Steve Lopez on Prop. 8 -- still doesn't get it

Steve Lopez, our intrepid columnist, took in to two Prop. 8 rallies in South-Central L.A. on Tuesday. One was in favor of the ballot measure, which would rewrite the state Constitution to outlaw same-sex marriage, and the other opposed Prop. 8.

While Steve found more people attending the first rally, that's the one that caused him to come up with a lot more questions:

Apostle Frederick K.C. Price stepped to the microphone.

"I believe and teach the Bible," he said, pausing briefly, as if nothing more needed to be said.

But he went on to quote Genesis, saying marriage is that which occurs between a man and a woman. To veer from that course, he suggested, would "jeopardize our children's future."

Off the top, I could name six dozen greater threats to children's futures than the prospect
of same-sex people committing themselves to each other in love, especially in South Los Angeles. With so many single parents and foster children, in fact, two-parent families might be worth encouraging.

Another clergyman, Bishop Frank Stewart of Zoe Christian Fellowship, said he was insulted by the suggestion that gay marriage is a civil rights issue. The real civil rights issues, he said, are the rights of parents (I didn't quite get his point), and his right to choose whom he can join in matrimony as a minister.

Pastor Beverly Crawford of Bible Enrichment Fellowship International clarified that in supporting Prop. 8 she wasn't saying no to gays, but "yes to God" and doing what "the Lord Jesus Christ" would do.

I always envy those who know precisely what Jesus would do. I'm wondering, though, if Pastor Crawford made the right call on that one.

So, how would Jesus vote?

--Veronique de Turenne

Photos: Los Angeles Times

Top photo: Students Joshua Lee, 6, left, and Josiah Wimbely, 6, wave flags as a group of ministers supporting Prop. 8 met at Crenshaw Christian Center on Vermont Avenue to rally support for their cause. Credit: Bob Chamberlin / Los Angeles Times

Bottom photo: The Rev. Vanessa Mackenzie speaks at a news conference in opposition to Prop. 8. Mackenzie was one of three ministers who spoke against the proposition at the Lucy Florence Cultural Center in Los Angeles. Credit: Spencer Weiner / Los Angeles Times

 

Comments

[Michael Gran]

I contend that the promiscuity and drug use in the gay community that led to the AIDS crisis of the 1980s and 1990s was caused in part by Christian society's inability to allow for shades of grey among those groups that it condemns.

If living is a committed relationship with a gay partner is equally as abhorrent as having uncommitted sex with multiple parners, there is no incentive to chose one over the other. If you will be hated either way, why not take the easy path?

Allowing for gay marriage, even if you believe it to be unbiblical and wrong, incentivizes monogamy in the gay community, reduces disease, increases stability, reduces drug use, and will make life better for all, Christians included.

[Susan]

Jesus would remind people gently that fornication, adultery, homosexuality and bestiality are all condemned by God. I did not say that the people are condemned (they can stop doing their sins and ask forgiveness), just the wickedness that they are doing. Jesus would harken back to Sodom and Gomorrah, reminding us that one of the reasons that God rained down burning sulfur on those cities was because of rampant homosexuality (men even tried to force themselves on angels!) This is all in the Bible for ANYONE to read for themselves, so the question REALLY is: Do we want to obey God's will or do we not? The argument is not with Christians; it is obeying or disobeying God. Finally, note that 1 Corinthians 6:9 says that fornicators and homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God (unless they change their ways). Is anyone so rebellious to God's ways that--having been warned--they still choose do their sexual sins and choose a hellish future after death? God loves us, be He hates sin and will not bear with it indefinitely. He gives us time to change, but not forever. (All comments above are substantiated by God's word, in print for everyone to read.)

[Invariant Memory]

Re: 'Pastor Beverly Crawford of Bible Enrichment Fellowship International clarified that in supporting Prop. 8 she wasn't saying no to gays, but "yes to God"'

Uh-huh. I am reminded of how the KKK argued they were not anti-black, just pro-white. The Yes on 8 folks can dress up their hatred of gay people in all the religious homilies they want, but their bigotry is still there for all to see. Vote No on 8!

[John D]

Really? Steve Lopez is against Prop 8? Now, THAT's news. Haven't read his report from the rallies yet, but he'll no doubt bring his usual sense of fairness and introspection to bear.

[David Dement]

No on 8!

Why shouldn't gays have the opportunity to be as miserable as the rest of us?

[aggie]

I think anyone with a brain sees the hypocrisy and twisted logic that goes into firing a priest because he is voting NO on prop 8 and then transferring, covering up and enabling hundreds of priests to molest innocent children. This type of "religion" is destructive, devisive and most of all, immoral. I would not be surprised if agnostics beome an entire voting block over the next two elections, because of these types of issues.

