Stop blaming blacks for Prop. 8 passage, some say

First, we saw the backlash against black voters who supported Prop. 8 by larger margin. Now, there is a backlash against critics who are blaming those voters for quashing gay marriage in California. Here's a sample, from Raymond Leroy Roker at the Huffington Post:

Excuse me? I voted against Proposition 8. I'm among the 30 percent of black Californians that did so. And as much as I can condemn the homophobia and intolerance that drove a portion of the 70 percent of blacks that voted in favor of Proposition 8's ban on gay marriage, it's an outrage to lay its passage at their feet. I've read several editorials already about how the ungrateful blacks betrayed gays right after America gave them their first president. I know there are some wounds and frayed nerves right now, but this type of condescending, divide and conquer isn't going to help at all. And it's a gross oversimplification of what happened. According to the exit polling, there's enough blame to go around. Don't forget the 49 percent of Asians who voted for Prop 8. And the 53 percent of Latinos who fell in line for it too. And then there is the white vote in support of 8. Slightly under 50% percent of them, a group representing 63% of California voters, voted "Yes" on 8. Last I checked blacks held little sway over all of those groups.

Andrew Sullivan also tells Prop. 8 foes to chill out. "There is a difference between blaming African Americans and recognizing that the black community needs to be engaged more energetically on this issue." Daily Kos tries to poke holes in the exit poll numbers showing overwhelming black supporting for Prop. 8 Interesting, LaDoris Cordell in Salon discussed her concerns about the black vote and Prop. 8 well before election day.

-- Shelby Grad

Comments

[Keith]

So it's not ok to criticize blacks for their actions? Why not? Is it because of their skin color? Does that give them a pass on their actions? Blacks can discriminate, and that's ok?

[STEVE]

Why does the GAY Community feel like it's SOMEONE ELSE's FAULT that they lost the second time in a row????????? Do they not have a sense of INTGERTY to look into their own FAILED campaign? ALL we're seeing now is their HATE/ FRUSTRATION against those ran a FAIR CAMPAIGN

[In the Valley]

The fact is that Whites, Asian, and Latinos basically split their vote on the measure. Although a large percent of Blacks voted for the measure, they really didn't make up a large enough percentage of the electorate to make that much difference. This was mainly a measure driven by whites, who constituted 63 percent of the electorate, and in real numbers, 4 times as whites voted for the measure as Latinos.

[Jeffrey Root]

The only way to make things fair for both parties is this...
There should always be a separation of church and state. All partnerships, Gay or Straight should be recognized by the government as civil unions. If they claim that marriage is a religious institution then leave it to the religions to choose who's marriage they will recognize. Under the government things should be equal for everyone.

[DANI]

NUMBERS DON'T LIE...thats all I have to say

[ZG]

The truth is that ethnic minorities in California on average voted for prop 8. Trying to make light of that is only an attempt to blame religious people who come off as better targets, to avoid having the tables turned. Many are saying that black people were tricked by advertising. The truth is there are only two ways to approach this issue:either 7 out of 10 truly supported prop 8 because of their beliefs or they are easily duped. You can't have it both ways. Opponents of prop 8 can't keep blacks on their side morally without insulting their intelligence. The truth is that most of the black community as a whole believes that marriage is between a man and a woman. It doesn't make gays anti-black, it just means they disagree with them on this issue and have to accept that. It is wrong to insult the intelligence of the black community by pretending they misunderstood a clear proposition.

[pb]

It is so clear to me the woeful failure of the gay community to effectively mount an inclusive farreaching campaign against the ban was responsible...they ought to learn a lesson or two from our President-elect on how to engage citizens. They failed miserably.

Somehow, I feel gay whites are clueless and ignorant about race, insensitive to it, and they demand support from other minorities with no real effort to give it in return,

perhaps they got a rude awakening and lesson from Nov. 5th. I happen to believe in their rights, but at the same time, am quite critical of their movement and attitudes as noted above.

[Jimmy]

Keith -

When WHITE people oppress others, it's called discrimination. When black people do it, we're not allowed to talk about it or we're racist!

Civil rights only apply to black people, as we all know. NO ONE ELSE has ever sufferred discrimination so they can't use the term "civil rights" when attempting to correct an injustice.

[Michelle]

Frankly, I don't think as many gays are blaming blacks as the media would have us believe. (Drama sells after all)

Yes some gay people are saying some stupid stuff. And some black people are bashing right back. I'm having a peaceful respectful conversation online, and all the sudden posters started flooding in about the "gay white community is racist and disgusting".

Look, we're not all racist. Some of us are just baffled by the number, are hurt and want to know why.

Unfortunately this is going to spark nationwide protests that I hope don't taint the beginning of Obama's Administration too much. But we're tired of waiting for our civil rights.

[Stephen]

That was a very post by Keith. I agree with Raymond Leroy Roker. Though there is some homophobia in ethnic communities, we are all individuals. It would be very racist of people to place the blame at the feet of one group over another.

[stephen]

In response to Steve's comment that "ALL we're seeing now is their HATE/ FRUSTRATION against those ran a FAIR CAMPAIGN":

I don't think using that little girl (the one who discovers a book about a princess who marries a princess) to lie about how gay marriage will be taught in schools was part of a fair campaign. Placing lawn signs on other people's business establishments wasn't very fair. Using myspace to promote Prop 8 when myspace didn't condone those ads wasn't fair either.

[Chris]

I agree with Andrew more than Raymond on this one. I think we do ourselves a diservice by burrying our head in the sand and pretending that the African American community did not make a huge mistake in this situation. However, it's also counterproductive to vilify them. This is more of an opportunity to see a community that needs more education on LGBT issues. My gay black friends all argued that in the African American community, LGBT issues are swept under the rug and while their parents were often accepting of them, their sexualty was taboo at all family and community events. I do not believe that African Americans are naturaly or intentionaly bigoted, so this should be seen as more of a roadmap for what needs to be done, instead of a statistic we use to vent our dissapointment and create long-term divides where they do not need to exist.

