Arnold: Supreme Court should overturn Prop. 8

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger today expressed hope that the California Supreme Court would overturn Proposition 8, the ballot initiative that outlawed same-sex marriage. He also predicted that the 18,000 gay and lesbian couples who have already married would not be affected by the initiative.

"It's unfortunate, obviously, but it's not the end," Schwarzenegger said in an interview on CNN this morning. "I think that we will again maybe undo that, if the court is willing to do that, and then move forward from there and again lead in that area."

Read the rest of this story here.

--Michael Rothfeld and Victoria Kim

Comments

[Drew]

So... What's Arnold's position on other "non-standard" marriage possibilities, particularly polygamy. After all, there are islamic and mormon voters out there too, and wouldn't they bring lots of money into California if their "marriages" were recognized.

Has Arnold turned into a "girly man?"

[John]

Looks like the GOP will have to throw Arnold out of the party. Most of the people in the state voted for Prop 8 and 70% of Blacks did. Arnold is out of touch with the times and the party. Time to go Arnold.

[Edward]

The people voted!!!!!!
The will of the people states that marriage is between a man and a woman!
Arnold should stop pandering to the left to stay in his cushy little abode.
Take a good look Arnold california is going down the drain.
We the people of CA voted you in, perhaps it's time to vote you out!!!!
Oh I forgot we don't have a say anymore.

[Jeff]

I think the CA supreme court should over turn it. it was only out numbered by a few, they were probably the ones that were miss informed by those commercials, "falls advertisements". the fallen ones, plus you already have the State senate and Assembly members that have passed it, and now the Governor, they all stayed in office and did not get kicked out. trust me, we kicked out Gray Davis. They would have been out if we want them out

[Brad O.]

It is really nice to hear that Arnold believes in our democratic process. 52% of the people voted for and passed Proposition 8 and he's going to encourage some court to overturn it. That is ridiculous! This is not a civil rights issue... this is two groups with different ideals clashing. A homosexual union is different than a heterosexual union. That doesn't mean one is worse thant he other... they're just different. Logic shows that we assign different words when things are different from one another, otherwise I'd be driving my microwave down the street and cooking food with my motorcycle.

This is not by any means a civil rights movement. I am for gay rights and I do not look upon gays as second class citizens. The only people I heard calling gays second class citizens are themselves.

[Paul]

I have mixed emotions about this.

Although I respect the Governor for taking this stand and hope that the Court heeds his advice, WHERE WAS HE LAST WEEK? Why did he remain, largely, silent?

[Vance]

Arnold should be recalled. He's pretty much done everything for which Gray Davis was recalled. His recent comments about Proposition 8 and his wife shows that he has no core principles and no respect for the voters of California.

[TruthTellerAgain]

The sad thing is that these demonstrations are causing so many people who voted against proposition 8 to re-think their vote in light of the backlash by prop 8 opponents against churches. Talk about shooting themselves in the foot. I don't know what they are thinking. Their disrespectful reaction is the talk of the town. Our pre-election talk was about fairness and law. Our post-election reaction shows total disrespect for others and contempt for the law. Amazing!

[Tony S.]

This only shows how cowardly is the Governator and other similar politicians. He had the chance to enact a law to allow a law that he now claims he supports, but he wants the courts to do what he was afraid to do. This is the same as when he opposed agreeing to higher taxes, but he was fine with it if the legislators authorized the same taxes on their own for only him to sign the bill.

This is not leadership, it's cowardist behavior and shameful to all of California. The state S. Court cannot overturn the law. If they did by using provisions that are the same as in the U.S. Constitution, it will head straight to the federal S.Court where is will surely be overturned. The proponents of gay marriage best be careful of what you wish. Having the U.S. S.Court rule against you will likely settle the issue for all state courts. That is the problem in relying on courts to do the job that politicians fear to accomplish.

[Jeff]

Ok, so he seems to have changed his mind about gay marriage? Better late than never. But, it still feels good to have his support.

[Miriam]

Um, Arnold? The majority of people in your state voted AGAINST gay marriage. Did you not hear?

