Two O.C. pastors challenge IRS rules from the pulpit

Two religious leaders from Orange County were among the dozens of pastors across the United States who preached politics from the pulpit on Sunday, hoping to become the basis of an IRS test case on the ban against politicking from the pulpit.

Though they didn't explicitly name candidates' names — except for the Rev. Wiley S. Drake, who asked his Buena Park parishioners to vote for him — the pastors instructed listeners to judge the candidates by the Bible and Christian scripture, and to vote accordingly. 

Our own Bob Pool and My-Thuan Tran attended the services:

Pastor Stephen B. Orman urged those attending his Warner Avenue Baptist Church service in Huntington Beach to use the Bible as a voters' guide and evaluate candidates and issues on the basis of Christian scripture.

The Rev. Wiley S. Drake suggested that those at his First Southern Baptist Church in Buena Park vote for him -- and for his presidential running mate on the American Independent Party ticket, Alan Keyes.

Drake asked his congregation to support the challenge to the federal ban on political campaigning by nonprofit groups.

"I am angry because the government and the IRS and some Christians have taken away the rights of pastors," Drake said to about 45 people at his service. "I have a right to endorse anybody I doggone well please. And if they don't like that, too bad."

While pastors aren't prohibited from political speech-making, doing so can put their tax-exempt status in jeopardy. More details (and a poll) in the full story here.

— Veronique de Turenne

Photo: The Rev. Wiley S. Drake prays with  a parishioner. Credit: Annie Wells / Los Angeles Times

Comments

[captainkona]

These are not men of God. They're political hacks disguised as preachers.
They're in it for the money from jump, the politics is just another way they've found to line their pockets.

Remove their tax exempt status until they learn what it means to be an American.

[Thomas]

Nobody has taken away their "rights".. we've just said if you're going to be political then you're going to pay taxes like everyone else. In reality they should be paying taxes anyways! Imagine the effect these idiot preachers could have on their congregations if they focused on religion as much as they do on politics!

[Daniel]

Jesus was a liberal. If people use what Jesus said as a voters' guide and evaluate candidates and issues on the basis of Christian scripture, they will vote for the Democrats.

[John]

What does O.C. stand for?

[Saint Michael Traveler]

An individual’s political activism and religious activism may be a continuum of self, but a religious organization must limit itself only to religion. “My kingdom is not of this world." Jesus said.

First Amendment right allows me to say whatever I want to say. But would I bee a pastor or Rabi, then could my political concerns be just my politics? Because of my religious position, anything I would share would be conceived as an extension of my religious leadership. This would be unacceptable.

Separation of Church and State only relates to the action of the government and thus it could be argued it would not be applicable to political activism of religious institutions. But, I greatly support our secular government; otherwise we could have been forced to abide by theocratic concepts for the government such as those practiced in Muslim state of Saudi Arabia or Jewish state of Israel.

Should politics be preached from a pulpit? No!

[Lionel B Dyck]

The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says (in part) "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, ...". This would seem to anyone with any common sense who read it that the Congress and in turn the IRS can not make any law or rule or regulation respecting any establishment of religion. Thus these pastors are correct and the Law preventing them from speaking about politics is unconstitutional.

[BJ McQueary]

Every person in America has the right to freedom of speech. It's the law and I'm sick of hearing those trying to silence anyone. You can believe the wind is God and Hell is where you want to be if you want. You can believe God is in heaven and that's where you want to go. You can say Vote for McCain or Obama, it's our rights and lots of us are sick of you trying to control us. Stop saying what you are saying then too, like for us to be silent. Lady Liberty is not in balance.

[Dan]

The IRS should take away their tax-exempt status, then they can recommend whomever they want.

[oscar]

i agree..just take away their tax exempt status... then they can say whatever they want!

[Sam McFarland]

I am very happy for ministers to share their politics from their pulpits. But if they do, their churches' should be willing to give up their tax-exempt status. That general rule that applies to all organizations -- advocacy for a candidate and tax exemption are mutually exclusive, as they should be in a democracy.

But, in truth, I don't think churches should be tax exempt, anyway. The separation of church and state is a myth as long as the state underwrites religion by exempting it from its rightful share of the tax burden.

[Jerry]

Does O C in the article specify Orange County?
Thanks

[Dave]

If they pay taxes, like I do, they can endorse anyone they want...

[Bo]

What are they whining about? No one is taking away their choices. They can have their tax deferment or they can endorse candidates. It has always been a choice available to them.

They should abide by the agreement they made when they accepted the tax exemption or they should give up their tax endorsement.

What's the problem?

[James]

I dont recall this much talk about tax exempt status when democrats have speeches in churches. Democrats dont want Pastors or the Christian right the ability to speak. I'm glad we have a constitution and the republicans who know what it says. Socialism and darwinianism are the basis for society failure.

[Paul Svec]

I firmly believe that these pastors and their congregations should follow their stated beliefs, if not their conciences, and say and preach whatever they want to in their churches. If that happens to include using their pulpits as politcal podiums, so be it. Just don't ask me to pay for it!

You can't be tax free and ignore the separation of church and state. So take your pick pastors, religion or politics. Let's see if your beliefs are as important as your bank accounts.

[Shripathi Kamath]

Lionel B Dyck , BJ McQueary,

The issue is not one of freedom of speech. Pastors Wiley and co. have the right to exercise their right.

They cannot however receive tax exempt status if they do so against the IRS code.

Just like I have a right to freedom of speech, but I cannot decry my employer according to my work contract and remain employed.

If you do not like an example from the private sector, think of my freedom of speech as I stand outside your house on public streets and yell that you are a narrow minded bigot.