How do we "restore" marriage? Some things come to mind. Consume less and spend more time with the kids and spouse. Do not get married unless you do some deep soul searching about the awesome responsibility it is to start a family. Have an unrelenting committment to the well-being of spouse and children. Stop drinking, snorting, having affairs and watching porn on the internet. Help with laundry and the kids homework. Get a job. Admit mistakes and do something about them. Ok....the list is ndless. The 50% divorce rate, and the dysfunction is not the fault of gay folks....be honest.

[J. Woode]

One person may not have a right that another person can not have.

[Billy Bob]

You're reading a translated, English version of Corinthians 6:9. If you were to stop taking passages at face value and consider the context behind said passages, you'd see that Sodom was no more about homosexuals than it was about male rapists who committed extreme sin. Example: Prison rape happens all the time...does that mean that rapists are homosexual?

Similarly, the Cor. 6:9 translations of the terms "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" do not have a direct English equivalent, which is why it lead to a vague (and somewhat inaccurate) English translation into the word "homosexual". Perhaps a more correct term could be "perverse offender", but then again, such people aren't only homosexuals, are they?

If you decide that love is equivalent to sex, then you've already misunderstood.

[J. Woode]

One person can not have a right that another person can not have.

[josh]

Im wary of anyone who "knows" the will of god. Is this based on a literal interpretation of a writing 4000 years ago? Translated through a few different languages and cultures, subject to the whims of statesmen and clergy through history, and then interpreted by a person who "knows" the will of god? Tell me how marginalizing a group of people who did not choose their sexual orientation any more than you did secure family values? Im not sure I understand how gay marriage is going to degrade society. Could you please explain?

[JJ Lewis]

First of all, let's not forget that churches said it was a sin for interracial couples to marry not that long ago. In fact, it was still illegal for blacks and whites to marry in 1998. YES I SAID 1998. I can't believe that a community who has been discriminated against in so many ways is now passing judgement and trying to make laws to ban marriage for someone who is different than they are. I am not a christian, muslim,jew, scientologist, mormon or anything of the like. I am however in favor of equal rights between all religions. Passing Proposition 8 because of religious beliefs is a violation against the constitution which was founded by people who were fleeing religious persecution. If we all had to live by laws that were decided on because of religious beliefs than all americans would be living by christian laws! Why should I have to live my life with less civil rights than african american christians who are voting yes on 8? And, when did the african american community decide it was ok to discriminate against the gay community? Does this then mean we should go back to segregation? Passing Proposition 8 is DEFINATELY a step back towards segregation! If I were African American or a Christian I would either vote NO or undecided on Proposition 8 because at least I could sleep at night knowing that some other fellowship wasn't creating a law against my civil rights just because I was different. WAKE UP PEOPLE! Proposition 8 is wrong and you should stand behind the gay community as they have stood behind you!

[JJ Lewis]

I meant to say stood behind you not standed behind you haha
im ANGRY

[Eli]

Exodus 21:7-10 says men can sell their daughters into slavery

Clothing made of more than one type of fabric (e.g. nylon stockings) fare no better:

"Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee" (Leviticus 19:19).

Men aren't allowed to trim their beards or shave their heads (Leviticus 21:5)

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination." (Leviticus 11:11)

"Whatever in the water does not have fins or scales; that shall be an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:12)

I know you all eat shellfish and ware poly-cotton blends. So do you really want to take the bible for its word?

[cctv]

What Jesus does will be in accordance to God's will. For God detests homosexuality, it is obvious and certain what Jesus will do. Homosexuality is a sin, a wickedness of men. Do not be deceived. Repent now and turn to Jesus while you still can.

[lurch]

Gays have the exact same rights as heterosexuals. They can marry one person of the opposite sex. If the acid test to allow marriage is "love" than all kinds of inappropriate marriages must be allowed. Gay marriages cannot point to the long history of benefits to society that heterosexual marriages can. It is at best a social experiment with children caught in the middle. Not all forms of sexual expression are equivalent or worthy of societal approval.

[Patrick]

The chilling aspect of Proposition 8 isn't so much the part that denies a segment of our population equal rights, even if people disagree with them (think mixed race marriages in the 1950s), but it is enshrining religious beliefs into laws.

That's one of the things the Founding Fathers didn't want to see---well, people can make their own judgments about what they intended. If 90% of the churches are opposed to same-sex marriage, and 10% of the churches support it---why should, what is essentially a law violating people's religious freedom, be considered "good law?"

The anti-marriage/Prop 8 folks claim that the simplicity of the Constitutional Amendment means it's okay. "Only 14 words!" I can think of Laws we could write, that would be simple, and wrong. "No Blacks shall be allowed to vote in the State of California." Or "No marriage between mixed races shall be recognized in the State of California." Or "Marriages between people of different religions shall be void in the State of California."

It's easy to make a law against people you "ain't", and harder to stand up for a minority. Proposition 8 is BAD LAW and it's law driven by religious institutions to put into law their specific religious beliefs. (Mormon Church, Catholic Church, Evangelical churches.)