[Eric]

As someone who as always supported black causes, whether it be more business....better areas I am hurt by African American's support of Prop 8. I was one of the people saying to engage the African American Community more...the most we did was show the commmercial with Samuel Jackson (who rocks by the way) as the voice in the background...

[O-town]

Sadly, the ethnic minorities and the pompous Whites who cling desperately to antiquated definitions of love, were to blame for the passing of Prop 8. It's amazing how quickly the religious zealots forget that the same people who were preaching to them on the weekend before the elections about marriage being an institution between a man and a woman, were also the cess pool that allowed them access to your boys while they served as altar servers in your churches. Yes on Prop 8 did not run a fair campaign. They flat out lied. They played on the heterosexual fear of having to explain homosexuality to their kids. They figured it was bad enough they have to discuss sex with the opposite sex with their kids, how much more to discuss gays and lesbians. Our thanks to the ethnic minorities who knew better than to vote the passing of a discriminatory proposition. To those who voted against us, here's hoping we don't make you follow the bible, word for word, on remarrying, pre-marital sex, and living with someone you're not married. Now who's the danger to children and the institution of marriage?

[Matt P.]

I am not angry, I am confused. As a gay man, it is perplexing how any woman, or person of color could consciously have voted Yes on Prop 8. Maybe the campaign did not effectively communicate with these groups, but at the end of the day Blacks, American Indians, Latinos, Asians (any person of color) and women have all fought to have their civil rights protected at one time or another. Hell, less than 50 years ago Blacks and Whites were fighting to get married. So, on the day of the election when any of these groups came to proposition 8, I just wonder what it is that swayed them. Was it religion? Was it homophobia? Either way, it is a testament that America still has a lot of growing up to do when minorities across the united states can stand together, but only within their divided groups. I for one may be most profusely effected by opposition for gay rights, but that does not mean I don't suuport immigration and workers right for Latinos, anti-discrimination policies amongst police officers protecting Blacks or a woman's right to choose an abortion.

[Mitch]

I do not think 'white gays' are solely blaming the African American community. B did gay people expect a group that was vilely segregated and banned from marrying outside their race would understand more than other groups such as Christians and Latins? Yes, they did. That is the true issue here.
The gay community is NOT blaming the black community. But gays are shocked that they are voting against their civil rights after knowing first hand what it feels like to be oppressed. And on top of that, to vote Yes by the largest percentage of any voting block.
Everyone can focus on the nuances of civil rights to distract from the bigger picture- making sure a group of people have equality does not affect anyone else's rights. Civil rights apply to everyone. They always have. They always will. Just like interracial marriage didn't cause children to suddenly change who they were attracted to, neither will gay marriage.

[Dennis N.]

Could it be that the electorate merely chose to recognize that legally a civil union equals marriage, so there are no missing rights? The difference was a definition of terms. During sufferage and civil rights the rights weren't the same. Women and Blacks were not asking to be called male or white, they wanted the same rights as the males and whites. The gay community has those rights in civil unions. They wanted to redefine terms. The electorate didn't agree...twice. The way they are protesting is only reinforcing the notion that this group is the intolerant and angry.

[hybridAmerican]

People seem to lack empath, an awareness of history, and the ideals of being American. Any person here in America, is free to have the same rights as anyone else. Separate, is not equal. People who are members of the KKK and Aryan Nation have absolute rights, and we as a society know how damaging they as a group are and yet there has never been a proposition to take away their rights. I don't agree with the calls of "race wars" as the KKK wants, but I would not vote to end their free speech, the right to marry, vote etc. It's America, every one has a right to be free.

Gay people does not = White people. Gay people come from all walks of life and civil rights does not = Black People. Civil rights are civil rights no matter where on this planet you are. There are currently a few civil wars going on between different ethnic groups that are fighting for their civil rights. A civil rights moment occurs when a group of people are systematically targeted and denied their basic rights. Even Coretta Scott King spoke heavily to the Black community about Gay civil rights.

Gay people are not blaming religion. There are many gay people of religious faith. But, the LSD Mormon Church are the ones who threw the first stone. They rallied among the various religious communities into the cause and they are implementing their interpretation of the Bible and God, into the state of California. Marriage is a STATE institution. It is only becomes a religious institution if you are a person of faith. Atheist can get married without having to choose a religious sector or church.

If there was a ban for people being Vegetarians, or being pet owners, then we would all be hearing of protests. Protesting is part of our democratic system. It helps start the dialog for society, makes us aware of diversity and forces people to deal with social issues affecting fellow Americans.

[hybridAmerican]

People seem to lack empath, an awareness of history, and the ideals of being American. Any person here in America, is free to have the same rights as anyone else. Separate, is not equal. People who are members of the KKK and Aryan Nation have absolute rights, and we as a society know how damaging they as a group are and yet there has never been a proposition to take away their rights. I don't agree with the calls of "race wars" as the KKK wants, but I would not vote to end their free speech, the right to marry, vote etc. It's America, every one has a right to be free.

Gay people does not = White people. Gay people come from all walks of life and civil rights does not = Black People. Civil rights are civil rights no matter where on this planet you are. There are currently a few civil wars going on between different ethnic groups that are fighting for their civil rights. A civil rights moment occurs when a group of people are systematically targeted and denied their basic rights. Even Coretta Scott King spoke heavily to the Black community about Gay civil rights.

Gay people are not blaming religion. There are many gay people of religious faith. But, the LSD Mormon Church are the ones who threw the first stone. They rallied among the various religious communities into the cause and they are implementing their interpretation of the Bible and God, into the state of California. Marriage is a STATE institution. It is only becomes a religious institution if you are a person of faith. Atheist can get married without having to choose a religious sector or church.

