Anti-gay-marriage forces lead in cash just weeks from election *

As this endless election cycle grinds to a mud-slinging close, the tug of war continues over Proposition 8, the ballot initiative that would write a ban on gay marriage into the California Constitution.

High-profile donations have flowed to both sides of the debate. Last month, Brad Pitt and Steven Spielberg gave sizable chunks of change to oppose Proposition 8. In August, the Knights of Columbus kicked in a cool million to ensure that only a man and woman can ever say "I do" in the Golden State. Even Google has weighed in.

Now, with less than a month to go, fund-raising by Proposition 8 supporters has outstripped that of opponents. What does this mean for Nov. 4? Our own Jessica Garrison has the details:

Although the Yes on 8 campaign has not yet posted its latest fund-raising report, supporters said Tuesday that they have raised at least $25 million, compared with $15.75 million raised by the other side.

"As a result of not being able to match dollar for dollar, we have seen a change," said Geoff Kors, the executive director of Equality California, which is fighting Proposition 8, the proposed amendment to the state Constitution that would define marriage as only between a man and a woman.

The announcement pleased supporters of Proposition 8. "I can understand their concern," said Sonja Eddings Brown, spokeswoman for the Protect Marriage Coalition.

Although other polls throughout the summer have consistently shown Proposition 8 failing, she pointed to another recent poll, from CBS and SurveyUSA, which showed the measure leading slightly.

Behind the dollars and sentiments the question remains -- is marriage a state of the soul, or sole discretion of the state?

--Veronique de Turenne

Photo: Irfan Khan / Los Angeles Times

* An additional hyphen was added to the headline of this post for clarity.

Comments

[Dale]

I can't believe people are really proud of themselves for fighting so hard just to keep loving couples from getting a civil marriage license at city hall. How mean-spirited. I think Jesus would be ashamed at his name being used against people in such a way.

[Robert H ******]

Same Sex Marriage---If 'yes on 8' passes to SAVE marriage, what's next?

Eliminate divorce...then re-criminalize adultery?

Robert in Palm Springs, CA

[Kevin]

VOTE YES ON PROP 8!

You know in your heart that gay marriage is wrong. Even the depraved ancient Romans did not allow gay marriage. No society has allowed until now. We must draw the line. We love our gay family members and friends. They have civil unions and proper estate planning to protect them. If Prop 8 does not pass, we will not be allowed to disagree with them. Churches will be forced to go against their beliefs and perform gay marriages. Children will have to be taught in schools that gay marriage is ok. We will be opening a literal Pandora's Box. Sixty-one percent of us voted in 1998 to ban gay marriage, four supreme court judges should not be allowed to overrule us.

Kevin from Newbury Park

[David from Livermore CA]

Vote Yes on prop 8!

If prop 8 were passed then things like gay marriage would be taught to our children in school by law. Homosexual relationships would be canvased during sex ed. in high school. It disturbs me that that is even possible or thinkable.

Vote Yes on Prop 8!

[hetero 4ever]

Vote NO on Prop 8! Sorry to burst your paranoid, homophobic bubble there, David, but nothing will change when Prop 8 goes down. No forced teaching in the schools, no snarky peeks for the likes of you into private bedrooms. Just common decency -- you get to marry the one you love.

[MikeNYC]

Unfortunately the hate based groups are spreading lies about gay marriage being taught in the schools and other nonsense that more uneducated people are buying into. The anti-marriage crowd will stoop to any lies and deception to win their agenda of hate. To David from Livermore Ca. Why would you support the destruction of thousands of people's marriages with such a hateful amendment? How would you feel if an amendment destroyed YOUR marriage? Think!

