A drive-by, an AK-47 and SWAT: Welcome to your starter neighborhood

In a report earlier this week, the California Association of Realtors discussed affordability of "entry level" homes in Los Angeles. The Realtors calculated it would take household income of $86,700 a year to buy a home priced at $433,200, which the Realtors figure is an entry-level home in this county. Only 27 percent of the households in the county can afford that, the group said.

What kind of home might you get for that kind of money? And in what kind of neighborhood? For $399,800, you could buy a very small house on Estara Avenue just north of downtown. Two bedrooms, one bath, only 572 square feet.

The listing describes this little house as a "First time Buyer's Alternative ...  a great property with good size fenced Yard lots of room for your children to Play."

While playing, your children could look out in the street and see the terrifying scene above. The house is a stone's throw from the spot where police today shot and killed one man and wounded another after a wild incident that began with a drive-by shooting.

I don't mean to pick on this neighborhood -- there are no doubt hard-working people there struggling to make a better life, and home ownership plays a role in that quest. My point is this: There is something not right about paying $400,000 for a tiny house in a neighborhood the police described today as "a base of operations for Avenues gang members."

Four hundred thousand dollars for a tiny house in a neighborhood where violence is common, according to a man named Juan Soto. "This kind of incident happens about once a month," Soto told the L.A. Times. "This is not the first time."

I understand that Los Angeles has become a very expensive city in recent years. I'm afraid I don't fully understand why.

Thoughts? Comments? E-mail story tips to peter.viles@latimes.com
Photo credit: L.A. Times

Comments

[Kate]

Of course, that's hardly the only neighborhood with prices in that range, and it's far from the quietest. I agree that the prices for that location are ridiculous, but there are other options.

[formerlahomeowner]

What's not to like?
572 sq foot house: $399,800
AK-47 assault rifle: $1000
Bullets: $50
Homeownership: Priceless

[toby]

I laughed when I saw 300,000 dollar Condos in Watts.

The simple truth is that LA prices are still wildly overpriced, even for LA standards.

[chanko]

hmm...$433,200 is a little steep for a household income of $86,000. All the mortgage calculators generate a price well below $433,200 even with 20% down. For that household income you're looking at mid 300's and that's with little debt and a substantial down payment. Sounds like CAR is trying to drum up business with their creative estimates.

[Laker]

Another nice DUMP. This one is actually "nicer" and "safer" than the one in lawndale...
Seriously, i think there is an extra zero as this place is maybe worth $40,000...
After thinking about it, i would not go there if you pay me $40,000!
Dump an dumper....
What a joke!

[T Hebb]

Peter earns my respect for daring to voice his honest wonder at the price of homes here in the City of Angels. There will be many seasoned, cynical and sophisticated observers with ready explanations for why prices are what they are. But none of those explanations will truly satisfy. In the end, it may be market forces inexorably grinding prices down to earth that offer the only satisfactory resolution to the question.

[Kathryn]

Wow! 400K for a 572 sq foot home. Is this one of those fantastic buys in metro LA that Lefty keeps posting about?

Prices seem to be coming down much faster further away from LA, in the safer but albeit more boring suburbs. In Simi Valley, there are quite a few decent starter homes in the 299K-335K range. Good schools, no drive-bys.

I was actually thinking that the prices might be coming down to rather affordable levels. Looks like rational thinking hasn't come to LA yet. It'll be interesting to see what that house on Estara Avenue actually sells for,

[Cal]

The home next door to where that SWAT officer was killed was for sale. It's a foreclosure that started at 479k over 200 days ago, now it is 345k. The low end is what saw the most appreciation in LA (look at the Case/Shiller broken out by quartiles) because that was the places where the new found access to credit was most widely felt and were least likely to be financially literate enough to understand it.

Now that the support has been taken away and the poorer people dont have the luxury of denial of reality, it will be what falls first and faster. The higher end up the ladder still doesnt realize they need those first and second move up buyers to get out of their homes but have enough money where they (nervously) stick to their asking price and pray for an offer.

[Keith]

You lay awake at night wondering if your aim will get better before your ARM resets

[Andrew W.]

I live in a house that is brand new, is 6 times bigger (sits on a half acre), costs half as much, and is so safe you don't even need to lock your doors at night.....

My advice to those who live in California: ............ Move to a new state....

[peter m]

That area is a classic gang pocket and there are 1000's of them all over LA/IE, Vent County,ect. One near the westside is Baldwin Village. Another is Harbor Gateway near 205th st, home of the 205th gang. Behind burbank airport is another gang nest. They are everywhere even in the westside and are endemic to LA. The cities of Cudahy & Maywood may be considered as the private fiefdoms of the 18th st gang. Wilmington is one gigantic gang turf pocket. It is almost a natural feature of the LA landscape, similar to predatory pack animals staking out turf in the african savanna.
To get back to that area of the shooting it is somewhat isolated by railroad/fwy barriers and tucked away in a forgotten dark corner of LA which is why the gangs sprout & flourish there. Only when there is a large gang eruption involving massive LAPD presense does the spotlight get thrown in these forgotten ghetto pockets, like throwing a light in a dank & darkened home corner and watching the cockroachs scurry away .
A 15 X 10 mile swath of South LA(150 sq miles,comprising 1/3 of LA's total area) ,the part which largely comprises Scentral, is basically one gigantic third- world ghetto pocket. I have been perusing home sales and prices in these areas as a hobby last two years and have seen 80-100 year old 2/1 800 sq ft crackshacks in these parts going as high as $500-600,000 as late as June 2007 when appraisal fraud/ quick fix and flips/ cashbacks were running thru the ghetto like a virus .
Fraudulent sales & pricing in the LA ghettos was the norm 2005-2007.

[Rachel]

My husband works on the street where the violence
took place today.
When I dropped him off at work I noted a townhome of
brand new construction that had been sitting on the market for about 6 months. Price: $650,000 now dropped
to $599,000. This brand new construction is set amongst
slum apartments.
Every morning you see the hard working residents of
these slum apartments walking to the bus stop.
This is your starter neighborhood.

[Stump Barnes]

Perhaps CAR should file a friend-of-the-court brief in the "District of Columbia vs. Heller" supporting the individual rights view of the 2nd Amendment. Afterall, these starter home borrowers are going to require some serious firepower to survive until they can breakeven on their home purchase he middle of the next decade.

