAXES", I also include my fellow LGBTQ Americans who seem to have NO PROBLEM with taxation without equality. Do you really think you deserve rights....if you are willing to pay for them (Prop 8 donations), or willing to be taxed despite being DENIED those rights...rights that are doled out like candy to other Americans?

Too harsh? I apologize - I am no longer able to march or donate or hold signs. All I have are my words and my tax dollars; I AM STILL IN CONTROL of those 2 things. The GAY TAX PROTEST is GROWING each day.....thank you YES ON PROP 8!

[tab wla]

Stop hiding behind children. It is dispicable how the Yes on 8 supporters exploited children in television campaigns and continue to do so in arguments supporting 8. Your children have a right to grow up in a world where everyone one is treated equal regardless of race, religion or sexual orientation. Being gay is not a choice. Some of your children are gay. You should hope that for their sake, they wont have to grow up in a world where they are discriminated against. As for those who argue that this in not a civil rights issue, many men and women have been killed only because of their sexual oreintation. Look up Matthew Sheppard. Get out and rally for our rights this Saturday.

[Denell]

Everyone knows that as soon as gay marriage is legal in California it's just a matter of time before they "legally" need to teach it in schools. Just like Massachusetts where parents weren't even given the option to "opt out". It's all part of their agenda. I don't even live in California and I donated to Prop. 8 because I don't want "gay love" shoved down the throats of my nieces and nephews. Domestic partnerships already have all the same rights as a marriage, so what are they really fighting for? It's to push their agenda on everyone. Oh...by the way, the separation of "Church and State" was created to protect the "Church" from the "State". Not the other way around. Don't believe me...look it up.

[UD]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm sick of the touchy-feely slogans from the "no on 8" folks. If they could give a few sound, logical, well thought-out arguments for their position people might listen willingly (instead of being forced to listen to their inane slogans).

Just because something is practiced in our society does not make it a right. Even if the government regulates it, doesn't automatically make it a right. For example: Driving a car is something we do, and is even regulated by the state, but it is not a right.

Who ever said marriage is a right, or that the government should ensure their ability to do it? You can't marry more that one person, you can't marry an idea, and you can't marry an animal, etc. Is the government taking away peoples rights by placing these restrictions on marriage? Why do they say proposition 8 is taking away their rights? Where was this so-called right defined and guaranteed?

Marriage is more than a right, it is the foundation of the society from which we are able to define and exercise our rights. Marriage has had the same basic definition for thousands of years. If the 'no on 8' folks want to redefine marriage, then the onus is on them to convince us why. The "no on 8" people have utterly failed at making reasonable arguments for their position. Unfortunately they've settled for inane slogans, and will likely continue using brute-force activism to redefine one of society's most precious institutions.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Jon]

If I had lived in California I would have voted for Prop 8. Although I believe God loves all his children, I personally believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin (see Timothy 3:1-3), just as I believe premarital sex and adultery are sins. I believe that marriage is a sacred institution that has unfortunately become trivialized by many who do not honor marital commitments. Despite my religious convictions, I believe that the definition of marriage should only encompass a relationship between a man and a woman for sociological reasons.

The state has already determined that there are justifiable limitations on marriage - Incestual relationships, polygamous relationships, marriage to minor children, for example.

There is a slippery slope if marriage is redefined. Currently, marriage is not allowed between immediate family members. Why? Because children of family members have a much greater risk of having developmental issues. If gays are allowed to marry, why can't that right extend to same-sex family members, or family members who are determined to be infertile? Why should two consenting family members be denied the right to marry simply because a child that may never even be born might have developmental issues? Advocates for gay rights are hypocritical if they won't fight for these rights as well. I have seen the argument that abuse is prominent in polygamous and incestual relationships, giving the state a reason to ban these relationships. However, it can also be argued that society is harmed with the proliferation of homosexual relationships, as the life expectancy of those individuals is approximately 20 years less than the life expectancy of the general population. Doesn't society have an interest in not promoting this lifestyle?

In addition, homosexuality is not conducive to the sustenance of the human race in the biological sense.

Further, I do not want my rights as a parent invaded. It is a fact that an elementary school class was taken to a gay marriage without parental notification. Because of my religious beliefs, I object to that and if the state denies me that right it is the state that is infringing on my religious beliefs and my parental rights to raise my children in the manner I see fit.

We've already seen in Massachusetts that the Catholic Church shut down its adoption agency because the state was trying to force it send children to gay couples. Separation church and state is supposed to work both ways, but in that case it didn't. Should gays have rights to adopt couples? That's for the states to decide. But the states should not force those rights on a private religious organization that believes otherwise. (And for those of you that believe religious organizations that supported prop 8 should lose their tax-exempt status, then I would submit that the ACLU and other non-profit, tax-exempt organizations that lobbied against prop 8 should likewise lose the same status)

I believe gays should have rights under domestic partnerships and civil unions. I believe marriage should be reserved to one man and one woman.

For those that disagree, I respect that. I'm proud to live in a country where differing opinions can be heard. I hope you treat me with the same respect and I hope those that are protesting understand that violence, vandalism, and hate speech towards others not only doesn't reflect well on the gay community, but it is completely contradictory to their purported message of tolerance (which means peaceful disagreement, not uniformity of thought).

No matter where you stand on this issue. Please advocate your opinions respectfully toward others.

[Jared]

To everyone who is screaming "the people have spoken" I remind you:

We are a democratic republic with a checks and balances system to ensure that minority groups are protected and to prevent any one group from dictating over everyone.

We are not a direct deomcracy.

You tell me to stop whinning. You say I need to do math. You say majority rules.

Perhaps you should pick up a book about government and how ours works.

[Vivien]

BTW ... if we could change being gay, don't you think THAT:

1. The gays in Concentration/Death Camps in Europe during the Holocaust would have changed?

2. Brandon Teena who was beaten to death and buried by people with Yes on 8 mentality would have changed?

3. Lawrence King (a 14 year old boy murdered for being gay in a school) would have changed?

4. I would have changed after being denied jobs, apartments and student housing with my spouse at UCLA in 1998?

This is an immutable characteristic of a person. I could no more sleep with a man than the militantly heterosexual men on this thread could. I, my spouse, and my child should not be punished for something we didn't choose. God knows my life would be easier as a heterosexual.

Your disrespect and discourtesy here on an issue that in no way lessens your marriage, hurts your children or changes your life in any way is sad. Believe as you will -- but your beliefs should not be enshrined in law.

BTW ... for the silly responses of "Where do we draw the line?" Common sense would state that a marriage can consist of two CONSENTING adults with no familial relationship closer than 1st cousins. That wasn't that tough. Definitionally, a man and a dog don't qualify due to the lack of consent and the ability to consent by the dog. Just as incest and polygamy don't jibe with this definition. I'm still not insulting you ... just asking you to not insult me with such elementary thinking.

Peace to all of you.

[Vivien]

f you voted for Prop 8 ... I'm not going to holler or hurl insults. Instead I'm going to ask you to live up to your own credo of protecting families and reconsider your position when you're inevitably asked to vote again. I am a lesbian and I have been with my wife for 17 years -- going on 18. We've just had a little boy with a very, very dear friend of ours who is a known donor. He happens to be a gay man who's been with his partner for 13 years.