[Michael S. Cullen]

Prop 8: Just speculating: what if Obama had really campaigned in California? Might that not have changed the outcome re prop 8?
Michael S. Cullen
Berlin, Germany

[ted]

The USA constitution is in danger. Why is it that an increasing number of people feel at liberty to IGNORE our democratic form of government. The people have spoken and Prop. 8 passed. This is the second time the people have affirmed traditional marriage. If this case once again goes to the Supreme Court and that same progressive court ignores the will of the people then open revolution will be the result. The last time I checked the USA is not a police state or dictatorship. But when We The People are ignored repeatedly I fear a second civil war will erupt to depose those in power who trample upon our democratic form of government. Homosexual 'marriage' is NOT a civil rights issues; it is a behavioral issue and NOT protected in the Constitution of the United States nor the Bill of Rights.

[uncle_vito]

I think it is fine for gay folks to bind in a relationship with another person. Just do not call it marriage. By calling it marriage, you sully an ages old tradition between a man and a women.

On a more personal note, I wish gays would just 'cowboy up' and accept that Prop 8 passed and quit whining and running to the courts. They remind me of big babies.

I am dismayed that Obama won the presidency but I am not going to whine about it or do something innane like question his birth certificate. I am glad a black person won, but sincerely question his experience and socialist agenda.

So anyway, gays, you lost. Buck it up and move on.

Vito

[Rene' C.]

If the CA supreme court overturns the will of the people AGAIN the people should riot the court and get them thrown out on their butts. How dare this idiot of a governor say such a thing. What a bunch of fruitcakes that live in CA.

[Gaylene Bucher]

How many times must the people of California state they believe marriage should be between one man and one woman ? Same sex marriages have every right they had on November 4th except the act of marriage itself.
Arnold needs to stand with the choice California made and stop worring about everyone liking him . He needs respect and he has lost alot of respect with the decisions he is making with DMV and state workers forced days off. How about fining the representive who did not pass a budget but went on vacation?
Having all county and goverment cars in a pool and pick them up at the start of the work shift ?

[Ken]

To bad he didn't push his views a little harder last week before the election. Lets hope he in right on the overturn

[DANI]

To Drew, John and Edward....don't you have better things to worry about then gay people getting married? If you ask me you should probably be more concerned with the fact that global warming is going to kill us or maybe the fact that the economy is falling apart. GET IT THROUGH YOUR DOME!!!! it's none of any of our business who gets married! Concern yourself with recycling. Get a life...!

By the way I LOVE how the Mormons gave all this money to stop gay marriage because marriage is between 1 man and 1 women...not 1 man and 5 women and little girls under 18...not long ago they believed in that...Hypocrisy! This fight is far from over the courts will overturn this nonsense and all of us who actually CARE about others will smile...justice will prevail.

[Mike]

I think people could not be more misinformed about this whole situation. Have they not read the California Civil Code? Family Code 297.5 states clearly that the rights of same-sex couples are the same as those of heterosexual couples. Anyone that believes that there is inequality between gays and heterosexuals is simply misinformed.
And to Drew, you are also misinformed about Mormon beliefs. Please speak to a Mormon if you want to know if they practice polygamy, because they don't. You see, the problem with Americans is that most of us are either too busy, lazy, or believing in others to go out and research things for ourselves. What we need is an informed populus of California and less people throwing temper-tantrums because things didn't go their way.

[Ted]

Agreed. It's a simple definition that can be found in the dictionary. Why $80 and a vote? Speaking of motorcycles - owners of motorcycles and owners of cars have all the same rights; both can use our roads, buy gas, and carry passengers, but you can't take your Harley to the DMV and register it as a car, because it's not a car. Big deal! Same logic applies.Domestic Partners and Marrieds are equal unions under the law. They have the same rights, but neither has the right to legally change a widely held public meaning of a word. That's for Webster to interpret and decide, not government.