If there was a ban for people being Vegetarians, or being pet owners, then we would all be hearing of protests. Protesting is part of our democratic system. It helps start the dialog for society, makes us aware of diversity and forces people to deal with social issues affecting fellow Americans.

[hybridAmerican]

People seem to lack empath, an awareness of history, and the ideals of being American. Any person here in America, is free to have the same rights as anyone else. Separate, is not equal. People who are members of the KKK and Aryan Nation have absolute rights, and we as a society know how damaging they as a group are and yet there has never been a proposition to take away their rights. I don't agree with the calls of "race wars" as the KKK wants, but I would not vote to end their free speech, the right to marry, vote etc. It's America, every one has a right to be free.

Gay people does not = White people. Gay people come from all walks of life and civil rights does not = Black People. Civil rights are civil rights no matter where on this planet you are. There are currently a few civil wars going on between different ethnic groups that are fighting for their civil rights. A civil rights moment occurs when a group of people are systematically targeted and denied their basic rights. Even Coretta Scott King spoke heavily to the Black community about Gay civil rights.

Gay people are not blaming religion. There are many gay people of religious faith. But, the LSD Mormon Church are the ones who threw the first stone. They rallied among the various religious communities into the cause and they are implementing their interpretation of the Bible and God, into the state of California. Marriage is a STATE institution. It is only becomes a religious institution if you are a person of faith. Atheist can get married without having to choose a religious sector or church.

If there was a ban for people being Vegetarians, or being pet owners, then we would all be hearing of protests. Protesting is part of our democratic system. It helps start the dialog for society, makes us aware of diversity and forces people to deal with social issues affecting fellow Americans.

[Ed]

Some people are trying to deflect criticism of black churches and their role in the passage of Prop 8. Fair enough. Maybe it's not fair to make sweeping generalizations like that.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to write a letter to the editor castigating the Mormon and Catholic churches for their support of Prop 8.

[sakibaba]

I am ashamed to call myself a Californian today....History will remember this bigoted genration and hold it responsible. There will be a day when our kids will look at us with disgust.....
Continue the fight.....in the end truth shall overcome all..its happeneing around the world......unfortunately instead of being jewel of civil rights...CA will get its place in the books of being the KKK hub of anti-gay movement...........

[Roy]

I live in NC and was trying to understand this. So I did a little research on wikipedia.

"In terms of number of individuals, California has the largest population of White Americans in the U.S., an estimated 21,810,156 residents. The state has the fifth largest population of African Americans in the U.S., an estimated 2,260,648 residents."

so whites outnumber blacks about 10-1. This being said. I don't understand how you can say that black people are the reason it passed. For comparison sakes. 100% of black would have had to vote and vote no, while less than 10 percent of whites would have had to vote and vote yes. Someone please explain to me how this is the black communities fault.

[Ness in Silverlake]

The hateful no on 8 campaign needs to stop whining and assessing blame and learn how to mount a successful campaign. Obviously race and not doing effective outreach is an issue in their own community. Even their protests don't attract gay people of color. They're are as white as a McCain'Palin rally.

I voted no on 8 but the anti black, latino and mormon church tirades won't get you any closer to your goal. The mormons, catholics and evangelists have every right to put as much money into the yes on 8. They're the opposition that's what they're suppose to do.

Shut them up by running an effective inclusive campaign or accept your loss and stop assessing blame. Try looking what did work and what doesn't. That includes a hard look at the people running the no on 8.

[KG]

I'm so sick of the gays talking about marriage. Marriage is between a MAN and WOMAN. You people are contributing to the moral decay of our society. You will NOT force your immoral lifestyle on the masses. People will continue to vote against gay marriage. Get over yourselves. Move to an island and be gay all you want. You'll all die off in a generation b/c 2 men and 2 women CANNOT make babies!! Reality check.

[MatthewScott]

All Blacks aren't being blamed, only the 70% that supported Prop- 8. We've been down the marrage restriction law path before with race and religion being the target. We know how that went. Any groups or organizations who contributes money and support votes to remove the civil rights of their fellow citizens, deserves to be called out on their actions. Period.

[James Wilson]

I think that the No on 8 protesters should march and protest in South Central and Inglewood against the black vote. I would love to see this because there wouldn't be anymore protests.

[Wade]

Black ARE hypocrites,but then again, but the bigger hypocrites are Gay Blacks, There were hardly any of them at the Protests there were some but for the most part it was just White/Asian/Hispanic I think the ration was 100 to 1 but boy there sure are very good at going to the local gay bars on the weekend...as a Gay man I think We should basically shun them from every Anglo/Latin/Asian gay Bar in California to see if they GET IT....Blacks say that its not the same...Trust me if I could change from being gay I would...I think it would be a much easier life...most blacks live on their little world of DOWN LOW....yeah right, its just another term for CLOSET CASE, All Men Cheat, gay straight you should see how many STRAIGHT men frequent the local adult bookstores, most take off their rings ...there is no in between, if you really want to Save Marriage "Ban Divorce" I say this, if Being black is so difficult, why dont they do what Michael Jackson did....do the bleach thing...I sure your insurance will cover it .