We're all stable people. We all work hard. And we plan to have more kids. 3 more if I have my way. My wife and I raise this child as will the other children and are the legal parents. We have adjusted our life (as you other parents have) to accommodate our little guy. We took an income hit from my wife staying home with our boy. I started my own business and took on all the heartburn of doing that so I could work more from home and be with my son. We love this little guy and we'll love his siblings. Our family is our life.

I'm not sure what type of perception you have of a the "gay lifestyle." I'll confess to eating arugula, reading a lot, cooking, walking for exercise and a developing addiction to having a story before I can fall asleep now. But that's about it. I work 65-80 hours a week depending on my work deadlines. My family gets up together in the morning and we all try to get some breakfast ... well my son wears a lot of breakfast. We work. We play with our son. We clean. We occasionally make it to a bookstore or the movie store. We put our son to bed. Try to have a little snuggle. And that's it. Wow. We're libertines aren't we? Honestly, I don't have the energy to be bad.

When I married my partner in the summer. It was the most amazing experience of my life. My son was there. We re-exchanged our rings. And better yet, we felt like equal citizens finally. Finally, an end to the worry whether or not the hospital would respect our contracts for mutual care, an end to the worry that someone would try to contest custody of our son if something happened to the other person. An end to a lot of worries, extra expenses and the gay tax. What's the gay tax? It's the tax on all gay people who have to crowd into some of the most expensive areas in the country in order to be in areas where we are safe. We thought we could move to another part of the city or state finally given the statewide effect of our marriage ... because we felt safe the law finally provided our relationship with protections that EVERYONE understands. Debating the extent of domestic partnership with your local ER nurse isn't that damn fun when your spouse has been in a car accident. Some areas are cool. Others you need your attorney.

And now this feeling of security is gone. Taken by people I haven't done a thing to and who didn't know I was married this summer. That's how little effect I had on all of you. You didn't even know it happened. My wife cried on Tuesday night. My son now gets to know his mothers are second-class citizens. How do you think this will make him feel? How do you think all the hate that's been stirred up against the gay/lesbian community and plastered on signs, billboards, radio shows, this list -- will make HIM feel? He's blameless.

We're good parents and we will take it on the chin for our son. And fold away our disappointment and anger and grief that our right to equal protection under the law was stolen from us. But someday he will read all of this in a history class or ask us about this time and we encourage everyone to be honest about this time. And remember who will be judging you ... not me. Not any of my gay brothers or lesbian sisters. It will be him. It will be countless other children like him. And they will not remember fondly or proudly a generation that was so cruel to their mothers and fathers.

[Headstrong]

Anyone wanna help me get a constitutional amendment preventing complete morons from voting and breeding? That would eliminate about half the posts on this site from the H8ters who can't seem to fathom simple facts of life about human sexuality, equal protection under the law, and the role of the judiciary in the checks and balances of our government. How frightening to learn that I share sidewalks, buses, shopping lines and air with such miserable mindless monsters! Where's Buffy the Idiot Slayer when we really need her!

[Dan]

How can a citizen of this country be more concerned with traffic than people's civil rights? Wow. Some people have really sunk very low. When one minority loses a right, we all lose. And we're all at risk.

[Erin]

I am surprised the Police have put up with so many unpermitted demonstrations normally marches like this require permits, there failure to follow law enforcements directions is getting very old and will eventually lead to altercations with law enforcement. Please respect the laws of this country and seek to demonstrate in a fashion which provides the most safety for everyone involved. Ignoring the routes some leaders work out with police causes disruptions that are unneeded and put people at risk from traffic and causes unneeded delays. Work smarter, random harassment is getting nowhere and causing more of a backlash then you can imagine. Even among the strongest supporters in government.

[I don't get it..]

This is crazy...
The state voted and spoke, you lost. There is no reason to protest this.
Should I protest Obama because I did not get my way.
You should have spent more time prior to the vote on this issue.
I would suggest you respect the democratic system and try again next time.
PS, please don't compare your situation with the blacks in the 60s. Your issue is a matter of symantics.
I don't care if your gay.. I just think the term marrage means a Man and woman. You should have all the rights straight people have.
Two dudes can't be married.. they are partners.

[Ashley]

People are saying that you can't compare race to a sexuality. Well, gays are a minority, just as blacks and mexicans are. Domestic Partnerships do NOT offer the same privileges that marriage does. If you want so badly to save marriage, then ban divorce, arrest dead-beat dads, outlaw single parents from raising children, FORCE people to stay married and work their crap out. What's the divorce rate in this country anyway?

The divorce rate in America for first marriage is 41%
The divorce rate in America for second marriage is 60%
The divorce rate in America for third marriage is 73%

Hetero marriage is so screwed. We have ruined what is supposed to be a beautiful thing. A celebration of two lives joined together. I think and know that gay marriage can actually SAVE marriage. I know so many gay couples who have been together years, and the married couples I know are all heading towards divorce. I just think Prop 8 supporters are afraid that gays can do it better. And will do it better when this mess is cleared up. Everyone should have the same right to marry the ones they love. And for people to bring up marrying dogs and marrying brothers and sisters is just plain stupid. Put your own beliefs aside and think about what's right for the millions of people whose lives youve helped ruin by voting yes on Prop 8, ESPECIALLY if you're a minority, or in an interracial marriage. Gays bring a lot to this society, probably without you even realizing it. Give them what they want. So many minorities have fought for what they know they deserve, how is this any different? This is AMERICA afterall.

[Andrew]

A number of commenters here have complained about the traffic jams stemming from the protests, while also invoking hateful and intolerant language about gay marriage being a "moral" issue rather than a civil rights issue. News flash: the protests are NOT going to let up until we have our rights.

Others have said that "the people have voted," as if the people voting should be the be all end all. There's a reason why American governance is comprised of checks and balances. And more saliently, the United States is a democratic republic, not a pure democracy. Electoral college, representatives, etc. so on and so forth.

I'll echo what others have said before: never let a majority vote on the rights of minorities. Those who fail to see that this is a civil rights issue ultimately operate from a position of privileged and unquestioned devout heteronormativity. That said, it's quite easy to see that the tide is turning, and that we can stand alongside our allies in solidarity. This is all just a matter of time.

Expect more protests. You can be sure I'll be there.

[bradley]

To Daniel Jackson, apart from offering my condolences for your appalling ignorance, I have two words for you. MATTHEW SHEPARD.
Now do your research, get a little love in your miserable heart, and read your bible instead of just waving it in the air and hiding behind it. This IS a civil rights issue. Marriage licenses are issued by the state, and last time I checked the Constitution, we still had SEPARATION of church and state. The minority is to be protected from the tyranny of the majority. This is a clear case of that tyranny, and the courts will throw out a measure of dubious legality, and clearly discriminatory. If a heterosexual marriage is threatened by the love and commitment of anybody else's union, then I think it's pretty safe to say that it's a fragile marriage indeed. This measure is just bigotry tarted up. Californians should be ashamed that this passed.

