Another look at downtown L.A.

Backstory: About five weeks ago the L.A. Times ran a controversial piece about downtown real estate, pointing out "signs that downtown's residential boom is slowing, if not stalling out altogether." I say controversial because the story unleashed a flood of comments on this blog, many of them from defenders of life downtown who were angry about the article  (That was the thread in which I was accused of having a  "Westside white-bread classist attitude").

Now the new part: Today's paper takes another look, a friendlier look, at life downtown, this time focusing on the industrial district and its "intoxicatingly youthful vibe."

"Here, away from the bustling sidewalks and skyscrapers of the city center, narrow, quiet tree-lined streets intersected by old rail lines have become magnets for urban residents looking for a different downtown experience. ... Birds chirp over the low rumbling of trucks. Residents say the area reminds them of New York's TriBeCa or Chelsea districts when they were just becoming residential hot spots."

I'm anxious to hear your comments on this one, but first just one piece of newspaper spin on publishing two seemingly contradictory stories about downtown: they're both valid views of what's happening. Yes, the residential boom appears to be slowing down. And yes, there is also a growing community of people who enjoy living downtown.

There, my spin. Your thoughts? Comments? Email story tips to peter.viles@latimes.com. FYI: Long weekend ahead. No new blog posts until late Monday.  Comments will post, eventually.

Comments

[Brady Westwater]

In many ways an excellent and well balanced article, but no LA TImes City section article is ever complete without a major factual error.

It states that the city council has pased strict limits on converting properties that were once industrial into residential and live/work spaces which is totally false.

The moronic policy was NOT pased by the city council; it was illegally and unilaterally implemented by the CRA and the Planning Department.

The city council to the contrary, has OPPOSED this policy and has voted to re-take control of this issue from these agencies - and has voted to approve projects that had been denied by these two agencies.

The city council has recognized that the so called industrial policy, in Downtown, is destroying jobs and not preserving them.

[HulaGirl]

Why are gangbangers mentioned at every turn?

Not that I'm thrilled with living among thugs, but gangbangers are EVERYWHERE in Los Angeles - Even Santa Monica and Venice in particular. Hell, I've seen tagging in Pacific Palisades.

And guess what - gangbangers have cars, so they can drive to your "safe" neighborhood anytime they feel like it.

Let's all stop complaining about gangbangers and DO something to help alleviate the problem. Get on a commission, pressure your politicians or move to Arkansas - Oh wait, gangbangers there, too.

And also the KKK - just as gang-y, but at least they wear clean sheets.

And please don't get give me the "racist" speech. I happen to believe low-lifes come in all colors and sizes.

[puckhead]

"To provide one example, you can walk down Main Street, looking south from First Street and you find a few gentrified blocks of little stories and scenester lofts and condos. You go down two more blocks and you basically have Skid Row. It is just the dramatic line of bohemian opulence and naked destitution that makes this area really unlivable."

LOL's I guess you've never lived in NY. SoCal people are wimps for the most part. We see a homeless person and think the world is ending. We live in a big city people, and with that comes some grittiness. If you don't like it, move down to one of the planned communities in OC. They're actually very nice (I'm not kidding), but don't knock the people that likes a little grittiness.

[Susan]

Downtown LA has already undergone an amazing transformation, and it's continuing. Perhaps the pace has slowed, but to me, with LA Live and all the skyscrapers under construction, it still seems relatively fast-changing.

I started working downtown again a few months ago, after rarely being there during the day for the past 20 years. (I had worked there for two years, 20 years ago.) My first day, walking to work from my (great) Commuter Express bus, I saw a woman in a small park her dogs. My initial thought was, "Did she bring her dogs to *work*?!" because I never imagined folks living there.

After doing a lot of walking around, and taking some tours of a couple of the loft developments, now *I* would move there-- if I didn't love the beach so much.

[mc]

I find it entertaining that most of the ardent supporters are men.

Being a single woman who lived downtown, walked downtown, went carless (rode a bike or took the bus) as much as possible for three years, the heinous things that I was verbally and physically threatened with would make your ears burn.

Maybe it would be different if I had lived with a guy. But I don't like to choose my neighborhoods based on if I need a male companion or not.

Oh, one thing I left out was that I moved out because I watched someone beaten to death outside my building. A dozen calls went to the police from residents and security guards, with the station only blocks away, but with a crowd of 30 plus people participating in the melee, they didn't show until there was a fatality.

I wish that was a lie, but sadly it isn't.

[Hector]

I would not live in downtown even if i were to get paid for living there. I think if far from being an attractive place to live.

[Tim K.]

puckhead wrote: "don't knock the people that likes a little grittiness."

