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Backing Prop. 8 in enemy territory

St. Victor's Catholic Church is considered fairly liberal -- and that makes sense given its location in the heart of West Hollywood. But with the ballot measure on gay marriage in California about to be voted on, the church finds itself in the center of controversy. According to WeHo News, some members are vocal about opposition to same-sex unions:

Known for its feeding of the homeless, which causes the surrounding neighborhood problems with those congregants, as well as its long-time pro-life stance in one of the most pro-choice cities in America, this past weekend found parishioners at tables in front of the church disseminating anti-gay marriage literature. They did so on National Coming Out Day, enraging one gay neighbor. Sam Borelli, that neighbor, reported his outrage over the symbolism represented by allowing such a campaign on a church’s property, especially a church with a reputation for its openness to gays and that proclaims on its website."

St Victor's website is indeed very welcoming: "We seek to follow the Lord and live the good news--the gospel--according to our ancient Catholic tradition. We welcome all, regardless of race, nationality, gender, socio-economic class or sexual orientation. We believe in the power of the gospel to transform our lives and society around us, even in the most cosmopolitan of settings. We are a city on a hill. We are the light of the world. We are the salt of the earth."

--Shelby Grad

 
Comments () | Archives (103)

All I've got to say on the subject is this....

Straight people can marry. Whether they're stupid or smart.

Gay people should be able to marry as well. Whether they're stupid or smart.

I've seen a lot of straight marriages and relationships fail and I've seen a lot sustain.

I've also seen a lot of gay relationships fail and I've seen a lot of those sustain.

Get a grip. Prop 8 is a vote for the government to take away the right of an entire group to make an acknowledged public commitment to someone they love and cherish.... no matter how long it lasts.

And bottom line---- Straight and gays both make the same mistakes and triumphs when it comes to marriage. Everyone deserves the opportunity to be with who they love.
Parents - Not all gay people are child predators. Just like how not all straight people are child predators.

This is the 21st century. We've had a couple hundred years to figure this out. Read the Preamble. Equality for everyone. Our objectives as a nation should never, ever forget that.

To the last two statements on Prop 8...(Amberly - [my comments addressed to you are after this first paragraph] and "I VOTE NO"... THe whole approach on the NO on Prop 8 campaign is about tolerance and rights, etc... right? Well, then you talk about how people who are voting YES on prop 8 are brain-washed, etc. But by your comments it just goes to show your ignorance and lack of tolerance. I think it is important to respet others beliefs and opinions, but to name call is just childish and uncalled for.

More importantly, the REASONS why I am voting YES is because I will lose rights as a citizen if NO on Prop 8 passes. People in domestic partnerships and civil unions do not.

How is this so? well first people who are in civil unions will only lose the right to say they are married. According to the California Family Code 297.5 civil unioins / domestic partners "have the same rights, protections, and benefits of married spouses". There it is... in plain english and on paper. Now let's look at the other side of things. If it goes NO, then I will lose my right as a parent to say what my children can and can't learn at school. Let me further explain... If NO on Prop 8 passes... then it is taking away rights of the general population. For instance, if it passes NO, then kids in kindergaten will have to be taught about gay marriages, they will not have a choice, where as if it passes as YES, everyone still retains their rights and if they want to learn about it, they can do so on their own free will, time, and expense.

You know we talk about rights, and it is funny that teachers who don't teach gay marriage in schools (in Mass.) they will get thrown in jail. I mean if that isn't an example of people's ideals being thrown on people and force fed... I don't know what is.


That is why it is so important to vote YES on Prop 8. I strongly encourage you all to vote YES on Prop 8

To the last two statements on Prop 8...(Amberly - [my comments addressed to you are after this first paragraph] and "I VOTE NO"... THe whole approach on the NO on Prop 8 campaign is about tolerance and rights, etc... right? Well, then you talk about how people who are voting YES on prop 8 are brain-washed, etc. But by your comments it just goes to show your ignorance and lack of tolerance. I think it is important to respet others beliefs and opinions, but to name call is just childish and uncalled for.

More importantly, the REASONS why I am voting YES is because I will lose rights as a citizen if NO on Prop 8 passes. People in domestic partnerships and civil unions do not.