[Kate O'Hanlan, MD]

All this worry about the children. Do you know that America's child mental and psychological health experts all endorse marriage equality? The American Psychiatric Ass'n has confirmed that sexual orientation is natural, biologically induced, morally neutral, immutable, neither contagious nor learned, and has no relation to an individuals ability to form deep and lasting relationships, to parent children, to work, or to contribute to society. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological Ass'n, and the American Psychiatric Ass'n have all endorsed civil marriage for same sex couples because marriage strengthens the mental and physical health and the longevity of couples, and provides greater legal and financial security for children, parents, and seniors. When Americas premier child and mental health associations and their expert panels endorse marriage equality, there is thus no ethical reason to discriminate against gay people and their children. On what facts will you base your vote? Or will it be bigotry?

[Sherida Raddigan]

For all of those who love to say that gay marriage changes nothing but allowing others to marry, you need to do more research. Try asking people in Massachusettes if nothing changed after they passed gay marriage. Religious adoption organizations are now froced to allow adoptions to gay couples or else close their doors, kindergarteners now get "diversity" training in school, including teaching about gay couples, over the objections of their parents. There is no option to opt out because they are teaching about a "legal" social institution. Wake up. It's not just about marriage, and people that tell you it is are either liars or seriously misinformed.

[Allen]

I don't want my children to be taught things in elementary school that will most certainly be taught if Prop 8 is defeated and gay marriage is legalized. Look at what happened in Massachusetts recently: after gay marriage was legalized, the parents of a second-grader requested that the school notify them in advance when teaching about same sex marriage was to occur so they could remove their child (which should be the right of any sensible parent.) The state appeals court ruled in favor of the school, which effectively eliminated the right of the parents to have control over what their children learn based on their own religious beliefs. If prop 8 passes in CA, the SAME thing will happen here because it is already mandated that marriage be taught in schools; gay marriage will naturally be included in that. We will start to see religious rights impinged upon as well, as there will inevitably be conflicts with religious liberty and free speech rights. Society will become more and more hostile to traditional beliefs about marriage and family.

[Matthew]

Some will just have to learn that just because something is viewed as being politically correct does not mean that it's good or even acceptable.

Prop 8 will pass, thanks be to God.

[Robert Smith]

In 1974 the APA decided to remove homosexuality as a mental disorder . Nicholas Cummings the President of APA said at that time "a proscription that appropriate and needed research would be conducted to substantiate these decisions." Unfortunately this research was never conducted. Since then there has been a continuing effort to prove that people are born that way. Each time a study claimed to find such proof it would later be dismissed. Until now in 2008 the new APA Pamphlet admits. "There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles..."

[Joseph B]

California public schools (non-private and non-religious) DO NOT teach any sort of marriage to children. It is expected of parents to teach their children and their responsibility at home. The arguments that "Gay marriage will be crammed down my children's throats" are invalid and a fear tactic to used by typical conservatives to lie to uninformed voters to vote for intolerance and typical institutionalized American discrimination. LA Times, San Diego Union Tribune and San Francisco Chronicle and the citizens of those cities say NO to Proposition 8.

[murky waters]

Many people would have no problem with granting gays Civil Unions, for purposes of insurance and other legal matters like inheritance. Although some do object to this for financial reasons, claiming that insurance and other financial costs have never been factored into the debate. -- However, since liberals also refuse to allow any objective accounting of the enormous costs of illegal immigration on our society, especially LA where half the population are Latino mostly illegal immigrants, making everything a matter of "human rights" and ignoring financial costs is a liberal trademark. And gays contribute significantly to our economy, usually being well-educated, so personally I don't think the argument that this is a net financial negative carries much weight.

But to call civil union "marriage" crosses into the sacred, religion and a host of emotional and religious values. It also can be seen to discriminate against heteros living together without being married ("in sin") since they wouldn't get the legal benefits that "married" gays do. If what gays want are the financial benefits, they should have not used the emotional "marriage" wording, which sets off even moderate religious people who could accept civil unions.

About gay "marriage" being taught in schools: Joseph is only half-right. Books like "Joe has Two Mommies" are already being used in schools to tech "tolerance," and once gay marriage is legal, parents who object will have a harder time trying to keep their kids from having to read these books than they do now. Gay parents will argue that NOT to include them violates the law. While this isn't a big issue to me personally, from a legal perspective, I think it's naive to pretend there won't be broader implications we're not discussing.