Even better maybe OTS or Sen. Chris Dodd with include some sort of assault rifle giveaway with their government bailout of loser home borrowers.

[brettdl]

I just took a look at Realtor.com's calculator. A family with an income of $86,700 and $300 monthly debt payments can afford a home no more expensive than $254,777, presuming they put down $20,000.

A more likely scenario:
Income: $87,600
Monthly Debt Payments (car loan, credit cards, furniture): $600 a month
Total down: $10,000

Maximum home affordability: $127,389

[John T Watts]

So get on Realtor.com and find out what you can get for $400,000.00 in other parts of the country and get out of town.

[Willie]

The bubble still much alive in the price of this shack. Of course you need a big yard to accomodate yourself and the children in tents since there is barely any space inside, but for a kitchen, a bath and the semblance of some living space. My master room is bigger than this dump! Oh, at least you have a big driveway so you can accomodate the Escalade and the ghetto Bentley!

[JK]

This area and others surrounding it have been taken over by illegal immigrants and their gangbanging children. This is part of the reason housing in "safer" neighborhoods (read: the Westside, Santa Monica...) have become so darn expensive. People aren't just looking for a trendy area, they are looking for a safe place to raise their families, good schools for their children (where at least most of the other students speak English) and they can go out to the mailbox without a bulletproof vest. It's amazing what the citizens of this country have allowed to happen to Los Angeles.

[chris]

There is way too much vitriol in this post and comments -
"struggling" "slum" "illegal immigrants".
Maybe prices are high within central Los Angeles because hard working people actually want to live in central Los Angeles, not way out in a white-washed suburb. Agreed, this 572 sq ft home is way overpriced. $399 is also only the asking price. Someone will buy it because someone wants to live there, someone who doesn't fear their "hard-working" neighbor.

[kwk]

According to "Zillow" that exact property sold for $250,000 on 5/15/2007. Of course, the "Z-estimate" for the property today is $410,000, so that give the current owner the gall to list his at $399,000. What a pipe dream.

I'm one of the lucky ones that moved out of California back in June 06, and I am certainly glad I did.

[ray]

Gangbanging and drug dealing, how else are you going to afford a home in LA? Time to move to Detroit, at housing is cheaper.

[Fourth Generation]

It is amazing that xenophobic bigots like JK still live in this country..........

[Todd]

I know this pocket well. As a Silverlake/Echo Park investor I found myself in this pocket looking for deals. It is rough indeed. 9 unit non rent control on Andrita listed for more than a year. 8 unit on Drew listed for more than a year. Many people bought in this area 2004 to 2006 just jumping in blind not really knowing the area. They see the 90039 zip code and just bought. This is an armpit of an area due to gangs indeed. It is know that anything between the cemetary and 2 fwy is no where to invest.

[jaded]

what's xenophobic or bigoted about correctly stating that plenty of poor areas are full of illegal immigrants and their gangbanging children?

what, you think the Avenues gang are 10th generation white Irish kids?

[migel]

Hey ray, you don't think they are gangbanging in Detroit you must not go outside.

These problems are everywhere. LA has a culture your not going to find anywhere else, and immigrants legal or otherwise help create that culture.

[left of lefty]

i just looked through redfin using <400k as a search criteria, and ran down the coast west of the 405. there are listings in malibu, pacific palisades, santa monica, marina del rey, el segundo, manhattan beach, redondo beach, torrance, rancho palos verdes, "good" areas of san pedro and long beach, huntington beach, and newport beach. then again, i suppose there are gang pockets everywhere in l.a. and orange county.

while i believe most of those are condos, they are good entry homes for young professionals who want to 'live a good life' rather than working the yard on weekends. i bought my first sfr when i was single a long time ago. and i hated the yard work. eventually i ended up paying someone else to do it. though now that i'm older, i've taken back doing my own yard work since my weekends are not as lively as before, and the exercise is good for me. i imagine as i get even older i'll downsize to condos again.

as for raising kids, each is entitled to his own methods. however, i believe children will learn and benefit more in a ... 'challenged' and 'culturally diverse' environment than the perfect suburbia that tvs and movies portray. they may feel uncomfortable among other children who don't speak english, but they'll either learn another language (a good thing) or learn to work and function among people who are different than they are (also a good thing). and as you upgrade your home through the years, your children will see their parents making various sacrifices and overcome many challenges. they'll understand the relationship between work and reward. these are lessons that can only be learned after they're old enough to reflect back on their own history, but it's well worth the effort.

[sandiegan]

"I understand that Los Angeles has become a very expensive city in recent years. I'm afraid I don't fully understand why."

Money.
Jobs.
Poverty, real poverty,poverty of hunger, disease, filth and much, much worse violence across the border in Mexico.
Weather.
Growth.
Urban attractions.
Cheap credit.

As for what happened in NE LAX yesterday: it was horrible. But it is NOT limited to bad 'hoods in LAX.

We have firepower...and we are willing to use it.
Even in affluent suburbs.
Even in university classrooms.

Anyone who thinks they can flee gun violence completely in the US is a fool.

No.
This is not an anti-2nd ammendment rant.
Just a reminder that we are all in this, no matter where we live in this country.

[kat]

You can buy a $400,000 home on a $86,000 household income?! What the hell. Is the math different out there too?

My household income is a modest $115,000. There is no way in hell I could afford a $3,000 a month mortgage. No way. Not even if I didn't have a kid in college and one on the way to college would I be willing to pay $3,000 a month to live in a dump.

Who comes up with these figures anyway? No wonder fast food managers have million dollar homes in foreclosure.

Here is what seems to be "normal" in California: A 525 sq. ft. home in a DMZ is $400,000. People with an annual income of $86,000 can "afford" a $400,000 mortgage. A "starter" home is half a million dollars.

Folks, you have more troubles than a slumping housing market.

[PREFAB SPROUT]

LA is fast becoming New York City. The super rich live in their gate/guarded communities with private patrols. The poor live in increasingly violent neighborhoods. And the middle class is beating a hasty retreat to the suburbs or out of state. As a lucky SoCal resident who bailed out 5 yrs ago all I can say is good luck to those I left behind!