[Shel Theodore]

Two of the supporters, quoted in the Prop 8 article of November 11, who voted in favor of Proposition 8 were reported to have said that they felt that only heterosexual marriage could be accepted, since it was "the natural order of things". These two geezers need to be reminded that it was the natural order of things to forbid blacks and whites from marrying in more than 22 states at the time of Barack Obama's birth. It was " the natural order of things" for people to own other people in the United States, prior to 1863. It was the natural order of things to forbid Jews from entering certain hotels, restaurants, and country clubs as recently as the mid 1950s. I guess a variant of the "natural order of things" was to reelect a totally incompetent moron to the presidency in 2004, because to do otherwise would be like "changing horses in mid-stream". It's that kind of thinking that needs to be challenged, and rethought. One of the most successful marriages that I am aware of happens to be of a gay couple who married in 1971. I seriously doubt that the marriages of the two geezers who were quoted in today's article have had as successful a marriage.

[Elizabeth Patterson]

"I'm so tired of the gay comparing this to the struggle of the African Americans during the 60's. THIS IS NOT THE SAME! How many gays have been lynched or supporters killed like those down in Mississippi?"

In fact I have been shot at and chased down by someone who did not like seeing me holding hands with my partner. At the time, the cops had no interest in pursuing the assailant. Sound familiar? I have heard a litany of epithets hurled my way over the years. Many of us have had violence inflicted against us. Whether you think this is a moral issue, a decision, a "lifestyle" (my personal favorite) or hardwired reality, discrimination feels just as bad to me as it does to you.

[chris]

arguments against gay marriage:

1. the people have voted! - if majority vote were reason enough, blacks and women would still be treated as unequal citizens
2. we don't want our beliefs compromised - prop. 8 inflicts the belief that gay marriage is wrong on other who believe it is right -
3. homosexuality is a sin and prohibited in the bible - adulterers should be stoned and children severely punished as proscribed in the bible as well - selecting and choosing which written rules in the bible to adhere to is hypocritical - additionally, Jesus Christ was for love above all else - gay marriage is a commitment based on love - thus, Christ would've been in favor of such a commitment -

since there are no valid argument against the legalization of gay marriage? why are people still against it?

[tornwordo]

Wow, I'm just astonished to see such vitriol here. This is America people! All men are created EQUAL. Life Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. The reason we are out in the streets is because we've had enough of being "lesser than". As a born and raised Californian, I had to leave the country simply because I happened to fall in love with a foreigner. To say that I have the same rights as anyone else is demonstrably false in my case. In order to stay together, I had to move to Canada. Let me tell you something, Canada is MUCH COLDER than Socal. I never would've believed it! Anyway, we're married up here, no one bats an eye and society hasn't crumbled. And can we finally put the choice question to rest? It's no more a choice than being left/right handed or having whatever color eyes you have.

[Steve]

No civil rights should be put the vote of "the people." If the rights of Blacks, Jews, Mormons and other religious groups had been put on the ballot during the last 100 years, we would still have segregation or worse and we would all be at each other's throats. It is the courts and the legislatures that have protected and given equal rights to the different minority groups and have kept America largely free of discrimination, not the will of the people voting on whether to give or not give give certain groups equal rights.

[Jeff]

This IS a civil rights issue as homosexuality is NOT a choice and is NOT a preference. The LGBT community is like any other minority group in this country, a country that was founded upon protecting the minority. They are continually witheld rights just as rights were witheld from African Americans, Latinos, Asians, immigrants, and the list goes on.

The fact of the matter is that same-sex marriages will have no impact on "traditional marriages." Churches will not be forced to perform ceremonies, and why would a gay couple choose to get married in a church that preaches against them in the first place? Same-sex marriage will not be taught in schools as marriage is not on the cirruculum to begin with. But at some point, those that are against marriage equality will have to wake up and realize that injustice doesn't just quitely go away. There are gay people in this world, citizens of this country that abide by every law (moral and otherwise) that everyone else does, and we ALL deserve equal treatment under the law.

Get the church out of our damned government and recognize that marriage is a human right, not a heterosexual privilage.

[GetThisStraight]

Get this cite straight you SODOMITES; God HATES YOUR DEPRAVED BEHAVIOR. MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT FACT! PERIOD. END OF STORY. END OF ARGUMENT!
Your selective reading of Scripture cannot change one iota of this FACT!

[JIm]

In response to "Chris" (posted November 11, 2008 at 08:02 AM):

Yes, this fight is about legal rights. Separate but equal is not equal.

There are several ways in which a domestic partnership is not the same as a marriage, even right here at the state level where it was theoretically guaranteed to be equal. The best example I can give of that is that my husband and I work in two different cities, and therefore do not meet the government's criteria to be allowed to become domestic partners because domestic partners are required to cohabitate before they may register, whereas there's no legal requirement for a couple to live together before or after they legally marry.

If California were to respond to the Passage of Proposition 8 by declaring ALL marriages in California null and void and order all heterosexual couples to instead register as domestic partners, I (and most of the gay and lesbian community) would welcome the return to separation of church and state and stop protesting. However, I suspect those who voted to "protect marriage" would be out in the streets causing traffic snarls.

The problem is that domestic partnership and marriage are different institutions, and we've learned (the hard way) in this country that segregation cannot create equality. Make the rules the same for everyone, and everyone who believes in separation of church and state will be happy.

[stacy]

First of all I would like to say that being G/L/B is not a religion and I understand that many people are upset about the result of the election. But I really think that all these protest are highly unnecessary. Instead of protesting in front of all the churches and defacing private property, I believe protesters should start to get another measure together and have that one added to the next ballot for election.

Defacing private/public property should not be involved and I understand the anger that this has caused everyone that was NO on 8, but please understand that there are better ways to get our voice heard than to be protesting everyday and all hours of the day.

[chris]

prop. 8 is unconstitutional (California and Federal), and against the teachings of Jesus Christ (love, compassion, inclusion) - these protests are evidence that many understand exactly what the Constitution and Christ would protect and fight for -

[C. Greene]

I'm not gay, but the argument that people should vote on whether a group is afforded their rights under the Constitution is absolutely retarded. If the majority ruled on issues like this, women would still be barefoot and pregnant and blacks would still be opening doors for whites. This is about civil rights, and if Prop 8 supporters can't see that, then they are bigots. Sorry, but I can't subscribe to the idea that being gay is a "lifestyle". I don't think someone wakes up and decides, "Hey! I would love to be part of the only minority group left in America that society still allows to be ridiculed, discriminated against and even violently attacked.

[Melaine S]

Since when should a minority group get their rights taken away by popular vote? Shameful!!!

[David]

Tired of seeing THEM protest. WE the people of California have already voted twice. The measure has PASSED!

[mcm]

As a Catholic Christian, I do have duty and the freedom in this country to try to protect moral policies from getting too liberal, to hope that abortion will one day be illegal again, to try to maintain moral values. However, the beauty of being in this country is that I have to do that with a vote, my church is not allowed to simply tyrannize it's moral philosophy on others-hence I live in a country that does in fact allow abortion. It's my right and my duty to vote on this issue how my own conscience dictates. But I don't have to win. As a matter of fact, this time around, my vote did win. The beauty of this country is that, even though it did, that may not in fact be the last word-but I was ALLOWED and FREE to vote my conscience. That is the beauty of a free country. I understand that people equate this with a civil rights issue, I don't agree with that, because I do believe it's a choice to marry, not a right to marry. That is quite different than being of another race. There is absolutely no choice involved. That is why my church argues that it falls under moral doctrine-because it involves choice-not the choice to be gay, but the choice to marry someone of the same sex. There is so much hate in this blog on both sides of this issue. It's sad. Please allow me the same rights to live out my beliefs as you would like me to give you.