Translation: Some people are PROUD of the their ability to IGNORE grittiness. They feel it is a mark of emotional superiority to be able to see things they don't like and block it out - it's one of the New Yorker atttitude of pride. We're so hardened we're cool.

That doesn't make the place any better - it's just a dysfunctional rationalization of your circumstances.

[Paul]

Here's how I spend my time in downtown L.A.: in the car, doors locked, windows up, and hoping to get back home to downtown San Diego ASAP.

[Diego]

It is very obvious that people who talk trash on Downtown have never even tried to hang out in Downtown.
Hungry? well there's Pete's Cafe on 4th and Main. I think that corridor of Downtown is what The Author was pointing out. Between 4th and 2nd there are coffee shops, more than one restaurant and bars.
Macy's Plaza even has a food court that sells the best roasted turkey sandwich in LA.
I guess the Standard and Edison are just not hip enough. And little Tokyo is a bore.
And for the person who said that downtown is Tijuana during the day...At least they drive the economy and make Downtown an urban center. Without them it would only be homelessness. What are people doing that homeless people harass you. I work, hang out and love LA, the homeless have never done anything to me , and i dont mind giving them change if they ask. Gang looking individuals are not criminals. But the ignorant will always assume they are. LA is the Armpit of the country, but its the White-west side phonies who make it that way. LA is Ours.

[apennysaved]

"...coddle illeagal alien gang bangers..." Okay,coddle only those who are legal.

As HulaGirl said, gang bangers exist everywhere.
And they come in all forms, legally in this country and not. Wake up and smell reality!

[Anonymous]

I say, downtown LA looks much attractive today than how it looked 5-years ago. Although, I would not live in dowtown LA, asresult of its high crime and the lack of entertainment. I live in Compton, in the night I could walk and not get rob if I am cautious and there is more cops on the streets. However, in downtown LA, from 7pm to 6am its a highly dangerous area, not all downtown LA but the majority it is. Is like in Compton the majority of Compton is dangerous;however, there are areas were its very peaceful and safe, the same in downtown LA.
Downtown LA is not as attractive as other downtowns to invest. Well now with LA Live, maybe but if I would live in downtown LA if I saw less crime and more nightlife, perphas a Mall.
Compton just opened a 85-million mall(Best Buy, Target, Marshall, Ross, Staples, Shoe Pavillion, 24-Hours Fitness and many many more) and this is attracting many investors into the city.

[Eric Qzaki]

During my last light rail trip through downtown, there were a couple of guys with tattoos proudly proclaiming their membership in the 18th street gang intimidating everyone and bragging about never working a day in their lives. The scumbag who murdered Jamiel Shaw was also a proud member of the 18th street gang. He was released from jail by the LAPD several days before the murder, despite the fact that he was subject to federal deportation.

Why shouldn't the LAPD use all the tools at their disposal--including immigration law--to alleviate gang-related violent crime?

[Dan]

"Oh, one thing I left out was that I moved out because I watched someone beaten to death outside my building. A dozen calls went to the police from residents and security guards, with the station only blocks away, but with a crowd of 30 plus people participating in the melee, they didn't show until there was a fatality.

I wish that was a lie, but sadly it isn't.
"

Was it in the newspaper? Did LAPD explain why it took so long?

[Stephen]

While in law school, I met many OC folks who hadn't ever been to LA, and being the liberal lefty that I am, raised in a right wingy suburb of Chicago, I have no desire to live in OC > been there, done that. I live near downtown, and I love it. BUT > the LAPD (Rampart in particular)is pathetic in its response to 911 calls, enforcing the law against unlicensed street vendors (presumably because the mayor and city council rep will destroy their careers), and pure arrogance because they know most of the residents won't make complaints. Dear LAPD > we're coming back > please let your lapdog police chief know this. If one more cop laughs when I point out all the ILLEGAL goings on at the MacArthur Park subway station > I look forward to giving his badge number to the new mayor > hopefully City Auditor Chick.

[eprobert]

Why are none of the downtown boosters addressing the primary valid concern - that the prices are in line with a fully gentrified and safe neighborhood, which it, objectively, is not?

At $250-$300,000 for a loft you can overlook a lot of "grittiness" but at $700,000 you cannot.

I love downtown but I'd never move there with the current insane prices. I've had numerous friends who tried and gave up in the end, lucky for them they were renters.

Like others have mentioned the greedy developers tried to short-circuit the process.

And to the person above who claimed that they walked to the Ralph's and Coffee Bean last summer - it didn't open until mid-august!