[TakeFive]

Fourth Generation wrote:

"It is amazing that xenophobic bigots like JK still live in this country.........."

Yes, let's live in denial about any causes for these problems that may offend our politically correct sensibilities.

The fact is L.A. has essentially protected illegal aliens - see Special Order 40 – and created a large cohort of lawbreakers. When people start to take shortcuts, whether ethical, moral, or in business, they tend to take them again and again.

So someone’s in the country illegally, but they just want to do honest work. Sounds good. But they need to drive and can’t get a license so they drive with out one. Ditto for car insurance. Have an accident – no problem, your invisible to the system. Need a new identity – again, no problem. You can even open a bank account and get a home loan.

See where this is going?

So here’s the deal “Fourth Generation”. Open the doors to your home. Let anyone wander in and make themselves at home. And if you so much as say one unkind word, consider yourself a bigot.

[CD]

In Peter's post yesterday :" please cover the other side"
One of your blogger: -No WayinLA- had an excellent comment. If I may repeat a portion here again because he nailed it:
-The short form of this is that, though housing prices will continue to plummet, they may not be affordable yet. The people who worked hard to save, living in a dumpy apartment in a scary neighborhood will see their savings reduced by inflation and taxes. Add that to crumbling neighborhoods, and this will accelerate the flight of the middle class from the state...Which in turn contributes to urban decay, flight of businesses ( gotta go where the talent is) and the loss of all the tax revenue the two produce.-
NowayinLA is showing us the correct vision of the future. Lets get the big Atlas out, I am going to find a new place to live.

[abbytherabbit]

You can get a nice home in Canoga Park, the nicer side, for the mid 300k and lower 400k. It's working class but not gang infested. I've lived there for over 5 years now and never had a problem. I work in Woodland Hills and spend $20 a week for gas and go home for lunch.

It is possible to get a starter home in LA without living in a slum.

[DSL]

JK is just stating facts, whether you choose to ignore it or not. Just learn to deal with it instead of falling back to the usual hyperdefensive liberal knee-jerk response.

[TrojanDLA]

To be fair, you can get a decent condo in Downtown LA for $430,000 or LESS. Since my specialty is Downtown condos, here's what I can throw out for people to compare:

MLS 07-237373: It's around 800 s.f. but HOA dues are $660/mo. Located on 1100 Wilshire, definitely an upgrade.

MLS 06-143073: or move to Bunker Hill at 800 W.1st and 700s.f. of living space. Though $625 HOA is still taxing.

MLS 08-245793: ok this Bunker Hill studio at 800 W.1st sounds like it will fit the bill. Although only 480s.f. , it ONLY lists for $387,000 but I guarantee you can get it for $350,000. HOA is better at $400.

Sooo... a family working hard to make $87,000 and can only move into a 480s.f. studio? Well, if it's all about location, that family will be living in Bunker Hill and attending the new school that's being built on Beaudry.

Yes, prices are exorbitant, but seriously, you don't "have to" live in Watts when you can live in Downtown for a comparable price. If I'm not mistaken, units at the new Chapman Lofts is starting at a little under $400,000 - BRAND NEW too.

[Left of Left of Lefty]

Hurry up and get inside before the bullets getcha! Now's a great time to buy in Metro L.A.!

[sheila]

if you have to wonder why it's so expensive here, clearly you don't look at the comments. 90% of people commenting here are GAGGING to buy a house in LA. yes, most of them are bitter they don't just automatically get a great house at a price they can afford in a good neighborhood, since that's what we have been brainwashed to believe we deserve, but they are desperate to buy here, all the same.

tons of people who make their money in less "glamorous" places move here when they "make it big." that means immigrants (yeah, there are plenty of rich ones, too, JKKK), midwesterners, inland empirers, etc. LA is perceived as desirable because of the beaches, the "hollywood" scene, the relative racial/cultural tolerance (certain posters here aside), the great weather and the comparative affordability to other major urban centers (you want to see expensive, check out NYC, London, Paris, Tokyo, Hong Kong!!!).

It's a global economy now, the dollar is ridiculously weak, many in our parents' generation made a KILLING on appreciation in RE, so they can shell out large down payments for their kids, Cleveland is still Cleveland, and LA will always be seen as a sunny, friendly, glamorous place to people who won't ever even have to drive near Glassell Park (as in, 90% of rich people).

Fair or not, not every home buyer in LA is a blue-collar, working joe, starting with nothing and frantically recalculating their debt-to-income ratio every monday morning, and socking away $250 of every paycheck for their down payment. You want to do that, you gotta move somewhere cheaper, make your money, and come back with a big wad of cash...

[Ed]

Posted by: Fourth Generation | February 22, 2008 at 08:08 AM

Fourth Generation said: "It is amazing that xenophobic bigots like JK still live in this country.........."

Fourth Generation, where exactly is the State of Denial that you live in? You and others like you have tossed the words "racist" around to where the term is now meaningless. Now you come up with "xenophobic bigot" when someone is discussing an area filled with illegal ALIENS and GANG-BANGERS. Do you know what a gang-banger is? Do you know what an illegal ALIEN is? JK called them "illegal immigrants," when in fact they're CRIMINALS and their children are CRIMINALS and they're filling up our prisons faster than stink on $hit. Get a life, you moron!

[john galt]

more facts: illegal immigrant sneaks across border, gets job using fake ss#. Easily gets ITIN number from IRS. Gets w2 from job and files taxes using ITIN number and claiming relatives in Mexico as dependents(who also have ITIN numbers). Illegal immigrant gets money from Fed. while the person's number he used gets a letter from IRS saying he owes money. Now, illegal immigrant finds a girl. Safe sex or contraception are not even a blip on their radar screens. So, illegal has a couple of kids and they all live in a converted garage. After a few more years and probably a few more children, illegal immigrant finds another woman, leaves the first with the children and starts to have children with the second. Years go by, kids grow up fatherless and in an environment where there's no possible way to succeed and...tada....gang problems.