[Sam]

Well that was my experience in San Francisco. Gay activism is selfish. If you are not overtly sexual they take it as an insult and harass you. Everybody has to be on the same page. It's just three percent of the population. Why do 97% have to ruin their heterosexual childrens play and school by making them wonder if they are being romantic with each other to have a slumber party or tackle in pop warner football? The mistake was letting it get off the psych schedule. But that mistake needs to be corrected.

[P J Evans]

"We did not protest when 4 judges violated our rights by allowing gay marriages"

Oh, for the love of G-d!
Your rights have *never* been violated - you have been violating the rights of others, every time you get the opportunity.
You can still marry whomever you want, and get all those rights you're busy trying to deny others.
Your church can still refuse to marry people who are not members and don't agree with its rules, yet you complain that you won't be allowed to marry only those of whom you approve.
You want everyone else to live by your rules, while you complain, loudly, that you aren't allowed to follow them, even as you're allowed to push your propaganda and your agenda at everyone else.
I refer you to the first amendment of the Constitution, which says that there won't be laws establishing any religion as 'official'.
I refer you to the commandments of Jesus, which require that you treat others as well as you want to be treated by them. (Since you don't seem to know them: read Matthew, Mark, and Luke.)

[toby]

RE Keith:

Umm, I know for a fact that the Jewish Community voted almost 80% against Prop. 8 (and only 8% supported it).

You see, the Jews sat with the Gays in the concentration camps in Germany. Both watching their friends and loved ones be murdered because of bigotry much like the ones you share.

So in the future, DON'T EVER use the Jewish community as some pawn in taking away others civil rights.

We don't stand for it, we will NEVER stand for it.

And my question is....How can you?

[toby]

LOL, if civil rights were ALWAYS done by a poll...

Blacks would still be picking cotton, women would be legal property and let me point something out.....

Monroe was the only founding father with a vowel at the end of his name and I don't see any McWashingtons.

MEANING if we keep civil rights to a vote, the Irish and the Italians would still be the scurge of the Urban life...

And don't get me started about the Chinese who help built our railroads, believe me, we didn't vote for civil rights for them either....

So in short, the "will of the People" has been soooo Bigoted, Sooooo racist-sexist-homophobic, that even White Europeans wouldn't have the right to vote if it was left up to the "will of the People".

Do you get that? If it was ALWAYS up to the people of America, Not even White Europeans (Irish and the Italians) would have the right to vote.

So yeah, Civil Rights should ALWAYS be through the courts and NEVER through popular vote.

Only bigoted idiots think a vote is the right path.

[Get real!]

The voters have spoken so move on with your life. I'm not against the gay people but I am strongly for the sanctity of family values. If only gays married, there would be no population growth. In case you need to be reminded, it takes a man and a woman to create babies. As Harvey Milk say's in the movie MILK, "no we can't make babies, but we keep on trying!" This statement proves that the gay people are totally overlooking the major issue in Prop 8. This is NOT civil issue but a moral issue. You are not a race or nationality but a way of life.

[carl]

This is AMERICA! Equality will win!!

We might have to wait another 15-20 years until those in the baby-boomer generation begin to die off, and their bigoted attitudes with them. Just as deeply ingrained racial attitudes only began to decrease with the death of the old people who held them.

[Gary]

If you voted for this proposition and consider yourself a Christian, I would suggest you look closely at this action. Occasionally we all trip and wander from our Saviour's teachings: the Golden Rule, Love Thy Neighbor, Let ye who is without sin cast the first stone. But I, also a Christian, am saddened by the deliberate whoesale trampling of the Master's teachings in this mean-spirited attempt to make oneself feel more holy at the expense of others. This is not what I read in the Bible. We'd better take another look.

Attacking other children of God unlike ourselves out of fear is never a good thing. These approx. 10% of us (I am not homosexual) are not going away. As usual with this kind of fearful attack, it has the opposite effect. If you wanted to hide your children from this reality of life, it is now in the news all over the place and will be for a long time.

I would suggest to all "sides" of this issue that kindness and understanding and yes, Love, go a lot farther.

[Keith]

Latinos
Asians
Hawaiians
Indians
Puerto Ricans
Spanish
Guatamalan
Europeans
English
White
Black
African
African American
Dominican
Catholic
Baptist
Christian
Mormon
Quaker
Muslim
Jewish
Atheist
Gay
Straight
Bi
Transgender
Minister
Priest
Bishop
Doctor
Lawyer
Teacher
Dancer
Bus Driver
and Joe the Plumber
Together we all voted YES on Prop 8. Don't single out one group. Thank you

[Heath Reay]

I don't feel sorry for any church or mormons who are whining now. Its like the wolf getting caught trying to eat little Red and saying,.....poor me. Im for prop 11, ban the mormon church.

[Freedom Monger]

Proposition 8 is a hate crime.

Queen says:
"To all the haters - don't mess with royalty."

We are taking our Gay and Lesbian Equality under the law.
With your opposition to our equality and freedom:
You have only empowered us.
You have made us aware of how deeply violent you are with politics.

Don't mess with royalty - don't mess with queens.

"For God's sake - let us be, just leave us alone!"
"Nobody owns marriage."
Stop picking on us, stop bashing us in the political scene and then "ask for civility".
Your political violence is not civil in any way.

We are taking our Gay and Lesbian Equality under the law.
This *will* help to heal our planet: truly stopping all of this straight violence.

"To all the haters - don't mess with royalty."
Proposition 8 is a hate crime.

[Keith]

Its quite interesting how the media tried to make African Americans out to be the "bad guys" and the reason Prop 8 passed. However, when you look at the demographics by each city you can see for yourself that it was HIspanics, Asians, White, Latinos, Samoans, Indians, and Blacks who voted YES on Prop 8. Black people only make up 2 million people in the state and less than 1/2 are voters. So don't blame Black people! By the way, I lived for 15 years as a homosexual male and since Jesus came into my life nearly 5 years ago I have been changed. Even when I was living a gay lifestyle I never believed that Gay Marriage was ordained by God. Either you believe the Bible completely or you don't! I do! And God ordained marriage between Man and Woman to procreate and multiply. There is no procreation in an homosexual relationship. I love all people and I believe you should have domestic/civil rights, however, the state should not change the constitution for same sex marriage. God Bless You All.

[Godfrey]

Like it or not this is the same argument that some churches and a lot of "citizens" used against mixed-race marriages. If opponents of Proposition 8 take the time review a few historical texts instead of feeding the rest of us nonsense this issue would be solved, pronto!

As a straight man-with two kids; I believe that gay and lesbians have a fundamental right to marry as any other citizen of our great State of California. Anybody that does not believe this is not a civil rights issue is simply a DUNCE!

[larry in la]

Sorry whiners. Gays and anyone who believes in justice will not just shut up. It's amazing to me that people who supported a hate bill have the nerve to get indignant when people stand up for their rights.