[Greg]

We have to believe in the governmental system. You also all have to realize that this was placed on the ballot without going the proper route to be placed there. False statements were made by the curches. I mean a lot of churches. Pastors told congregations they would lose funding if it passed. Not so at all. The only reason this passed was out of fear.

The churches and again I mean all of them should stay the heck our of politics. They have no business telling me what to believe or what to vote on. If a church member voted based on what they were told to do by their church they should have their voting rights removed. They did not vote for what they believed in and should have. Several people now are having second thoughts about the position they took because they were lied to by their pastor, deacon, or priest.

Get the churches out of politics. They never agree on anything else. Let them fight about who's god is better and when they agree they can tell me what to do.

[Anonymous]

Remember that blacks and whites were not permitted to marry early in the 20th century- this is absolutely a civil rights issue. Married people (with or without kids) have certain rights that gay couples do not have. You really have to look at it from the point of view of the minority group to try and understand the imbalance.

[Michael]

Arnold, didn't you say something to the effect of "the people have spoken and we should respect the will of the people" last Wednesday and now you advocate the Courts overturning the will of the (silent) majority because you and Marie don't like the outcome? Your comments make a mockery of the democratic process! It's amazing that as the State of California drowns in the wake of the failing economy that you are devoting time & attention to this matter, and encouraging those who engage in civil disobedience, religious persecution and intolerance to anyone who doesn't agree with their pro gay-rights agenda. Of course this is not the first time you've shown yourself to be out of touch with the voters; we all remember your failed ballot measures a few years back. Please turn you time & attention to fixing our economy without raping & pilliging our schools or hiking our sales tax; like that's going to help stimulate the economy.

[Morris1]

Just change your party affiliation and be done with it Arnold. You no longer represent any of the values the Republican party stands for. You are a typical politician who panders for votes and has no true opinion to call your own any longer. Go back to Hollyweird and disappear. Please!

[Jackie Capen]

The stunning display of fear and ignorance on the part of Prop 8's supporters boggles my mind. In the many years I have worked directly and supported indirectly the cause of LGBT rights, not one person who opposed marriage equality has ever been able to tell me how and why extending such rights to gay and lesbian couple is a threat to straight marriage (BTW--I am IN a straight marriage).
Proponents of Prop 8 relied on lies, pandering, and fear to promote their message of hate.
In an ostensibly free republican (this is the correct modification for those unfamiliar with civics) democracy, human rights cannot be suppressed by the uninformed will of an ignorant and fearful electorate. This issue is sure to make a very interesting--and unnecessary and expensive--journey as it is adjudicated at the state and federal levels.

[GreenMountainBoy]

Prop 8 SHOULD be overturned!

Just because the people voted for Prop 8 doesn't make it right.

Remember 80% of the population in the mid to late 1800's believed slavery was acceptable. Just because something is popular, doesn't mean its right.

[jeffrey]

I saw an interesting poster. It had a Nazi soldier looking to the sun with rows of tanks, planes, soldiers, and artillery behind him. The slogan? It is not Fascism when Liberals do it.

I, for one, do not welcome our liberal, gay, fascist, overlords.

[Zach]

Indeed, there's more to the US system of government than majority vote. Civil rights are NOT a popularity contest, and when that contest has been held in the past it's always been overturned. Inequality cannot be stamped with the people's seal of approval and be allowed because our system of government is based upon equality and that cannot be violated. Because of this, the people are subject to checks and balances like any other part of the government, being just as fallible. Those people who would say the Governor is disrespecting our democratic process ought to show some real respect and learn more about it themselves.

As for gay and straight marriages being different, that superficial difference does not determine how laws and contracts work. Government rights ought to be given to a gay couple, a black couple, and a Jewish couple equally because they are all citizens and the government must provide rights to everyone equally. It can no more refuse because it's never given them to gays than it could if it had somehow never happened to issue them previously to Jewish people. If you're going to say that we need to have separate gay marriages, Jewish marriages, or black marriages, you need a good reason and not just tradition why they cannot all be a part of the same institution. We don't let children or animals into it because they can't enter into the necessary contract. We don't let polygamists into it because that IS a different type of contract. But gays can consent to the standard two-party contract, so they should have that right!