[kosher krab]

Ahhh - you poor folk. From my living room I can look through the palm trees to watch the cruise ships come into a port that hasn't seen a homicide in decades. We just moved out of NELA and I couldn't be happier. That being said, I still wouldn't give up on Glassell Park. I think it's really on the cusp of becoming the next hot spot and this last incident may just be the catalyst needed to saturate the area with LAPD and get rid of the Avenues. Remember how scary Atwater Village used to be? That area turned around so fast after the police crack down that I missed being able to buy on the "ground floor". Silver Lake took a little longer to spruce up, but then Echo Park rose overnight. I think closer to downtown is the way of the future, Glassell Park is poised to reap the benefits of being between Silver Lake, Eagle Rock and downtown. The smoke just needs to settle a bit.

[xtine]

PREFAB-Wake up.

THERE ARE NO GATED COMMUNITIES IN NEW YORK CITY.

Private patrols? WHAT? Are you out of your mind?

Have you even lived in NYC?

Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Because NYC is dense, tight and anti car - NO ONE lives in a bubble. Because of rent control and rent stabilization left over even in the richest nabes, it is one of the most diversely mixed cities in the country. The subways, which even the most affluent folks use, are dense with people of all walks of life. Cantral Park is 100% accessible and is the entire city's backyard.

You can't run away in New York. You live in the middle of everything.

I keep reading your post and wondering what fictional accout you get your information from. Is this what middle America thinks NYC is? Gated communities with private patrols? Ugh.

[The Problemwithcaring]

Back when I was a potential knife catcher, my realtor pressed me toward the neighborhoods around 90032 - the next gentrified area!

yea right.

and thank gawd!

[puckehad]

"I live in a house that is brand new, is 6 times bigger (sits on a half acre), costs half as much, and is so safe you don't even need to lock your doors at night.....

My advice to those who live in California: ............ Move to a new state...."

For a while I had the same thought. Until I did some researched and found out that I would have a hard time finding a job in my profession. And if I did, I would have to take a 50% paycut. And I also would not be able to mountain bike and ski on the same day. That's the flip side of moving out of state.

[Ed]

Posted by: chris | February 22, 2008 at 06:59 AM

Chris said, "There is way too much vitriol in this post and comments - "struggling" "slum" "illegal immigrants".....................hard working people actually want to live in central Los Angeles, not way out in a white-washed suburb....."

Hey Chris - It's okay to be vitriolic and use terms like "white-washed"? Sounds xenophobic and bigoted to me. Sure is a one-way street, isn't it?!

Better watch your mouth. You're offending the liberal sensibilities of people like Fourth Generation. Oh wait, he's no doubt white. No offense taken with him because there's no "mileage" he can get out of it.

[ScreenScribbler]

I have to say this post is somewhat seeped in Westside snobbery. People adore Venice, and it's chocked with celebs like Julia Roberts. It's also a great place to find crack vials and hypodermics scattered on the sidewalk, to stumble on a dead homeless person in a puddle of urine, to hear the sound of drive-by gunfire during the dinner hour. So while Estara Avenue may not be paradise, the prices there are less than half of what they are in Venice. When will you be doing a piece on ridiculous prices in trendy-but-crime-infested 310 neighborhoods?

[Cal]

abbytherabbit: "It's working class but not gang infested. I've lived there for over 5 years now and never had a problem."

Uhh, Canoga Park is home to the to the worst gang in LA according to the top 10 list released by Mayor Villiarogosa, the Alabama's.

Google: Canoga Park alabama gang

Canoga Park has some ok areas but those areas are within walking distance of the bad areas. But then again, so are some of the nicest parts of Pasadena.

[Helpful Person]

Peter: maybe consider moving back to NYC. Im sure that you guys can afford in Manhattan or Brooklyn, right? And there's no violent crime there either, right?

Of if that doesn't work out, just cut to the chase and move to Idaho already.

[Anonymous]

To all the angry commenters who love to bandy around empty catchphrases like "politcally correct" and "liberal knee-jerk," you might want to consider the facts and then calm down a little bit. I imagine you've never been to Detroit, Oakland, or Baltimore, cities with far worse crime/gang problems and far lower percentages of illegal immigrants. Gang problems have everything to do with poverty and very little to do with whether a person is a citizen or an illegal immigrant. Your seething anger comes through your comments so vividly that I doubt it's a healthy state of being. You should probably seek help.

[jaded]

Kat (and all you other out-of-staters),

yes, living in California can be a pain in the as$, but quit wagging your superior little fingers at us. You don't really know what you're missing, do you?

Let's start with the mild winters, and short sleeves on Christmas Day. The change of seasons, snow, whatever--grossly overrated. Let's talk about spring flowers and green hills in February, and cheap and plentiful fresh fruits and vegetables any time of year, and neighbors giving you more homegrown lemons, avocados and tomatoes than you can possibly eat. Let's talk about driving up to ski Big Bear on Saturday, and out to 85-degree Palm Springs on Sunday, or sailing out on the ocean less than an hour from your front door. How about dropping in on a world-class museum, and window shopping Cartier at South Coast Plaza? How about taking in a Dodger game on a perfect summer night, or sunning yourself at the Rose Bowl at a football game in November, with the San Gabriel Mountains as a backdrop? What about checking out the Ferraris in Newport Beach, and then taking a long walk around the Back Bay with herons and kingfishers and birds you've never even heard of? Let's talk about the fires and the landslides and all the other natural disasters we have because we live in a wild land, and not some flat, square state. How about Thai food made by Thais and Ethiopian and Cuban and Moroccan restaurants, and the hole in the wall places where you can get some of the best food in the world?

You can live in BF Arkansas or Indiana, or any other place you want where the houses cost $35,000 on an acre of swamp land and there's nothing to do but while away time at the local Walmart, or shovel snow or swat mosquitoes as big as birds. But stop tsk-tsking about how bad it must be to be here, because you don't know what you're talking about.

Me, I'm staying here, in my small, overpriced suburban house with the patio and the community pool and the outdoor mall down the backed-up freeway, because life is pretty damn nice here, all things considered.

[SGV]

About 20 years ago, I was DWP meter reader and that area (Drew, Andrita, etc) was my "beat" over a span of about 5-7 years. During that time, I watched how, slowly but methodically, numerous single-family homes (really nice, cute 1910-era Craftsman bungalows with generous yards) were being replaced with large apartments. These appeared to be low-income units as I remember stepping into dirty diapers that were thrown out of windows regularly, or waded through piles of trash left for weeks. Stripped down, or disabled cars on the street were a common sight.