[Rick]

Blacks made a mistake??? REALLY???? so because blacks didn't vote the way you wanted them to THEY MADE A MISTAKE?? I'm sorry I thought they had the RIGHT to vote ANY way they choose just as anybody else. I can't stand how people feel that Blacks owe it to the gays to vote against prop 8. The majority of Americans vote based off of their values. Republicans do it all the time!! So why can't they? The supporters of prop 8 are really beginning to sicken me, no not because I'm a homophobe, but because of their BLATANT disrespect of a), the autonomy of the black vote, b) the WILL OF THE PEOPLE!!! Stop whinning about rights, and respect the right of the majority vote no matter how slim the margin! THAT IS DEMOCRACY!!!! DO WE REALLY HAVE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IF PEOPLE ARE GETTING ROASTED FOR VOTING YES ON PROP 8?!?!?! DO WE REALLY??? And I'm getting so TIRED of how everything negitive said about homosexuality is automatically being "hateful" NO IT ISN'T!! Personally I'm against it, but just because I'm against it doesn't mean I'm against the person who practices it! But I'm sure some would still say I'm a homophobe, and I'm being "hateful." I'm sure that is how Jesus would have been as well. Look at his example in how he dealt with "sinners'" when he was on earth. He loved them but not what they did. How can I not be against the practice as a Christian when the bible is clearly against it?? 1 Corinthians 6:9..(is the bible homophobic too???) is nothing sacred anymore?? Democracy is founded on Americans voting based off of their beliefs and values. This is what's American. Today gay marriage. tomorrow, "rights" of man/woman-child marriage???, the day after "rights" to have relations with pets?? When will it all stop? I'm sorry call me what you want but as a Christian I had to stand up for what I beleive in...after all isn't that what you're doing?? but now the vote is over...and if you don't like the will of the "slim" majority MOVE OUT OF CALIFORNIA!!

[Shame on California]

Let's vote to reinstate slavery. That's okay, right? I'm sure the corporations would love it! And people would vote for it (free house cleaning and gardening!). After all, the poeple's voices would have been heard. Right? Free labor force! Right? Let's put it to the vote!

[Evan in LA]

These protests are absolutely ridiculous. At this point, the only thing they accomplish is even more traffic and a decrease in the already little credibility the No on 8 people already had. You can blame people like Gavin Newsome for you little tragedy. He was intent on forcing his beliefs on the majority of people in this state who don't believe in same-sex marriage. This issue has been voted on twice within 10 years and the result remains the same. The people of the State of California DO NOT support gay marriage and no amount of moaning, complaining, and overall immaturity will change that. See you in Massachusetts.

[Wes]

Kudos to the gay community for attacking minorities and religious groups for voting their beliefs. Thanks for your hateful, bitter protests that are "escalating". You are showing your true nature. You do not want "equality". Equality means abiding by majoriity rules. You want courts to overturn the will of the people AGAIN. What arrogance!

You lost this issue with 47.5% of the vote. Why are you cry-babying about it? That is a close vote. Go out and POSITIVELY campaign to win the NEXT TIME -- at the ballot box and not in the courtroom and you might just win. But I guarantee that this spiteful, hateful campaign will only lose you votes next time around. And if you do succeed in getting a few judges to cram it down the people's throats, you will only engender a lifetime of bitterness from people who believe in democracy.

I wish the gay community would tell the truth for once. Thankfully the truth of the lesbian grade school teacher getting married with her class there as a "learning experience" did more to expose the true homosexual agenda than 1,000 speeches from lying gay people.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

[DC]

I didn't vote for Prop 8. I realize that I'm in the minority. But, I am not only in the minority of my own ethnic community, but of the larger heterosexual community as a whole. If you look at the statistics, it seems that straight people of every group voted for the proposition. Think about it. Even if only 49% of a group voted for it, you have to consider that about 10% of that group is gay, and likely voted against the proposition. So, the straight population of every group voted for the ban. I'm not saying that it's right, I'm just pointing out that it's ridiculous to blame the ban on any one group ... especially the smallest of the major ethnic groups in the state.

[Elrey Jones]

Blame the heterosexuals for its passage. Blame the Muslims who hate homosexuals or the Christian Right who hate homosexuals. But don't blame black people. Blame the preachers and the priests and the nuns and the imans. Blame decent people. But don't blame the perverted pornographers, ultra liberal mafia organizations, the hollywood dufus's, or the homosexual people themselves. Put the blame where it should go but don't blame the blameless.

[Daviid]

yes every group had people who voted for this proposition. Asians, latinos and white were heavily divided voting roughly between 48 and 53 percent for the measure. The african american community overwhelming voted in favor of 8 with 70% percent voting yes.
Basic math show with blacks representing 10% of the voters this proposition would have been a near dead even if they had just split the vote.
While we can't blame them for the loss, and yes we obviosly did not engage them well on this issue. For it we had engaged them, and as fellow victims of hate today and in the past...it would be unforgiveable if they still had the audacity to take away their rights.
How quickly we forget that just over 40 years ago laws against interracial marriage was finally taken off the books.

[Joe Santini]

Hello to all,

We need to get the gay community in California to strike back at the LATINO and Black community for voting against us. When anything comes up for immigration or social issues we must get together and VOTE against their cause. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. I was protesting at Mormon Temple in Oakland yesterd and will be back there again on Saturday - NOON in California.
We also must protest in fornt of the Catholic Cathedrals on Sunday Morning during masses, so we can be seen and heard. WE MUST NOT HIDE!

[thinker]

I've protested the Klan, and I many times I have taken action against discrimination against blacks. Not any more. They stabbed the gay community in the back. Ungrateful self centered jerks.

[FVB]

This is so nasty, both the vote and these discussions. I'm so happy that here in Massachusetts our legislature saw fit to avoid all of this. Peace.

[Leticia]

GAY PEOPLE GET OVER IT, STOP PROTESTING. THE PEOPLE OF CALIFORNIA HAVE SPOKEN. STOP HATING THEM FOR IT

[Zach]

Contrary to what Joe says above, no one wants to "get back" at the groups that passed this, that's stupid and pointless! What no on 8 people WANT is to prevent an unnecessary blot of prejudice to stain our constitution. The best we could hope to do in "trying again next time" is to put in another passage voiding the first. Then maybe someone can write ANOTHER passage voiding the second and our constitution can get to looking like a high school scratchpad!

No, this needs to be fought. Now. People making their voices heard against opposition is as much a part of the growth of this nation as voting has been. We always seem to be so quick top forget that when we're in the majority.