How is this so? well first people who are in civil unions will only lose the right to say they are married. According to the California Family Code 297.5 civil unioins / domestic partners "have the same rights, protections, and benefits of married spouses". There it is... in plain english and on paper. Now let's look at the other side of things. If it goes NO, then I will lose my right as a parent to say what my children can and can't learn at school. Let me further explain... If NO on Prop 8 passes... then it is taking away rights of the general population. For instance, if it passes NO, then kids in kindergaten will have to be taught about gay marriages, they will not have a choice, where as if it passes as YES, everyone still retains their rights and if they want to learn about it, they can do so on their own free will, time, and expense.

You know we talk about rights, and it is funny that teachers who don't teach gay marriage in schools (in Mass.) they will get thrown in jail. I mean if that isn't an example of people's ideals being thrown on people and force fed... I don't know what is.


That is why it is so important to vote YES on Prop 8. I strongly encourage you all to vote YES on Prop 8

I am saddened by all that I am reading on this website. If we are all created equal and have the same rights, then all of us should adhere to civil unions. A "marriage," as it is defined, can remain a religious institution - the only source of response from supporters of this proposition - much like a baptism. It is horrible that churchs are not given the right to decide who they wish to marry. If marriage is simply symbolic of religious affiliation, then ANY church should be able to decide who they wed. This proposition limits this right.

I hate that people in this country are so blinded by things such as religion that have nothing to do with the "good" of society. Wars are waged, people die and are discriminated against, every single day on the basis of words written by MEN thousands of years ago. What do these people have to do with current social contexts? NOTHING. People in this nation need to become educated and come to understand that this is not a Biblical time. We have come a long way from Adam and Eve and Jesus ... The mere notion of this proposition is to make a change in the way our constitution is written, yet so many religious people are unable to come to grips with the fact that the Bible may need some revisions as well.

anyone and everyone who votes yes on prop 8 is ignorant, cowardly and selfish. why do these people believe that they should have any control over the happiness of another person? do they really think that their close minded opinion matters? and why wouldn't people want homosexuality to be taught in schools? it is a lifestyle that has always existed and will always exist. i can't imagine ever wanting to keep my children from forming their own opinions and leading their own lives. america is one of the greatest nations because of all its opportunities for education, i find it odd anyone would want to take that away from their children. definitely not the american way.

to all of you who vote yes on prop 8: GET A CLUE!!!!!!

To those who voted YES on Prop 8:


All I have to say is: Please put yourself in the thousands of gay couples' situation. Just take a minute to think about how you would feel to have your marriage denied. Why did you get married to your husband or wife in the first place? For rights? I doubt it. You probably got married out of LOVE. Gay couples aren't merely looking to obtain rights, they want to take that step to ultimately symbolize their love for each other. Gay people are human with the same emotions, goals, and love straight people have. They may not be exactly the same as you but does that really justify placing a ban on them? The one sole thing that these two groups, gay and straight, have in common is love.

I'm not trying to force you to change your mind. I doubt that I would be able to anyway. But I am simply asking you to put yourself in their situation.

Thankfully, Obama is our new president. Change will come.

This is a response to the comment posted by Gerri:
I am voting for Prop 8 because government should not take away the right of children to a mother and father. I understand that not every child has a mother and father for a variety of reasons, but those are due to choices and circumstance, not laws. It is not right for the government to tell future generations that they do not have the right to the relationships that all past generations have had. I am unaware of other anytime in recorded history when such a right has been denied by government decree.

The government is not taking away rights to heterosexual marriage. Rather, had Prop 8 been defeated, it would be reinstating those rights that homosexuals DESERVE, that homosexuals should be able to choose who they want to marry. Let's take this scenario in which a homosexual male marries a woman, and they have children. It's like you (as a heterosexual) marrying a person that you don't really want to at all, but have to for the sake of having someone to be there for you. Now, how could that possibly constitute a happy household, when the homosexual male is almost disappointed by his marriage because this woman isn't really the person he wanted to marry? This country has always put great stake in individuals being able to express themselves and not deny who they are. Isn't Prop 8 denying just that? Homosexuals can't help their sexual preference towards those of the same gender, just as heterosexuals can't help their sexual preference toward those of a different gender.

The only reason that we have this taboo against homosexuals is because they are different from the majority of the population. Now, what if the situation was reversed, and the majority of people were homosexual, and heterosexuals made up the minority? Heterosexuals would want to marry those of the opposite sex, but homosexuals could find that repulsive and thus BAN their right do so. And we would have a such pseudo-Prop 8. However, out Constitution clearly states that we should not prohibit a right simply based on the fact that it is repulsive to some. That is one of the basic themes of our Constition, and the Supreme Court should see fit to overthrow Proposition 8.

