Mormon Church steps into the Prop. 8 battle

Everyone's got an opinion about Proposition 8, the proposed amendment to the state Constitution to outlaw same-sex marriage. Plenty of people and organizations are voting with their pocketbooks, both from within and from outside California.

Now comes the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which grabbed some TV time in Utah to urge the 770,000 Mormon church members in California to weigh in on the matter. Here's the story from the Associated Press:

Two members of the church's second-highest governing body, the Quorum of Twelve Apostles, quoted from Mormon scripture on the sanctity of marriage as they laid out a week-by-week strategy for boosting Mormon involvement before the Nov. 4 election in voter registration efforts, phone banks and distributing campaign materials.

“What we're about is the work of the Lord, and He will bless you for your involvement,” apostle M. Russell Ballard said during the hour-long meeting, which was broadcast to church buildings in California, Utah, Hawaii and Idaho.

So far, Proposition 8 supporters have poured $19,778,208 to outlaw same-sex marriage, about $1.6 million more than opponents of the measure. Add the two sides together and that's about $38 million. Imagine the good it could be doing elsewhere.

The rest of the Associated Press story is after the jump.

-- Veronique de Turenne

Photo: Inside the LDS conference center in Salt Lake City. Credit: Associated Press

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is part of a coalition of conservative groups backing Proposition 8, which would overturn the California Supreme Court decision that legalized same-sex marriage in the nation's most populous state by amending the state constitution to limit marriage to a man and a woman.

Mormons have been active participants in the campaign both as volunteers and financial contributors, giving an estimated 43 percent — some $8.4 million — to the Proposition 8 campaign, according to the Web site mormonsfor8.com. There are about 770,000 Mormon church members in California, but Mormons from outside the state have been encouraged to give money and time to help pass the measure.

During Wednesday's taped satellite broadcast, church leaders asked for 30 members from each California congregation to donate four hours a week to the campaign. They also called on young married couples and single Mormons to use the Internet, text messaging, blogging and other forms of computer technology to help pass the initiative, saying the church has created a new Web site — PreservingMarriage.org — with materials they can download and post on their own social networking sites.

Church elder L. Whitney Clayton, who has been working as a liaison between the LDS leaders and the Proposition 8 campaign, said before the event that it was meant to energize Mormons for the weeks remaining before Election Day.

    “It's a political campaign, and time is short and there's a lot to do.”

Along with recruiting Mormons to work in California, church members from outside the state have been asked to call friends and family at home in California to encourage support for the measure, according to Clayton. He said many students attending church-owned universities have asked how they might help and could be enlisted to make calls.

“In California, the phone trees are up and running. We just want to be able to help, and one of the things we can do is we can organize,” Clayton said in an interview Wednesday.

Officially, the Mormon church is politically neutral and does not endorse individual candidates or political parties. The church does, however, weigh in on issues it considers morally important. The church holds traditional marriage as a sacred institution ordained by God and has actively fought efforts to legalize same-sex marriage across the United States since the 1990s.

Its involvement in the California same-sex marriage debate this year began with a letter from church President Thomas S. Monson asking California Mormons to give their time and money to pass Proposition 8. Monson's letter has been read repeatedly in Mormon churches, and opponents of the forthcoming initiative have credited LDS members with giving the Yes on 8 camp an edge in donations and volunteers.

Some Mormons have criticized the church for wading so heavily into the political realm.

“We know that it is not without controversy, yet let me be clear that at the heart of this issue is the central doctrine of eternal marriage and it's place in our Father's plan,” Ballard said.

Besides Clayton and Ballard, the broadcast featured Quentin L. Cook, another member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles.

Comments

[Doug - the other Doug]

"Why in the world is that not good enough?"

Are you kidding?

Good Grief.

[Doug]

No, I'm not kidding.

Excuse me while I take a break from this brutally rigorous line of questioning ;).

[Jaime]

Who is really lying about gay marriage being taught in our schools? Please look at this link: http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/proposition-8-whos-really-lying/story.aspx?guid={5627F03A-80C6-4259-8A81-E5D73F237D93}&dist=hppr. Thank you.

[Jared Stucki]

With regards to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (The Mormons) and our firm position on proposition 8, let us review this contrived and far-fetched falsehood many like to call "separation of church and state". This incorrect verbage, and commonly misused phrase, was the result of the controversial 1947 Supreme Court case "Everson vs. Board of Education".
A careful read by an even mildly-intelligent human being renders a clear understanding that it was wisely crafted by our wonderful founding fathers to protect religion from government and not the other way around. Open up your copy of the constitution or google it and pull up the 1st Amendment. The first line means that government should not sponsor one single particular religious group and force it with its military to be adhered to by all of the nations citizens. The rest of the Amendment speaks of a "one-way prohibition" stating that government shall not interfere in any way with religion.
This does not teach us that religion should not influence government. Of course it should. It readily does, even today, drive most of governments good intentions and efforts. Prayer in school, the ten commandments hung in court rooms, crosses as war memorials, and Christmas displays in the public square in no way violate the First Amendment. Our church, and all other churches, are heavily protected by the U.S. Constitution in taking a firm and immovable stance against forced perversion on society and our parental rights to protect our children from unnecessary perverted indoctrination in the public schools that we fund.
Mark my words. "Yes on 8" will prevail come November 4. Remember, 50 out of 50 states have voted to maintain the sanctity of one type of family and marriage. In the 3 most secular progressive states (Massachussetts, California, and Connecticut) judges have wrongfully and to their peril, overturned the voice of the people. Were they paid off by Gay rights groups? Possibly. Fifty out of fifty...... I like those odds.

[Scott McDowell]

I was LDS for 25 years before realizing the folly of my ways. Recently, someone asked me about Mormonism. I said The first rule of the church is, "The church members believe they have exclusive rights to the truth, that no one else has the whole truth." The second rule of Mormonism is "If you don't agree with us on everything, then you probably just don't understand YET." It makes me sick, all of the blogs about how happy their lives are, so you should lead yours the same way. The church teaches free will, I only wish they practiced it. One entry further up asked "Where would you be without a mother and father? Nowhere!" Are they afraid that everyone will become homosexual and the human race will go extinct? Your version happiness forced on me doesn't make me happy!

150 years ago, the church was bullied by laws, now it's trying to be the bully. It's wrong to enact laws based on religious beliefs! Surrender your "moral superiority" or be damned as hypocrites!

As Obama once asked, who's religion will dictate the laws? When I was discussing this with my mother and I stated that we need moral leaders, she tried to change the wording of the conversation from "moral" to "religious," inferring that people without religion are without morals.

[Bill Sampson]

And the Mormon Church is still tax exempt? Why? Looks like nothing but a political lobbying organization to me. End tax exempt status NOW!

[SAD DAY IN AMERICA]

"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

"The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).

INCREDIBLE that the Mormon church would step in to oppress the rights of a minority group of people in this country. After facing religious discrimination and moving across the USA to escape such bigotry, the Mormon Church turns around and clobbers the gay community. Have we learned nothing from the civil rights era? Gay people should have EQUAL RIGHT to marry the same as straight people, it's the right and just thing to do. Voting NO on Prop 8 or we will move this country backwards. Religious institutions do not always act in just ways. Think about it!

[Looking Back at LDS]

Everyone reading this story should keep in mind that the LDS had its tax exempt status threatened in the 1970s. Pressure was felt by the LDS at this time because of the LDS' institutionalized racism. The IRS was threatening to cancel the church's non-profit tax exempt status. University sports teams were refusing to compete in Utah. This pressure was relieved on 1978-JUN-6 when the church received a new revelation from God to end the practice of discrimination against persons of African-American heritage.

If the IRS questioned the LDS tax status again for engagement in excessive lobbying related to a political campaign maybe it will cause the LDS to have a new revelation from God.

It is ironic in the mid-19th century when the Mormon practice of polygyny -- a form of polygamy -- was the main reason why statehood for Utah was initially rejected. Six additional refusals followed, between 1849 and 1887. In 1890, as the government was about to seize the assets of the LDS Church, the Prophet received a revelation from God. This was the "Great Accommodation" that changed suspended the practice of polygyny -- a form of polygamy. On 1896-JAN-4, Utah became the 45th state in the union.

[Frances]

Wow. I hate religion. It teaches how to exclude member from society. And now we get to rights.

VOTE NO ON PROP 8. Stop the ignorance.
This is about Civil Rights.

CIVIL RIGHTS. I love homosexuals and I love people. I can't support a theology that discriminates a type of people. That's just wrong and un-Godly.

Grow up America it's 2008.

[Frances]

"Studies have shown that children raised by homosexual parents are just as emotionally and socially healthy as those raised by heterosexual parents. The Child Welfare League of America says of its position on same-sex parenting: “Studies using diverse samples and methodologies in the last decade have persuasively demonstrated that there are no ... Read Moresystematic differences between gay or lesbian and non-gay or lesbian parents in emotional health, parenting skills, and attitudes toward parenting.”