[tedchyn]

Mr. Drake is entitled to endorse anyone he wish. Giving up tax exempt status if you feel so strong about your GOD. You can not have cake and eat it too - remember your Jesus.

[Brian Smith]

This is not a free speech issue. Pastors have a right to say anything they like or endorse anyone they like. However, they also forfeit their right to be a tax exempt organization. They have the choice.

[Mark]

I still don't get how people can say that Jesus was a liberal - I'm not an expert on the bible, but I'm not familiar with any teachings of Jesus that encouraged "the state" or some other government entity to take care of those less fortunate - I thought he said that an INDIVIDUAL should help other INDIVIDUALS - not to give your assests to the government and HOPE the government is going to help. So, am I missing something? Do I have the wrong bible?

[Tom]

They hope in influence the election by getting a “Social Conservative” into office; in doing so they will continue the funding of their churches, hence their growth of power, through the granting of government funds given through the “faith based” initiatives under George Bush. It’s about money and power, and the subjugation of others. How does anyone think these mega churches got so large in the first place? Real estate was sky high yet the size or Rick Warrens Empire just keeps on growing.

[joe]

If this is a issue of paying taxes then there are a bunch of welfare drawing, non tax paying americans that should shut up!

[otis]

uh, not if they are a 501 c3 Organization. They gave away soverienty for tax free status...ooooops!

[Rick]

Lionel - You are correct. The constitution does indeed state that. It DOES NOT, however state, that the government or citizens of the United States must provide a tax break to religious organizations.

I agree with Dan - Pastors can either lose their tax exempt status or shut up.

These pastors have violated their agreement with the government (i.e.; tax code). They SHOULD lose their tax exempt status.

captiankona/Thomas - Nail, head ... need I say more?

[Arwen Evn]

BJ McQuery, No one is attempting to take away these pastor's freedom of speech. They are entitled to endorse anyone they want...from the street corner and in street clothes. But so long as they want tax exemption, they had best not do it while wearing a collar and preaching their Sunday sermon.

Spoiled, selfish brats want to have everything both ways. Mature adults understand that everything's a compromise.

[USAFVeteran]

The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says (in part) "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, ..."

Well, guess what? Politics isn't religion and religion isn't politics, except when practiced by these scam artists. Taxing pulpit shills who choose to make a living through political speech is entirely constitutional and should remain taxable in all instances. Claiming that pulpit sales pitches for political candidates is part of a "religion" is anti-Christian, although I realize certain other religions would have no problem with adopting "politicking" as part of their liturgy.

[wichita]

I keep hearing that Jesus was a liberal.

...Huh?

Jesus said, "to him that hath, more will be given." (a "use it, or lose it" notion).

Liberals say, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" (a Stalinist totalitarian thug creed).

Right now, Democrats are taking taxpayer money (by force), intending to throw it away, "investing" it with losers (if not crooks) on Wall Street and in Detroit. It somehow seems to me that Jesus teaching suggests that we might be better off investing public money with star economic performers, who might drag the rest of the economy to undreamed-of heights with them. Detroit and Fannie will only drag us in the hell-bound direction.

Of course, I'd be wasting my time, trying to get a liberal to get a grasp on this. For my part, I've given up belief in Harvard-educated, so-called "geniuses".

[BJ McQueary]

Daniel, Jesus is not a liberal nor would be a Democrate, what does he teach about killing, abortion is killing there is lots more you need to read in the book which you must not of read.

[AB]

This topic should be moot. No one really denies our ability to free speech. The pastor(s), hacks, or whatever you want to call them have not been jailed for their actions, or fined. It shouldn't even be an issue if they should loose their tax-exempt status. The bottom line is our tax code is what is fudged. If our tax laws better reflected taxing on purchasing in a free market, and not on income, or land ownership, or profits this argument would be moot, as it should be. Fair tax all the way!

[steve jones]

What a crock, there are thousands of political groups that are tax free, trying to take away tax free status from churches is just the kind of dirty crap that the liberals do. The are all for the black churches telling their drones to vote for the Democrats, but if a white church preaches that gays, abortions, and all who support them are evil, they want to silence them.

[USAFVeteran]

The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution says (in part) "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, ..."

Politics isn't religion and religion isn't politics except when practiced by these scam artists. Taxing pulpit shills who choose to make a living through political speech is entirely constitutional and should remain taxable in all instances. Claiming that pulpit sales pitches for political candidates is part of a "religion" is anti-Christian, although I realize certain other religions would have no problem with adopting "politicking" as part of their liturgy.

[Jerr]

If you are using the Bible as a guide, then John McCain is OUT!!
Though shalt not commit adultery. McCain was having an affair with
his current wife while he was still married to his first wife.

[Dude]

Jesus is a Democrat. I mean...doesn't Senator Obama have a (D) after his name?

[Rhea]

Pastors pay taxes like everyone else.
"For federal income tax purposes, your pastor is treated the same
as an employee of a business. Taxes are withheld from his
paycheck by the church, and wages are summarized for him on a
W-2 form at year-end. For social security taxes, however, your
pastor is treated much differently than an employee of a
business. For an employee, the total social security tax due on
wages is 15.3%. According to law, an employee pays only onehalf
of the tax (7.65%), and the business pays the other half.
However, self-employed individuals must pay the entire 15.3%
out of their own pockets. For social security tax purposes,
pastors are considered self-employed by the IRS. This means
that your pastor must pay the entire 15.3% social security tax on
his own."