[Zach]

PS. It's not about protesting the religion, but the religious institution's interference. Levying someone's soul against their vote is wrong. We have laws prohibiting churches from doing so if they don't want to pay taxes. Either they're in the system or out of it, but if they're in I, as a taxpayer, want them to pay like every other entity. Exist apart from Caesar or render unto him, but they cannot have it both ways.

[Rich J]

It is just amazing to me that there is not one intelligent comment from any of the proponents of Prop. 8. Somehow you think that stating that a microwave is not a car and registering a motorcycle as a car is somehow an intelligent comparison of gay marriage to heterosexual marriage.
There are too many "YES" people blogging here to name you all but in one fell swoop you are all bigoted, unintelligent and hateful people. Not one of you has made a single point that you thought up for yourself. You have simply repeated stale talking points and made threats if the courts overturn the proposition.
I want one person to tell me one awful thing that will be the outcome of allowing same-sex couples to marry.
Don't use the slippery slope argument. The slippery slope of voting away another group's rights is far worse than the idea that this will lead to a person marrying their pet.
Don't use that children will be taught it in schools. That was a lie from the start. The proposition says nothing about schools.
Don't say that "it is stated in the Bible". There are too many things in the Bible that are selectively ignored or their importance elevated. This is a public election, not a church doctrine issue.
Don't use the issue that churches will lose their tax exempt status. That was another lie. I actually believe they should lose it now for supporting a political cause. Especially the Knights of Columbus.
So come on you "YES" people, one thought out discussion about how the world will come to an end, your marriage is somehow diminished or that gay people are less than human and not deserved of equal rights as tax paying citizens. I'll anxiously await your thoughtful comments.

[Lynn]

Prop 8 is about civil liberties. I'm sure a majority of people during the civil rights movement voted for segregation. That doesn't mean the majority is correct in any way. This is just another civil rights issue. And anyway we aren't a complete democracy; we're a democratic republic. So sometimes majority loses, and they should, in cases like this. When can we finally understand what it means to be free of discrimination?

[Travis]

If it were left to people to vote on civil rights, would women have the right to vote yet? How about blacks? The right this is not always the popular thing.
This IS a civil rights issue. The fact that a segment of the population cannot have a right, or in this historical case, have had a right taken away, is appalling. What has happened is a part of the population of CA has been told is "you can't enter a contract (marriage) with someone else, we will let some people, but not gays." If we change gays to Jews, blacks, Asians, Mormons or Catholics, we have the same denial of rights. And it wasn't too many years ago interracial marriages were (finally) allowed.
What is amazing to me is the State of CA will let Erik and Lyle Menendez get married while serving a life sentence for the brutal murders of their parents, but a same sex couple that has been together for years, in sickness and in health, richer or poorer, as citizens that CONTRIBUTE to society and pay taxes like everyone else are denied that basic right and equal protection under the law like other married couples. Erik Menendez's marriage is favorable because he married a women, he's a convicted killer, but his is a "traditional marriage". Never mind the fact he can't have children with her, raise a family and keep the "traditional marriage" he was legally allowed to have!
Congratulations California, we go down in history as a state that has now taken away a civil right from the people!

[Christian Confederates]

The Bible says:

* "Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." Romans 1:22-27 (NIV)

* "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable." Leviticus 18:22 (NIV)

* "for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine" 1 Timothy 1:10 (NKJV)

* "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NIV)

Confess your sins to God and ask Jesus Christ to come into your life and He will forgive you. Then God wants you to turn away from homosexuality and, turn to his Son Jesus Christ. God wants you to separate and leave your homosexual "friends"... "I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people" 1 Corinthians 5:9 (NIV)

[Renee]

Arnold needs to go. We regret voting for him, but Bustamonte was, we thought, the worse choice. Arnold is no better, and has proven that he has contempt for democracy, and we Republican Conservatives. Bye bye, Arnold!