I sad that some of us are so close minded that we reject the feminine and masculine sides of our nature only accept one. Any 2 loving human beings can take care of a child. The children also learn to be open-minded and learn the core value of their own relationships.

Can you imagine a world that was less sexist than it is now? Why promote sexism?

Go look up more research. Gay couples are loving couples much the same as hetereosexual couples. Just because two people have the same parts doesn't mean they can't raise children just the same.

Stop being so silly America. So silly.

[Frances]

Homosexuality IS natural.

And it was the church that demonized it.

Pretty much this is a social thing. Either you get it or you don't. Look protect the civil right of everyone NOT JUST ONE TYPE OF PEOPLE.

[mageos]

Frances, this is not about civil rights. Domestic partnerships afford homosexuals the same rights as married couples. That is the way the law is written. I believe that a marriage is the start of a family. I realize that all that embark in marriage do not end up having kids, nor do all who have kids start with marriage, but ideally, that is the case. The civil definition of marriage should protect that ideal and that is why I am voting yes on prop 8. Rights to homosexuals are afforded to them through domestic partnerships. If those rights are not being honored, that should be fixed and the fix should not be calling their relationship a marriage. The definition of marriage should reflect the definition that provides the strongest families since the strength of a society is only as strong as its family. Biologically there are major advantages of heterosexual parents. Men and women are biologically, chemically and emotionally different. These differences are important and a healthy heterosexual couple benefits from the balance each side provides to the other. I understand that not all heterosexual couples are great parents and that some homosexual couples make great parents, but this does not justify to me the changing of the definition of marriage.

[GG]

Honestly, I don't want our government to tell people how they should live, at the same time to change the meaning of the word "marriage" then affects me. The law will change MY DEFINITION of marriage and it will viewed differently. I don't want a law decided by 7 supreme court people to determine my defenition of marriage.

I say give them all the same rights a married couples, but don't call it a marriage.

@Doug - Why can't we make a prop that will make these "civil unions" "superior"...?

What's going to be next? Polygamy? And in the extreme circumstance of people wanting to marry their pets?

[Rick Sparks]

It's no shock to find out that the Mormon Church - an organization which engaged in incredibly abhorrent racial discrimination as recently as the late 70s - is spreading millions of dollars around in an attempt to support the California amendment. I guess, to them, gays are the new blacks.

The United States is supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the BRAVE. There is NOTHING brave in being afraid of what other people choose to do behind closed doors.

[Doug]

Funny how the anti-8 posts drift into fantasies. Let's set a few things straight.

1. The Mormon Church has given exactly $0 to the yes on 8 campaign. Richard Sparks, you simply made up a story about it giving millions and you should apologize for that.

2. It is not about love. Whether you support 8 or not, it does not mean you love or hate homosexuals; there is no correlation whatsoever.

3. It is not about determining qualified parents. Many homosexuals may be better “qualified” to parent than many heterosexuals; this is not at issue.

4. It is not about taking away rights. The supreme court opinion actually discussed the fact that no additional rights would be obtained by same-sex couples in California by granting them the right to marry.

5. It is about maintaining a special relationship between husband and wife, a belief that sexual orientation matters, and identifying as a society the fundamental unit for continuing a successful community.

[Greggbot]

I'm sorry, Yes on 8 people are bigots and bigotry pises me off. And NO, hating bigots isn't bigotry.

[Greggbot]

Doug wrote:
5. It is about maintaining a special relationship between husband and wife,

How does someobody elses life effect your relationship? Please explain.

a belief that sexual orientation matters,

You meanli9ke how one is "correct" and the other is "abnormal" and inferior to you?

and identifying as a society the fundamental unit for continuing a successful community.

Prove that marriage being defined as a man and a woman "continues a successful community."

It sounds like a bunch of gibberish shrouding your bigotry.

[keith]

What I can't understand is how a group that was so discriminated upon in the 19th century can advocate discrimination against anyone. I can't fathom that there is no sense of empathy amongst church leaders with a group of people who's fundamental rights are under attack. I know many practicing LDS members and they say their church is a bout love, tolerance and caring. It doesn't jive. If the LDS Church is trying to show hateful, fundamentalist Christians they are like them, there are better ways.

[LH]

Marriage is defined as a union between a man and woman. Same sex couples are demanding that society elevate homosexuality. Same sex marriages already have he benefits of traditional marriage. Get the civil unions code redefined.
Homosexuality is the conduct of engaging in sodomy (homosexual relations) with members of the same sex. This is a clear definition. Civil rights, on the other hand, are also known as “natural rights,” because they are based on things that cannot be changed or chosen. Conduct is not a civil right. The whole idea of civil rights is that our civil government will respect, approve and award protected status to persons who are born with certain unchangeable qualities. This is why civil rights law prohibits discrimination based on race, ethnicity and nationality, sex and age — all immutable characteristics.

There are thousands of former homosexuals, but no former blacks or Hispanics.

[Bruce]

LH you are a moron, prop 8 is about civil marriage, not your cult or so called reigious marriage. When you get married you have to file a marriage certificate at the county courthouse which is a CIVIL MARRIAGE, not a RELIGIOUS marriage. We don't want to attend your hateful church or give to your brainwashing leaders. GET OUT OF OUR BEDROOMS AND OUR LIVES AND REMEMBER SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE OR START PAYING TAXES LIKE THE REST OF US. AND OH BY THE WAY, IF PROP 8 PASSESS, THEN STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND START PAYING MORE TAXES, BECAUSE I INTEND TO FILE A LAWSUIT THAT DEIFINES TAX LIABILITY TO RIGHTS. WE ARE DENIED 1049 RIGHTS, SO WE DON'T HAVE TO PAY TAXES ON THE RIGHTS WE ARE DENIED, SO BELLY UP TO THE BAR AND PAY MY 1049 TAXES BIGOT!!!

[Fergy]

gez how many times do i have to listen to "vote no on prop 8" it takes away rights. no it doesnt no matter how manty ppl say this i show them the actual Prop 8 thing not what bias newsstands say cuz they lie way to much. its not going to eliminate rights or equality its just saying that you cant teach 5 year olds gay marriage at a young age or that churches have to marry gays cuz they say churches can choose yet if they say no then they lose their tax benefits if they dont marry gays. read the actual prop not what news tells you.

[Silver Spade]

If proposition 8 doesn't pass then how would marriage be defined? It seems to me that there is nothing to prevent say a woman from marrying more than one man at the same time or vice versa, or any number of same sex couples.

[Casper]

Every individual on earth, including each homosexual, has been created as the result of a union between a man and a woman. There are no exceptions. Individuals born from this natural union can choose to enter the same union known as marriage. Or, they can choose a different path.

Each deviant is free to choose a same-sex partner, an animal partner or an inflatable partner for that matter. However, none of these counterfeit unions or deviations qualify as marriage. None of these unions should be known by the word marriage because they are not marriage. No amount of ranting, raving and protesting will make them the same as marriage.

As citizens, we cannot allow the God-given institution of marriage to be hijacked in a misguided attempt to legitimize same-sex unions. Every union that goes against nature, if left to reproduce from its own offspring, will soon become extinct. This is true of same-sex unions. Their only hope for survival is to attempt to legitimize their behavior and sell their lifestyle to our children - the children being born to men and women.

[Cain Hamm]

The wording of Proposition 8 is awfully strange as this website points out. (http://RavagedFaces.com/) There's a chance that it will open the door for Polygamy, the way Judges interpret things these days.

[lionel]

Mormons are getting a lot of publicity for their efforts on the YES campaign. Apparently, the media thinks they are an easy target. However, thousands of every day Catholics such as myself are also donating our money and volunteering our time. While we may be late to the party, our churches are mobilizing and our priests are urging parishoners, from the pulpit, to vote YES. In particular, Black and Hispanic Catholic churches in LA, where the issue will be decided. Catholics and Mormons have had their differences, but it has been a blessing working with them on this cause. Their faith and commitment is amazing. While I can't subscribe to the theology, I think the Mormon people are awesome.

To all of my Mormon brothers and sisters, you are not alone. Catholics are showing our support with our pocketbooks, waving signs, and manning phonebanks, and most of all, in prayer. YES, of course, on Prop 8.

[Mark]

VOTE YES on PROP 8!

For the sake of the rising generation, value of family and a stable society.

YES on 8!

[RWS]

Isn't it lovely how the Mormons and the Catholics have decided to clobber the gay community. I think back on how the Mormons themselves were descriminated, and of course the Catholics were the Inquisition.

[Larry]

I voted NO on prop 8 and I also feel like it was the right choice. If prop 8 passes it will be tied in the courts for years to come and probably be thrown out since the public has been mislead by all the TV adds for 8. The Mormon Church has a history of complaining about change in the pormise land. Remember our Heavenly Father will only give us modern reveliations when the people are ready and it appears that we are not ready for this change? Don't forget what the Church did regarding African Americans, what's next? Just like Chist said on the cross, forgive them Father for they do not know what they do. When your back in the spirit world you will realize how stupid you were in your fight for prop 8. Vote NO on Prop 8.