The families of the single-family homes moved away -- one by one -- as the neighborhood quickly turned into a ghetto slum due to the aggressive development. I can't count the number of my customers who said they were "getting the heck outta' there due to the quickly deteriorating neighborhood.

I am a "non-white." It is with that perspective that I can say that unfortunately, Mr. John Galt hit it right on the head.

[clive]

Money. (not changed in the last 5 years)
Jobs. (not changed in the last 5 years)
Poverty, real poverty,poverty of hunger, disease, filth and much, much worse violence across the border in Mexico. (not changed in the last 5 years)
Weather. (not changed in the last 5 years)
Growth. (not changed in the last 5 years)
Urban attractions. (not changed in the last 5 years)
Cheap credit. (Big change in the last 5 years)

Hmmm, wonder what's behind the increased prices, and if it'll last?

And LA becoming like New York? Hilarious. I didn't realize LA just became one of the world's financial capitals. Where's the stock exchange?

[Paul]

The Avenues gang aren't illegal immigrants. They've been prevalent since the 1950s.

[JesusCrispy]

Puckehad,
There are far better places to ski and ride bikes than LA believe it or not. Even in the same day. Utah, Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico all have better skiing than California, hands down. And for mountain/road bikeing ever hear of Moab? Well there are a lot of mini-Moabs that are either in or near population centers in the Rockies. Californians are so lame, they think that Cali is King but it really sucks, bad.

[kat]

Jaded,
I'm not shaking my finger at you. I used to live in California. I loved it. But not that much . . . not enough to not be able to go and eat because of the size of my mortage (and I really, really missed the change of seasons - even with the snow and I hated the six month droughts). California is a wonderful place and I never said it wasn't. In fact, my son might be out there in OC soon.

But it's a pitiful damn shame that people who work hard and do everything right can't buy a house if they want to. All I'm saying is that things are way, way, way out of whack out there nowadays. It should not be the crap shoot, the financial risk, and the heartache it is in California to live in a house with a yard. Hell, buying a house in California is like being in a trading pit from hell - move at the wrong time get stuck . . . don't move at the right time and get priced out . . . wait to long and over pay . . hold on too long and lose your as*s.

How did things get like this? How is it that good working people look upon nice homes like they are the holy grail? Or a dream? Or something other people have?

That reminds me of something I've also been wondering about. Where I live, people buy a house and live in it for a long time. . . sometimes until they die. I have the same nieghbors I've had since I bought my house 12 years ago. Are houses just investments in CA? Do people buy them then cash in when prices skyrocket? Are there a culture of people there who are in houses they bought in the 80s or the 90s who are in it for the long haul? Or are they kicking themselves for not cashing out three years ago?

If anything, Jaded, this makes me angry. I truly beleive it would not be this way if CA had not been overrun by illegals. They have taken over the formerly middle class neighborhoods and set out Americans to fight over a limited amount of premium space. You all should be mad as freaking hell.

[Chris]

Anonymous @ 11:29,

Do you get any general impressions regarding illegal immigration and crime when looking at this page?

http://www.lapdonline.org/all_most_wanted

[areles]

thanks, jaded, for reminding me why i'm still here 17 years later. :)

(although i do miss enjoying a real autumn.)

[abbytherabbit]

Yes Cal admittedly Canoga Park isn't Woodland Hills, nor is it priced as such. The areas between Sherman Way and Saticoy are not good (91303). However north of Saticoy it is nice enough. (91304) I have a nice sized house and yard and my daughter can ride her bicycle around our quite little neighborhood. The schools here are not good but I have my daughter in a Woodland Hills school on a work permit.

It might not be for everybody but you might not want to just dismiss it either. The prices have come down and it's now within the realm of possibility for a first time home buyer.

[Chris]

Ed - I appreciate your calling me out on my vitriolic use of 'white-washed'. When i read this post there were less than 20 comments, and none of them (as well as the original post) were speaking for the other side - the people who live in these neighborhoods, yes are hard working, and perhaps are illegal immigrants. But the overwhelming tone here has been ignorance, ignorance of the reality of most of Los Angeles. White Los Angeles - those with power, wealth, property - would rather ignore and segregate any civic problem, rather than seek solutions. If people do not want to be constructive in creating a healthy community here in Los Angeles, just stay away. Stay in your overpriced stucco rental while the rest of us enjoy our eastside communities.

[areles]

Be that as it may, Jesus Crispy, but you aren't posting on the website a Utah, Idaho, Colorado, or New Mexico newspaper about RE in any of *those* states, now are you?

[John Galt]

Thanks for agreeing SGV. Now, LET"S DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Stop the cycle by: 1. requiring food stamp recipients to go to contraception classes(possibly forcing contraception, i.e. - you want the stamps? okay, take this pill first). 2. Enforce the labor laws! Bust companies that hire illegals, set up federal data base that is mandatory for companies to verify socials. Have the IRS scrutinize ITIN numbers. and 3. White/middle class people, move back to these areas. Instead of abandoning them, get involved in shaping policy and laws so that a safe and healthy living environment is created for everyone. White people are as guilty as anyone else because they moved out of the areas and refused to deal with problems and their own racism.

[puckhead]

Puckehad,
"There are far better places to ski and ride bikes than LA believe it or not. Even in the same day. Utah, Idaho, Colorado, New Mexico all have better skiing than California, hands down. And for mountain/road bikeing ever hear of Moab? Well there are a lot of mini-Moabs that are either in or near population centers in the Rockies. Californians are so lame, they think that Cali is King but it really sucks, bad."

LOL's yeah I've been to all of those places. I've traveled all over the world and most of the US. I would love to live near Moab. For what I do, my billing rate is $200/hour. LA businesses don't blink twice and pay that. No one near Moab will pay that. Hence my problem.

[peter m]

"This area and others surrounding it have been taken over by illegal immigrants and their gangbanging children. This is part of the reason housing in "safer" neighborhoods (read: the Westside, Santa Monica...) have become so darn expensive. People aren't just looking for a trendy area, they are looking for a safe place to raise their families, good schools for their children (where at least most of the other students speak English) and they can go out to the mailbox without a bulletproof vest. It's amazing what the citizens of this country have allowed to happen to Los Angeles."