As for those who would bring religion into this discussion, I myself am Catholic and pride myself on it. However, our constitution, again, has an amendment that states that there must be a separation of church and state. Therefore, while individuals may have their own opinions, religion has no place in the government/law domain and therefore should not be a consideration of instating a law banning gay marriage.

Certainly, gays have civil unions, but as they are US citizens, they should enjoy their full rights and get the same benefits of marriage as heterosexual couples get. The mere fact that their union is different is insufficient for the government to exclude them from enjoying the same rights as other citizens.

Posting it at this time, i have seen news that Prop 8 has indeed passed. This is a severe tragedy for California. I was extremely proud of this state previously for allowing gay marriage, because it signaled the idea that we were getting to a place where we were giving people back those rights that were unduly taken away from them. However, with this ban now in place, how can we really say that this state has progressed. We have time and time again denied these rights. We should not allow this trend to continue. This slippery slope of TAKING RIGHTS away from people is not what the Constitution and not what this country is built on.

If we truly want to consider ourselves a democracy and even pride ourselves as such on the international level, we should not hypocritically deny citizens their rights from within.

In the recent article:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-gaymarriage6-2008nov06,0,2331815.story

It says:

“"This has been a moral battle," said Ellen Smedley, 34, a member of the Mormon Church and a mother of five who worked on the campaign. "We aren't trying to change anything that homosexual couples believe or want -- it doesn't change anything that they're allowed to do already. It's defining marriage. . . . Marriage is a man and a woman establishing a family unit."

Readers should NOT believe what Ellen Smedley says. It is the agenda of the Mormon Church to absolutely take away what homosexual couples believe or want. First, the Mormons will argue all they want to do is define marriage between a man and a woman as a “family unit”. The next step will be to argue that a same sex relationship is not a “family unit” and therefore two men should not be able to adopt or raise children together.

All I have to say is that PROP 8 has passes =D, so stop your crying and accept the loss, because the majority of Californian's voted to preserve marriage the way it was when it was written in the bible! :@

People who vote "no" on 8 want the "yes" on 8 people to justify their beliefs with science or controlled studies or things like that.

The truth is that we can't and we don't have to. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Homosexual behavior is wrong. It should not be legalized. Legalizing immoral behavior does not make anyone happy and is definitely not best for society in the long run. The best examples of that for us are in the scriptures. Civilizations were wiped out for large-scale departures from God's commandments.

As far as physical proof goes, in the only other state in the United States that legalized gay marriage (MA), gay marriage was taught in schools. That's the only real comparison to draw from and so it's a legitimate argument that it would be taught in schools.

What further validates that argument is that a class in San Fransisco was taken to a gay marriage as a field trip without the parents knowing.

Schools may not be "required" to teach anything about marriage, but that doesn't mean that they won't. They already are.

Gerri | October 19, 2008 at 08:08 PM said:

"we live in a democracy".

Yes, we do. And the democracy has spoken.

ONE of the things we should be talking about, rather than trying to redefine the word "marriage" (and thereby reframe what is really an argument about affirmation, as an argument about "civil rights"), is this: Are there tax benefits that exist for marriage folks, that shouldn'exist at all? Are we giving certain "rights" only to married people, that perhaps should be equally available to single people as well, for instance? (I personally don't believe all the rights in question apply to this, but it sure seems that some do).

Yes on 8 = Yes on HATE. No equality, no peace. Different but equal is not equal. In 1948, when California legalized interracial marriages, everyone said it would destroy the institution of marriage. It didn't, and no one was allowed to vote against the minority. (For it surely would have failed.) Gay marriage will not destroy the institution. Many gay people that are now married have children, unlike the barren straight couples talking about procreation. This will be settled in the courts, not the cathederal. You should have used Mormon money to do something positive.

I'm sorry, but calling someone who disagrees with you 'intolerant' and 'hateful' is just unacceptable. I have seen more hate-speech and intolerance. violence and intimidation coming from the supporters of gay marriage than I EVER have from those who support traditional marriage. Just because you call someone names doesn't mean name-calling is acceptable, nor does it mean that the names you're calling them aren't out in left field and just stupidly wrong.