Larry in Orange County Ca

[David Blackburn]

If California Proposition 8 passes, there are two possibilities that none of the news agencies are reporting; 1) All marriages could be invalidated within the state or, 2) Marriages could be banned altogether in the state.

Please see the following lines from the Supreme Court’s ruling:

Just as a statute that restricted marriage only to couples of the same sex would discriminate against heterosexual persons on the basis of their heterosexual orientation, the current California statutes realistically must be viewed as discriminating against gay persons on the basis of their homosexual orientation.
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When a statute’s differential treatment of separate categories of individuals is found to violate equal protection principles, a court must determine whether the constitutional violation should be eliminated or cured by extending to the previously excluded class the treatment or benefit that the statute affords to the included class, or alternatively should be remedied by withholding the benefit equally from both the previously included class and the excluded class.
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… perhaps in order to emphasize and clarify that this civil institution is distinct from the religious institution of marriage — it were to assign a name other than marriage as the official designation of the family relationship for all couples.
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Whether or not the name “marriage,” in the abstract, is considered a core element of the state constitutional right to marry, one of the core elements of this fundamental right is the right of same-sex couples to have their official family relationship accorded the same dignity, respect, and stature as that accorded to all other officially recognized family relationships.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
We need not decide in this case whether the name “marriage” is invariably a core element of the state constitutional right to marry so that the state would violate a couple’s constitutional right even if — perhaps in order to emphasize and clarify that this civil institution is distinct from the religious institution of marriage — the state were to assign a name other than marriage as the official designation of the formal family relationship for all couples.

[Hub Freeman]

I am leaving the Mormon Church - I will not be part of a hate group any longer. I was naive when I joined the Church in the 70's...this issue has opened my eyes to the bigotry that Mormons perpetuate. These are the same arguments that were used to keep Blacks out of the Priesthood and the temples in the 70's.

The persecuted have become the persecutors...those that fought to have the freedom to live and practice as they wanted - now seek to deny rights and freedoms for others.

And these arguments that same-sex marriage will destroy traditional marriage and bring our Nation to its knees...now I wish more than anything that I had been born in Canada...a strong, peace-loving nation that respects the rights of ALL its citizens.

Hateful groups always find a way to justify their righteousness...and a reason that they think legitimizes their right to oppress.

I am ashamed that I was ever a Mormon, and I am increasingly ashamed to be an American. We fight for freedom all over the world, and then deny freedom to our own citizens. Our forefathers almost destroyed the Native Americans, brought Blacks across the ocean to be their slaves...then treated them no better than the livestock...and this new generation perpetuates the hate that results in crimes like Mathew Shepard's murder. I must say one other thing about all the arguments that Prop 8 supporters are protecting children…maybe if children learned more about diversity, gay teens would not have a suicide rate triple that of other youth - genocide by any method - is still genocide.

All that said, I guess we can agree on another issue...we have not evolved.

[Brad]

If gay marriage is allowed to go on it does effect ALL churches. Since the Christian religion only beleivies in a marriage between a man and woman they would be forced to marry gay couples in Gods house. If they didnt they will lose thier tax expemptions from the IRS. Mormons would have to possible shut thier temples down due to the fact gay couples would sue if they wouldnt let them get sealed in the temple. This is bigger than anyone thinks!!!!!

[Stroked]

This is a civil rights issue and how anyone for any reason can deny that is beyond me. What's next, a proposition to ban the marriage between ethnicities? If the Mormon Church had there way I'm sure it'd be up for the next ballot. People, we have to accept that we are ALL different.

If you don't like the lifestyle some people lead then don't subscribe to it. The problem with religion is it divides us. I think anyone should be free to practice their beliefs and go to their churches and live their life as they want. But listen religion, if you want that for yourselves than you have to realize that it is available to EVERYONE including those you do not agree with.

If your kids see two men or two women holding hands or kissing in public then guess what, it's part of our Freedoms we have in this country. And THAT is what should be explained to them.

Suppose the Catholic Church authored a proposition to ban the Mormon religion? Would you see that as a Civil Rights issue?

[Cory McKee]

Wow! I've been reading the reviews. Marriage between a man and a woman is God's law. We love everyone but can not change God's law. Because The Church is involved with this moral issue this has upset some. We love all people but can not codone that which is against God's laws.

[chris]

What is it for the mormons. I'm married to a mormon woman and I see what they do day in and day out. They just love to stick thier nose in every family and pretend thier church is so powerfull and careless what you believe in. We Californian's are happy with our state and Mormon's should mind your own business in Utah. Call out for the people who support Prop 8 and invite them over to live in your nick of wood. "Yes ON 8"

[Carole Morris]

I can, but you can’t

By Carole Morris

Proposition 8 represents the majority acting to harm a minority
We have on our November ballot a proposition, written by constituents for the sole purpose of denying rights to other constituents, based one criterion, sexual orientation.

Proposition 8 is written by heterosexuals, who are permitted to marry any other heterosexual they choose. Their right to do this is neither weakened nor strengthened, by the exclusivity of who else is permitted to marry. This ballot measure does nothing to protect the rights of heterosexuals, who undoubtedly regard that marriage right as unalienable.

Consider a hypothetical example using different (albeit still discriminatory) criteria: What if young people considered it unconscionable that older people should marry? After all, older people are no longer able to procreate, so what is the point of marriage, the young might ask?

The main argument, though, which is posed by the proponents of Prop. 8, is faith-based. They believe wholeheartedly that the Bible tells us that marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman. The Bible certainly brings comfort and reassurance to many in their search for the right moral compass to follow. However, we’re talking laws here, and our Constitution states:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

In the case of same-sex marriage, finding happiness with a same-sex partner takes no right from any other human being. The Bible provides much guidance regarding adultery, telling lies and getting a full day of rest. We can each follow our hearts on these matters, but to make laws to require that others do so is legislating religion. That only works when it is your religion, and even then, you might like to leave your choices between you and your Creator. I do.

Our laws are drafted and adopted primarily to protect the rights of the nonmajority The majority is able by force of numbers to live with privileges and guarantees that the nonmajority must struggle to assert. When the will of the minority takes something from the majority it is easy to understand why ballot measures and legislation find their way into the law books. But when the minority seeks only to live equally, and take nothing from the majority, I do not understand how a law such as Prop. 8 is even permitted to be considered.

Denying marriage to homosexuals does not strengthen the tenuous bonds of the current state of heterosexual marriage. Is the motivation, then, merely the embarrassing human tendency to value what we have more if someone else cannot have it?

I don’t imagine that the proponents of Prop. 8 expect this proposal to change the sexual orientation, or the cohabitation, of the members of the gay community. Might that be next, I wonder?

What, I sincerely ponder, what is its purpose if not simply to deny certain citizens, based on discriminatory grounds, their unalienable right to marry? Perhaps the gay community’s defense should be that they are being denied their right to marry based on gender, and not on sexual orientation: “If I could marry you, but for your gender”... perhaps that argument would allow those who love each other, regardless of gender, the freedom to make that commitment.

Those who oppose gay marriage instead of trying to limit how others live, should focus on spreading the word that diversity and freedom of opinion are what makes America truly American. Let us disagree. Have enough confidence in your opinion arid belief to allow the opposing view its place. Then make your choice for a spouse, and let others do likewise. Liberty and justice for all.

I sometimes find it difficult to live authentically despite the (arguable) advantages 1 have as a white, single, middleclass, baby-boomer heterosexual female. Many of the rights I enjoy were fought for on my behalf long before I was born, and some, after.

Writing discrimination into law takes us back to the reasons we stood against tyranny more than 200 years ago. If I can marry you, but for your gender, what is that if not discrimination? I worry; what might follow a degenerative societal inclination like Prop. 8?

[ryan]

you silly, silly people.

[Brian Smith]

Mormons need to stay out of California and it's politics.

Mormons believe in true family values and Marriage being defined as being between a Man and his wives... 20 wives

[Seattle Guy]

WOW, what a ton of stupid comments against the LDS Church. First don't make childish comments about polygamy when it has nothing to do with the topic, and know the facts, not anti-Mormon "facts". Here are some facts for those who are too lazy to find them: LDS discontinued polygamy in the 1800's, 20% or less actually practiced it at that time which would put the number around 38,000 people. Next those that have done it since then have either left the church or been excommunicated. Other groups like the FLDS are NOT of or faith and NEVER have been. I mean, are people that dumb that can’t tell the difference? Do check the facts!
LDS or not, the Bible clearly states that being gay is wrong. So, how does that work? Society says that it’s acceptable, but to God it is not? Talk about justification! Maybe gay people should petition an amendment to God change his commandments, I’m sure that would work out real well. Christ does love all men and women, but he came to save people from sin, not people IN sin. There is a difference.

[LDO]

Doug, mageos, and other prop 8 supporters:

You all seem to be operating under the belief that civil unions/domestic partnerships afford gays the exact same, equal rights as marriages afford straight couples. Time and time again you all say the argument is not over civil rights, however that is indeed the heart of it. Many gays could care less what you call their "union," they just want to have the same rights as everyone else. And that is where the passing of prop 8 fails them.