What's next? A law forbidding the working on Sunday? Laws forbidding the sale of alcohol? Laws forbidding the sale of books and literature condemning certain religions? Laws against the cartoon portrayal of religious figures?

Even if you disagree with homosexuality, people have to realize the ultimate unfairness of this Proposition. It's not law based on expanding rights, but on restricting them to a select group of people. Nice if you're that group of people, but not so nice if you're not.

Don't vote for this proposition thinking that real people and real families won't be affected. Don't vote for this proposition. Don't vote for Prop 8.

[john]

It is unfortunately easy for me to believe there are still people out there who seem unable to live and exist in peace without foisting their moral dictates on others. ie. Osama bin Laden or the bigots in favor of Prop 8 which shouldn't even be an issue in this day and age.

[P J Evans]

I wish people would stop trying to tell God what to do.
I think that those who keep telling us that Jesus condemns [fill in blank] would read the commandments he gave - they're in the first four books of the New Testament, the ones they don't seem to have read - and try following them, instead of trying to make us follow the narrow, twisted views of their own churches.
(*Don't* tell us how much Jesus loves us, if you're also going to tell us we're condemned for not believing like you.)

[Johan]

Susan,

How Christ-like is it to force your beliefs, by law, on people who do not share them?

How Christ-like is it to blindly accept the narrow interpretations of scripture given to you by others without digging deeper for truth?

How Christ-like is it of you to sit in judgement on two people in a loving and committed relationship simply because you fear what it is you think they do and you make no attempt to understand it?

If you support Prop 8 on religious grounds, you are applying your cultural understandings to an English translation of ancient Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic writings. Have you ever thought about the social, political, and economic changes that human civilization has experienced over just the last 100 years? Magnify that on a scale of 2000+ years, and focus in on a part of the world and a culture that is foreign to you, and you may begin to understand how much historical and cultural context is missing from the Biblical interpretations you've been given.

Its not my responsibility or my place to tell you how to interpret the scriptures behind our shared religious tradition (I too am a Christian, Susan...), nor would it be appropriate for either of us to condemn the other's faith. Instead, I urge you to study the matter, from a variety of different sources, with a variety of different viewpoints, using the intelligence that God clearly gifted you with. Come to a conclusion yourself, or keep an open mind, but please please please stop regurgitating arguments that were so clearly spoon fed to you by others.

[Mateo]

You are blaming the straight conservatives for the promiscuity and the AIDS epidemic? What?

Hollywood and the media always try to portray this committed, monogomous gay couple. The public is refusing to buy off on this image being forced on us because we know it is not a true representation of the gay community. The gay culture, on the whole, is not about committed, monogomous relationships and you cannot blame the stright, conservatives for this reality.

Do you (and Hollywood and the media) think we are a bunch of idiots (in addition to being bigots, hatemongerers and religious fanatics)?

[josh]

"What Jesus does will be in accordance to God's will". You want to have a law based on what Jesus did. Jesus is one figure out of thousands in ancient stories. Why would you want to have laws based on this one figure? Couldnt I say that "whatever Ogun (Yoruban god) does is the will of god"?
Im not going to call you ignorant because that would excite your sense of martyrdom, but I am going to say that you are making a grave mistake in taking a literal translation of a spiritual work. If someone in our modern society started righteously asserting that Ogun is god and we must burn wood and sacrifice a goat on the third full moon of the year and all who didnt would face the wrath of Ogun because the script says, we would lock him up. Your assertion of Jesus being the only is just as far fetched.
You dont have to be religious to be morally coherent. In fact, taking religion in the literal way that you do skews moral coherency and logic. Religion can be a great propaganda tool when its used in this way.

I still want a good answer why gay marriage will degrade human society.

[Stephanie]

I may not believe in homosexuality but who are we to tell people how they should live their lives. What they do is between them and God, not the government.

I am quite sure that if you opened the closet of some of these high and mighty bible thumpers, you will find plenty of skeletons.

[mike]

"Say 'Yes to God'"? If you really want to say Yes to God, let's move to strike down the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution which prohibits slavery. After all, slavery is allowable in the Bible!

Let's see how many african-american bible thumpers say Yes to God and jump on THAT bandwagon.

[mike]

"Say 'Yes to God'"? If you really want to say Yes to God, let's move to strike down the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution which prohibits slavery. After all, slavery is allowable in the Bible!

Let's see how many african-american bible thumpers say Yes to God and jump on THAT bandwagon.

[Johan]

Mateo,

You said: "The gay culture, on the whole, is not about committed, monogomous relationships and you cannot blame the stright, conservatives for this reality."

If that's the case, then for what other purpose would we be asking for the equal recognition of our committed, monogamous relationships? That's what marriage is, and thousands of us have availed ourselves of the right since the Court's decision to uphold the state constitution back in May.

Also, since you're such an expert on the gay community, you've obviously taken much time to study it. Please feel free to share your research, with citations from papers published and studies conducted by your peers in the field.

Not that I expect you to provide any evidence to back up your bigotry. How presumptuous!