[MikeyB]

This is clearly a civil and not a moral issue. When one segment of the population cannot enjoy the same rights as the majority, which is to marry another consenting adult who they love, then it is a civil rights issue.

Also, when people argue that when a majority of people vote on something then we all neded to accept it, I ask them how did the African Americans get their civil rights? Not by a vote of the people, but by the courts.

That is how civil rights are gained in this country, through the courts and not by the people. Do you think that if the South was given the opportunity to vote on Jim Crow Laws they would have stricken them down? Of course not. Thank goodness that the courts intervened and went against the will of the people.

[Jeff]

To Joe Santini's comments:

We cannot, we must not, divide. While I understand your anger and frustration, striking back at certain groups, be it black, Latin, etc., will not further the cause and will not further America.

United, not divided.

We just saw it work beautifully in our presidential election. That is the model.

[miche]

As a recent transplant to California I was expecting to be warmly engulfed in progressive attitudes as that is what this great state is known for. I can't believe it passed - my heart goes out to all the couples who are already married and those who would like to be.

I live and work on the West side and happily sat in traffic last Thursday for a while and then parked the car and walked home. I don't mind because I believe a big stink should be made - people projecting their religious beliefs on others is atrocious.

Regarding the kids: I don't understand how making gay marriage illegal harms them in any way. It's not like this kids will never meet a gay or lesbian person - when I have children they will not grow up in a weird bubble and will not be scared by love.

This issue is about love: and in the words of Keith Olbermann last night:
"You want to sanctify marriage? You want to honor your God and the universal love you believe he represents? Then Spread happiness—this tiny, symbolic, semantical grain of happiness—share it with all those who seek it."

[sgecht]

So, why only protest in front of the Mormon & Catholic churches? How about protesting in front of a Muslim temple? Their culture is very repulsive to gays and lesbians...

[Chris]

I voted "No" on Prop 8. My spouse voted "No" also.

I am a Catholic. I am a 42-year old man married to a 40-year old woman. We have two young children (age 6 and age 2) conceived between us. I reflected on Church theology and the guidelines of "Faithful Citizenship" before voting. I concluded that "No on 8" was the most appropriate moral decision. My marriage is not negatively impacted by the partnership of anybody else. My spouse agreed.

Having written that, I need some help from the "No on 8" folks. I am still confused as to whether the issue is access to the word "marriage" or to any currently unavailable rights therein. I know a lot of Catholics who voted "Yes" on 8 because they believe domestically partnered homosexuals already receive every legal right in California that married heterosexuals receive. The "No on 8" campaign focused on "equality" and "equity" and "rights," but there were absolutely no assertions about what specific rights are not currently available. Some otherwise liberal friends of mine completely and totally believe Prop 8 was only about the *word* "marriage," and that all tax rights, hospital visitation rights, adoption rights, inheritance rights, insurance rights, etc., are conveyed through California's existing domestic partnership laws.

Let's face it... if two men or two women want to get "domestically partnered" and show up at City Hall in wedding clothes with photographer in tow, they are legally allowed to do so. They can host a solemnization ceremony. They can host a celebration party. The "domestic partnership" document falls under the same requirements for dissolution as a "marriage" document. One must go to court and sue one's partner to dissolve the civil union.

So, as a "No on 8" voter, please give me some help here regarding the details of what specifically is gained or lost by this "law." The newspapers haven't covered the details - focusing instead on the emotion.

I see an alternate legal option in California would be to change all "marriage licenses" to "civil union" licenses. Let the churches use the word "marriage." Let the government use only the words "civil union." Then, if the rights are exactly the same and the wording is exactly the same, would equity have prevailed.

Sincerely,
A "No on 8" voter trying to understand the real issues

P.S.-- Let's stay away from the slippery slope arguments about sex with animals, books that discuss same-sex partnerships, etc. Some men kiss other consenting men. Some women kiss other consenting women. Anything that's not "consenting" really should be kept in a different category, Let's have a factual discussion, please.

[Armando Ramirez]

You may not believe that homosexually is a protected class, but the State of California does, just like ethnicity, nationality, gender and yes religion. It is exactly because the marriage laws violated this part of the state constitution that the Supreme Court did what it did.

I seriously doubt that had the yes on 8 campaign lost that they would have let it go and gotten over it.

The Catholic church does not recognize civil marriage, why does it want a voice in a process that it does not recognize is valid for even heterosexual couples?

Some people are acting as if the Supreme Court made gay marriage mandatory.

[YES IN AZ]

After reading some but not all, all I can say is that I'll pray for all of you.

Most of the disagreements will faith-based organizations seem to revolve around Catholicism & Mormonism. I suggest that you find a reformed protestant church to help you in your quest.

Please understand the Christian approach to life & family did not evolve overnight, but instead over time. I personally feel it is superior, which is why I voted Yes in Arizona. It has served family and culture very well during a very long and trying time frame. I too believe it will weather this fight - maybe not in California, but most everywhere else.

[Shawn]

For the record, there are over 700 laws that protect those "married" vs. domestic partnerships. Your marriage doesn't change if we have the right to marry as well...But is is a different story if we don't have the same right.

Stop making this about your rights and remember it is about everyone's right to marry the person they love.

Unite for all - attend a local rally in your area on Sat. -

[jack]

It's a civil rights issue because gay marriage is civil marriage. It ain't religious marriage. Repeat, gay marriage is a civil marriage, not a religious one.

[jason]

I'm not blaming blacks for the passage of Prop 8. I'm simply blaming those blacks who are heavily influenced by Christian fundamentalism. There's a lot of those about.

[jack]

This is encouraging -- in the street and in the legislature. Is California a state where latter-day White Citizens Councils take away the rights of my gay neighbors? Not in my California!!

[Luke]

thanks everyone for sticking up for yes on 8, just do it nicley on both sides, neither side should be demonised

[Harold]

This prop 8 is a no brainer. that why they pass in every state. No alternative lifestyles-it destroys the children

[Echo1]

Interesting to see all the hate on here from allegedly religious people. Didn't you read Jesus' commandment to "love one another"? If you don't, does that mean you go to hell?

[shanliz2001]

Hey, I have an idea..... I find DIVORCE to be offensive and IMMORAL...

Let's put a ballot initiative out to the voters that BANS divorce. All those "gloriously" protected married straight people should be forced to spend their ENTIRE lives together, whether they still love each other or not.

I'm sure all these Jesus people would agree to vote "Yes" on that. Afterall, its in the BIBLE!!!

And besides a democratically imposed, mandate that the unhappily married remain together would be a fitting pay-back!!!

[Shannliz]

Good ol' democracy in action...

The same system in which slavery was once legal.

The same system that once forbade African-Americans to marry.

The same system that once denied women and African Americans the right to vote.

The same system that once enforced segregation.

And that's just the United States.

Let's not forget that in 1930's Germany, Adolf Hitler was DEMOCRATICALLY elected...

The majority of Germans in the 1930's believed it was o.k. to "round up the Jews" (even if citizens didn't know the full ramifications of that...i.e. the horrible deaths of 6 million innocent people.

And while I'm not here to critcize "democracy" (sometimes it actually DOES work!!!)...the fact remains that sometimes the "MAJORITY" is wrong!!!

The right of same sex couples to wed IS a righteous civil rights issue, and ALL supporters of civil rights should understand that whether or not they personally have an interest in it, they should support those whom it does impact.