You say the Defense of Marriage Act offers equal rights to gay unions, but that is untrue. And even if you think they still can enjoy the same rights as you can, they would only be valid at the state level, not federal. That's another big difference. You can move to any state in the nation and still have your "married" rights....gays cannot. Even if gays have a civil union, if they have to move to a state that does not recognize such unions, they have no rights at all, unlike you.

Assuming gays will remain in the state where they got their civil union for their entire life, they will still have fewer rights than straight couples.

Here are a few examples....
- Taxes....gays can't file federal joint tax returns, which could mean tax penalties if they wish to transfer wealth between them.
- Health insurance....if a company follows federal laws, they don't have to extend health benefits to include couples joined by civil unions if they don't want to.
- Social security....straight people will get social security/survivor benefits if their spouse dies...gays will not.
-Immigration....entering into a civil union will not qualify someone for citizenship, unlike marriages will.

Those are just a few examples, but in the end, banning gay marriage is very much about civil rights.

[Rick]

The LDS church is a well organized church that is always supporitng what is right. No, it is not a cult, it is a great church. This prop that just passed will benefit our communities. Stop complaining, you lost, what are you going to do about it!

[Mario]

LDO. Where were you 300 posts ago!!! Finally someone puts it out clearly.

I do not believe in GOD or the church (start throwing stones now). I live a good life and I am kind and loving to others because I feel that to be what every human being should do. I don't need a bible to tell me how to behave towards my neighbors. I love my partner for who he is and not because we may or may not be able to have children.

The marriage institution, is not sacred. If it was, why do you have divorce? Why not ban that? Why not then force married couples to procreate or force unwed parents to marry or live within driving distance to each other and force them to spend a minimum amount of time (50%).

Has Canada, the Netherlands, Spain or the UK's children or fabric of society deteriorated because of gay marriage? Last time I checked, NO.

To my fellow gays. This is the time to rise against discrimination. To make our voices heard. We can and will fight with all we have againt those who wish to shut us down. Today is the day.

[Jeff W]

Now you've done it. All you religious zealots who fought for Prop. 8 have unleashed the fury of the gays and now your worst nightmares will come true. Gays will come in the night and snatch your children from their beds, spiriting them away to unknown places where they will be indoctrinated with "The Gay Agenda," thereby making them all turn gay. Procreating will end and America will turn into one big dance club. The fabric of society will not only be torn apart, it will be shredded and made into a fabulous new dress by Christian Siriano.

[Tax Avenger]

This blog provides perfect evidence that the mormon church has once again overstepped its bounds and acted as a PAC. Its time the IRS steps in to hit them in the one place they care about more than supressing rights -- their bank accounts. The mormon church's 501c(3) has been jeopardized and they should start paying taxes like all other political entities....

[Lori B]

Is is fair for the Mormon church to be forced by law to open the temples or chapels to homosexual marriages? Homosexuality is condemned in the scriptures and the practice of it is against our religion. Our Church doesn't care if homosexuals have a legal union, but the church does have a problem when our religious freedom and rights are imposed upon, and that is exactly what legalizing gay marriage will do, by forcing our clergy to perform such "legal" marriages or lose their license. How about our rights to practice our beliefs and religion as we see fit? If people want to practice homosexuality, that's their business, but when it affects the rights of others, those affected have every right to oppose it. Why do they have to have legalized marriage anyway? A legal union gives them all the rights and privileges under the law. This is not a civil rights issue, it's a religious freedom issue, with once again the homosexuals not wanting just acceptance, but for society to condone and embrace it.

[Shell]

If Prop 8 was only for civil rights, shouldn't we ALL JOIN TOGETHER to just have "civil unions" redefined to give domestic partners the same rights as a "traditional marriage" spouse? That way, religious beliefs don't need to change and same-sex couples have the civil rights they are asking for. I think we should be fighting the government, not each other.

[Jim Kiely]

The argument isn't whether the Mormon Church or any other church, temple or mosque is good or bad. Within their own limited and irrational frameworks they all operate as they should. The argument is that, within our all-encompassing secular framework, lobbying by any religous institution makes it ineligible for tax exemption. It's about time people realize this and the government start acting in a matter-of-fact manner rather than turn its back on what is happening. I would add that, as members of a secular society, we have to be careful to turn the same legal screw on all religious institutions that violate lobbying proscriptions.

[Shannon]

even arguing about this is ridiculous. Whether you are mormon or not, isn't God suppose to be about love and honor thy neighbor...? Pretty sure people that have good hearts and do not judge will be invited into the pearly gates rather than people that hate and discriminate.

[John A.]

I just finished filing my complaint with the IRS to revoke the 501(c)(3) status of the LDS church and tax it as a 527 organization. I am making sure that everyone I know, across the country, does the same thing.

Granting equal marriage rights to LGBT persons in NO WAY would have compelled any religious body to sanction homosexuality, teach anything other than their church's doctrine regarding homosexuality, required churches to perform or recognize gay marriages within their religious bodies, etc. The LDS leaders KNOW THIS AND USED THESE AND OTHER SCURILOUS LIES TO STRIP LGBT PERSONS OF THEIR CIVIL RIGHTS. They did so knowingly, telling bald-faced lies (I guess lying is no longer unChristian) and used the medium of television, radio and newsprint. They paid for that advertising through raising funds through their membership, and reading letters from church leaders urging them to do so during worship services.

When they did that, they not only compromised their own beliefs (Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness Against Thy Neighbor) in order to secure their personal religious agenda, but they also BROKE THE LAW.

I and many in the LGBT community will not rest until they are made to pay for making a mockery of our laws and constitutional process with their slander and lies. THEY WILL LOSE THEIR TAX EXEMPT STATUS.

[Em in Nebraska]

Nobody's trying to overthrow anyone else's civil rights. The people of the LDS church, along with many other churches and organizations, have simply done an awesome job of standing up for what they believe is right and excercising freedom of speech and press and whatever else. The majority has spoken. That's what our government is about: by the people and for the people. The people have spoken. And by the majority voice, the law was passed.

[David Johnson]

The Mormon Church is not an official advocate of bigotry. And if their conception of "God" is a being of bigotry, then they need to alter their conception of "God." I would sooner donate money to see them lose their tax exempt status than to steal a most elemental right of two people to commit to one another.

[Jeff]

Send in an official complaint to have the LDS Church's tax-exempt status revoked!!!!

http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/

[P King]

Woot!

Can't wait to see the Mormons stripped of their tax exempt status!!

What's that old saying (from some book or somthing)? To paraphrase - Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.

Couldn't happen to nicer people either.

[Cynthia]

"Domestic partnerships are specifically designed for couples who are inherently incapable of procreation. Marriage is specifically designed for those who can."

What about straight people who are biologically incapable of procreating? Would you ban them from getting married? Didn't think so.

[Cynthia]

Also, as for the whole argument about children and family, I am a child. I am 15 years old and I, and almost every other child that I know - from around the world - was/is horrified by the passing of Proposition 8. So as for people who argue that "the children want marriage to remain between a man and a woman", NOT TRUE. What we want is equality and non-discrimination. Any two human beings can raise a child well, and the children of a gay couple will learn to be open-minded and learn the value of love unbiased by sexuality. I am straight, but I have friends and relatives who are gay and it pains me that a country based on the values of equality and justice would ban them the happiness that comes with a true marital union. To me, this parallels the oppression on African-Americans, women and interracial marriages that was controversial not too long ago, but is now almost universally recognized as wrong.

[Cynthia]

HAHA this is perfect -

Top 16 Reasons Why Gay Marriage is Wrong

16. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.

15. Gay culture is a new fad created by the liberal media to undermine long-standing traditions. We know this is true because gay sex did not exist in ancient Greece and Rome.

14. There are plenty of straight families looking to adopt, and every unwanted child already has a loving family. This is why foster care does not exist.

13. Conservatives know best how to create strong families. That is why it is not true that Texas and Mississippi have the highest teen birthrates, and Massachusetts, Vermont, and New Hampshire have the lowest. This is a myth spread by the liberal media.

12. Marriage is a religious institution, defined by churches. This is why atheists do not marry. Christians also never get a divorce.

11. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why our society has no single parents.

10. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

9. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.

8. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.

7. Gay marriage should be decided by the people and their elected representatives, not the courts. The framers checked the courts, which represent mainstream public opinion, with legislatures created to protect the rights of minorities from the tyranny of the majority. Interference by courts in this matter is inappropriate, just as it has been every time the courts have tried to hold back legislatures pushing for civil rights.

6. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.

5. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a different name are better, because "separate but equal" institutions are a good way to satisfy the demands of uppity minority groups.

4. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.

3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.

2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

1. Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.