[Catholics4NOon8]

Are we in Utah?? Arkansas??
I used to think California was full of progressive people. It seems to me they are just like the rest of the repressed middle US. It must really suck for god to have created people that have such hatred and intolerance. And I guess now the blacks have found *their* dog to kick since they were always the ones that people use to kick. I'm so glad that I came from a family of christians that taught me to love everyone for who they were and that it will be up to god to judge who is good and who is evil. I see so many evil ones here. People need to let people live and let live. We are all created equal.

[Brent Cope]

I love the civili rights argument. It's so prevalent now that it's getting watered down. This is not a civil rights issue. It's a lifestyle choice issue. Don't you think that if it was a civil rights issue you wouldn't have so many blacks voting against gay marriage?

Ask any true African American whose descendants were slaves and see if it was as easy as making a choice, they would have chosen not to be black back in the 1800s.

I have met people who used to be gay, but have yet to meet someone who used to be black.

[LoveIsEqual]

Prop 8 is a Constitutional REVISION and as such Constitutional LAW REQUIRES that it go through the Legislature, whereupon it MUST have a 2/3 majority in BOTH houses before going to the Electorate for a vote. Once it goes to the Electorate it MUST have a 2/3 majority, NOT a simple 50 % +1 to pass.

Prop 8 backers VIOLATED the very Constitution they are trying to revise by back dooring this directly to the Electorate!!!!

That fact alone says that the Court's job is to overturn this illegal proposition!! If they fail to do so, then they would be violating the Constitution they swore to uphold!!

[AJ]

Was inter-racial marriage approved by popular vote? Was integrating schools approved by popular vote? ...No!... Courts are in place to protect the minority against the whim of the majority. Democracy is not mob rule! Civil rights issues should never be up for popular vote in the first place - otherwise they wouldn't be civil rights issues! ... People can be so ignorant.

[AJ King]

Just because being gay isn't as obvious as skin color doesn't mean it isn't real... Anyone who "used" to be gay and now claims not to be was never gay to begin with, or just pretends.

[johnhandey]

I find it funny that the la times calls the writers of prop 22 stupid because they made it a statute instead of making it an ammendment leaving the possibilty for the courts to overturn it. The la times says the writers put prop 22 in a primary election because it wouldnt have passed in an general election. Then the la times said there was no way for prop 8 to pass being 8 years past prop 22 on on a general election ballot when turnout is high. Where are we now? 8 years later prop 8 being a constitutional ammendment in a general election gets passed. Now the la times wants prop 8 to be overturned because it violates civil rights some how or is actually a revision of the constituion and not actually an ammendment. And you guys wonder why newspapers sales are down? http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-steinberg12-2008jul12,0,4554282.story

[Teresa]

People who voted for Proposition 8 should watch this commentary by Keith Olbermann. This is a question of Love between 2 human beings. People have no right to judge Love and how two people feel about each other.

This is plain and simple, discrimination against your fellow human race, your brothers and sisters, you own blood.

Marriage is a union of two people in love. If "traditional definitions" of marriage are still standing today, Barack Obama's parents would not have been allowed to marry each other in 1/3 of the states. My boyfriend and I will not be allowed to marry each other.

Be less judgemental, what is it to you? Let the love and happiness spread, give your fellow human being the option to experience what you can.

[ProudBeliever]

This entire debate sickens me.I am an open-minded, loving Christian man who believes that homosexual behavior is wrong in the eyes of God. I have friends and family members who are gay. I love them very much. I also voted yes on prop 8. I do not support prop 8 because I am hateful, bigoted or judgmental. I support prop 8 because marriage is between a man and a woman. My viewpoint has nothing to do with civil rights. I firmly believe that gay and lesbian couples should have the same benefits as heterosexual couples. I do not want my aunt being unable to visit her partner in the hospital. Again this is not about hate. Too may opponents of prop 8 point the finger at the close minded judgmental Christians. We are close minded because we have different beliefs than you? We are all entitled to have our own beliefs and to vote based upon them.