[Robert Provencal]

The separation of church and state was created to help the church within the tax structure to survive financially by giving them an edge to expand without paying additional tax fees. For an individual representing the church to think that they can treat this privilege as a stepping stone without having their tax status revoked, is simply ridiculous. The selfishness of these people shows the fractured condition of religion in this country. If they have any concerns for their constituents and the impact they are creating towards tax exemption in general, one would think that these self imposed preachers of the religious community could use their wisdom to advise their constituents to vote their minds, not their preacher's.

[Jeff]

Let's see how political they wanna be when their rent goes up... Let's see how their paycheck does when they go from Messenger of the Lord to just another Moral Lobbyist of Washington...

[L Morris]

What I don't understand is why Southern Baptists are voting for McCain/Palin when their doctrine doesn't allow when to be leaders over men in their congregation. She is only a heartbeat away from the presidency and could very well be the "leader" over the entire USA. So why are they voting for McCain/Palin??????????

[Kevin]

Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s”

can be interpreted that these pastors should pay their fair set of taxes if they choose not follow the guidelines in order to receive tax exempt status.

It's all about the $$$ to them.

[Jchris]

I don't see any right to establish the IRS in the Constitution. Can someone point me to that clause? I believe the right to collect income taxes was an amendment to the Constitution much like the right to vote.

The problem in America today is the fact that there are more voters that may be classified as consumers rather than contributors. If you consume you will vote to consume more. If you contribute you will vote for proper stewardship of what you are contributing to. Since America has more consumers than contributors it has naturally bred unscrupulous (sp) politicians that feed off consumers by promising more and more and more free meals.

[Reality is Here]

A church MUST obey the Law of the Land. They are responsible for exhibiting a most perfect example.
These so-called Ministers need fired by their Congregation.
They cannot have their cake etc. We must OF COURSE, assume they will gladly pay the IRS otherwise they are Hypocrites.
If they operate like a business, they pay like a business. So they are wanting to play politics then..... PAY TO PLAY!

[Norma]

The very reason this country became great is we are not the same as other Countries who have fought wars within their borders based on religion!

Our Country is based on the moral right of protecting someones right to pray no matter what their belief. The United States "Freedom of Religion" doesn't mean freedom from certain kinds of religion in this country!

I can see were this is going and it isn't from God ,but from mans fear and prejudice! I hope these pastors lose the exempt status! I hope real American justice is done!

[Rodney Lamprey, jr.]

It sounds like only Rev Drake violated the IRS tax rules, and the other Reverends and Ministers chickened out by not actually endorsing candidates. It was all bluster to get some media attention for their churches and maybe boost their revenue. It is clear that the Ministers were making a veiled endorsement of Barack Obama for President, because everyone knows that McCain has sinned many times with adultery, coveting of money, ignoring the poor, and killing his fellow man, but the ministers seemed to remain within the rules by not stating the candidates names. On the other hand, Rev. Drake should now loose his IRS tax exempt status and have all his church donations comply with campaign contribution regulations.

[Sylvia]

Remove their tax exempt status??? Yeah, let's just remove all church tax exempts and charity organization tax exempts and any other group who is trying to make this world a better place. I think we should give all the money to the government because they care for us & can put our money to better use. NO WAY! Wake up people.

[JRDevo]

As in Jesus' time, religion MUST touch on all areas of life - INCLUDING & ESPECIALLY - politics.

The IRS' stance on tax-exemption / political speech is clearly an effort to quash FREE speech and the FREE exercise of religion.

Charging for free speech is unconstitutional. It is a heavy-handed effort to control the political impact of the church. Do other nonprofit organizations pay taxes to engage in political speech?? NO.

[Rightinmissouri]

Where in the constitution does it state “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; as long as it tax exempt”?

It doesn’t.

The tax exempt status has been a clear intrusion by the state since day one.

[greg]

Everyone's missing the real issue here. The IRS doesn't want people to give to churches and claiming that the gift was charitable and therefore a deduction.

That's exactly what happened when some 501c3's were formed just for the donor's ability to write their gift off.

That's it...nothing else...no big whoop!

These pastors aren't "honoring the king" by their self-righteous Constitution thumping, AND the IRS needs to re-look at the law and make some concessions for long-standing congregations who have proven their worth in their communities.

Oh...lest I forget...the ADF needs to go into a hole somewhere and repent! This is childish to say the least.

Jesus said, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, give to God what is God's" - makes sense to me.

[John]

As a former resident of Orange Country, CA, I say: GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!!!

What about all the black churches who have endorsed political candidates for years and no one is yelling about them? Are we being racist here????? A pastor should preach what his or her religion believes without penalty. I do believe the Catholic Church is too silent on this.

[mark]

It's REALLY REALLY simple. Religion is given a free ride in this country because they bring so much good to our lives and people need it..They build our society and in most cases, make it better. The rules? Government stays out of religion if religion stays out of politics. It's proffesional courtesy. These yahoos are mucking around in the wrong game. They're taking whatever they want from Christianity and mixing it with what they want from politics. Something Jesus said never to do. Someone told them that they have the right to speak on something they shouldn't even be touching and they believe it. NOPE!!

Penalty flag!!

10 yards and you lose your tax exempt status.

And just a s a side note, these evangelicals that think the Republicans represent them are dead wrong. Killing, over-spending, messing in others lives, intolerance. This are not what Jesus wanted us to do. Love and respect. Care and charity. Not Fear. He never said fear your neighbor. He never said attack your neighbor. He never said to kill your neighbor.

[Mystic55]

Name one.

There are political groups.

there are tax free groups.

But there are not tax free groups that advocate specific political ideologies (501) because if there are, they should have their tax free status removed.