[tim]

The Mormon Church argument about marriage being sacred is a big farce, since they believe the only marriage acceptable before their god is a marriage performed in the temple. To Mormon, a civil or any other religious marriage is a union, or contract that dissolves at death. But if the marriage is performed by a Mormon priesthood holder in the temple, then it becomes a celestial marriage. To Mormons, this celestial marriage is an eternal sacrament and the only path to becoming a god in the afterlife. Therefore all unsanctified marriages are obsolete. They must be sanctified within a temple to be bound in the hereafter; moreover, Mormons should not care about marriages performed outside their temple walls since they are not solemn or blessed.
Additionally to Mormons, marriage can even be seen as the cornerstone of their misogynist beliefs. For example, if a man marries in the temple for all time an eternity and his “celestial wife” should die, he is allowed to remarry, or be sealed to another woman in the temple. If that woman should die, he could do it again, and again, and again—being married for all eternity to all those women. Now, if a woman should marry in the temple, and her husband dies, she cannot remarry/ be sealed in a marriage ceremony to a new man for all eternity unless she seeks and receives a temple marriage annulment from the Mormon prophet. The woman is allowed to be married/sealed to ONLY one man while a man to as many women as possible. So is polygamy being practiced? Yes! Not on earth, but in the hereafter according to Mormon belief.
Good luck Mormon women sharing your sexist man in the hereafter, and way to go Mormon men—get that harem going in heaven—don’t forget to include a variety of blondes, brunettes and redheads for I am sure your women will look buxom, curvy, and delightsome in their celestial resurrected hot bodies—sisters, don’t forget to ask for celestial equality with your gods—have fun being one of many in a harem for all eternity.
All kidding aside, these are not lies but Mormon dogma.
This is Mormon belief on marriage – anyone whose marriage wasn’t sealed in a temple has a marriage that is terminated upon death. Therefore, preserving the sanctity of marriage could not possibly be the motivation for their protest for gay marriage leading to only one reason, bigotry. Mormons do not believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman, Mormons belief that marriage is between one man and many women. So why worry about anyone else’s marriage? According to their faith, none of our marriages (non-Mormon marriages) are valid either…So why JUST target gay marriage?

[Imotephe]

So this is how a democracy works. The losers threatening the winners win lawsuits, harm, federal investigations because they lost. Seems to me our liberal friends believe that democracy only exists one way: for them. We call it a dictatorship in other places. Bye and bye, for all you ranting and raving about church members donating against you, how do you think we feel having companies we work for donating for you? If anything it created a division in the work place and the marketplace. Why do you feel it is okay to accept campaign funds from corporations and church members for your cause but not okay for church members to oppose you? OH wait, that question was answered wasn't it? Only liberal values mean anything and count.

[Linda]

Most anti-gay-marriage folk seem to think that gay couples should be able to get all the legal benefits of straight couples, but are leery of using the word marriage. Let's go with the argument that civil unions infer all the same civil rights. Given that, there's a whole host of things that legal marriage gives to couples that civil unions don't. For example, a gay male couple with a civil union still has to pay their car insurance rates as two single males. Or, say one partner makes a lot of money, and the other doesn't. If the large paycheck is deposited by the first man, and the second withdraws it to pay the mortgage or the like every month, that's actually considered a gift and the second man must pay taxes on it. I don't think anyone would argue that allowing gay couples to pay the same car insurance rates as straight couples was in any way making marriage less sacred, but can we please, at the very least, make the civil unions legally equal to marriage before we get into semantics over who has the right to use which words?

[Tom in Calabasas]

I am a heterosexual 50 year old man, with 4 kids high school and middle school aged, and married for 20 years. Yet, I agree that, if the State is going to sanction something, then there is clearly an equality issue at stake. If the State keeps out of marriage altogether and leaves it to the religious organizations, then it is a non-issue. The State should exclusively perform Civil Unions and these should be for any couple regardless of gender (or chromosomal makeup -- more on that later). Churches and other religious organizations, on the otherhand, should be free to perform "marriages" and should be allowed to adhere to the principals set forth in their religion. If a church wants to perform exclsuively Christian/Christian or Jewish/Jewish or Muslim/Muslim or Hetero/Hetero marriages, then so be it. If another church chooses to perform exclusively gay marriages, then so be it. But the State should be out of the religious moralizing business.

I also see other slippery slopes on this whole same sex marriage issue, especially when it becomes the thing of legistaltive doctrine. First, where is the line drawn? When is the sex the same? When two individuals have the same gender specific organs? Does this mean that when one of these individuals has had a sex change operation, then they also are allowed to be wed in what, based on chromosome composition, would otherwise be a same sex marriage? What of newborns with hermaphroditic conditions, where the sex may be determined surgically? What restrictions are placed on these people who had no say so in the matter? Or those with certain 'Y' chromosomal defects? Or those who simply knew all their lives that they were a women in a man's body or the opposite and they elect to have "corrective" surgery? Shall they be denied the right to marry? Shouldn't consenting and informed adults be allowed to make their own spousal choices?

Finally, I think the most compelling argument against Prop 8 is the fact that the vast majority of marriages in the United States end in divorce. Clearly even the heterosexuals do not demonstrate their own belief in the sanctity of marriage. If they did they would be spending their energies on pre-marital couple education, marriage counseling, and other activities which would drive down the incredible divorce rate. Isn't it hipocritical to deny others couples who love each other the right to marry when the existing married population does not even believe in the insitution itself? Actions speak louder than words. Pop 8 supporters should first prove they actually willing to live by their wedding vows before they deny others the right to engage in them.

Just one happily married man's views.

[Jeff Green]

For those who claim to be so worried about the sanctity of marriage, let's ban the 50% divorce rate and make it a criminal offense to cheat on your spouse. I have been in a monogamous, loving relationship with my partner for 17 years and will be for eternity. I am disgusted with these hypocrites who speak of such worry for this sacred institution and then behave differently. I am a huge supporter of Obama and he called us all to our higher angels, not this bigotry. We are a better World when nobody is oppressed and those in the Black community, of all peoples, should have learned that lesson. Hatred eventually loses out as we saw on Tuesday and maybe we just have to wait for the older, hate filled generation to die off.

[RickinLA]

As a gay man who has lived with my partner for 24 years in a loving committed relationship, I would like to go on record to say that GBLT persons do not need marriage. I firmly believe that we should have civil unions that would provide the same rights and benefits as marriage but would be carried out in government offices. If a certain religious denomination wants to accommodate civil unions by performing them in their churches that is fine. Let the church make its own decision. Marriage has way too much religious association and I, for one, have no need of the prejudice and hypocrisy that is prevalent in most religions today. As long as I have the same rights as a tax paying citizen as "married" couples have who cares by what name it prevails? This is an easily fixed issue that is generating way too much hatred on the part of both parties.

[tim]

Mormons, you lost my respect. You attacked a minority group to discriminate and defend your objections to gays for being/ existing. The fact is you would have had my respect if you voted No on Prop 8 and defended someone else’s right to marry. In 1890, your fourth prophet Wilfred Woodruff, the same who took a bullet for Joseph Smith was forced by federal law to stop practicing polygamy, if he did not, all your lands and temples would have been confiscated by the government. Only when all your religious leaders were hunted down and locked up because polygamy was unconstitutional did the Mormons surrender their open practice of polygamy. Of all the organized religions, Mormons should have been the first to support and protect Gay rights, since they knew and know how it feels to be persecuted. But no, you did not defend the underdog. The Mormon way of life is a belief, while homosexuality is not a belief, but a state of being: a human being who is not accepted by the Mormons.

[Lubosh]

Our forefathers wrote into the constitution for the separation of church and state for just this reason. The church has no role in government and this certainly includes promoting opinions and/or organizing campaigns to defeat or pass any law or support or oppose any candidate for public office.

[Get your facts straight]

Marraige didn't start in a courthouse it started with religion

Tim
I wasn't planning on writing anything to anyone but man you are so way off on your history it is rediculous. I'm not interested in writing a history lesson. I don't quite understand why polygamy is being brought up. Just so you know it was only practiced out of safety and protection of the woman and children of the church who's husbands and fathers were murdered due to persecution. It was only practiced for a time, it is not abnormal in the bible, only 3% of church members practiced it at any given time, it was not illegal when it was established in the church, and the practiced ceased because it wasn't necessary anymore and the church wanted to form the territory it settled into a state.

on the subject of prop 8 The Church did join a broad based coaltion in support of Prop 8. The church did not financially fund the yes campaign on prop 8. It had members who made donations. Just like many people in Hollywood donated money to vote No. You don't see people on actors front lawns or spray painting studio gates(like protestors have done to our temple gates).

The church made it very clear to members that it supports traditional marraige but members could vote according to their own personal beliefs on the issue. Our church does not teach or contain any doctrine alluding to the idea that Homosexuals are going to hell(as taught by some other christian religions) or deserve less rights. Our church teaches people to love and respect individuals despite their differences. That's why they had to come out and make a clear message to members where the church stands because many members were not sure. This is not seen by the church as a civil rights issue it is seen as a Freedom of Religion issue. Did you ever think that maybe this did bring to memory their prior fight for religious freedom and they were trying to protect their rights that so many men died for.