The ghettoization and conversion of LA into a humongous third-world festering gang-infested black hole region is largely ignored by the MSM especially our LA times due Mainly to igorance, naivety or PC correctness. Very few have been out to all these ghetto hoods to actually see the ramsnackle century- old crackshacks in graffitied slums selling for 1/2 million or more in impoverished illegal-alien packed slumzones where average household income is $45,000-50,000 at most(real, not stated liar incomes)

These are just three chosen slumzips to give an example:there are hundreds of slumzone zips like these all over LA county. I looked at data for home prices/ sales in many of these slumzones last 2 years and have been thru many of these hoods.

In Pacoima 91331 i saw homes selling for $500,000+ and a few listed as high as 3/4 of a million. Pacoima is one of the worst slums areas of the east SVF and a hotzone for RE fraudulent activity.

Lennox 90304(Inglewood/lax area) is one of nastiest blighted slumburgs in LA
yet i saw ton's of teardown/refurbished quick fix & flip 2/1,s going for $450,00-500,000 as late as last june.

LA zip 90011 which is directly south of LA dwtn is a real nasty polluted inner LA ghetto zip within earshot of dwtn. Median prices here averaged close to 1/2 mil in mid-2007. There was so much dumping and polluting in this hood, as with most of the ghetto hoods i've been thru, that it could have been declared an EPA superfund site.

The few affordable safe options in LA area:

If u are looking for a relativey safe decent affordable area close to the coastal hi=paying areas of westside, dwtn & Southbay there are few options in LA as most areas have declined into third-world immigrant-clogged tenement stews.

Lakewood has really small 1000-1200 sq ft WWII era built sfh's and it is still relatively clean and respectablly kept up. Prices are now close to or below $400,000.
Downey still OK & halfway decent and nearing $400,000
La mirada still kept up. Pico might be OK.

Carson & gardena have some bad pockets but if U pick & choose U might find a clean quiet street and a decent neighborhood.

These willl be some of the places for 'affordable' sfh starters close to dwtn/ westside which are not comopletely slummified.

[JK]

Fourth Generation, which part of my post is not true? The fact that you don't like the truth, doesn't make it go away

[JK]

Chris, the term "illegal immigrant" is a politically correct way to avoid using the correct LEGAL term: Illegal Alien. Clean it up however you want it doesn't change the fact that illegal immigration has had a disatruous effecrt on Los Angeles real estate and life in Los Angeles in general.

People are not afraid to live next door to hardworking neighbors, rich or poor. They are afraid of living next door to generations of gangbangers, sending their children to substandard overcrowded schools, not having access to an emergency room, being the only English speaking family in their neighborhood and living next door to a family of 20 living in a home built for 5.

People work hard for their money and they are entitled to resent an influx of illegal immigrants forcing them out of neighborhoods they were once able to afford. Calling them bigots or xenophobes because they are not comfortable living in the above noted conditions is just silly.

[kosher krab]

Colorado's for folks who didn't have the gumption to cross over the Rockies and Sierras. Calilfornia's the only state with all of the biotic zones (coastal to high sierra) and in LA you can visit the beach, city and snow all in a matter of hours. Coloradans suck, we should all cut off CO license plates on the freeway like they do us.

[JV]

As a new home owner in Glassell Park, I have to say I'm angered by the Times reporter suggesting that this is a bad neighborhood and by some of the comments on this blog. Yes - yesterday was a bad day and unfortunately, gang crime is a problem, but we live in a big city and there are pockets of crime everywhere. The fact is NELA IS a good starter area for new homeowners. There is a lot that this area has to offer. Beautiful historic homes at affordable prices and a growing community that is looking to the future. Please don't let this incident steer you away from moving to this area. Be smart and careful, but there is much to offer in this growing community. And, as Kosher Krab pointed out, it's takes time for neighborhoods to grow. Glassell Park is central to Eagle Rock, Dowtown, Silver Lake and Glendale. It's a great location with a real opportunity to be the next up & coming neighborhood. I love LA and wouldn't trade it for living anywhere.

[LeavinLA]

And you idiots wonder why so many of us have left.

[sfvrealestate]

Okay, I've bemoaned community blight from foreclosures on this post before. And I've been corrected by other long-time posters here that, no, prices just need to come down and other families will move in and turn the neighborhoods around.

Unfortunately, I think this story is an example of what really happens in chronically distressed neighborhoods. By the way, the mls says the lowest-priced house in Glassel Park is $195k.

[buz]

Wow. That is amazing that anyone would spent more than 70K for a crappy 500sqft house in Gangland. 400K is beyond insanity. I wouldn't hold my breath and hope for continued "gentrification" in these LA neighborhoods. I predict that crime/gangs/poverty will only worsen in these areas over the next decade as the economy fizzles and the state goes into recession. Cheers all.

[the outsider]

I left LA 5 years ago and am so glad. I bought a 3/3 2500 sf house on 1/4 acre, in a great working class town 45 minutes to an international airport. I have a 5 minute commute, my doors are never locked, and at night I can see the stars. I don't pay any income tax, my sales tax is lower than LA county's, and I make about 20% more than I would have in LA.

And my HOA are $360... per year.

I'm still stunned by what people are willing to do to live in LA. It's all a delusion - LA is not the center of the world. There is more to life than Hollywood, convertible Hummers, and the Venice boardwalk. See the rest of the country - it's beautiful and a lot cheaper and friendlier!

[deetster]

My husband and I, almost a year ago, ventured into that area allured by the andrita court townhomes website. We were shocked at the deplorable, ghetto surrounding neighborhood. Clearly we balked at the $650K asking price. I guess we are just not "hip" enough to appreciate this up and coming community.

We will continue to wait on the sidelines and watch this house of cards of los angeles real estate to crash. Wake up Angelenos.

[what]

Gee, when did this blog turn into an illegal alien bashing forum?
OK sure, there are some illegal aliens who cause problems in society, but people should be directing their anger more at the white collar criminals on Wall Street and in your government. They're the folks who have done waaaaay more damage to this country than any illegal aliens have ever done.

[Kathryn]

Sure, Glassell Park sounds like a great up and coming neighborhood until you check out the violent crime statistics for the 90065 zip. 8 out of 10 for violent crimes!
http://www.bestplaces.net/zip-code/
Los_Angeles_CA-79006500051.aspx

These type of crime statistics can't help starter neighorhoods like this when buyers are doing more and more research online. Sites like Movoto.com already are including statistics about the neighborhood like crime, school scores, demographics, etc on each listing.