No group gets to have no taxes and be political.

No group SHOULD be anonymous and political (527's)

[Barry]

Lord Cornwallis said, "We can never win the war for the Colonies because of that damnable Blacked Robed Regiment." It is well recorded history that the Revolutionary War was fought from the pulpit. I am a Pastor and I pay taxes on my salary. I also find it peculiar that the Democrats can speak from a supposed church and no one seems to care. How can any American vote for a person who blatantly supports the ideals of Karl Marxx? Not to mention partial birth abortion, homosexuality..........

[Mystic55]

What is hard to understand about 'render unto Caesar that which is Ceasar and unto God that which is God's'?

Jesus himself said that the Kingdom of God is not the Kingdom of Man.

If a church is going to engage in politics, it enters the realm of Ceasar and is therefore taxable.

Quite frankly, if you really complain about it, we should just tax ALL churches period. That would greatly reduce their influence and we'd all be better off.

[Shripathi Kamath]

Rightinmissouri,

Where in the constitution does it state “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; as long as people do not get outside your house at 3 o'clock at night and exercise it from the public streets in a loud manner”?

It doesn’t.

Does that mean that is OK to do so?

[JTW]

This is ridiculous. I HATE when the government thinks it is the greatest thing and all others must bow to it to receive its largesse.

"We, the government, will give tax breaks but only if you, a non profit group, also promise to not campaign."

I think god is a ridiculous invention, the belief in which does great harm to society but the seperation of church and state never intended to remove the first amendment rights of those that do want to use that power to control others.

[Tom]

Freedom of religion, assembly and speech dictate that these men acted well within their rights.

Corporate and personal income tax is unethical and immoral - it is a form of partial slavery.

In my opinion, no religious organization should be taxed for anything.

[Chrissy]

Every individual has a right to support or endorse any candidate they choose. And we are all free to discuss our beliefs openly. But holding the tax-exempt status means that the church’s purpose is to serve the public good, not a private interest. Public school teachers are not allowed to endorse candidates at work either...

I doubt that any church whose pastor is endorsing a specific candidate or party from the pulpit would be willing to allow parishioners to “discuss” or disagree during the sermon. I imagine it’s more of a case of “This is whom you should vote for—God wants you to vote for him. If you vote for the other guy, you might burn in Hell for all of eternity.” That’s not exactly an open discussion. That is abuse of power; preying upon the fears of those searching for spiritual guidance.

Besides, who knows how informed (or misinformed) your pastor is on the political issues. If people need help deciding whom to vote for, they can educate themselves on their own time, and they are certainly free to apply their personal morals when making that decision.

[Anthony]

Tax them, thousands of delapated towns across the midwest could use the tac money, as their downtown cores are not filled with business's but rather churches, that don't pay taxes or provide jobs. Tax these weasles until they are now more.

[NMI]

Make the world a better place? How is that working between Shia & Suni, or any other religious wars/conflicts. The world has killed more of it's inhabitants with the excuse of religion than any other single theme. Anyone remember the holocaust? The churches were to be left alone as long as they did not interfere in state matters, and originally the state was to be kept out of the churches as well. My family came here in the 1600's to get away from these extremists. If they wish to get involved in politics remove their tax-exempt status, and indict the churches for obstruction of justice in protecting child molesters, and hiding illegal aliens.

[A Capone]

I want to see these guys refuse to pay their taxes after they do lose their tax exempt status. See if they like prison missions from the inside,

I think we need to get some OLD speeches from these guys to determine HOW MUCH THEY OWE IN BACK TAXES.

YES WE CAN --- balance the budget!!!

[Mike K.]

If 527s, who make tons of political speech through their commercials are tax-exempt, then why can't churches be so?

[Lisa]

It is difficult for people who believe that the Bible is true to have to keep their mouths shut due to political correctness. People who live their faith have every right to do so- and to utter it as well. I have some issues with the guy who told his congregation to vote for him, but for those who asked their congregants to use the Bible as their litmus test for candidates? What's the problem there? They were, to coin a phrase, preaching to the choir.

[Vic]

Previous poster: "darwinism.....the basis for society failure"

Please,....everything you do, every day, like driving cars, using the microwave, watching TV are all tied to science. If you don't like what science brings to our lives, please go find an uninhabited island somewhere and stay there.

[Danny]

I am an evangelical Christian prolife Democrat. It is not right to advocate war that the Republicans preach. We have lost over 4,000 lives for a war that illegal to begin with. We should only go to war when our country is threatened in this case there was no link to Iraq. We attacked a sovereign nation for no reason. I don't see Republicans advocating adoption as an alternative to abortion. Where was Sarah Palin when her daughter was practicing sex before marriage. Is that not a sin. McCain comitted adultry while he was married is that not a sin. Look at the child sex abuse comitted by the Catholic church is that not a sin. What about forcing Jews to become Catholic during the Spanish inquisition killing and torturing is that not a sin. Turning their backs on the jews during the Holocost is that not a sin. People we are on the brink of economic collaspe why vote Republican McSame for 4 more years. Hold your nose and vote for Barack Obama he is a much better choice.
God Bless America!!!!!

[Steve Johnston]

Did I hear somebody say Jesus was a liberal? Now THAT is hilarious. The phrase, "He was His own man" applies here more than with any other man in history. Jesus was Jesus. He would expose the hypocrisy of us all, liberal and conservative alike.

[D Hatchett]

I don't recall all of you crying for the IRS to revoke the tax exempt status of Trinity Chuch in Chicago when Wright and Pflager where on the Pulpit preaching their politics.

What is up with that?