I and other supporters of Prop 8 are not trying to tell anyone to be homosexual or not. We are trying to preserve what we feel is God's ordained call on marriage. Seriously, what would be so difficult with getting other legislation passed that gives homosexual rights without using marriage as the deciding factor. Marriage has always been a religious sacrament, long before the government got involved. To now call for the church to stay out of it is itself hypocritical.

To reiterate, I have no animosity or ill will toward any homosexuals. Inferring that i do just because I voted for Prop 8 is bigoted and judgmental.

I pray for this country that we can truly become unified despite our difference of opinion and beliefs!

[daley]

What's the point of having an election if the losers are poor losers! Too bad you opposers have to swallow your medicine! We voted and won! Why, I voted McCain/Palin and we lost , now we have to put up with obama and his crappy politics. But we will have to accept and make the best of it! All you gay lezbies out there, I only know of two types of humans! Male and Female and there is no in-between! I do not and absoulutely will not teach my children the sicko practices what you people claim as a third kind. More like close encounters! Sorry but if you choose to practice un natural sex what you do behind closed doors go right ahead, But it really sickens me to see Joe and Bob, or Betty and Wanda kissing in a public parks or at a bus stops, or any other public place! Do that crap at home and keep it out of my kids schools! We are not trying to breed and spread this crap as some groovy natural thing! I'm a good Christioan with good moral up bringing! A marriage is only between a Man and a Woman! You people are selfish and imoral people only thinking of your selves. You are in great need of medical attention!

[daley]

Yep It's obviuos that censoreship has taken over even in a free scocity from a newspaper that claims freedom of the press! It's plain to see we are not a democracy any more and elections mean nothing. We voted on prop 8 to be passed and won! Now because voters in opposition are poor loosers they go running to mommy and scream "it's not fair!" Why do we have elections if the popular vote does not stand?? I voted McCain and we lost! Now we have to accept obama and get on with life! I'm a good christian with good moral values and teach my children what's right and wrong. Opposers of prop 8 are wrong!

[LoveIsEqual]

How many actually read what I said that Prop 8 is a REVISION and NOT an AMENDMENT? You can't just vote away people's rights based on a slim 50%+1 majority!!

To daley: Prop 8 or no Prop 8 you cannot stop a loving couple from expressing their love for each other!! If it is OK for a heterosexual couple to kiss in the park to express their love then it is absolutely JUST AS OK for a loving same sex couple to do the same thing!!

So does this mean that not only you are against marriage equality but you think we should be legally forced back into the closet as well??

It is not going to happen!!

[June]

I SUPPORT ARNOLD on this stand a EQUALITY FOR ALL .

HOW soon have you forget when your own race were being discriminated against...the time(s) of segregation--black s can't marry whites, catholics can't marry jews, mexicans were perceived as scums and low lives. NOW you turn around and discriminate against gays minority which once you were.

It's the RIGHT thing to do. I'm a straight person--which of many are shock by passing of Prop 8. the Right to legally bind 2 individuals that love each other is a crime. How can you deny and fight against love when there are more horrific crimes facing our country such as hate, gang, rape, murder, and war. These people have done us no harm, they just want what is rightfully. They don't harm or affect your in any way by being able to marry each other.

i thought Californians are better than this, please be the better person support equality and stop discrimination.

[Michael Berry]

So many straight couples get married outside of the church, running off to Vegas or Reno, and they are "married". You don't have to belong to a church to get married. So what is the problem with same-sex "marriages"?

[Mike]

Straight couples who get married outside the church, like running off to Reno or Vegas are "married". So what is the difference if same-sex couples did the same? How does that undermine any persons married in the church? I would understand if same-sex couples were hurting others, but this is so silly.

[Anonymous]

Registered domestic partners already have the same rights as married couples...

California Family Code
297.5. (a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights,
protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same
responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they
derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules,
government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources
of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.

[Mike]

To Anonymous....
Then what is the problem in calling domestic partners a "marriage"? In CA you can't be seperate AND be equal. Maybe we should change "marriages" to read domestic partners. Talk about the ole double standard. Call it like it is. Don't put labels just to (hopefully) cover what it really is.