Marraige did not start in a court house it started with religion. Rights have been given to married couples I understand why Homosexual couples would want those rights. I have friends and family who are gay. I want to see them happy and repected and I want to see the rights of religion respected also. Why not expand the rights of Civil Union to meet the needs of Homosexual couples but allow churches to keep their rights to religious freedom.

By the way I've often found that when you are accusing a person of prejiduce you are often guilty of it yourself. It seems that a lot of churches in California have been put under attack to the point that police have been called on specific occassions to protect the buildings and members. Sounds like harrassment and persecution to me.

Calling people bigots because they have different views and then using fear
and prejiduce to fight them is hypocritical don't you think.

[LDO]

Prop 8 Supporters, I'm still waiting on a reply that states why you think it's ok to deny gay people civil rights that would be afforded to them by marriage, but not by civil unions. You keep saying they have the same rights, but obviously they don't (look at my post up there for the list of examples). So get a new argument and respond to mine while you're at it. Or else you'll just keep sounding like an idiot. Thanks.

And here's something fun. Thank God for the Bible and the rules therein!!!

Dear Calif​ornia​ Conse​rvati​ves and Prop 8 Suppo​rters​,​​

Thank​ you for remin​ding us to obey God'​​s Law.

I have learn​ed a great​ deal from you and under​stand​ why you
suppo​rt a const​ituti​onal amend​ment to ban same-​​sex
marri​age.​
​

As you said,​​ "In the eyes of God marri​age is
based​ betwe​en a man a woman​.​"

I try to share​ your knowl​edge with as many peopl​e as I
can.

When someo​ne tries​ to defen​d homos​exual​
relat​ionsh​ips,​​ I simpl​y remin​d them that Levit​icus
18:​​22 clear​ly state​s it to be an abomi​natio​n.​
​
End of debat​e.​
​
I do need some advic​e from you, howev​er,​​ regar​ding
some other​ eleme​nts of God'​​s Law and how to follo​w
them.​
​
1. Levit​icus 25:​​44 state​s that I may posse​ss slave​s,​​ both
male and femal​e,​​ provi​ded they are purch​ased from
neigh​borin​g natio​ns.​
​
A frien​d of mine claim​s that this appli​es to Mexic​ans,​​ but not Canad​ians.​
​
Can you clari​fy?​​
Why can'​​t I own Canad​ians?​​

2. I would​ like to sell my daugh​ter into slave​ry,​​ as
sanct​ioned​ in Exodu​s 21:​​7.​
​
In this day and age, what
do you think​ would​ be a fair price​ for her?

3. I know that I am allow​ed no conta​ct with a woman​
while​ she is in her perio​d of menst​rual uncle​annes​s -
Lev. 15:​​19-​​24.​
​
The probl​em is how do I tell?​​ I have
tried​ askin​g,​​ but most women​ take offen​se.​
​
4. When I burn a bull on the altar​ as a sacri​fice,​​ it
creat​es a pleas​ing odor for the Lord - Lev.​​1:​​9.​
​
The probl​em is with my neigh​bors.​
​They claim​ the odor is not pleas​ing to them.​
​Shoul​d I smite​ them?​​

5. I have a neigh​bor who insis​ts on worki​ng on the
Sabba​th.​
​
Exodu​s 35:2 clear​ly state​s he shoul​d be put
to death​.​

​Am I moral​ly oblig​ated to kill him mysel​f,​​
or shoul​d I ask the polic​e to do it?

6. A frien​d of mine feels​ that even thoug​h eatin​g
shell​fish is an abomi​natio​n - Lev. 11:​​10,​​ it is a
lesse​r abomi​natio​n than homos​exual​ity.​​ I don'​​t agree​.​
​
Can you settl​e this?​​ Are there​ '​​degre​es'​​ of
abomi​natio​n?​​

7. Lev.21:​​20 state​s that I may not appro​ach the altar​
of God if I have a defec​t in my sight​.​
​
I have to admit​ that I wear readi​ng glass​es.​
​Does my visio​n have to be
20/​​20,​​ or is there​ some wiggl​e-​​room here?​​

8. Most of my male frien​ds get their​ hair trimm​ed,​​
inclu​ding the hair aroun​d their​ templ​es,​​ even thoug​h
this is expre​ssly forbi​dden by Lev. 19:​​27.​
​
How shoul​d they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:​​6-​​8 that touch​ing the skin of a
dead pig makes​ me uncle​an,​​ but may I still​ play
footb​all if I wear glove​s?​​

10. My uncle​ has a farm.​​ He viola​tes Lev.19:​​19 by
plant​ing two diffe​rent crops​ in the same field​,​​ as
does his wife by weari​ng garme​nts made of two
diffe​rent kinds​ of threa​d (​​cotto​n/​​polye​ster blend​)​​.​
​
He also tends​ to curse​ and blasp​heme a lot.

Is it reall​y neces​sary that we go to all the troub​le of getti​ng the whole​ neigh​borho​od toget​her to stone​ them?​​ Lev.​24:​​10-​​16.​
​
Could​n'​​t we just burn them to death​ at a
priva​te famil​y affai​r,​​ like we do with peopl​e who
sleep​ with their​ in-​​laws?​​ (​​Lev.​20:​​14)​​

11.I would​ like to take on a secon​d wife and maybe​ a
few concu​bines​,​​ if I can scrap​e enoug​h money​ toget​her.​
​
Are you propo​sing an amend​ment to ban compu​lsory​
monog​amy?​​

I know you have studi​ed these​ thing​s exten​sivel​y and
thus posse​ss consi​derab​le exper​tise in such matte​rs,​​
so I am confi​dent you can help.​
​

Thank​ you again​ for
remin​ding us that God'​​s word is etern​al and
uncha​nging​,​​ and that our const​ituti​on and laws ought​
to enfor​ce it.

Since​rely,​​

Joe Chris​tian-​​Ameri​can

[Marcus]

As a happily married hetero white non Californian agnostic male this story and the postings on this blog are an amazing example of how centuries after the founding of this nation we still fail to live up to the ideal of liberty and justice for all.

A basic review of history shows that marriage existed before any of the monotheistic religions so any arguments that marriage is a sacred bond only between a man and woman in the eyes of god are not accurate. In ancient Greece and early Roman societies it was simply a verbal agreement between both parties. Same sex marriage wasn't deemed "illegal" until the year 342 by a christian emperor of course. Spend some time learning the real history of marriage and it is obvious that the church seized control of the institution in the period between 1500-1700.

History has not been kind to blended church/state governments that gave birth to the crusades, interdenominational wars, inquisitions, burning of witches, heretics, ect. That is why our nations founders elected to build a wall of separation between church and state to avoid this situation from happening here. The religious right is working hard to break down that wall but as they are about to find out that wall was also put there for their protection too. The LDS church should and probably will lose their tax exempt status because of their activities on the other side of the wall of separation. Churches need to realize their influence is limited to their members only if they expect to survive.

If I was a person affected by prop 8 I would take a look at article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights: it says "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family". It says men and women, not a man and a woman. It would appear that California is guilty of a human rights violation in the eyes of the United Nations.

[Abby]

A licence is a document to be validated by the government....a marriage licence is something every american deserves rights to. A civil marriage is not a religious or celestial marriage.

Define: Civil Marriage: A marriage performed by a government official instead of by a member of the clergy.

(SEE WHAT I AM SAYING)

Regligion aside, the governing laws of our country are SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE...whether people agree or disaggree with same-sex marriage is irrelevant because a religion marriage is not what a civil marriage constists of.

Democracy - a true democracy does not take away the right to a minority group of people...especially after they were given to them by the california govt. in the first place.

Mormons have every right to believe what they believe...and they can believe that gay people will burn in help..etc... but legally, there is no logical reason behind this.

[bsam]

I am not a Morman,but I will say thankyou to the Morman Church for standing up for what is right- marrige is between one man and one woman. It is somthing totally different than 2 women or 2 men, maybe you could come up with a really cute name all your own.It's ok to be different -just don't try to pretend to be the same.Come on people be proud of who you are.

[E Stockman]

Let's come together. Equal Rights for Marriage and Civil Union.