[Stephanie Schuetz]

One would think that with the implementation of same-sex marriage in Massachusetts, everyone would be feeling "equal" now. Isn't same-sex marriage enough?

Apparently not.

Well, why not?

Because converting children to homosexuality seems to be the order of the day. This is what comes next after same-sex marriage laws are passed, in spite of what you or I think about it: www.massresistance.com

Be sure to check out the "instructional video" shown to teachers about teaching same-sex relationships in the classroom.

Be sure to check out the pamphlets passed out to local high school students that are pornographic in pictures and words, and that list local gay clubs in which to meet adult gays (yes, IN school, as part of the curriculum)

Be sure to check out the video about David Parker, who was put in handcuffs for protesting at a parents' meeting in which he was denied the right to opt his six-year-old out of the indoctrination exercises.

[M Phelps]

Vote Yes on Prop 8. I rarely get involved in political discussions. In fact, this is the first time I've ever posted a comment to an article online. Yes on Prop 8 is critical to the future for my children. I feel strongly that my children should be taught the values of traditional family. We should focus all our attention and effort on how to improve the basic unit of society, the traditional family; not on the selfish desires of a few individuals. Vote Yes on Prop 8 for our children and for their future.

[Reverend Mother]

This issue is far beyond sexuality, the definition of marriage, or whom one can love with legal protection. If Prop 8 is passed, there is no telling who's rights are the next to be eliminated.

Our state's and country's constitution have never voted to eliminate an individual's or group's rights - they're there to protect everyone, especially minorities.

VOTE NO ON 8!

[Reverend Mother]

This issue is far beyond sexuality, the definition of marriage, or whom one can love with legal protection. If Prop 8 is passed, there is no telling who's rights are the next to be eliminated.

Our state's and country's constitution have never voted to eliminate an individual's or group's rights - they're there to protect everyone, especially minorities.

VOTE NO ON 8!

[neta]

All who are for prop 8 should be ashamed of yourselves. Slave owners once said that black people couldn't marry because they weren't real people. Then they said that interracial couples couldn't marry. Now they are trying to keep fear and hatred running through america---it is bigots and undereducated zealots who have to hate SOMEONE in order to be satisfied with their lives. And who gets hurt--people like my precious, kind, and loving 15 month old son who has two mommies who have loved each other truely and deeply for 5 years. He and the MILLIONS of children like him are the ones who are going to pay for the hatred. SHAME on you--on all of you, who say they are thinking about "the children." Yes, maybe my son would learn in school that his family is unique and beautiful, like any other loving family. Shame on you.

[Emily]

Vote YES on Prop 8! I am the last person to get political but here I am commenting on this article. It seems that this is an extremely sensitive issue, as it should be. I have family members and dear friends who are gay. I love and respect them a great deal. I can't begin to imagine the trials they face that I do not even think twice about. Here is the problem with this issue- defining marriage. The last time I looked in the dictionary marriage was between one man and one woman. It does not discriminate against race or status- just gender. A husband and wife joined together is a marriage. Now if we are to redefine marriage then how far are we to let it go? How about two men and one woman? Where do you and I draw the line? Redefining the english language is not how we should be operating. That is the same tactic Bill Clinton tried to weasle out of lying about being an adulterer. Let's take all the emotion out of it and think. Marriage- one man and one woman. End of story. Then we take into account the ripple affect it has one our society and our value system (a value system that may not be everyone's but it was the majority last time I checked).

VOTE YES ON PROP 8- Protect your rights!

[Greling Jackson]

I doubt any of these people for Prop. 8 have gay friends or family, unless they're like the homophobic Senator Pete Knight (now dead) who have personal beefs with their relatives and only want Prop. 8. to pass so that they can teach their relatives "a lesson" by writing discrimination into the Constitution against them.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is the Constitution for crying out loud! If there is even any speck of a doubt in your mind as to what you are voting on, then I suggest you vote "NO". Better to vote this amendment down and revisit the issue later on than to vote it in and be oh-so-sorry later that you brought harm onto millions of innocent people who did nothing but love one another in a very prejudiced world.