For me, safety is the most important thing when buying a home. I don't care where a house is located or how affordable it is, who wants to pay for house that's surrounded by gangs and violence? At least with renting, you can move, but locking yourself into a house, hoping the area improves? No thanks, that's way too risky of an investment.

[Willie]

JK wrote:

"Chris, the term "illegal immigrant" is a politically correct way to avoid using the correct LEGAL term: Illegal Alien."

Both of you are incorrect!!! The politically correct term for "illegal immigrant" or "illegal alien" is "without inspection." They are in the country without inspection, meaning that they came in without being inspected by immigration authorities or "illegaly."

[Steve]

It is not the price of these dumps, it is now the scum that has been imported to LA that live ther. The sad reality is that ICE has no guts to correct the root cause of this scum, which is illegal immigration. Please note what the Asian cultures have added and accomplished in the LA area, while this Scum of mankind continues to kill each other like they do in their native country. This is why you are insane to stay in this hell hole because it will never change. l was a CA native and left 14 years ago so my kids would not get shot and where they give away RE. It is this simple get out while you can, because now the scum is moving to the majority and CA will never be the same. Thanks GW and ICE

[Tombstone Realty]

I'm still wildly amused at the idea expressed around here that itinerant fruit pickers or lawnworkers from Mexico are going around buying all 'our' houses.

I work for a major institution, have health benefits - and I can't afford to own.

And don't say "Oh, they live 30 to a house", because they STILL couldn't afford the mortgage. And without all these free laborers, the house you'd want to buy would be even MORE expensive to live in.

Let's just say it for what it is - the reason why LA is so expensive is greed. Full stop. Who wants to pay a white man $40/hour to mow your lawn, when you can get some immigrant guy to do it for $15.

[Steve]

Love the LA Most Wanted site, that basically explains it all.

http://www.lapdonline.org/all_most_wanted

[AMerican]

Why would anyone pay $700k to live next to GangBangers and an extended family of 14 people is beyond me. Is it any wonder housing is not just set for a decline, but for a crash? As in a 60% drop!

The greater fool theory is over. Free Credit to lying illegal alien is over! No one is buying your stupid turnip! The RE Ponzi Scheme is done. To all RE Agents, find a real job.

[Sara]

The main reason real estate prices went through the roof? Greed. New builders in my area boosted their prices by over $200k per home and then a buying frenzy ensued- in 2005, 2006. Now these same homes are coming onto the MLS every day as short sales/pre-foreclosures at prices that are still out of reach for most buyers. I dont live in LA proper, I am in the Inland Empire- but greed and its by products are everywhere. Greed doesnt discriminate and it is not limited to one racial or ethnic group. We are all victims of greed.

[EveryonesAnImmigrant]

The Rich wanted cheap housekeepers, the Flippers wanted cheap skilled labor, Manufacturers wanted drones who would work cheap and not raise a fuss, Big Business wanted to subvert the Unions and on and on.

They got what they wanted and now we're dealing with the socio-political consequences of their greed.

Privatize the profit, socialize the risk.

Same as it ever was.

[keith]

"But the overwhelming tone here has been ignorance, ignorance of the reality of most of Los Angeles. White Los Angeles - those with power, wealth, property - would rather ignore and segregate any civic problem, rather than seek solutions. If people do not want to be constructive in creating a healthy community here in Los Angeles, just stay away. Stay in your overpriced stucco rental while the rest of us enjoy our eastside communities."

Chris - What are you talking about? LA has spent tons of money on "gang eradication" and fighting drugs - a principal source of gang income - for years. And yes gangs are mostly latin, african-american and asian, not white. There is no gov't solution to gangs in L.A., it's a cultural issue.

[JK]

Tombstone,

I think that is the misconception a lot of people have. The illegal immigrants in Los Angeles are no longer just fruit pickers and lawn mowers. They have a lot of middle class jobs that used to go to Black Americans that once lived in that area. (Which probably accounts for a lot of the racial tension between the two groups) In South Central Los Angeles, a $15-$20 construction job will allow you to buy a starter home. Construction, grocery work, public utility work was how a lot of Blacks elevated themselves into the middle class. Those opportunites are gone for them now, given over to people that the rest of the country think are making $5/hr as fruitpickers. This is how they have afforded the homes. And yes, many families live in single homes until each can afford their own.

I don't begrudge anyone who works hard to be able to buy a home. My anger comes from locking Americans out of these middle class jobs (of which very few are left) and then making their neighborhoods so unbearable, they are forced to move further and further away from job centers.

[JK]

Gee, when did this blog turn into an illegal alien bashing forum?
OK sure, there are some illegal aliens who cause problems in society, but people should be directing their anger more at the white collar criminals on Wall Street and in your government. They're the folks who have done waaaaay more damage to this country than any illegal aliens have ever done.

Posted by: what | February 22, 2008 at 10:48 PM

***** Why can't we be angry at ALL involved?****

[NoWayinLA]

"I'm still wildly amused at the idea expressed around here that itinerant fruit pickers or lawnworkers from Mexico are going around buying all 'our' houses."

I'm wildly amused at the ignorance that allows someone to believe the gross generalization that all illegal immigrants are farmhands. Apparently you don't get out much.

Illegals with a fake SSN or ITIN work in whatever jobs they choose. They build houses, fix cars, own businesses, etc. In fact, the skilled labor sector (filled with good-paying jobs for kids who weren't interested in school) is so overwhelmed by illegals that non-Spanish speakers are being pushed out... including at the management level. You can't have a supervisor who can't communicate with the cheaper workforce that can't and won't speak English.

When the inner-city youth from a crappy school tells you he turned to gangs and drugs because there weren't any other options... he has a point.

[LeavinLA]

Puckehad: My salary went up 50% when I left LA. Housing costs dropped from $6K a month to $1,500.

And to those of you moaning about alien-bashing, truth hurts, doesn't it? LA without illegals (legal immigrants are great) would flourish again.