Just because you use terms like "Equality for All" and "Civil Rights" doesn't mean you have even the slightest clue as to what these terms really mean, particularly as they relate to the very difficult struggles of racial and ethnic minorities for simple basic human rights and civil justice in this country. It angers me to see their meaning disrespected by associating them with this push for the full and unfettered acceptance of the gay lifestyle. No one I know believes for a split second that the "No on 8" boycotts and all the intimidation have anything to do with trying to stop the very real discrimination that does still exist out there for gays and lesbians. We know this, and it truly is a shameful national tragedy that it exists, but that isn't even remotely what's going on here.

How DARE you paint swastikas on churches or deface anyone's personal property the way some of the supporters of gay marriage have! That smacks of cross-burning to me, like they did in the old South: a form of intimidation that should NEVER be tolerated. And forcing someone out of their job because they disagree with you? Threatening someone's business by suing them because they won't do what you want? No. Ripping a cross out of an elderly woman's hand? Beating up someone carrying signs you disagree with? That's just not right. No one who does that deserves anything but jail.

Attacking the Mormon church for the gay marriage ban in California is totally and completely ridiculous! I personally contributed as much money, time and effort as I possibly could toward the passage of Prop 8, and I spent hours helping organize the GOTV effort to pass this ballot measure on election day. And I'm not Mormon. I just didn't like a few judges thinking they can change the laws of this state by judicial caveat rather than the consent of the governed. Having said that, I'll also tell you that I will never buy a pair of Levis again because they contributed to the efforts to oppose Prop 8, nor will l ever buy an Apple Computer or product, and I even had my internet, phone, and cable TV services pulled from AT&T because they supported the efforts to oppose Prop 8. These, along with my vote, are my personal forms of protest against gay marriage. But as you can see, I'm not yelling at anyone, marching in the streets, pushing anyone around, calling anyone names, or threatening anyone's job, though I will work as hard as I possibly can to recall the State Supreme Court Justices who decided to allow gay marriage before this election. That was just stupid. Look at all the trouble it's caused for the same-sex couples who were allowed to 'marry' during this interim period? That was shameful. They never should have been put through this, and the court needs to fix this by immediately providing a way for these couples to transition their 'marriages' to legal domestic partnerships so their rights are protected.

I'm just fed up with all the intimidation and bullying. And by the way, even if people DID vote for and support this ballot initiative for religious reason, that is their Constitutional right and no one has the right to intimidate them out of it or to persecute them for it!

Studies have shown that children need a Mother and a Father to grow up in a healthy environment.
I also feel that Democracy is at stake, to think you can overturn the peoples vote is going against Democracy which should not be allowed. This is very wrong!

At its core marriage is a contract between man and women in the presence of God. This has been established since the beginning of judaism. Marriage is a religious practice evolved into a legal contract between a man and a women currently. However, in America Gays and Lesbians are still citizens and still deserve rights. The same rights as married men & women. The definition of marriage excludes gay and lesbians. Rather then changing what the word means / symbolizes, we need to change the laws. Gays should be entitled to the same rights, however trying to change a religious practice to be included is wrong. Our system is not always fair, but as a nation we can make it fair. Civil rights activists for gay rights will win much more support when they aim away from the word marriage and demand the same rights, not the same title.

I am very angry that Jerry" Moonbeam" Brown is urging to let Prop.8, take affect? How dare he even voice this.Where is "Equality for All" and "Civil Rights". What are the steps to remove him as California's Att. Gen. The people behind yes on prop.8 used
scare tactics to intimidate people on what their children would be taught and so
forth. Jerry Brown is from a era that he should know better. Didn't we tolerate him and his" Moonbeam" self!

it's absolutely mindblowing how ignorant all these yes on 8 posters are.

get your noses out of the bible and into a book on the U.S. CONSTITUTION.

it is unconstitutional to take away the rights of any american.

we are all created equal under the law and are entitled to the same exact rights.

it wouldn't matter if every person in california voted yes -- it's UNCONSTITUTIONAL and cannot stand.


the propostion will be overturned in a few weeks.

oh, what studies Kathy M. ?

church studies ?

you don't know what you're talking about.

There is nothing religious conservatives want so much as somebody to feel automatically better than.

We allow same-sex marriage because gays claim to be an oppressed minority. What next, polygamy, incest, NAMBLA? Is there no end in sight?