If you have even an ounce of Christian compassion within you, if you call yourself a believer in the American ideals of "live and let live", then you'll VOTE NO ON PROP. 8!

Just ask yourself why the NAACP, MALDEF, ACLU and other civil rights organizations are against this and why 38% OF THE FUNDING FOR PROP. 8 COMES DIRECTLY FROM THE MORMON CHURCH, OVER HALF OF WHICH IS OUT-OF-STATE!

[Hal Prince]

If Prop 8 passes, people who voted for it should be required to go and visit same-sex couples and families, and explain to them in person why it is that their marriage is being dissolved, and their children put at risk. The so-called arguments for the proposition are just ridiculous. We have legal same-sex marriage now; no church is losing its tax-exempt status (except possibly for endorsing political candidates), and children are not being taught anything that they wouldn't be taught anyway. You have the right not to approve of gay relationships, just as you have the right to disapprove of jews, or people who like country music. But it is cruel and immoral to punish jews, or gays, or blacks, or whatever group gets your goat, by denying them equal rights under the law.

[Mike B.]

The Bible defines homosexuality as a sin. (I Cor 6:9-10) This is what Christians believe. For a Christian to condone same-sex marriage would be to go against what we believe is the word of God. If we are bigots, then so was Jesus. Jesus said to love the sinner but not the sin, and we are all sinners. If Prop 8 passes, many gay activists plan to test churches by insisting on getting married there. One group already has a lawsuit pending against a Bible printing company in an effort to have verses against homosexuality removed from the Bible. The church will then have to choose to bend to the will of the gay agenda, or risk lawsuits that could drive it out of business. However, in America the majority rules. Either the church will win this battle, or the proponents of gay marriage will, but not both.

[Paul]

To the people who cite the bible as their reasoning for passing this rediculous amendment...The bible is not law. The bible is an opinion. Do you approve of the strict muslim koran law being enforced is nsome countries? Oh wait..probably not. It's not Christian.

[Byron]

I say lets go for it. And since there is no "moral" reason for marraige between two men or women why not triples. If there isn't any moral reason to keep the sanctity of marriage between man and wife then there is no reason we shouldn't be able to marry seven or eight people if we "love " them so they have all of our benefits.
Gay is wrong, gay tendencies aren't as long as there not acted on and prayer counselling can help. If a person is attracted to little sheep that doesn't make it natural or right. But this is the same crowd that suck thier half born, warm, wiggling babies brains out of the skulls with a vaccum cleaner and call us HATERS!

[Wu Ming]

I feel very torn about Proposition 8. First, it seems very clear that the people against it have strong religious objections; viz. the Bible-quoter just above. (When will people learn that persuading non-religious people by quoting your own religious book does not work? "It says this right here in the Koran!") And many of them also seem to believe that homosexuality is something one chooses, like dyeing your hair. (Do THEY feel capable of choosing it, one wonders?)

On the other hand, even though I have gay relatives I love, and one of them has children (I've always wondered how),I do feel strongly that it's better for any child to be with its biological parents if at all possible. The woman above who has a child "with" her friend did not create the child with her friend. The child has a father who is not in the picture. What will it be like for a child, girl or boy, to grow up knowing there is no possibility of a father in its life? To know its mother didn't want it to have a father? Not great, is the answer. I don't mean the children will turn out badly, or that other children are not raised in far worse conditions. Gay parents are still loving parents like anyone else. But it still seems sad FOR THE CHILD to deliberately deprive a child of its other parent. I don't like to see the sanction of the state given to that.

In France, there is a civil union called PACS that offers inheritance and insurance and other rights to any two unmarried people who wish it. I think this, and not marriage, is the solution to this issue.

I haven't decided yet how I'm going to vote.