[Allthewhining]

Geez, all this whining and how everyone has done you wrong. Just be patient, the market will eventually adjust. You can be bitter and angry, which does wonders to your lifespan and quality of life or you can move on.
As for me, I'll take my middle-class income, put up with renting and the commute until I can afford a nice place after all the hoopla calms down. It'll take 2yrs, 5yrs, 10? I'll wait and pounce when ready.

[SGV]

NEWS FLASH:

The mother of the gangbanger killed in Glassell Park had 13 other children and originally hailed from the village of Tlalchapa, in Guerrero, Mexico.

You see? John Galt WAS right.

[anon]

For all you liberal-bashing immigration ranters:

I used to work in one of the richest (in the top 5) zip codes in the USA.

Let me tell you, those rich conservatives LOVED their cheap immigrant labor.

Without immigrant labor doing their gardening, cleaning their houses and repairing their properties, life in that burg would grind to a halt.

Rich conservatives love immigrant labor.

[Angela Fuentes]

NEWS FLASH:

Just because someone's mother was born elsewhere does not mean that 1. the mother never became a citizen or 2. that her children were not citizens.

Without more information it is impossible to say "John Galt WAS right." It's called reading comprehension people. Sheesh.

[AMerican]

Good news, everyone! The illegals are moving out of LA because it's getting too expensive. Now that banks are no longer giving these minimum wage working illegals $500k loans to buy a house in South Central LA, you'll see home price plummet, like the quality of life in Central Valley now that the illegals are gangbanging there.

"Along the 450 miles of the Central Valley, an explosion of gang violence in recent years has transformed life on the wide, tree-lined streets of California's agricultural heartland.

As jobs and relatively affordable housing in the fast-growing region have attracted families from the Los Angeles and San Francisco Bay areas, law enforcement officials say, some have brought gang ties with them, aggravating the valley's home-grown street crime.

"What we are seeing is a migration of gangs from larger cities . . . to more rural areas," said Jerry Hunter, who oversees state Atty. Gen. Jerry Brown's anti-gang units. "The gang activity . . . is a huge crisis for those communities.""

[buz]

Do crappy 500sqft homes in Tijuana sell for 400K? Any prospective RE buyers in these areas of LA should ask themselves that question. And any bank dumb enough to loan money for a home in poopville should go bankrupt.

[PREFAB SPROUT]

XTINE---------You missed the point of my post entirely. My comparison of NYC to LA was not in its similar housing types(co-ops with doormen vs guard gated communites) My point was the total stratification of the society-Super Rich in nice safe cocoons and poor in crime infested areas with a declining/disillusioned middle class.

[Jim]

Wonder what the next LA Riots will be like?

[sheila]

with respect, Mr. Viles, the content and/or editing of this blog is seriously in need of an upgrade. it is a disgrace to you and to the LA Times that you continuously provide a forum for hateful, ignorant and low-class white supremacists.

you are not an instrument of the government, nor is the LA Times, and there is nothing like the First Amendment preventing you from raising the level of discourse to "civilized" from what is now pure, bottom-feeding dreck. In fact, I believe you owe it to those of us who wish to read the news and chat about real estate, not participate in an online KKK meeting, to nip this kind of sewage in the bud.

I would much rather live under seige in Glassell Park than in any neighborhood with most of the drooling losers who write into your blog. Perhaps it is karma keeping them all from getting that house they feel they so richly deserve "cuz there white 'mericans" not all the evil brown-skinned people who persecute them by doing all their shit work for cheap without complaining?

Seriously, this is beneath you. Or isn't it?

[Michael Snyder]

sheila,
I for one resent your accusations. Being white, or identifying a neighborhood's race driven troubles is not racist, it's reality. That you would accuse me or any other participant in this blog as supporting or being a part of an organization such as the KKK is insulting and offensive. You need to pull your head into the sunshine and take a global view of social conditions.
To be sure most gang-bangers can't afford to live in Beverly Hills but that is no justification for the actions described in this article, nor does your xenophobia and self righteousness give you call to make the insulting remarks you have to hundreds of people you know nothing about.

[sean]

hmm.... the hatred the "have nots" have for the "haves" are now misdirected at other "have nots"..... interesting.

when the "have nots" (angry whites) can not have what they truly desire (in this case, affordable housing in LA) then they blame other "have nots" (minorities of various kinds) for taking away what they thought they should have had in the first place. But, forgetting that the reason they are "have nots" is because they just don't make enough money to become the "haves".

Folks, get off your lazy butts during the day, and start working. I know some of you are looking for houses in good communities, yet I see some of these names appear mulitple times in each blog. Surely you all have work to do other than being armchair quarterbacks. Some of us "haves" actually reached the "haves" level by studying our butt off to get to an education (a POST GRADUATE education), then working our butt off in our jobs. Then, when the kids are asleep, then we read these blogs.

The "haves" in the world did not become "haves" by trolling on the internet during work hours to complain about how unfair the world is, and blaming everyone they can possibly blame (the illegals, the greedy bankers, the corrupt government, the crooked mainstream media, etc). The "haves" actually work hard and get hefty bonuses, while the "have nots" (who may be working in the same company in similar jobs) troll around in work hours not being productive, and not getting the raises and bonuses.

So, for all the angry "have nots" out there -- get off your high horses and start working hard. Do what your parents did to "earn" the right to buy a house by actually working hard for once, not just troll around the web during working hours and expect to get paid while you complain about everything and everyone you can imagine. There ain't no free lunches in the world; start working and stop complaining.

[jason d amaliggion]

john t watts, very racist buddy, very racist

[Ann]

Having lived around the corner from Drew/Andrita in the past 2 years, and visited the Andrita Court townhomes today, I have way more insight than most of you on the actual topic here of this neighborhood. This, like a lot of mixed income neighborhoods, has good blocks and bad blocks. You can live in a 6 house stretch for decades with no troubles. The views are great if you like city lights over rolling hills. The access to things to do is unbeatable by car, though not walkable. Walkable costs 150k more. It's not for everyone. You do hear occasional gunfire. There are scummy people around. It reminds me exactly of every other urban neighborhood I've been/lived in, including those in the south, midwest and east where housing costs 1/3 of this. Those of you on your "I'm so great b/c I'm not a sucker who lives in LA" pedestal, get over it. There's no comparing suburbs to this kind of neighborhood, and some of us just cannot tolerate suburban environments. This is a city that people live in and love for all its many perks and faults.