An injury to one is an injury to ALL!

[uphere]

Ignorance, especially willfull ignorance, instigates the death of a nation.

Has anyone else noticed the horrible spelling and grammatical errors of those who post here both pro and con marriage?

Marriage is an istitution granted unto two people who are committed to living life together, with or without children (those who argue otherwise should think about people who are unable to have children at all, elderly folks, and those who marry who chose not to bear young), and are comitted to showing this fact to the world.

You would deny this commitment based on gender? Idiocy.

[Freedom Monger]

Call us "non-traditional" - and say that marriage is "only between a man and a woman" -
"protecting marriage" by saying - that marriage can only be the exclusive "straight club" that gays and lesbians cannot be allowed into.

Prejudice & self-deception -
USING God to endorse *your* prejudice.

We are called:

Not traditional;
Dirty;
sinful;
undeserving;
not part of the club:
To deny us equal rights under the law.

This type of voter violence and bigotry is hurting many people as I type.
Children are being hurt by this too:
1) learning to hate those who are different (non-traditional) 2) Watching their "non-traditional" parents suffer
3) Become targets of gay bashers in High School and elsewhere (Remember Lawrence King and Matthew Shephard?) --

This type of religious voter violence against equal rights for Gays and Lesbians creates an environment that leads to more physical violence against Lesbians and Gays and it harms children too. It "makes it OK" to see Gays and Lesbians as "less than human".

Imagine for a few seconds what it would be like if:

By Law ---

Only two people of the same-sex can be married and *that* is REAL tradition -
(and if you are of different sexes wanting to be married
- you cannot be married -
yet, we'll "allow you a civil partnership" to have children).

It's not acceptable.

Would straight people want Gay and Lesbian voters deciding whether they are "allowed" to have equal protections under the law - including the right to be married?

It's not acceptable: a majority of prejudiced people voting against a minority they are prejudiced against.

Reclaiming our Lesbian and Gay equality under the law is happening now.
Gays and Lesbians will prevail - because we are equal, we are powerful, creative and yes - we are different.

Freedom Monger

[Southern Beale]

Some people say they were slowed down but support the cause. Others curse the No-on-8 demonstrators for worsening L.A.'s already awful traffic.

How uniquely American. "Screw civil rights! I need to get out of this traffic jam!" How's that tyranny of the majority working out for you?

[Marc]

"marriage is for opposite sexes.(ability to reproduce-otherwise no one will be left
) Every child deserves a mother and father. It is all about the kids and our future generation. this is a no brainer."

Well Bob, I guess we should not let those who are not going to have children get married. Right?

[uphere]

Ignorance, especially willfull ignorance, instigates the death of a nation.

Has anyone else noticed the horrible spelling and grammatical errors of those who post here both pro and con marriage?

Marriage is an istitution granted unto two people who are committed to living life together, with or without children (those who argue otherwise should think about people who are unable to have children at all, elderly folks, and those who marry who chose not to bear young), and are comitted to showing this fact to the world.

You would deny this commitment based on gender? Idiocy.

[Jeffery P. Segall RN]

In no way is it about anyone protecting the sanctity of marriage. Not in a nation with an approximate fifty-five percent divorce rate. It is about attacking a group of people that it is still just fine to pick on--in the name of the Lord, of course. If it were about the sanctity of marriage then why are those on death row allowed to marry? Yes, it's true, mass-murders can and do get married. Murder, one of the Ten Commandments, is not enough to stop somebody from legally marrying, but then neither is adultery. Richard Ramirez, The Nightstalker, married a woman while sitting on death row as the result of being convicted of thirteen murders and scores of other heinous crimes. One of the Menendez Brothers got married after being convicted of murdering his parents and while serving a life sentence. How does this protect marriage?

In no way is it about anyone protecting the sanctity of marriage. If it were how could one explain common-law marriage? This is where heterosexuals who LIVE IN SIN (for usually seven years, though that number may vary) are awarded MARRIAGE for doing just exactly that, LIVING IN SIN! Common-law marriage cannot be created in the State of California, but the state gives complete recognition to those common-law marriages created in other states.

The argument that it's all about the children is also absurd. Then why would we let the elderly or the infertile marry? Why not make anyone wanting to marry sign a certification of intent to bear offspring and force them to provide proof that they are physically capable of doing so? If these religious zealots are so worried about children, then why are they creating a second-class of children, those of gay relationships?

"DISCRIMINATION ANYWHERE IS DICRIMINATION EVERYWHERE"

KNOW 8. KNOW HATE.
NO 8. NO HATE.

[TD]

What's so astonishing about prop 8 is that the proponents, who steadfastly declare their moral superiority, lied through their teeth over the airwaves to get it passed.

This humbug was pushed by the mormon church, among others, with the intent of improving their standing among other 'christian' sects. The upshot being: 'hey, take us seriously, we're haters, too!' What a sad commentary on their agenda.

[tlsmith1963]

I am a straight person who voted no on 8. I wish the churches would stay out of politics. It's bad enough when the fundamentalist Christians get involved in politics. Why do other religions have to do this? Especially the Mormons, who have experienced persecution & should know better.

[That's it]

This is just Week One of our great struggle for equality. We WILL take our rights back and we WILL NOT apologize for it.

Proposition 8 has united us in solidarity, and I don't care how many intersections we have to shut down or how much rush hour traffic we have to bring to a standstill to get back what is RIGHTFULLY OURS.

FEDERAL MARRIAGE PROTECTION NOW!!

[Jeffrey]

The only democracy that is allowed is when liberals win. If anyone outside of liberal thought wins, it must be challenged, degraded, set aside, defrauded, or crushed under their jackbooted judges.

It's not fascism when Liberals do these things.

[Jon Wright]

To Dingtank who writes:"

"You're right! I don't care about homosexual's feelings.

Children's rights trump gay rights."

Please explain to me why the wonderful 1 year old boy living next door should be persecuted when he gets to school because his two mommies can't get married (or because the marriage they already have is repealed by people like you?) Gay people do now and will continue in the future to have children too. Prop 8 does nothing about that and there are numerous other laws on the books regarding adoption, etc. So that means you are also discriminating against the children of gay parents--or is that your next target too? Don't use children to disguise your bigotry.

[Anne]

Homosexuality is not a choice. If you think it is, heterosexual men and women of America, please go try to make the "choice" to become a homosexual. Doesn't sound appealing? Do you really believe that you are heterosexual only because you believe you should be? For homosexuals, marrying a person of the opposite sex also isn't appealing - and there are biological reasons for that.

I keep hearing that marriage has been defined as "between a man and a woman" since the beginning of time. Well, polygamy and women-defined-as-property have also been parts of "marriage" since the beginning of time? Frankly love has not been part of marriage "since the beginning of time" and is a fairly recent development in human history. It's a weak argument.

And the wishes of the founding fathers? Most were Deists, who believed that God gave humans reason and set of inherent laws (i.e. All men are created equal) and then after God created those things, he stayed out of it. Many did not believe in literal interpretation of the bible. The founding fathers were the colonial intelligentsia and were criticized for this belief. Watch who you align yourself with.