[Interested in Solutions]

What is striking about this conflict is that it is a stark illustration of the rule that being the target of discrimination doesn't mean that you either understand, or generally disagree with, a policy of invidious discrimination. We should appreciate (albeit while rioting in the streets) the opportunity to get hit over the head with this principle, since it's very important. This vote seems to be a byproduct of the preference for, and political expedience of, identity politics over a focus on general principles of decency and fair play. Here we can see why this is a disasterous preference. Seventy percent of African-Americans who voted apparently failed to get the fundamental principles of fairness violated by Prop 8, illustrating Freire's concept of the oppressed becoming the oppressors. Once you get cozy enough, it's easy to turn your backs on those that are lower in the pecking order. But really, how the hell does it take a 2/3's vote to pass a budget, but only a simple majority of simple folk to strip a true minority of our constitutional right to wed? This needs to be fixed.

[outsider]

i far has i am concerned the issue of gay rights and how blacks were treated 40 years ago shouldn't even be compared. gays aren't being told to go to the back of the bus, they aren't being held has slaves and they most certainly are not being hung by nooses. so to compare the two is very insulting because gays will never be treated as poorly as african americans have been and still are being treated in america today.

[Jeremy]

Proposition 8 clearly stated on the ballot:

ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME-SEX COUPLES TO MARRY

Voters knew what they were doing when they cast their ballot. Voters took away gay people's right to marry and they knew it. Stop excusing anti-gay bigotry.

[rob]

The difference with the Blacks and the Gays is that with the Blacks they can't change the color of their skin. With the Gays it is truly a choice no matter how hard they deny it. Civil rights apply to the blacks and equal rights apply to the gays. Why should civil rights apply to the gays when they don't want to abide by them anyhow. perhaps they deserve what they get. Even if they win this battle through the courts and hateful protests of intolerance they will never be able to force people to accept their lifestyle. Many of us will NEVER accept it as a normal lifestyle even if we are forced legally to support it.

[TlLewis]

Well if 30 per cent of Blacks voted against Proposition 8 then that is the FACTS.
To say STOP SAYING the FACT is STUPID.
Its like saying STOP SAYING the SUN is SHINNING. You can't do it because it IS SHINNING.
70 Per Cent IS 70 Per Cent. Seventy is 40 PER CENT more than 30 Per CENT. ITS BASIC MATH.
Please go back to school and learn SOMETHING before you Vote next time.

[TlLewis]

To choose to be gay or Lesbian?

What a sadly misguided statement. I don't know one single gay person who has "chosen" to be gay. We gays/lesbians are all genetically made by nature we have no choice in our behavior we are mere humans genetically altered by nature thriving for abudant sexual activity with our same sex while demanding equality in Rights.

We have no PRO choice, we are frozen, locked into our Gay bodies, or Lesbian Minds WE CANNOT CHOOSE. The Need for FREEDOM urges us on to desire what Hetersexuals have. So we want Marriage, Soon we will want children. Give us our Freedom.

We have never had the FREEDOM OF CHOICE because of genetic limitations! We groan and twist about the limitations our own genetic makeup because we were born Gay/Lesbian that prevent us from having the freedom to make the choice to be Heterosexual or Homosexual.

However, that I am Gay/Lesbain I am GLAD about being what I am. So I accept my genetic make up and choose to be like hetersexuals with regards to their legal Rights.

Give me FREEDOM - free me from the lack of Rights that Nature has done to me. Support our cause I HAVE NO CHOICE I am a minority and am unable to choose the those Rights that hetersexuals have. THE RIGHT OF MARRIAGE

We will get what we want and what we deserve to have ONE DAY.

[larry in la]

Evan in LA says, "Equality mean abiding by majority rules"

WOW! So slavery, Jim Crow and every other injustice in America's history--all fine examples of majority rule--are therefore examples of equality in your definition. Idiot.

[Patti]

Civil rights for blacks didn't come by popular vote. If we had depended on the popular vote to grant us any our rights...well...let's just say we wouldn't even have been allowed to vote on gay marriage today. Thank God there was no ballot initiative system then!!

Civil rights were achieved through the courts or through legislation. Because the majority will oppress the minority while citing their (honestly held) beliefs. However, beliefs can be discriminatory, even when honestly held. Gay marriage will have to be worked out in the absence of majority approval. Just as civil rights have been achieved in this country in the past. That appears to be shocking to everyone. But I don't know why.

I'm African American and I voted against Proposition 8.

[Maureen]

I work with several older black people, who I respect and always will not matter how they chose to view homosexuals, that said the day after the election they came into work and were explaining to me how they felt about Obama being elected, like it was this huge weight finally lifted off of thier shoulders, and then in the same conversation they both thanked god that prop 8 passed, so I asked them why they felt it was appropiate to take the weight that had been lifted from thier shoulders only to put it on another minority group. They tried to bring up the bible but I can disprove anything anyone tries to bring up and I did to which they finally agreed that when they are first introduced to someone who is gay they immediatly think of the "sex" ... How disrespectful is that, I told them when they tell me about a new boyfriend I only want to know what type of person this guy is ext, I never even think about what might be going on in thier bedroom.... I love these woman and they only suffer from ignorance, most of which is taught to us from child hood up, look at the kid standing on the corners of the street with YES ON 8 signs... sad. MLK walked for the rights of all of gods children.

[David M.]

Those religious leaders and their followers who propagated this stain on our constitution in the name of Christianity should be ashamed. You are nothing more than bigots, and completely un-Christian in your actions. To think that by putting a smear like this on the ballot, running a campaign of lies and innuendo, and getting a slim majority to squeak it by represents the informed will of the people is a sham.

To prevent 2 people who love each other from making a legal commitment to each other is wrong. It's an act worthy of bullies and fear-mongers. To follow this course in the name of Jesus Christ makes of mockery of his name. How you can continue to call yourselves Christians while you actively promote disdain and discrimination toward your fellow men and women is beyond the pale. If you're against gay marriage, don't marry someone of the same sex, it's that simple.

