Leaving L.A., Leaving California

Blogger's note: This item contains a correction.

Good morning. There has been lots of reader discussion on this blog about population trends in California and Los Angeles, and what those trends mean for future housing demand, and what that demand means for future housing prices.

Into that mix of speculation, prediction and extrapolation, throw this, from this morning's LATimes: In the last fiscal year, "... 89,000 more people moved out of California than moved here from elsewhere in the United States."

More: "Since 2000, about 500,000 more people have left Los Angeles County than have moved here from other parts of the U.S. ...

Now, let me clarify a bit: despite this "out-migration," the populations of California, and L.A. County, are both growing. They are growing because of immigration and new births (Yes, the birth rate is generally higher among immigrants, so recent immigration contributes to the birth rate). In California last year, 89,000 people moved out of the state, but 200,000 new state residents either immigrated here or were born here, so the population moved higher.  [Correction: In California last year, although the state was losing 89,000 residents to other states, it was gaining far more through either immigration or births, so the population increased by about 438,000 residents.]

The Times quotes a state official who says the state's weakening economy is partly to blame. "People who are leaving the state ... are probably doing so because they believe they'll do better elsewhere."

They may also be tired of the state's relatively high cost of housing, relatively long commutes, and increasingly troubled public education system. That's just my two cents. Now I'd like to hear yours: why are people moving out of L.A. and California?

While we're at it, here's two more cents: I find the exercise of predicting future housing demand, and prices, futile. There are too many unknowns: at what rate will new households form? Will immigration continue at current rates? Will California's economy tilt toward lower-wage jobs performed by new immigrants, or toward higher-paying jobs that support higher housing prices? What will happen to interest rates? To the availability and terms of mortgages? Too many variables.

Your thoughts? Comments? Insights? Email story tips to peter.viles@latimes.com.
Photo Credit: LATimes

Comments

[Will Grossi]

Thank Gov. Arnold and the Democrats in Sacramento for fleecing the taxpayers with their bogus schemes. Nevada looks good to me!

[dog-walker]

ANECDOTAL: I know some people who've left CA. The kind of people who can live pretty much where they want. The reason they'll tell you is mainly that CA is RIDICULOUS! And becoming moreso all the time. And the reports I get back are all about being incredibly happy and relieved and surprised by how difficult life doesn't necessarily have to be.

[Janice Gammill]

People can sugar coat it any way they want! We left California in October simply for the fact that it is in third world status and I don't understand the language!

[National Bubble]

People tend to believe that past trends are indicators of the future. Although California is a great place to live (that's why I live here), even a great place can become undesirable when too many people want to live there.

Most people live California because of the quality of life. The weather is great but there is more in life than nice weather. People need to be able to afford a house, and have enough money at the end of the month to enjoy life. Just like it happened to New York City 20 years ago, we are going to see the population of California not grow much in the next few years. Home prices, high taxes, overpopulated schools, and the worst commute in the country are just some of the reasons Californians are moving to other parts of the country.

As far as immigration into California compensating for people moving out, keep in mind than most immigrants (specially the type of immigrants in Southern California) make much less than US born residents so I wouldn't expect immigrant to contribute much to increase home prices.

http://www.NationalBubble.com

[Andie]

We make in the low 6 figures and we're planning on moving out once we have kids on a couple years. Housing and traffic pretty much sum up the problem. We don't want a long commute and don't want to shell out for a mini-condo to live near work. While we love our friends here, they won't pay or mortgage or drive us around. Can't wait to leave LA.

[anon1137]

Not all immigrants are taking low wage jobs. That may be true of most immigrants from Mexico and Latin America, but many from Asia, India, and Eastern Europe are coming here for graduate school or have graduate degrees and they're getting jobs in high tech, health care, and government. I don't know how siginficant this is - maybe the number of immigrants from Mexico dwarfs all the others.

The number of people leaving the state is irrelevant if the population is still growing. As far as housing demand goes, all that matters is the population vs. the number of housing units available. It doesn't matter much whether a family from Mexico or India or California lives in the house.