I am a woman married to a man. My marriage has nothing to do with God - there was not one mention of anything religious at my wedding ceremony. So why am I "allowed" to be married and my gay friends are not? Why can my heterosexual friend marry a woman from Germany and go through a process for her to get a green card and live with her husband when my gay friend who fell in love with an Australian man and has been with him for four years doesn't get the same courtesy. Gays do not have equal rights in this country. It is the last legal form of discrimination and it must end.

[Joe Santini]

We must protest to the end. I would encourage the GAY COMMUNITY to not endorse anything for the LATINO's cause for voting against us due to homophobia and bigotry. Vote against BLACK causes as well. If they think they can take our rights away because of ignorance, we must strike back.

We must also protest in font of every catholic cathedral - every sunday. Against
bishops and carndinals for ordering all chrurches to speak against gays - LIKE WE ARE INHUMANS. What a bunch of hipocrites. It is of for priest do be pedolfiles, but not right for gays to be married.

LETS STRIKE BACK AS GAYS THROUGHOUT CALIFORNIA, AGAINST THE ONE WHO DID US WRONG.

[Jon Wright]

In response to Mark who writes:
"I don't recall seeing gays getting hosed down and have attack dogs set on them. Gays are not asked to move to the back of the bus or lynched and hung on trees."
are you serious? Gays and Lesbians have been murdered and tortured (like Mathew Sheppard and that middle school kid in Ventura) and told that they cannot even share a New Years Eve kiss (The Black Cat incident in LA in the 1960's) as well as being fired/ never hired if they come out of the closet. It is astonishing that people seem to overlook the growth of hate crimes which I am afraid the passage of Prop 8 will just encourage.

[Mike in Charlotte]

...and they said that we'd never have a black President.

Still, I'd like to repeal the use of the term "marriage" as it relates to all legally recognized "unions". If your church wants to "marry" you have at it but don't expect any legal protections from the government.

In the end, supporters of Prop 8 will burn in the same hell as members of the SS and the KKK.

[Joe]

Massachusetts, Same Sex Marriage since 2004! The sky has not fallen...

[ucla-er]

Everyone keeps saying "traditional" marriage is between a man and woman. Well when in hell did everyone become so darn traditional? Were you all virgins when you got married? Some yes, many no. Not so traditional. Are your children refraining from sexual activity until they are married? Possible, but unlikely. Many of you have not been faithful to your spouses, or have forgiven your spouse's infidelity. Again, not so traditional. ALL of us are straying away from certain traditional practices and keeping others. Gays and lesbians want to get married and you pull out the traditional card? Why don't you apply your rules to yourself.

[Heather]

"Civics 101: Majority rules. If 52.5% is not a majority, you obviously failed math. "

Um. Okay.

Except the whole point of the constitution, and the checks and balances system, is to prevent the tyranny of a majority against an unpopular minority.

Civics 101, sir.

[MIke M]

This ain't a civil rights issue. ANYone has the right to get married regardless of their Sexual Orientation!!! Go try it out. No one will ask "what sex are you attracted to?" when you apply for a license.

Of course, people CANNOT marry just anyone, though.

Men cannot marry boys, brothers cannot marrying sisters, fathers cannot marrying daughters, people cannot marry pets, etc etc etc.

If the "No On 8" people insist that this is a discrimination issue then we MUST allow marriage between ANY two people (so long as they are "in love" of course). If we don't, then according to the No On 8 folks we are discriminating.

Give me a break. The discrimination/civil rights argument is ridiculous. Find something else to base your argument on if you want some credibility.

[fair is fair]

you know, you guys are right. we lost and should just suck it up and move on 'cause "the people have spoken."

fine...i hear you. but now that marriage has been restored to its perfect state, please stop whining about the downfall of society because you have no excuse now.

[FundamentallyFlawed]

"We did not protest when 4 judges violated our rights by allowing gay marriages"

No, not at all---you just put a constitutional amendment outlawing our marriages on the ballot.

"Civil rights is about who you are not the choices you make."

Most people agree that homosexuality is inborn, while religion is inarguably a choice; therefore, religious protections should be the first ones removed from our laws.

"Why not legalize marriage with dogs?"

Oh, how original---another yes-on-8 supporter obsessed with man/dog romance. Just ask your cocker spaniel for a date already!

"why not focus your efforts in organizing overturning the decision."

Oh, we are.

[Drew]

If we have to shut down the city and the state to obtain equal rights, we will do so.

No justice, no peace! Or at least no easy commute for whiny yuppies in their oversized SUVs -- apparently traffic flow is the only thing that you whiners notice or care about.

[Matthew G.]

"You should use your energy more wisely and stop all this "violated our civil rights" nonsense. Go back to school, this is NOT civil issue but a moral issue. You are not a race or nationality but a way of life. "

This is a foolish and ignorant statement. It reeks of that "Gay people choose to live that lifestyle, it's a choice; they aren't real minorities" rhetoric that is so prevalent in extremist religious and conservative communities. Researchers have found that in fact gay people do not choose their lifestyle, that it is most likely something that is fundamental at birth. Why would someone ever choose to live with the constant disapproval of a majority of their fellow citizens? Why would you ever want to be hated?

This comes down to the fundamental issue of separation of church and state. By forcing your beliefs about the "moral issue" on others you are robbing them of fundamental rights afforded by the legal definition of marriage. Religious definitions of what marriage is should be left to their various congregations to endorse and apply in own lives; It should not be writ into the law of the state.

[Matthew G.]

"You should use your energy more wisely and stop all this "violated our civil rights" nonsense. Go back to school, this is NOT civil issue but a moral issue. You are not a race or nationality but a way of life. "

This is a foolish and ignorant statement. It reeks of that "Gay people choose to live that lifestyle, it's a choice; they aren't real minorities" rhetoric that is so prevalent in extremist religious and conservative communities. Researchers have found that in fact gay people do not choose their lifestyle, that it is most likely something that is fundamental a birth. Why would someone ever choose to live with the constant disapproval of a majority of their fellow citizens? Why would you ever want to be hated?

This comes down to the fundamental issue of separation of church and state. By forcing your beliefs about the "moral issue" on others you are robbing them of fundamental rights afforded by the legal definition of marriage. Religious definitions of what marriage is should be left to their various congregations to endorse and apply in own lives; It should not be writ into the law of the state.

[bob]

marriage is for opposite sexes.(ability to reproduce-otherwise no one will be left
) Every child deserves a mother and father. It is all about the kids and our future generation. this is a no brainer.

[Laklo]

"The people have spoken." B.S.

Only 52% of Californians voted to eliminate the right to marry for same sex couples. In the meantime, the state Supreme Court ruled in favor of same sex marriages and the state legislature voted for same sex marriages twice. And now Republican governor Schwazenagger is saying Prop 8 should be overturned. We have a system of checks and balances in our government so that a bare majority can not take away the rights of a minority.

This is not a moral or religious issue. This is a civil rights issue. Marriage licenses -- and the responsibilities and privileges that come with them -- are issued and administered by the GOVERNMENT (a CIVIL entity), not any church. Each church then has the freedom to grant the sacrament of marriage to only those they see fit. The two are completely separate in our society. Remember separation of church and state?