[IToldu2CashOut]

I've been looking at the developments downtown for a few months now and I think there is a lot going for the area, however it is extremely overpriced so I refuse to buy even though I could afford it. I do not work downtown, but I'm down there about once or twice a week. I think the industrial area featured in the article is a place I can't picture myself living. This is the worst area of downtown by far. Why live downtown if you are so outside of downtown? The area just seems dead and is cut off from the heart of the city. The only thing it has going for it is the view of the city because it isn't really in it. The prices are just insane. I value them at more than half of what they are asking and this is what scares me. My main concerns are the following:

1. Prices will continue to go down. How will this effect future development? Will the developers just leave if they can only get 250k instead of 500k? If so I'm screwed living in a crap hole ghetto.
2. Transportation to the West Side. Traffic on the 10W is insane in the morning. The expo line phase one will not be done till 2010. Phase II who knows? Even when it is done the expo line goes through 2 of the top 10 gang areas in LA. Subway down wilshire would be a godsend but might never happen.
3. Prices are not inline with what you get. 500-700sf is not reasonable for an area with the problems downtown has. Prices should be 250sf but does that kill incentive for development?
4. Recession coming. What does this do to gentrification and future prospects?
5. Developers downtown are shady. Places like the Chapman have been lying about Square Footage. Read about it on la.curbed.com.
6. Now I learn downtown is scary to girls. So much for my new pad impressing the ladies.

Main thing stopping me is price though. Drop the price and I might risk it, but im not going to be fooled by slick marketing and slimy salesman. Just lower the asking price to the real value and we'll talk.

[Bob]

LA Downtown - a number of people have invested time, money and careers to halt the further decay of old downtown Los Angeles. To their credit they have stopped erosion of the historic district, and brought life back to the streets.

Downtown is another neighborhood in this great and diverse city. Perhaps the downtown boosters are naive. Then again it takes dreamers to imagine possibilities. This is downtown now - possibilities.

Those Angelino's investing in the long term health of our town will be rewarded. Years of neglect take years of investment and TLC to show results. Give it time, and give those with vision credit for the work accomplished.

[Bert Green]

"I find it entertaining that most of the ardent supporters are men.

Being a single woman who lived downtown, walked downtown, went carless (rode a bike or took the bus) as much as possible for three years, the heinous things that I was verbally and physically threatened with would make your ears burn."

Many of my neighbors are single women. They don't agree with you about being female and living downtown. Don't think you are speaking for others. I am sorry if you had problems, but, again, downtown is not one single neighborhood. It is 16 distinct districts. Some are better than others. Sorry for you that you made a bad choice and moved somewhere where you could not handle it.

[NT]

Everything is within walking distance in Manhattan, Schools, local Bakeries, Markets, Eateries, Subways,
Churches...Everything you want and need in your neighborhood. Downtown LA ??? You don't only build
lofts and apartments and expect people to move in, you need to build a neighborhood.

[EconE]

Great blog entries by an "Urban Pioneer" in Seattle...

http://2200life.blogspot.com/2007/03/survival-of-fittest_31.htm

http://2200life.blogspot.com/2007/03/living-in-condo-vs-living-in-house-part.html

http://2200life.blogspot.com/2007/03/comcast-cable-issues-with-security.htmll

[Hugo Chavez]

Poor Peter, can't win with this one either. Westside people just have no clue about downtown. Oh, and how has that RE agent recovering?

[OMega Man]

Remeber the movie OMEGA MAN? Thats what LA is really like on the weekends. Just replace the hooded bad guys with junkies and homeless people. Dont forget all the mexicans and MS13 gang members. They rock!

The Mayor is a real upstanding guy to give Cali back to mexico. Mexico is a really nice place, thats why they all come over here to make it more like there!

Viva mexico!

[Uncle Billy Climbs Mont Pelerin]

Here, go see for yourself -- traditional gang bangers probably won't attack a motley bunch of bloggers (another form of banger) on an artwalk:

http://www.downtownartwalk.com/

Next walk May 8.

29 Galleries. 11 restaurants. 5 bars. 3 "entertainments"

On 2nd thought, don't patronize those galleries. They're just as bad as investment banks, rating agencies, and hedge funds, creating illusions of "value." Just have a nice walk.

[xtine]

eprobert -

This downtown booster agrees with you 100%. You cannot lure in the sorry sods who will pay 700k until the artists (canaries in the coal mine) have taken over. And we're far from that.

These 700k lofts are GROSS padded box hotels and not not true industrial lofts. They're high ceilinged condo/hotels and I wouldn't even pay 300K for one.

[Steve]

I worked in downtown LA for 30 years and finally got the testicles to leave thank God. Like I stated above I have visited every major city in the world and I have to say downtown LA would be the last on my list to live. If you are thinking about buying an overpriced dump in LA I highly recommend you take a close look at Denver first. That is right Cow Town Denver has 10X the qaulity of city life then the hell hole of downtown LA and the best part you don't get killed in front of your over priced loft.