[MyLessThanPrimeBeef]

It's never healthy for the economy to keep trading 20, 30 and 40 year old productive Californians for 1 and 2 month old crying babies, nevermind you get more of them in return. Actually, make it 'especially' when you get more of them in return.

PS: For the PC crowd, let me state on record that I love babies and cats. By the way, one of the worst offending incorrect word in the English language is 'sunrise.' The sun hasn't risen since the Copernican days. It is physically incorrect. It is also politically incorrect in that it smacks of chauvinistic Earth-centrism, of Gaia-centrism. It discriminates against all the lifeforms elsewhere in the universe.

[Declan]

LA has no net incoming migration from the rest of the US because its quality of life rates so poorly.  As someone who grew up in Los Angeles, I consider it a place with all the disadvantages of a large city like traffic, pollution, high cost of living--without the advantage of a city like walking, neighborhood, proximity to entertainment and culture.  Plus the desert aspect of LA heightens the suburban big box strip mall  car culture ugliness of the environmenal disaster the city has become.

[yourkillingmelarry]

"They may also be tired of the state's relatively high cost of housing, relatively long commutes, and increasingly troubled public education system. That's just my two cents. Now I'd like to hear yours: why are people moving out of L.A. and California?"

California's unsustainable and unjustifiable high cost of housing is a major impediment to any type of population growth. My wife works in the medical industry, they are having major problems recruiting doctors to the area due to housing cost. Doctors! Right now we find ourselves not attracting the best and the brightest, who in their right mind would move here with these home prices?? We are losing many small and medium businesses and business innovations to lower cost of living areas. Thats why you have fact like these ""Since 2000, about 500,000 more people have left Los Angeles County than have moved here from other parts of the U.S. ...". The next two years we will experience more "Don't move here" messages from the media as housing and the economy tank. Here is a quote from Paul Krugman's blog today

"What the chart shows is that this decade we’ve had a national housing bubble that is somewhat bigger than the bubble in LA in the late 1980s — a bubble that was followed by a 20% drop in nominal home prices, and a 30% fall in real prices. In LA itself, and in a number of other metropolitan areas, the bubble has been on a scale completely unprecedented in modern experience."

http://tinyurl.com/3cdub8

Now if you are a college grad and read this are you to going move here?? Are you going to relocate your business here?? Are you going to accept a job transfer here?? Those are important questions because those are the people that build housing wealth. The best thing to happen for Los Angeles and California is fthe popping of this housing/credit bubble. Once affordability returns to the area California's positives will shine once again.

[John]

Reasons for outmigration?

Bad air / abysmal schools / high crime / ridiculous traffic / polluted beaches / absence of political leadership / outrageous real estate prices / absurd taxes and regulations killing off entrepreneurship / ubiquitous self-entitlement mentality / etc., are just a start.

How about if you wanted to create an environment completely descructive to the traditional American (and most immigrant/future American) values of hard work, education, thrift, honesty, common sense, respect for reason and logic, patience, and public spirit, you could pretty much use L.A. as a great starting point.

But heck, the weather's nice, and there's lots of cheap and delicious Mexican/Thai/Chinese/Lebanese food, so I'm not leaving just yet.

[TujungaDon]

Just putting in time until the wife can retire later this year, and then its month to month. Together DW and I make mid-low 6 figures, and are getting by OK, but now between the 40 year old house needing extensive work, along with the mortgage, the time to leave is drawing near. Other reasons for wanting to leave include taxes and the traffic. Let me add that we are also upset about the increasing density and poor quality of the new devolpments in the area. I shop and do business in Glendale, but when the Americanna center opens, I will have to make it a day trip just to go to the mall, and back since the town is close to gridlock already. Glendale, the new West L.A., and I don't mean that in a positive way.