Shame on you.

[Kate]

When MLK marched the whites said "what the hell does he want, they aren't in the cotton fields and chained up at night anymore", they actually were pissed that he expected or wanted anything more , granted they had their own fountains, expected to sit on the back of the bus, had their own schools, but hey they should just accept the segregation factor and move on- and everyone thinks that gays ought to just accept that they have civil unions and domestic partnerships but that they are not allowed to marry, give blood, adopt, and in many instances ex-communicated from their church, but just accept this and move on.. Where would the black community be today if MLK stopped his protests and just accepted things as they were???? All you black people need to put down the hate and get your butts out on the streets to march with the gay community as MLK would want and expect you to do. Lets honor MLK and his courage and continue the fight against all injustice

[rick]

blacks have opted for racial tension..

[Kirk Cordell]

I agree with Jeffrey Root. He so eloquently summed up the solution to this constitutional issue. "There should always be a separation of church and state. All partnerships, Gay or Straight should be recognized by the government as civil unions.....Under the government things should be equal for everyone."

To the rest of you I say that to blame blacks or latinos or whites is counterproductive. To have such a measure on the ballot as Prop 8 was in the first place unconstitutional because it codifies unequal treatment.

For those who make the ridiculous argument that to treat gay relationships equally under the law will lead to legalizing incestuous or bestial relationships I can only say you know it's absurd to make such a comparison so stop obfuscating the real issue: you hate gays, and you learned that hate from your religion most likely.

Stop confusing matters of religion with matters of state. Insofar as the state has any purview over relationship matters - taxes, estates, wills, it shouldn't require that there be a conjugal relationship anyway. Why should the state treat me - a single guy - any different than someone in a conjugal relationship?

This matter goes deeper than gay and straight. Why is the state meddling in such personal matters . Children? There are single parents aren't there? Estates? There are wills. Taxes? Why should couples' incomes be taxed differently?

If there is going to be a state-sponsored benefit to being "hitched" and sharing a home, it shouldn't matter if it's a gay or straight relationship, or two best friends living as roommates, or a son or daughter taking care of an elderly single parent.

But as a longtime "single" I don't understand why I should be taxed to pay expenses for the couple who had no business reproducing in the first place.

Kirk

[JD]

The backers of prop 8. counted on a high Black and Latino vote for Obama and knew they'd be most conversative in getting prop 8 passed. That is unfortunate and sad. You would think most struggling for however you want to term a right civil or otherwise, would have been more compassionate.

Now backers and voters of prop 8. are frustrated and angry over all the protests. This is America right? The will of the voters did not ask for this measure to be put up for a vote. Why didn't the backers go away after the California Supreme Courts decision?

Their rationale on this is the will of the people decided. Well there are checks and balances. I could see it if the will of the voters were experts in law, rights, and the constitution. That's why we have legislators and the courts. To act on our behalf and in the best interest of all.
How would you feel if they took away your right by ammendment to own a gun or they outlawed divorce?

[Sophie]

As a Muslim, I was reminded of the film "V for Vendetta." In it, the fascist futuristic society, while generally oppressive, has made being homosexual and being Muslim (even possessing a Qur'an) illegal. I thought of this as I voice my protest against Prop 8. I am against gay marriage, but I'm against Prop 8 also. You can't impose religious values on a secular society.

[Dr. Christopher Eaton]

A "Fair Campaign" Steve? I haven't seen such lies and deception in a campaign since perhaps the Swiftboat commercials. This Yes on H8 campaign was low-life scumbag campaigning at its finest, thank you.

[MrEguy]

I'm not interested in looking back one more second at which ethnic group voted "yes" more than the other: That's NOT a solution.

Let's get Prop 8 overturned by the CA Supreme Court.

[Dr. Christopher Eaton]

Ness in Silverlake,

These protests are hardly lilly white sweetness. The large march from Lincoln Heights to the Cathedral this weekend was predominantly Latino and Asian, with a smattering of Black and White. If you come to the massive protest at City Hall this weekend, you'll see what I'm talking about.

[Dr. Christopher Eaton]

The racist comments by my fellow gay people on this blog is revolting. Please let sense prevail. This civil rights groundswell that is growing by the hour includes all of us, every race, every age group. Do not let your rage be misdirected at people of color. Let's not forget that the LGBT community truly consists of every hue of skin. United We Stand, Divided We Fall!

[jason]

Its been one week since the LGBT community in California woke up with less rights than they went to bed with the night before. i've had a hard time getting out of bed this past week (except to go to protests). i've had a hard time focusing upon my work. . . I'm well behind and i don't care. I've been cycling between anger and depression. I haven't been eating. I also made the great mistake of sending out a pretty angry email to a listserve.

My anger has started to cool down a bit and I do agree with Dr. Eaton that we as a community need to come together--all of us. When you can and when you are ready, let us redirect our anger. Let us stop blaming others for this temporary setback. Realize that this anger is the seed of our future Equality. A sleeping giant has been awakened.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still pissed off. Just, Not at any ONE racial group (i haven't made peace with religious institutions who have declared war upon LGBT rights--that may take awhile longer--but, i've decided not to personally protest at religious institutions)

If you are angry and this submission pisses you off, i'm sorry for pissing you off. think about directing your anger in a way that no ONE group gets the blame for the passage of prop 8. No ONE group passed prop 8 on their own.

see you in the streets

[Eric]

Through passage of time mankind had a creed of how it was to interact for the greater good. Several creeds are well known: One for all and all for one; United we Stand Divided we fall and the Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

As an American’s citizen I voted yes for Prop 8 for several reasons. The argument, it is “My Fundamental Right” raises several important concepts.