[Steve Real]

If they want to be a politician
then they will have to pay the man (IRS)
just like the rest of US.
Either your presching for Chridt or you are not.
I hope the IRS puts the screws to these preachers.
I hate politiks in my church.

[notaliberal]

"Jesus was a liberal"

Really?

Are you saying he was for abortion, even in the 9th month?
He was for gay marriage?
He was for stealing peoples money (taxes) and giving it to others?
He was for class warfare? (pitting the rich against the poor)
He was for blaming others for your own problems?
He was for con doms and pre-marital relations?
He was for giving privilage to other based on skin color/orientation?
He was for giving animals more rights than people?

I think you need to open the good book and actually try reading it.

[Paul]

I'm sorry but this seems to me to be essentially a form of greenmail to coerce forfeiting of basic rights.

The tax code specifies tax exempt status for nonprofit organziations such as charities. Most churches are in fact charitable and not in some sort of business to make profit or pay big salaries. My church certainly puts a huge emphasis in charitable work - I've helped build houses for the less fortunate, we dispatch relief missions, sheltered Katrina evacuees, and so on. If the IRS wants to put an in/out test on a charitable org that's one thing but that's not the cut being applied here.

I beg anyone reading this to remember the role Churches has played in our history. Should Martin Luther King have been silenced in the 60's?

Finally for those who are concerned that organized religion is a bulwark monolitth of Right-Wing conspiracy - its just not true. Even within Christianity there is a substantial diversity. The Catholics and Methodist stand in opposition to the Southern Baptists on immigration for instance. Several Churches promote environmentalism and so on.

The bottom line here that that the IRS is arbitrarily gagging people. In a country where free speech is one of our Core rights - that's just wrong.

[Clint]

Religious institutions should be taxed like the businesses they are.

[Lorraine]

I would like to know if these pastors also informed their parishners of McCain's veiws about Evolution. How can you vote against one candidate because of his views that a woman has the right to choose and vote for the other candidate who does not believe that God created the world? Check out the article in a CBS article this month in which McCain clearly states that he believes in Evolution.

[LastAmerican]

Please explain to me; who gave the IRS permission to regulate free speech?

Where are the liberals SCREAMING "separation of church and state"?

Fortunately liberals are aborting themselves out of existence.

Excellent...

[daknoodle]

Lets first get a lesson in what these tax exemptions and a 501(c3) organization IS and what that designation does for those who are contributors to the organization.

Whether you believe in the religion or not, most of these religions have some sort of a tithe or contribution recommendation for its people. These contributions help keep the lights on and the buildings paid for, along with all the toys (electronics and such) inside paid for. By being a 501 (c3) organization, those who contribute to these organizations can use these as tax write offs as charity contributions. So the benefit is not necessarily for the pastors, its for the congregation. These pastors DO pay taxes. Though there is a clause that allows them to elect not to participate in Social Security, it is not something that is usually selected. The value of forming the organization as "tax exempt" is so that the contributions of it's people can be used as write offs.

Now for the history lesson that we all tend to forget. Please, please, please, go read the letters and sermons from the pulpits of our nation during the revolution. If it were not for the pastors and ministers of the time speaking to their congregations the way they were speaking, I doubt this nation would exist. Go ready the letters and sermons from the pulpits during the Civil War and I would be willing to bet that this nations would again, not be what it is today. It is the guidance of righteous men that need and should lead this nation.

I'll agree with those who are skeptical of the many con-artists who put on the cloth and claim to be men of god. But are we really going to go around and simply assume that all are this way? Be free individuals and vet these people out for yourselves! Find out who they are and determine if they are worthy to be listened to, don't just assume they are all con-artists.

If we arn't listening to righteous men about vetting our political choices then who are we listening to? The media??!! Other politicians??!! C'mon, we can do better than that. I'd MUCH rather hear what the man of God in the pulpit is explaining (and take it home and determining the truth for myself) then to listen to what the media and the politicians are telling me!

I'd also like the ability to contribute to an organization that is trying to do good in my community, helping the poor, the sick, the widows. An organization that is trying to do some good for a change. I'd also like for that contribution to be a little softer on me at tax time as well.

So why can't I have both?? The ability to listen to a righteous man's guided thoughts on the current political outlook AND be able to contribute to a charity that is helping my community.

[Jorge]

I guess Rev. Right's church needs to be taxed.

[Peter McKelvey]

This is absurd. The United States is based on a separation of church and state.
For those of you who are arguing that Religious leaders should be able to say whatever they want.. realize this.. THEY CAN! but if they do.. they have to pay taxes like every other organization.
At first that may seem like they are being punished for speaking about politics. If this were the case it would clearly be unconstitutional. ITS NOT! It is a privilege for these men to not be taxed. If you want to argue that its unconstitutional to punish them for talking about politics. Why aren't you arguing that its unconstitutional for these men to receive tax exemption in the first place?!

[Michele]

What ever happened to 'render unto Cesear?' Didn't Jesus go on a rampage through a market because the preachers weren't keeping their temples pure from the outside politics and material world? I could be wrong, of course....

[GHM]

lose tax free status!!
Good --- they want freedom of interfering with the goverment process -- make them pay taxes on everything like the rest of us.

[Captain Obvious]

It's amazing how many of you have this BASS ACKWARDS. Churches are aren't SUPPOSED to subjected to taxes in the first place, not "subjected but conditionally exempt." The distinction is made not because they are apolitical, but to ensure that a church is not defined as a business, much as individual families are not subjected to business taxes.

Historically non-profit organizations were not and should not be subjected to taxes at all, and this crap about remaining politicaly neutral is a recent perversion of that system.