And by the way, homosexuality is NOT a choice. It just "is" and always has been. California recognized that a while ago and established gays and lesbians as a protected minority. The state constitution guarantees equal protection -- all Californians must be treated equally under the law. Domestic Partnerships create a separate and not quite equal situation that is unacceptable (that type of scenario has never worked in the past).

Keep your religious beliefs out of our state constitution and we'll keep our marriages out of your church. Deal?

[GEAH]

Nothing angers the left more than voters voting!

[jimsr]

the government should get out of the marriage 'business'.
They should issue partnership contracts and let each
religious group decide who they wish to marry in their
community of members. There are non-denominational
churches to take cre of the rest.

[Camis]

I'm astonished that so many people are angry about traffic tie-ups. It is past time for all of us to think beyond our own selfishness and consider the rights and concerns of others. Civil Rights. Human Rights.

... and the Pursuit of Happiness. Ring a bell?

Gays had the legal right to marry until this Prop 8 hate vote passed. Does this send the message that any legal right can be taken away? So what would be next? Women can't vote anymore? Blacks can't vote anymore?

The Mormon Church, which played a large part in sponsoring Prop 8,
doesn't exactly hold the "moral highground" on the issue of marriage anyway.
Given their history of polygamy, their stance is hyprocritcal on top of everything else. Bigoted, prejudiced, hypocrtical, and ignorant.

I'm straight, but I will always take a stand against prejudice and injustice. Tie up my traffic all you want, Keep it loud and visible. That's what I say.

Straight Against 8...... everyone welcome to join in.

[missing the U.S.A.]

Kaiser you're right on the money! It's not about having rights ..those are had through the civil unions! Why can't polygamist have their way too? aren't their civil rights being violated? What about those over 18 who want consensual sex with a minor? What about their civil rights?? Who is to say it's not the same thing? Heck why can't I marry my dog?!?! I love him, he loves me So...what's the problem??? I say those who voted yes on 8 Their rights are being violated, and trampled on. I mean it's trampling on the voting process. Bills don't matter if their passed anymore..have enough money to take action and something will be found to be wrong with the bill!! Democracy is becoming a joke!! America is so worried about external threats to democracy, what about the internal ones?!?!?! WAKE UP PEOPLE!! millions of lives have been lost for the right to vote..and now????? American (californian) democracy?? What a joke!!!

[Lane]

I supported Prop. 8 but I do not think the homosexual community should be condemned for protesting. We are a democracy. Protesting, if done in a peaceful fashion, is one way to exercise our freedom of speech. I hope the protests will focus on the gay community's perceived benefits of gay marriage as opposed to attacking supporters of Prop. 8. Hate or bigotry were not behind the passage of Prop. 8 and I am disappointed to read the hateful comments of Prop. 8 supporters in their protests of religious institutions. Many (probably not all, but many) of those who voted YES on Prop. 8 did not do so out of a hatred of homosexuals but out of a view that marriage is uniquely designed for one man and one woman and that extending marriage outside of the one man and one woman will weaken the meaning marriage has in society. In balancing the importance of marriage with helping homosexuals feel more equal, voters chose to vote for a stronger institution of marriage. Wanting marriage to mean more to the man and woman who enter into one is a laudable goal.

[Freedom Monger]

To USE God to endorse *your* prejudice is a sin.
Since when did a majority of prejudiced people give equal rights to the minority that they are prejudiced against?
This is why "Equal Protection Under the Law" exists, to protect Gays and Lesbians and other minorities (from prejudiced voters).
Taking away equality; taking away the Right to be Wed is - these actions of taking other's rights away are not a "Civil Right" - it is a majority of prejudiced people reflecting how sad their marriages really are (for if they can only feel good about THEIR marriages by saying a whole group of people are unworthy...sinful...undeserving...it just shows that they cannot feel good about who they are unless they have a group to see as "sinful" and bad").
We are who we are - even if you wish to deny us equal rights and lie to yourselves - that being who we are is a choice.
It is a choice -
For us to not succumb to hateful, straight environments.
No matter how much one is "out" of the closet - it is the "straight-dictatorship" that traps us in one, against our wills.
Gays and Lesbians will never let this go, because Equal Rights under the Law is what America is about.
We will take our freedom.
We will take our equality.
God doesn't endorse your prejudice, and we will not let you deny us our rights.
You are not the deciders of our equality.
We are equal, and we will always reclaim our equality.

[tom]

I think some people have some major heterophobia

[Marc]

Gays and Lesbians do not get the same rights with domestic partnerships or with civil unions, because they are not recognized on a federal level.

The LGBT community is openly discriminated against by one of the largest employers of the united states- The US ARMY. 30 states still permit firing for being part of the LGBT community and 39 still permit firing for being transgender. Federal law does not protect, I repeat DOES NOT protect against this as sexuality is not included under federal law (though there have been cases where it has been fought and won).

Being Gay is not a choice. Why would someone choose such a difficult and hated life? Also studies have not shown that it is a choice. Studies are showing that it has to do with hormones released from the Mother during pregnancy.

Marriage was not traditionally about love either, it was about dowery. Men owned their wives as property. Divorce was not traditional of marriage or part of God's word either.

Homosexuality does occur naturally in nature, there are many well documented reports of this.

The suggestion of homosexuality and marriage slipping into people marrying animals is ridiculous and offensive. This is a form of rape on the animals.

I don't care if people have polygamist relations, as long as no one is getting hurt. They do not effect me in any way. So, let the Mormons have as many wives as they want (even though the women are usually forced into these relationships, and that is why they are illegal), or who ever else wishes the same.

The reason why inbreed is illegal is because this falls under rape typically, along with inbreeding causes deformed births. But then again, I don't care, it does not effect me. Unless if I'm one of those kids.

As far as society examples of excepting homosexuals over the years, we tend to forget about those of which we took America land from-Native Americans. Native Americans openly except homosexuals and even regard them as sacred. I a not familiar with their marriage practices though.

There are seven countries who except same-sex marriages. And as far as those who have asked for proof of these marriages in previous times
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/index-bos.html
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/1979boswell.html

The marriage of two people from the same-sex will not have any negative effect on you or your family. It will not harm your marriage in anyway. I still do not understand how it will as no one has been able to give a logical explanation on how it will water down their marriage or destroy their family, other then in the sense that it will be excepted to be Gay.

It will not be taught in school, and if it was... what's the problem? That your children might learn that it is OK to be Gay? To be who they are?
Because that is what you are saying when you do not want it to be taught in school. So admit it, you don't like Gay people. Thats fine, but that does not mean we can not have the same privileges as you.

Did we vote on inter-racial marriage? NO. It was passed by judges also.

How were your rights violated when four judges passed a law allowing people to get married? How did it effect you? They did not take your right away to be homophobic, the same way that no one's right was taken away to be racist when Blacks were allowed to vote or become president or enter into inter-racial marriages.

I don't like Mormons, and they choose to be Mormon as some choose to be Christian. Right? Is religion not somewhat of a choice? Something you choose to believe in? Your not born a Mormon, Christian or buddhist, your raised as one or convert. Can we vote to ban all Mormons from getting married then? They challenge my idea of a good moral upbringing of a family.

P.s. Sorry about the traffic(I'm not being sarcastic, I know how annoying it must be). But we won't stop until we are left alone and given the same treatment and fairness as everyone else.