The two concepts that come to mind are: Where does Fundamental right comes from? Do all citizens have fundamental rights?
• I believed everyone has a fundamental right. Therefore, if everyone has a fundamental right then how does society balance everyone’s fundamental rights?
Society balance fundamental rights by thinking of the mass and for the greater good. Fundamental rights are not absolute and to give fundamental rights absolute supremacy will create chaos. Therefore, there are limits to fundamental rights. For example, China has a policy of one child per family. If China were a democracy and if the Chinese people agreed (voted) with China’s national policy for one child, then obviously the fundamental rights of the minority (to have more than one child) would be denied.
• Still another example, I believe that it should be my fundamental right to married as many women as I like.
Yet, society says that I can only marry one woman at a time. In addition, I not only have a fundamental right but also a God given right to have as many children as I want. Obviously, society has placed a limit on my fundamental right. More importantly, women can argue the same; that it is their fundamental right to have as many children as they want because the bible says to go and pro-create.

The argument that fundamental right is absolute or guarantee despite society’s idea of the greater good or that it deny the minority (Gays and Lesbians) their fundamental right is weak in a democracy society.

• The next concept about a fundamental right is its origin. Where does a fundamental right come from? God or the Government/State!

If the State or Government gives an individual its fundamental right it is deciding what is the best way to balance a citizen’s Fundamental Rights. Meaning, the State or Government decided to balance all citizens’ fundamental right through laws or by voting. In essence, the State or Government is seeking the Greater Good for Society.

If fundamental right is God given then a marriage is between a man and a woman. Therefore, marriage can not be between two mans or two woman, especially in heterosexual’s environment. God stated to Adam and Eva, “be fruitful and go and multiple.”

The committed relationship between a man and a woman, a heterosexuals, relationship, in God’s eye, is not seen a sinful, rather fortification. In contrast, homosexual’s relationship is seen as sinful – fortification.

For Homosexuals to say to Almighty God ignore our sinful nature-fortification (The gays and Lesbians are not asking God to forgive their sinful nature but to ignore the sinful nature.) and to accept the committed homosexual relationship is blasphemy. For example, I robbed a bank and later I write to the Governor of the “Banana Republic State” and asked that Governor to ignore the robbery and to make my robbery legal is asinine.

God had the option to create man and man for pro-creation. Instead, God created Adam and Eve for pro-creation. Who are we to say to God ignore our sins and bless the committed “homosexual relationship.”

Finally, if citizens voting privileges are going to be ignored what trend or precedent are we setting? Those against Prop 8 did not protest before the Nov 4, 2008. They were going to accept the outcome if they won.

Correct me if I am wrong. According to the California Supreme Court in May 16, 2008, it stated, “In a 4-3 decision, the justices rule that people have a fundamental 'right to marry' the person of their choice”….. . Taken out of contents, some person will see he/she has a right to marry their sibling.

We all have fundamental rights – The fundamental right to marry my sister, brother, mother, father, or dog will be the next campaign. What standards will the courts use to deny those individuals their fundamental right to marry sibling, parents, etc?

For these reasons I voted yes on Prop 8. Oh yeah, Of course I am black.

[Eric]

Through passage of time mankind had a creed of how it was to interact for the greater good. Several creeds are well known: One for all and all for one; United we Stand Divided we fall and the Needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.

As an American’s citizen I voted yes for Prop 8 for several reasons. The argument, it is “My Fundamental Right” raises several important concepts.

The two concepts that come to mind are: Where does Fundamental right comes from? Do all citizens have fundamental rights?
• I believed everyone has a fundamental right. Therefore, if everyone has a fundamental right then how does society balance everyone’s fundamental rights?
Society balance fundamental rights by thinking of the mass and for the greater good. Fundamental rights are not absolute and to give fundamental rights absolute supremacy will create chaos. Therefore, there are limits to fundamental rights. For example, China has a policy of one child per family. If China were a democracy and if the Chinese people agreed (voted) with China’s national policy for one child, then obviously the fundamental rights of the minority (to have more than one child) would be denied.
• Still another example, I believe that it should be my fundamental right to married as many women as I like.
Yet, society says that I can only marry one woman at a time. In addition, I not only have a fundamental right but also a God given right to have as many children as I want. Obviously, society has placed a limit on my fundamental right. More importantly, women can argue the same; that it is their fundamental right to have as many children as they want because the bible says to go and pro-create.

The argument that fundamental right is absolute or guarantee despite society’s idea of the greater good or that it deny the minority (Gays and Lesbians) their fundamental right is weak in a democracy society.

• The next concept about a fundamental right is its origin. Where does a fundamental right come from? God or the Government/State!

If the State or Government gives an individual its fundamental right it is deciding what is the best way to balance a citizen’s Fundamental Rights. Meaning, the State or Government decided to balance all citizens’ fundamental right through laws or by voting. In essence, the State or Government is seeking the Greater Good for Society.

If fundamental right is God given then a marriage is between a man and a woman. Therefore, marriage can not be between two mans or two woman, especially in heterosexual’s environment. God stated to Adam and Eva, “be fruitful and go and multiple.”

The committed relationship between a man and a woman, a heterosexuals, relationship, in God’s eye, is not seen a sinful, rather fortification. In contrast, homosexual’s relationship is seen as sinful – fortification.

For Homosexuals to say to Almighty God ignore our sinful nature-fortification (The gays and Lesbians are not asking God to forgive their sinful nature but to ignore the sinful nature.) and to accept the committed homosexual relationship is blasphemy. For example, I robbed a bank and later I write to the Governor of the “Banana Republic State” and asked that Governor to ignore the robbery and to make my robbery legal is asinine.

God had the option to create man and man for pro-creation. Instead, God created Adam and Eve for pro-creation. Who are we to say to God ignore our sins and bless the committed “homosexual relationship.”

Finally, if citizens voting privileges are going to be ignored what trend or precedent are we setting? Those against Prop 8 did not protest before the Nov 4, 2008. They were going to accept the outcome if they won.