Churches, much like families, and charities, or any other non-profit entity, should be able to exercise their FULL freedom of speech without being extorted by the IRS.

Let me be clear, this is not the IRS taking away a "freebie" that "greedy" churches have gotten "'used" to. This is the IRS threatening financial extortion with taxes that churches have NEVER been subjected to in the first place if those churches don't play by their new unconstitutional speech-squelching rules.

[Nancy Hill]

Seems to me, the pastors chickened out. I thought the point of the joint sermonizing was to all endorse McCain and bring on a challenge. Instead, they engaged in the same hint-hint-wink-wink which has been going on for years -- "I'm not telling you who to vote for, but the Bible says..."

[daknoodle]

Lets first get a lesson in what these tax exemptions and a 501(c3) organization IS and what that designation does for those who are contributors to the organization.

Whether you believe in the religion or not, most of these religions have some sort of a tithe or contribution recommendation for its people. These contributions help keep the lights on and the buildings paid for, along with all the toys (electronics and such) inside paid for. By being a 501 (c3) organization, those who contribute to these organizations can use these as tax write offs as charity contributions. So the benefit is not necessarily for the pastors, its for the congregation. These pastors DO pay taxes. Though there is a clause that allows them to elect not to participate in Social Security, it is not something that is usually selected. The value of forming the organization as "tax exempt" is so that the contributions of it's people can be used as write offs.

Now for the history lesson that we all tend to forget. Please, please, please, go read the letters and sermons from the pulpits of our nation during the revolution. If it were not for the pastors and ministers of the time speaking to their congregations the way they were speaking, I doubt this nation would exist. Go ready the letters and sermons from the pulpits during the Civil War and I would be willing to bet that this nations would again, not be what it is today. It is the guidance of righteous men that need and should lead this nation.

I'll agree with those who are skeptical of the many con-artists who put on the cloth and claim to be men of god. But are we really going to go around and simply assume that all are this way? Be free individuals and vet these people out for yourselves! Find out who they are and determine if they are worthy to be listened to, don't just assume they are all con-artists.

If we arn't listening to righteous men about vetting our political choices then who are we listening to? The media??!! Other politicians??!! C'mon, we can do better than that. I'd MUCH rather hear what the man of God in the pulpit is explaining (and take it home and determining the truth for myself) then to listen to what the media and the politicians are telling me!

I'd also like the ability to contribute to an organization that is trying to do good in my community, helping the poor, the sick, the widows. An organization that is trying to do some good for a change. I'd also like for that contribution to be a little softer on me at tax time as well.

So why can't I have both?? The ability to listen to a righteous man's guided thoughts on the current political outlook AND be able to contribute to a charity that is helping my community.

[GHM]

Posted by: LastAmerican | September 29, 2008 at 12:01 PM
Please explain to me; who gave the IRS permission to regulate free speech?

Where are the liberals SCREAMING "separation of church and state"?

Fortunately liberals are aborting themselves out of existence.

Excellent...

___________________________________________
God must have because its there and its law of the land!

[Tamara]

Sorry, But Jesus woudl not be a Democrat OR a Republican...but nice try skewing the facts!! Public Schools and their teachers are allowed to use thier "pulpit" to tell people how to vote...and it has worked. I think the liberals are afraid that Pastors just might have more clout!! I think it is time for Publicly funded schools to loose thier funding for endorsing cansdidates and for pushing thier religions.

[mike]

I say the following as an Agnostic:

There is no law preventing anyone from preaching politics from a church pulpit. One [whom preaches from the pulpit] may cause the loss of the tax shelter. Remove the tax shelter from EVERY church-one may watch the IRS coffers fill.

Insert here the discussion: The Supreme court found the income tax unconstitutional...then they wrote the 16th ammendment!!!

The last time I went to church and the pastor started preaching politics, he was defending President Clinton from near certain impeachment, I didn't go back till there was a new pastor. (read- I VOTED WITH MY FEET!) How would you feel if the pastor was a Republican and that's what he preached? Would you leave? Would you lose half of your congregation?

Leave the churches to themselves, tax them like everyone else, and the congregations will decide for and with whom they worship. Sounds okay to me, just like smoking! You don't like cigarettes, don't patronize the establishment.

To Daniel, you s'pose Jesus would support the abortion clinics? (see John 2:15) Reminds me of those stupid road signs, "God is pro life" (except when he's angry and brings forth a flood!)

NOTE:You lose the 1st ammendment and you get a STATE RELIGION.

[Rose Koller]

Let's reverse the rolls: How would the reverands like if if the politicians started telling their constituents which church to attend or which ones not to attend? It has nothing to do with freedom of speech when ministers use their position to influence voters. Personally they are free to say how they'll vote and why, but not from the pulpit, and they should not be allowed to use their authority to influence others in this area. Unless they want to pay for it by losing their tax-exempt status.

[Buzz]

It is interesting to note from reading these comments just how prevalent the idea is that religion should be abolished and the right of freedom of religion with it.

The stark reaction to political speech from the tax-free pulpit cloaked in religion comes from those who witness the same political speech from the non-religious non-profit pulpit every day -- a pulpit enshrined with protection in the very same amendment of our Constitution. The only recognizable difference is the term "religion."

Apparently some believe that some clauses of the BIll of Rights are more right than others. Further proof danger to freedom and liberty demonstrates itself within our borders every day, if not in fact right here on this very page.

Many citizens fail to grasp the entirety of the "Separation of Church and State." (apart from also not knowing that the Constitution doesn't actually say that). In essence, the church does not exercise or recognize any control over the government; and the government does not exercise or recognize any control over the church. The government has no more right to tax the church than it does to tax another sovereign nation. This is a distinction that does not apply to other non-profits.