I'm writing this because civil rights were the only issue I could see for a long time when discussing prop 8. I began to give the other side the benefit of the doubt and listen. In doing so I began to understand that most people who support prop 8 don't want to prevent anyone from Civil rights they just want their rights protected as well. Everyone needs to let go of whether or not they think another person's religious beliefs are ridiculous. That is completely irrelevant. There are so many faiths out there, Christian and Non-Christian, that are wonderful faiths and no one can easily understand them all. We can be thankful that regardless we are able to practice religion or not practice religion freely in this country. Freedom of religion is an awesome thing.
You may ask, what rights are they talking about? They're all religious zealots. Some may be, but their rights to religious freedom are important too. I'm going to give you a little info to think about. Try to give it fair consideration.
The Majority of our early immigrants came here due to religious intolerance.
In 1685 the Edict of Nantes (which allowed religious freedom in France) was revoked by the new king of France and any one practicing a faith other than the King's faith was put to death. My family has record of a man from our family history baking a bible in a loaf of bread when they were arresting (and in some cases executing) people for having their own bibles. This is an example of government controlling religion by telling people what religion they are allowed to practice and even religious text they were allowed to own.
In 1532(there about) King Henry the eighth had a hand in forming the Church of England due to the Catholic church not allowing him a divorce to his present wife ,Queen Katharine. This is an obvious attempt by religion to control government which King Henry the eighth ultimately took care of.
There are endless examples like these throughout history, where Church and State clash on both hands. This is one of the beauties of our country. We have freedom of religion. We also have the separation of Church and State. That doesn't mean just a separation of Church from State but also State from Church. In other words it goes both ways.
I grew up with a few gay friends, to say the least. I was in complete support of "No" on Prop 8 and then I realized that marriage like it or not started as a religious doctrine. Then the scary thought came to my mind of the Pandora's Box that would open up if Prop 8 didn't pass. I also know that we can't pick and choose which citizens deserve certain rights. Civil Union does not give couples the same rights as Marriage. The union of Marriage has been around much longer than Civil Union. There has been far more time to give marriage the rights it has. In my opinion same sex couples should be fighting for equal rights to be awarded to Civil Union as has been awarded to marriage. Civil Union Weddings can be performed. Just leave the religious nature of marriage to religion. We have got to come together and quit attacking each other.
When we start redefining religious doctrine we are interfering with religious freedom. I have always been taught and will teach my own children to respect someone regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality, and yes religious preference. Like it or not deep rooted faith in religious beliefs motivated many people to migrate here in the first place, it has motivated soldiers to fight our wars, and even our founding fathers are recorded making reference to God when discussing the writing of the Constitution. If anyone wants examples I have them.
Civil rights are an obvious importance. There is no denying that. Religious freedom is important too. Let's find a way to observe both Rights and work together to find a solution.
Thanks ---E Stockman for a more unified nation

[Sarah]

To: Joe Christian-American: Read the New Testament. Many of the Laws you write about are clarified. However, with that said, God's laws are eternal, not necessarily always literal. At the time of the Old Testament, some things were different. They didn't have refrigeration, for example (pork handling). I could go on and on. And, many of us out there still choose not to work on Sunday (still), but don't find it necessary to be Judge, Jury and Executioner of those that don't. It's still okay to do our best and to follow the Commandments. They have not been revoked. Being our best is just simply okay. As far as I can tell, the instructions regarding marriage and homosexuality were not time sensitive (Old Testament). In fact, there are problems with anyone that does follow this lifestyle, despite scriptural instruction, i.e., disease, earlier death rates, inability to have children and the list can go on. The problem that I have with this lifestyle personally is that I do not appreciate the lifestyle that is being portrayed as "normal" and being continuously pushed into my schools, neighborhoods and political system where my children are seeing it. Sometimes it is just downright vivid, pushy and brings up questions children don't need to be asking at young ages. There's an agenda out there, no matter what anyone says to the contrary, and I, as a mother, do not appreciate it. I have every intention of raising children in a happy, healthy homosexual-free home no matter what agendas are out there. They do not need it. If that means homeschooling, so be it. I want them to live longer, happier and free of disease and heartache. Thank goodness there are still people taking a stand.

[LDO]

A big LOL to you, Sarah. I'm really hoping you were being sarcastic, because your post really made me laugh.

If not...well...I like how you pick and choose which laws you follow from the Bible. I especially enjoy how you say there are "problems" with people who are gay (diseases, mortality rates, inability to have children). Wow. What a smite by God!

But...what about those children who have cancer, or those that get killed in car accidents, or those that are sterile? All of them must be gay!! The world makes a lot more sense now. Get rid of the gays, and get rid of the world's "problems!"

Wouldn't it suck for you if your children were gay (and before you deny it as a possibility, remember that many parents are shocked to find their children are gay, and you could very well be one of them). Sad to tell you, but if they are gay, homeschooling won't change that. Neither will shielding them from gay people walking down the street. They'll just be gay, regardless of what you do, and I guess that means they'll "die young, miserable, and with a disease." But I suppose you wouldn't care, because being gay is a sin anyway, so they'd probably deserve it.

[KJK]

When my right to practice my religious beliefs as I see fit is not jeopardized by your desire to use the word ‘marriage’ in your right to be joined by law to someone else, then I will be silent.

[Heather]

Taliban control in the USA? The taliban permit more than one wife, then men are allowed to treat them anyway they want. No the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not the taliban......In fact, it was the members of the church, not the church, putting up the donations for Prop 8. We should be grateful for the freedoms we have in our country. That a presidential election can occur and the presidential office can transfer without bloodshed.

I believe we will lose our country if we do not adhere to God's commandments. ANYONE having sexual intercourse outside of marriage is not obeying God. A husband who has an extramarital affair, a single woman and single man, and also two men or two women. All examples of sexual sin. The LDS church does not punish anyone for being a homosexual or heterosexual. The problem occurs in God's eyes when sexual sin occurs.

[HubFreeman]

The Mormon retreat on Proposition 8 is very revealing! The Mormon vote may indeed have only been 2% of California voters…and Hitler and Osama Bin Laden are only 2 people in the world’s history – hate has a monumental impact!

Mormon’s and Catholic’s – how does it feel to be part of a persecuted minority?

[Kate]

@ HubFreeman

Hmmmmmm...I wonder if the Mormon Church has ever been a persecuted minority before...? You may want to read up on the history of the LDS faith if you think we don't know what it's like to be persecuted.

[Negar]

Here is my concern Mormons. I read what Elder Oaks has to say on Prop. 8 and that you recognize him as an apostle and that he speaks on behalf of the church as a general authority, but his word is not the supreme word for your church—it an opinion, nothing more. Who declares church doctrine is your prophet, Thomas S. Monson; therefore, until the presidency, and more specifically, the prophet says. “thus says the lord, Gay-Marriage is wrong” then and only then does it become a mute issue. But you act as if your prophet made that declaration—he has not.
If you believe that every priesthood holder has the right and the duty to judge and pray for personal revelation, then why do you follow so blindly?
Mormons, you might believe that Monson doesn’t speak out “because gay marriage is obviously wrong,” but gay marriage is not a church issue, but a personal issue. If the full quorum of the 12 unanimously supports Elder Oaks, you have a problem—your 12 then they are in opposition to your prophet. Only one man/ Apostle and a Seventy who is legal counsel for the church, who recently and publicly spoke out. If there are more, it still does not matter until your prophet speaks out. Legal counsel, Seventy’s and Apostles’ opinions does not constitute church doctrine, nor are they speaking as a quorum. When one man/ Apostle speaks, at best it is church teaching/ preaching, a member’s opinion, which Oaks’ bases on his understanding of the compilation of church teaching, which amounts to an outburst that is not fully blessed/ sanctioned by the unanimous decision of the quorum of the 12 apostles, or the prophet. Therefore, does that not mean you follow blindly, forsaking your free agency, conscience, personal revelation? Following blindly is the greatest sin—it’s mob thinking. The same mob thinking that drove Mormons from, Kirtland, and Jackson County Missouri; the same mob thinking that violated 2 amendments rights of the freedom of the press by destroying The Nauvoo Expositor, a newspaper, which led the martyring of your prophet, Joseph Smith at Cartridge. It was this same mob thinking that drove the saints from Nauvoo Illinois, and this same mob thinking has your children carrying Prop. 8 signs like mob torches that preach hate. Remember it is t hate that killed off all the Nephites, not sexual sin, the same hate that killed the people of Jared. If you think your apostles can’t guide you astray, look at your early church history:
The 1st and 2nd Elders of your church who received the Melchizedek priesthood from the original 12 apostles: Peter, James, and John were Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith, who was killed, and the 2nd Elder Oliver Cowdery, you excommunicated.
Of your original 12 apostles, 7 of the 12 were excommunicated, two were killed, and one dropped from the quorum, and only 2 remained faithful.
Here are your first 12 apostles:
1. Lyman E. Johnson: Excommunicated
2. Brigham Young
3. Heber C. Kimball
4. Orson Hyde: Dropped from the Quorum
5. David W. Patten: Killed in 1838
6. Luke S. Johnson: Excommunicated
7. William E. M'Lellin: Excommunicated
8. John f. Boynton: Excommunicated
9. Orson Pratt: Excommunicated
10.William Smith: Excommunicated
11. Thomas P. Marsh: Excommunicated (President of the Quorum)
12. Parley P. Pratt, Assassinated in 1887
Why doesn’t your church teach this? Church myth want you to believe the 12 are infallible, but they are not. They do make mistakes. That is why it teaches that each priesthood holder must guide his household and not follow blindly. Until Thomas Monson declares to oppose gay marriage, you are required to make it a personal issue and not act as a mob. Think about the harm you have done to your church. It will always now be known by your actions—your fruits. "Whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God” (D&C 49:15). Therefore are you doing God’s work? Is it inspiration or sinspiration that causes you to act? Act with love and as individuals, not as a mob. “And He answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself” Luke 10: 27. “If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 1 John. 4: 20. If you love someone, you help them, cloth them, feed them, not take/ steal what is theirs—their right to marry.