[jeff muller]

OK people, the court is going to over turn it we all know it. This saying of "THE MAJORITY HAS SPOKEN " thing is not going to stand. that is what they got rid of prop 22 lol you silly people. that is what the court is there for, to protect the minority from the wrath of the majority. if the court is not allowed to do it then why again is the court taking it up. apparently they can, so get over it, so you came up the the majority has spoken thing, you are all pissed because you all know they are going to get rid of prop 8 and the next time you can fix it is in 2010. so get use to lol

[Anony-me]

To ProudChristian who stated: "We are trying to preserve what we feel is God's ordained call on marriage."

Therein lies the rub. Although I myself am straight, married and Christian, I understand the difference between marriage as ordained by God, and CIVIL marriage. I accept any church's right to deny marriage to a gay couple, based on their religious beliefs. I may not agree with it, but I accept it.

However, I cannot for the life of me understand why this should translate into the withholding of CIVIC rights. We are talking governmentally granted privileges, not "what is ordained by God." Civic marriages are NOT ordained by God. Atheists, agnostics, Wiccans and even Satanists are granted marriage rights. I should think you'd have a worse time with an unrepentant Satanist getting married, if your argument is simply that "God doesn't approve so neither do I"...so tell me, why can a Satanist get married in the eyes of the government but two loving, possibly even God-fearing people--who happen to both be of the same gender--cannot?

Even priests, who cannot marry according to Catholic doctrine, can leave the church and marry in a civil ceremony. We had such a priest. "God called me to marriage" he said. The church did not approve. Should he have been denied the right by the STATE, too?

All that, and yet if you do still cling to the religion argument, why not focus on all of the other biblically-defined abominations which are not turned into state law? For you bible quoters, that would include the fact that divorcing a person for any reason other than adultery, and remarrying, amounts to adultery and is punishable by death. Why is there not a law against divorce, and a death penalty for those who remarry? Because you don't agree that that biblical law still applies? So...some of the text is outdated, or subject to adjustment? Why won't people accept that text that they claim translates into a ban on homosexual behaviour might be outdated. Is it just because you think it's gross, but adultery is not? And what is gross about it anyway? Plenty of heterosexual couples do the same things which I obviously cannot elaborate upon. Should their marriages be revoked if they engage in the same type of physical intimacies that same-sex couples do?

And what about lobster, should it be outlawed?

When we read about Sharia we are mortified at the punishments meted out in the civic realm due to religious rule. A woman who has been raped can be stoned to DEATH because the religious text states she is now "an adulterer." I do feel that those who would do such a thing are showing a hatred towards their fellow (wo)man. We should be as mortified here when people are persecuted in the civil arena because their behavior does not fit in with some peoples' religious beliefs.

*Sigh* It's just so frustrating. Hearing the religious argument for passing a law denying CIVIL rights is precisely why some of us call it "hate." If you loved your fellow man you would not interfere with his rights in the civic realm.

[mofurg]

Hear, hear, Jeff Muller! The same people who smugly claim that the majority has spoken would be clamoring about the tyranny of the majority had they lost.

Or maybe not... they seem to exhibit a flawed understanding of American democracy as if it were a case of simple majority rule and don't see any possible "tyranny" in their faction's position. James Madison must be tired from rolling in his grave so often

[Mike]

To Anony-me
Great text; thanks for your slant, and you are very open-minded, being straight and in a church. I just hate the double standards and how the church will try and control, just because they believe a certain way. The blinders need to be taken off and we can all live in a peaceful world. HEY, it could happen.