I am not a personal fan of poltics from the pulpit; in fact, I loath it. But I do not loath it as much as I loath those who would attempt to oppress the right to speak; you are vile enemies of liberty, worthy of contempt.

[Driscoll]

I am confused, if you pay taxes then you are entitled to free speech and the opposite, if you don't pay taxes you are not entitled to fee speech. I do not recall the Constitution putting any sort of restriction of this sort on speech. That being the case; then the laws regarding the IRS restriction are unconstitutional on their face.

[David beatty]

the law is good and just though perhaps unconstitunal. it is intended to keep religions from becoming a way to skirt the donation limits set on campains. perhaps the religions should remember judge not (for how could they make a choice of who to endorse without judging). even if the law is unconstitunal it may be better not to open the can of worms that removeing it from our books would do . i hope those considering challenging it reconsider

[Giosuè]

This is hilarious to me....the majority of US citisens believe they have freedom of speech...freedom of speech hardly exists is the US to the degree that it is suggested and believed. Not only that but the fact that a pastor, regardless of whether speaking of politics during a service is right or even intelligent, has every right to do that unless the church itself decides against it...it shouldn't be taken to federal level. Just as the preacher is a human and respectively should have the right of freedom of speech (where in the US he evidently doesn't), the people attending the church have the choice, and or right to leave that sermon, church, religion, etc on their own. I am sick of hearing about these petty issues in the US, people and government alike take no personal responsability and make hardly any intelligent decisions for themselves and instead argue whether it is right or wrong for somebody to say this or that.
The biggest problem in this country is lack of education which leads to lack in confidence of forming opinions for yourself and allowing others to make them as well. What I think most people need to learn from this is the lie that is the US in all its ideals that do not exist how people would like them to. call a spade for a spade.

I personally do not think or respect the idea of a pastor expressing his political views during a sermon...especially out of context...but I do not believe the government or the IRS for that matter has the right to tell him not to....especially if they preach the idea of freedom of speech.

[Jacob]

Jesus actually was a liberal, so are the jewish people of which Jesus was a part of. Also, if Christians were to vote according to the Bible, they would vote the Dem ticket this time as they are not allowed as men, to give more power than they themselves have to a woman. Not that I agree, but lets practice what we preach. Also, the constitution actually says that we are required to pay only as many taxes as we see fit for our government to run. I guess we are all breaking the constitution. This is not a left or right thing, Jesus and the bible just would not tolerate equality for the genders, come on people, listen to what we preach.

[Angilynn]

Procedurally and substantively, these pastors are wrong!
Procedurally, I must echo previous comments with Romans 13:1, 2, 5-7, which requires Christians to pay taxes to civil authorities and to respect them because God installed them. There is no exception for churches in the scriptures; however, the IRS is generously exempting those businesses that agree to keep their operations restricted to religious, educational, etc., purposes only. The Bible ranks higher than the Constitution for Christians and permits the US to tax them. If they now decide to discuss a broader range of subjects, then relinquish or do not seek the 501c3 status. Pastors, please study the Bible. I will discuss substantive issues on a future post.

Read for yourself, Romans 13:1-2, 5-7 which states:

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

[S G Thomas]

'Tax Exempt' is a tool to hide behind for far too many anyway. But, like our greedy politicians, our religious leaders believe it is their god-given right to surround themselves in comfort. Too often those who can barely feed themselves are required to see to it that the head of their religious attachment feed on the finest.

Time to get rid of 'Tax Exempt'...and let the chips fall where they may...

[Mike]

If you want to takeaway a tax break to the churches for exercising their rights, I find it quite odd that no one is calling for the labor unions to lose theirs? Do they not endorse candidates, too? I wonder what the increase on the federal tax rolls would be if the huge, powerful unions had to pay their fair share too?

[SUZI]

MY PASTOR DRAWS A VERY MEAGER SALARY . IF MORE PEOPLE READ THEIR BIBLE AND TITHED, THEN PASTORS COULD GIVE UP THE TAX EXEMPT. I KNOW NOT ALL PASTORS WORK FOR SMALL SALARIES, BUT THE RICH JUST KEEP ON GETTING RICHER, AND THE POOR.....WELL YOU KNOW.

[AC]

When they signed the dotted line and obtained the tax exemption, they signed away their right to preach politics.

These clerics are dishonorable. They are not keeping their end of an agreement they signed.

If you preach politics and you agreed to tax exempt status, then you are in breach of your agreement. Yet, you expect the gov't to continue honoring its side of the agreement?

Gentlemen! You SOLD your 1st amendment right for the price of a tax exemption! Honor your agreements or pay taxes like everyone else.

[J from San Luis Obispo]

I don't see how these pastors can complain. They are personally still allowed to endorse whoever they like. They are simply not allowed to do it from their pulpits. Heck, they can even add to their bulletin or say that if anyone wants to discuss what Christ would advise in the modern political environment, to feel free to ask after the service.

Those pastors who decided to use their pulpits to exclude their parishioners from their version of God as a result of personal politics, should be taxed. Alternatively, the IRS could be charitable, and give the congregations an opportunity to fire those pastors who injected political speech into the religious arena before taxing the churches.

Seriously, a new testament style god is real, I personally think that those preachers are going to burn in hell for their hubris. Assuming that God would prefer one politician over another based on abortion rights issues, or based on church and state issues, it's nonsense. "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, Give unto God what is God's". I'd say that in that passage, Jesus argues for the separation of Church and State, but that's just me.