Correct me if I am wrong. According to the California Supreme Court in May 16, 2008, it stated, “In a 4-3 decision, the justices rule that people have a fundamental 'right to marry' the person of their choice”….. . Taken out of contents, some person will see he/she has a right to marry their sibling.

We all have fundamental rights – The fundamental right to marry my sister, brother, mother, father, or dog will be the next campaign. What standards will the courts use to deny those individuals their fundamental right to marry sibling, parents, etc?

For these reasons I voted yes on Prop 8.

[YesOn8]

Since when was redefining marriage a civil right?

It's ludicrous to suggest that the rest of America should overlook what most people consider to be a sexual deviation at best, or immorality at worst, and then be made to feel guilty about it.

Yes anyone has the right to choose a homosexual lifestyle, but others have the right to find that lifestyle immoral and to protect traditional marriage.

The pro-gay marriage supporters will never win as long as they try to force the rest of us to accept their opinions.

The right of marriage, confirmed by the USSC in Loving v Virginia is a right of a man to marry a woman, providing both meet the necessary qualifications.

There is no right to homosexual marriage, nor polygamy nor any other permutation of individuals.

But there is a rich irony in a mob of homosexuals standing outside a church and shouting "shame on you"!

[M. Conner]

I have read some of the comments that have been previously submitted. I am not surprised that some of these comments have attacked the blacks for their vote on Proposition 8. Yet, I would argue that the comments are somewhat counter-productive.

For instance, one writer submitted a proposal that blacks now be barred from frequenting white gays bars. Is it not ironic that this reaction to a perceived act of discrimination is in itself an act of discrimination? Perhaps this ludicrous remark was made in the heat of the moment, but perhaps not.

I suspect that all the vitriol now being hurled between the black community and the gay community is something like an erupting volcano. As with the magma associated with a volcano, the animosity and condescension of the whites gays towards blacks was always present. And the hostility of blacks towards gays is deeply ingrained in the black community. And it was this hostility that caused a large majority of blacks to vote for Proposition 8.

My background is such that I am on the periphery of many communities such as black, white, gay and professional. I interact with a diverse group of humanity and I know for a fact that those who have been discriminated against will often not hesitate to discriminate against others. This has occurred in the corporations that I have interacted with. This has occurred with some of the blacks that I have come into contact with. And it has occurred in gay bars teaming with whites who saw my brown face a something of an aberration. My perspective perhaps give me insight into the rift between gays and black folks - a rift that was present long before November 4, 2008

For all the white gays folks who have the audacity to call blacks hypocrites for voting for Proposition 8 let me remind you of the racial slurs being hurled at some of the protest events. Call me the N-word and then chant about equal rights. Talk about hypocrisy! You demand that blacks vote a certain way and you single them out as the cause of Proposition 8 passing. Yet, large numbers of gays did not even show up to vote! It is always hard to review failure in your own community and always easier to blame those different than you for your own shortcomings.

For all the blacks who voted for Proposition 8, I remind you of the laws that were recently on the books in many states that prohibited blacks from marrying whites. These laws have all been struck down because they were discriminatory. And laws banning gay marriage are equally discriminatory. Also I remind blacks that in voting for Proposition 8, you voted with those who have been enemies of the black community for many years and who will be enemies of the black community well into the future. This includes the Mormons. I challenge any black to step into a Mormon church. All the eyes will burn through you. And most likely, you will certainly be introduced to the cold chill of what they call 'Christian Love'.

I think everyone, on some level, realizes that there has long been a rift between the black community and the gay community. This rift at its best causes indifference to the struggles of the two groups. For instance, I remember the huge protests over the AIDs epidemic by groups such as ACT UP. Back in those days white gay males were dying in large numbers from AIDs. Now that AIDs is, statistically speaking, a black disease, the protests have shrunk tremendously. The bodies are still piling up, but the new battle cry of the white gay community is gay marriage.

At its worst the rift between the black and the gay communities causes outright hostility between the two communities. This is seen in many of the comments listed above. It is seen in white gay bars when alcohol and sheer numbers embolden some white gays to remind those of a darker shade that being gay does not exempt one from being racist. It is also seen in the ugliness that takes place regularly on the streets of cities across America. I have had friends who have been wounded by the brown fists of minority gay bashers.

No effort has been made to improve this rift between blacks and gays. And the finger pointing now taking place threatens to widen the chasm. Perhaps one day gay marriage will be back on the ballot. If and when that day comes it must be understood that elections are won not by expecting or demanding the support of disjointed groups. As Barack Obama showed, elections are won by making a concerted effort to bridge our differences and seek a common ground.

[david]

Blacks are misguided on this issue. But what can you do when black culture is so ingrained in it's churches? So it also doesn't help the issue to protest churches. I think black gays, latino gays and asian gays need to be given a stronger voice. They need to say "We are the people that this law is effecting" and that homosexuality crosses all races. It was a white campaign clear and simple. And it was a campaign that didn't even show any gays!

Prop 8 is clearly stupid. Marriage is not something that needs to be protected. Nor does marriage belong to christians or whoever. It belongs to people of all religions and that includes religions that accept and perform gay marriages. What prop 8 did was use christian ideology to define marriage according to THEIR rules and ignoring everyone else's. It was bible thumping equal rights.

[Joe McLackin]

Not being a jerk, I'm curious.

Are there any gays out there who agree that marriage should be between a man and a woman?

Is it possible?

[Adam]

It's funny that the LBGT community is preaching tolerance for themselves and hatred for others.

[april]

they say america is the land of the free n ect but where are our constutional rights??? where is our democracy>?? we allow religion to play the master status in our society, but i question why> why should a god detemine our choices as a nation. i dont think gay's need our approval to marry. when i decide to marry some day im not going to adk for any ones permission or opinion so why is that were makeing the gay's ask for ours>< i think our whole system is so currupted its time we teach reality and practice our rights times have changed and our system needs to revolve which these changes... its ironic to see the minorities discriminate again one another tho???