[Stephen Stratton]

Two points. 1) The government should not be marrying anybody. Marriage seems to be a religious event. Let churches decide who they want to marry. The state can offer domestic partnerships to everyone, same sex or opposite sex partners, doesn't matter, all you get is a registered partnership. If someone fels a need to have a church sanctify their partnership then let them find one, but it should have no effect on whether the state recognizes it, as according to the constitution, all people are to be treated equally. 2) The constitution of California requires a 2/3 majority of the legislature to place an initiative on the ballot if it is going to change the basics of the constitution. There is no reason that this initiative should have been on the ballot to begin with. This is actually removing the rights of people and should have required the same 2/3 vote of the legislature before being placed there for voter approval or disapproval. Prop 8 will likely be overturned by the courts for that very reason.

[Mike]

I am not a religious person; brought up that way. And I am gay; born that way.
I know a lot of straight couples who married outside the church, and they are still "married". Gays just want to be equal. We don't need a church to recognize a legal marriage. And besides, who wants to pop the question, "Will you Domestic Partner me?" Not the same and church should be separate from State. I respect the right for any church to decide who they will allow in their church. There is room here for everyone to live and love and be happy.

[CB]

If Prop 8 is overturned then we have a flawed system. If the System is flawed then all those elected by it should be taken out of office as well. We Don't Want to Discriminate.

[Jesus]

One of the purposes of the courts is to protect minorities from the majority.
The court did that successfully when they legalized gay marriage.
This ballot initiative just shows how important our courts are in this country to protect minorities against majorities.

THERE ARE NO GODS.
A GOD DID NOT PUT HIS SIGNATURE ON THE BIBLE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST. HAS ANYONE EVER MET YOUR GOD? IS THERE ANY PROOF THAT YOUR GOD EXISTS? ARE THE STARVING BABIES IN AFRICA PROOF?

[Mike]

The crux of the matter lies in the definition of marriage. Marriage has always been defined as a union between a man and a woman. Under this definition, no rights are being taken away from gays because the rights do not exist, and never have.

Also, under this definition, all citizens have the right to marriage. After all, we all fit the definition of being a man or a woman.

Our system of government is full of instances where there are conditions placed on how rights may be exercised. For instance, we all have the right to free speech, so long as it does not defame or libel another person.

Marriage is the same. We all have the right to marry. But that right must be exercised in the proper framework.

[Jason]

The majority of Californians voted for Proposition 8,because they are good moral people who fear God.Homosexuality is a filthy abomination Romans 1:26-32 and it must be not recognized as secondary lifestyle.No one dares to overturn Prop 8,because it is voted by majority of citizens.This is America that constitutes government by the people,for the people,and of the people.Not government by the judges,of the judges,and for the judges who in favor of perverted groups like GLBT.Deal with it!No government dares to go against the will of majority.Prop 8 won,so it will stay.

[john]

There is no difference between heterosexual unions and homosexual unions--they can both procreate through their love for one another. Wait a minute!

[Henry]

Looks like it is about time that Arnold is recalled. Anytime an elected governor decides that the vote of the people should not be heeded, then that govenor no longer represents the people who put him/her in power.

I voted for Arnold in the election with great hope that he would make the changes our great state needs. He has struggled to do this and now he is making statements against principles of democracy. Obviously, my confidence in him was misplaced.

[guyfromla]

great way to show our kids.... if your cry cry cry.... you can have your way....

[Matthew]

I wish everyone would read an amazing essay by a woman named Virginia Ramey Mollenkott called Joyful Worship in the Midst of Danger. We don't want to take over your churches or your schools. We don't want to put your preacher in jail. We just want the right to be who we are, to love who we love. A lot of us believe in the same God you do. I do. Maybe He does hate me, but I don't hate Him.

I'm actually really tired of all this. I'm 26 so I can only hope that things get better before I'm ready to get married. And, yet, there's a part of me that isn't even worried about tomorrow no matter what the outcome is because I might be a second class citizen to my fellow Americans, I might be an abomination to them, and I might not be anyone they'd be interested in knowing, but I can't control what you think about me. I know you hate me, I know some of you even wish I could be thrown in prison. We all know it.

I also wish every single person who opposes same sex marriage would look up the current state of things for gay me in Iraq. Then I want you to close your eyes and imagine our laws being dictated by Leviticus . . . then imagine it's your child they find dead and butchered in the street.