Merry Election Season everyone. Let's see what other psychoses we American's can manage to cook up between now and early November.

[MrE]

Render under Ceasar the things that are Ceasar's...

If you don't play by the rules that grant tax exempt status, then you should be taxed and cheerfully obey God and pay the taxes.

[J. Lee]

Why it is not a violation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment for the IRS to establish which churches do and do not have tax-exempt status? And wouldn't a blanket revocation of all churches' tax-exempt status also be a violation as it would place all churches under the thumb of federal regulatory pressure in violation of the doctrine of separation of church and state?

Furthermore, IRS instructions for form SE and 4029 explain that members of certain religious organizations are exempt from paying self-employment tax IF the organization has been in continuous existence at all times since December 31, 1950. Why isn't the IRS's arbitrary regulation ALSO a violation? The very mention of creationism or intelligent design in a public school is decried as a violation of the First Amendment establishment clause; it would seem to me that the IRS's mention of certain religious orders in continuous existence since 12/31/1950 would necessarily also be a violation. What happened on that date, by the way, and why did the IRS choose it? I'll bet $20 that it was chosen to include some religions and exclude others; that is PRECISELY what the First Amendment is there to protect against.

Certainly I agree that the public schools need to stay out of the religion business. But so should the IRS. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Bo]

I love it when people expose their total ignorance of all things Socialist. I guess they are so used to using the word as an insult that an actual understanding of socialism isn’t necessary or even desired.

"From each according to ability, to each according to need" predates Stalin by at least a hundred years. It originated with a Frenchman named Claude Henri de Rouvroy, comte do Saint Simon. Karl Marx popularized the comment in a pamphlet in 1875. Many people claim he originated it but he didn't. Marx was heavily influenced by Rouvroy, though.

Claude Henri de Rouvroy was also a very pious and devout Christian who always attributed Christianity and Christian ideals as the foundations of his theories about socialism, including "From each according to ability, to each according to need." I would argue that the tale of Jesus feeding the five thousand with a few baskets of fish and bread is a perfect example that socialism is a Christian ideology.

The Gospel of John tells us that one small boy gave all that he had, five loaves of bread and one small fish.

"From each according to ability."

And then he took it and divided it up amongst 5000 men and however many women and children accompanied them.

"To each according to need."

Jesus devoted His life to easing the suffering of the poor, the sick, the downtrodden, and the dispirited. When Jesus raised a man from the dead, it wasn’t a rich banker or an industrialist or someone powerful or even well known. Lazarus was a beggar.

Jesus never taught about trickle down theory. He told people to avoid amassing wealth. He told rich people to sell their possessions to help the poor. Frankly, I don’t see a lot of this behavior from either Democrats or Republicans, either personally or collectively. Jesus says we will know people by their actions, not their words. Rich politicians and preachers lecturing about Christianity in politics while they are ignoring Jesus' teaching in their own life always makes me laugh.

Jesus was apolitical. People have been trying to take Him down off the cross and nail Him onto the flag of their own personal cause for 2000 years. Jesus is not a Democrat, a Republican, a Socialist, or a Libertarian. He is completely apolitical and would never in a million years align Himself with anything as thoroughly corrupt, selfish, self-centered, narcissistic, immoral, brutal, mean-spirited, unethical, dishonest, or cruel as either the Republican or Democratic parties.

Never in a million years.

[read your bible like you mean it]

im 26 and this subject has confused me for quite some time...Isn't Jesus the KING of Kings? Then why would he care the least bit what happens in American Politics? one small slice of the worlds decision doesnt matter, if it did then he'd have to be 5 times as concerned with Chinese government since thats a 5th of the worlds population and none of them are christian.

This country was founded on a separation of church and state, at the same time it was founded on the slavery of africans, genocide of native americans & exploitation of immigrants so there is a delicate balance between idealism & brutality here...WWJD with a place like this is the question? He would walkout of his church (never to return)
he would feed the hungry, cloth the naked, heal the sick, flip over the tables of money changers and walk with prostitutes and tax collectors (or any other form of modern hustler...say failed banker or stock speculator). Jesus would not be in a spat with the governemnt about his non-profit Tax status being threatned by the IRS over a freedom speech he has willfully signed away.

Too many people yack, stack resources, and live in a worldly manner inside their cathedrals but where are the ecstatic prophets who walk the earth and usher in the dawn of the god who comes like a thief in the night?

I used to gto church often as a youth but the hypocrisy i saw everywhere made it hard after a while. Shouldnt true religion take you over so fully that you render unto caeser what is his and then focus totally on the spirit & being a good neighbor?

Peace

[Bill]

This is totally ridiculous. Jesus and God are liberals. Liberals like to spend money. And everyone knows that this is a Christian Nation. Therefore Jesus and God would support the economic bailout plan! Why do you conservatives hate America?!

[franz dibbler]

Pastors who feel the need to engage in politics from the pulpit should have both their stipend and housing allowance taxed retroactively. The churches themselves should be paying property taxes all along. No more free rides to organizations that promote magical thinking.

[Nathan]

Abortion is a political issue. It has also been a religious issue for hundreds of years at least. Marriage is now a political issue. But it has always been a religious issue. There are many other political issues that have religious implications.

If we agree that politics shouldn't be discussed over the pulpit, no church should have a tax exempt status. They've been preaching politics since before politics came into existence.

[Robert Castle]

Old time religion, like the old grey mare, ain't what it used to be. The Republicons privatize and politicize everything they touch. Money and power, without regard to how obtained, is their God.

Republicons are a cross between Republicans and neocons, con men from the beginning.