[HS]

If you think that LDS people hate anyone who is different you don't know anything about this faith.

We have absolutely no hateful doctrine about anyone of another faith, race, gender, and or sexual orientation. We are one of the only christian faiths that doesn't teach damnation to homosexuals.

The LDS support of prop 8 had strictly to do with the deep belief in the sacred nature of marraige. It had nothing to do with hate or prejiduce. we would like to see couples regardless of sexual orientation have the same rights that marraige affords. Just leave marraige out of it. If civil rights are what you want lets expand the rights of Civil Union.

None of us expect anyone to understand our doctrine. There is nothing wrong with our members standing up for what they believe. We should all do so but respect the opinion of others in the process.

I do think it's amazing That people are well aware of our support of prop 8 but have no idea the immense humanitarian support our church gives world wide. If you had any idea you would know that we are not a people of hate.

The election is over. Please lets find a posotive solution.

[JT]

I find it ironic that the Mormon church espouses such a "deep belief in the sacred nature of marriage," when the same religion supported polygamy for so many years. Gays guys can't get married once, but straight guys can get married as many times as they want? Sounds like a double standard to me...

[lessismore]

Adam and Eve did not marry, Eve was part Adams body adn they procreated to begin the human race as we know it (in Scripture)

How many people in this fat globe can we take now, in 2008? committed people should be applauded, not outlawed.

[David]

As an ex-communicated Mormon man, who is gay, I find the irony of the argumments against gay marriage tawdry and weak. Many of the commentors here have made the arguments very eloquently and touche!

Yet, I would like to add something else to this mix - the notion that Churches could be sued for declining to perform a gay marriage is nonsense - to begin with, I doubt very seriously any gay/lesbian person would be a member of such a church to begin with and secondly it smacks of a superior attitude that many self-righteous people seem to want to perpetrate.

Secondly, the argument that schools would be allowed and required to teach about gay marriage in California is utter nonsense, since schools by law in California are already prevented from teaching anything about gay marriage.

Finally, if someone is opposed to gay marriage, then there is nothing saying they are required to attend a gay marriage or have anything to do with the ceremony.

I have little doubt that Prop 8 will be struck-down in the courts, which I am certain will infuriate the Prop 8 supporters. Our system of government has three branches of government - Executive, Legislative, and Judicial - each with their own governing abilities. It is the Judicial branch of government to rule on the Constitutionality of laws and obviously Prop 22 came under this jurisdiction, since the California Constituion clearly was upheld by this ruling.

[Niego]

Here is the problem, you (Mormons) paint the Gay Community with a single brush; saying what they do is a sin when the majority of the heterosexual community say it is love between consenting adults. So, with that same brush you paint them, I’ll paint you.
You say, “look at our works, judge us as individuals” (paint, paint, paint) but you act like a mob with Prop. 8 torches and your good fruit rots on the grafted tree of Christianity.
Thus the conclusion is simple; Mormons hate. (paint, paint, paint)
What the gay community wants is what they had and was stolen by you—the right to marry. You hold onto marriage rights like “the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do” but it is what comes out of you, that defiles you, a people of whited sepulchures. (paint, paint, paint)
Besides, what makes you owner of this word: marriage? Should we qualify and quantify the word use of “God” or for that matter, any other word. But now you are getting nitpicky and talking semantics like Pharisees, why—because your fanatical prejudice has no logical standing point except hatred. Your lovelessness suppresses your empathy and your celestial beliefs about marriages do not fall within the norm.
But what most disturbing is your mindlessness. Your apostles speak out and like disturbed insects you act out in frenzy, stinging like hornets. Your mob madness makes you not normal, far from the norm…and your deviance has become a problem. You cry out and say, “Mormons have done a marvelous work and a wonder among the people.” Well, the Gays are people—what did you do for them?
You say you don’t have hate—then I ask. Where is your compassion?
Didn’t your Jesus turn over the money tables in the temple for making his Father’s house a den of thieves—guess what? You have mired your temples in the same manner. Guess what your lighted sacred temples on hill looks like now? Like graffiti, that reads: Den of Bigots, Hypocrites and Thieves. Yes, thieves: you stole someone rights to be happy, to be protected under the law—to marry.

[Michael Piacentini]

To Singermom, yes indeed children do soooooooo much better in a home with a mom and a dad. Especially when the mom is a crackwhore and the dad is a wife beater and has been in prison 7 times for selling drugs. This is clearly infinitely better than having two moms who are corporate lawyers, volunteer at the local soup kitchen and are class moms twice a week despite their busy schedules. Their children are well fed, well dressed, well educated and well cared for. Clearly this two mom parented is soooooo much less desirable than the parental situation with the violent drug users. Come on...use the brain that God gave you. It has nothing to do with the sex of the parents, it has to do with the love and care that they show their children. Clearly for you, heterosexuality is more important than the welfare of children. You should be ashamed of yourself for such thoughtless comments.

[lionel]

Civil rights issue?

Wouldn't a Black peson know a civil rights issue when they saw one? 70%
decided that gay marriage is not a civil rights issue, or if it was, one which
did not merit their 'no' vote.

Prop 8 was a social issue. Now, losers, get back to petitioning the IRS to
revoke the tax exemption of the Mormon Church. While you're at it,
go after the Catholic Church too. It'll never work. Prop 8 is a political
issue, not a candidate!!!! You gays kill me.

[blue]

God did not make adam and steve, nor did He make amy and eve. there was a man and a woman in the garden of eden. Adam and Eve!!!!! Think about it!!

[Sobe]

This has to be the lowest that the Mormon church has ever sunk!! All churches, as a matter of fact! Times like these I'm glad I'm atheist. I'm not a brain washed, ignorant fool!!

[Sobe]

Maybe you should take a course on anthropology. Fist of all, there is no scientific proof that "Adam and Eve" ever existed and second, say it is true, Cain and Abel would have had to have sex with Eve to reproduce. Isn't incest against religion? Gross!!! if having sex with your own mother, accepted why is same sex marriage so taboo??

[Sobe]

Think about that!!

[Dave]

"This is Mormon belief on marriage – anyone whose marriage wasn’t sealed in a temple has a marriage that is terminated upon death. " Yeah, us Mormon's declaring that your marriage ends at death, how rude. Except for that whole "Until death do you part" clause that YOU throw on the end. But yeah, make us out to be bigots. Don't worry, we're used to persecution.

"I find it ironic that the Mormon church espouses such a 'deep belief in the sacred nature of marriage,' when the same religion supported polygamy for so many years."
Yeah, I never thought about it this way either. A church that has already been persecuted for THEIR belief about marriage, is now being accused of persecution. I mean sure, they were killed, beaten, and driven from their homes. There was a standing extermination order against Mormons in Missouri until 1976. And you were... outvoted. Wow, that's harsh. Now you have to... not get the tax benefits of marriage. How will you ever survive? It's totally comparable to what the Mormon's went through. Blame them.

And, why are you singling out the mormons? 70% of blacks voted against it too. And then you sit there accusing Mormon's of singling out gay marriage. But hey, we're easy targets. And you won't get called racist for blaming us, so why not, right?

[Wigwamigea]

My question would be why gays would want a church to be married at? Aren't all churches against gay marriage? The only thing I see as a marriage is a peice of paper saying so, jewerly of some sort, and tax legal purposes. So if your not in it for tax-legal purposes, why not just do what you need to do, live like how you want. Or then, Create your own church. ?

[Casey Younger]

Whether or not I feel marriage is meant to be between a man and a woman, denying same sex marriage is taking away people's right to choose. One of the largest points our faith is built upon is our agency. To deny one their agency is to partake in Lucifer's plan for us. Remember that Jesus' plan was for us to have the ability to choose for ourselves. Rather than fighting over the legal definition of an 8 letter word, I feel the wasted 40 million dollars would be best spent in Africa feeding the hungry and treating people with T.B. and AIDS.

[Reese]

First and for most church and state are supposed to be separate. How I feel on this situation is that the mormon churches that supported this act of inequality should lose their tax exempts.

If you are going to get into the political arena and you are going to disobey the IRC section 501 (c)(3) which clearly states that any religious group or church is absolutely prohibited from supporting any political campaign, then you should be forced to pay taxes like the rest of america.

There was a time when blacks and whites could not marry because it was seen as immoral by these disgusting religious groups. Now they feel the right to deny another group over 1,400 rights that heterosexuals can get just by taking a quick trip to Las Vegas?

It's absolutely ridiculous what religious groups are doing to the United States of America. We are all people and we all deserve equal rights.

[jamal]

gay marriage takes rights away. Every child has a right to a mother and father. Please stand up and protect that right. Thanks for all churches that will stand up. Who cares about critisim and name calling, do whats right!