"The certainty and finality" is already been made clear Mr Moonbean! The people of California have voted in favor of marriage being between a man and a woman now for the second time with Proposition 8 in November 2008 and Proposition 22 in the year 2000.
Califiornia's Highest Court already saw to it that we - the people - had to vote this second time and we are Constitutionally protected from Double Jeopardy! We need not go into this any further or any longer. There is nothing religious about marriage - the conception of children is about NATURE and there seems to be a slight misunderstanding about what a heterosexual couple does with ease that a homosexual couple has never been able to nor ever will do. Its about child rearing. There is nothing religious about child rearing - that is glorious!!
But dont take my words please take the words of the talented gay rockstar Elton John. He said it himself "My partner and I are in a civil partnership - gays dont marry, their partnership is a civil bond - I dont want to be married! Heterosexual couples, they marry." It is clear to EltonJohn that Prop 8 inno way shape or form subtracts from gays so-called rights! Homosexual couples get to do as they please as they have since time immemorial at no loss at all at their rights -- So stop the complaining!
The sanctity of marriage together with the responsibility of marriage is upon heterosexual couples to commit and marry in love BUT ALSO conceive, bear, nurture, raise, educate, feed, house, clothe and rear a PROCEEDING generation of kids who will grow to be healthy, happy, well adjusted, intelligent, emotionally and physically strong and eventually, contributing Americans. That is a technicality I think that only the California Supreme Courts can overlook!
Its about nature, good Justices, marriage and good old fashioned making babies goes together. Gay unions -- no matter how hard you try to fight it and deny it -- just doesn't produce the same results does it? Enjoy your lives and leave us to enjoy ours -- Leave Prop 8 ALONE!

MARRIAGE IS NOT A RIGHT! IT IS A PRIVILEGE WHICH IS HONORED FIRST IN LOVE AND THEN COMMITMENT FOLLOWED WITH RESPONSIBILITY TO BRING CHILDREN INTO THE WORLD. THERE ARE OTHERS WHO SPEAK OF CALIFORNIA BEING FIRST IN GAY RIGHTS -- I AM SURE THIS STATE IS SO I NEED NOT TALK ABOUT THE RIGHTS THAT NO IS TAKING AWAY FROM GAYS -- SO WHY ATTEMPT TO TAKE AWAY FROM HETEROSEXUALS THEIR RIGHT TO MARRY - not live together in civil partnership but TO MARRY AND FULFILL THEIR PURPOSE AND CONCEIVE, BEAR AND RAISE CHILDREN? LEAVE THEM AND
PROPOSITION 8 ALONE AND GROW UP!! -- WERE YOU BORN or HATCHED? GET REAL, CHILDREN COME OUT FROM HETEROSEXUAL MARRIAGES. NO TWO WAYS ABOUT IT. WHY PRETEND?

GERRI -- How dumb can a post get? HOPE? Commitment? LOVE?
One has to have FAITH that each of these essences will work - and work for you not against you -- You deny your own Faith and anyone who cannot even define what they believe or stand up for will lose those things they think are entitled to them! Take your theocracy and put where the sun wont! Marriage is about making babies -- Gay couples cannot nor ever will make children. Besides its the tax right offs that gay couples are interested in --- NOW THAT IS disgusting!
PROPOSITION 8 is about marriage and who else other than heterosexual couples are interested in this? You lose no rights as a gay when Proposition 8 is passed with YES so vote Yes!
thanks

The End of Marriage in Scandinavia
by Stanley Kurtz
02/02/2004, Volume 009, Issue 20
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/660zypwj.asp

"MARRIAGE IS SLOWLY DYING IN SCANDINAVIA. A majority of children in Sweden and Norway are born out of wedlock. Sixty percent of first-born children in Denmark have unmarried parents. Not coincidentally, these countries have had something close to full gay marriage for a decade or more. Same-sex marriage has locked in and reinforced an existing Scandinavian trend toward the separation of marriage and parenthood. The Nordic family pattern--including gay marriage--is spreading across Europe."


We Need More Babies!
By JAMES GRAFF | Paris Sunday, Nov. 21, 2004
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,785317,00.html

"Like Sweden and its Scandinavian neighbors, Britain, Ireland, France and the Netherlands are faring relatively well, with fertility rates above 1.7. Yet nowhere in the European Union does fertility approach 2.1, the level needed to keep the population stable. "A people that doesn't have children, that grows old, is a people without a future," says Tiziano Treu, a former Italian Minister of Labor and Welfare who recently co-authored a bill aimed at boosting Italy's rock-bottom birth rate of 1.29."

 
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