[do I have to draw you a diagram?]

why at least once a week I think about leaving California:

--the cost of housing (obviously)
--the fact that all the good jobs are clustered in areas we can't afford to live in
--high taxes
--obscene property taxes
--the knowledge that the state is just going to waste all your tax money anyway
--high utility costs
--the price of gas
--congestion that makes even a short trip through the suburbs at least half an hour
--corrupt state politicians
--free health care for illegals while native borns just go without
--the steady march toward "Mexifornia"
--some of the worst schools in the nation (see "Mexifornia" above)
--the fact that even CSU and the UC are moving out of reach for the middle class....

[Jennifer]

I haven't left California, but I'm thinking of it -- and the reasons are basically high housing costs -- as a young person working in the nonprofit world, I will never be able to buy a house here, and I mean never. The commutes and the lack of public transit are also completely insane. I miss the low cost of living and basic sanity of a city that's designed to be a community, rather than an endless sprawl.

More seriously, the climate here is a concern. Do we really think we'll have enough water to make life here a going concern as we are currently living it? And are there any real efforts in the works to change our lifestyle so that we are living in an ecologically sustainable city? To be honest, I think the answers are no and no.

[LA-renter]

Disclosure: First year in California... Moved for work... Probably would leave Mediterranean climate of LA (to colder climate back East) next year for equal or better job.

Ignoring earthquake and extended drought potential, LA has a serious transportation problem (which I believe exacerbates the bubble in the local housing market)... The solution cannot be more lanes added to major interstate highways.

If LA is going to grow and thrive, mass transit infrastructure must be accelerated. Unfortunately, my impression is that mass transit is an alien concept here in LA LA land.

[tarbubble]

the only thing keeping us in CA is family. period. my grandparents came here in 1929 (as farm laborers) and we've been here ever since. yes, i love the climate, yes i love the mountains, and we've managed to avoid long commutes. but as for somebody with no family ties here, i do wonder why they would bother to stay.

[CometCollector]

I was born in California, as were my parents and grandparents. I love California. I will never leave California. Bye haters.

[Rob]

Its about Quality of Life If you feel comfortable with the city you live in, and it fits within your (families) requirements. To me, Los Angeles is spotty at best. 40 plus years in CA I have seen some real transformation of communities. Most of it sad.

[LB]

slightly off topic, but check out the graph at this link http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/
Los Angeles housing prices have inflated far more than the nation as a whole.

[MB]

soon enough mexico will reconqure california. the invaders already have enough bodies here, and make many many more each day.

and we americans pay for it. no unskilled laborer pays anywhere near enough taxes to cover the cost of his family in LA

Los Angeles is the best city in the third world. there is far more opportunity than in any central/south american cities, but the american middle class has been destroyed.

the result is a relatively high quality of life for central/south americans, but a disaster for Americans.

but, everyone likes to hate Americans....so...there ya go...have fun.

[Problemwithcaring]

I just moved back last year and L.A. looks likes it has reached the Great Precipice...the out-migraters seem to be those middle-of-the road earners, smart enough to realize they could do better in other parts of the country.

One gets the feeling that the people who are staying in Los Angeles are either a) like most people on this blog- financially independent and/or well-paid or b) like the people whose voices you won't hear much on this blog: those who are way too poor and have no other choice.

[Jenna]

Although there are significant problems with affordable housing, traffic, schools, etc. this is still California. The numbers of people leaving is not that significant given how many people still live here. Granted it would be better if we were getting more young professionals but lets not overstate the importance of the amount of people leaving. That said, it would be nice if the people in Sacramento would actually do something to address the issues of affordable housing, traffic, sub-standard schools, etc. I’m not holding my breath.

[Refugee]

Just because the newer population is not "white" does not mean they are all poor or destined to remain poor, and LA is doomed to become a de facto third world city. Speaking English has nothing to do with the values of liberty, opportunity, and prosperity that make up the foundation of this country. These principles are larger than on single language, and is why the United States could prosper even if it decided to change its language to Spanish or German. My own family fled to the US from communism in the 70's and we had nothing and did not speak English. Every single day I think about how lucky I am to be in this country. I don't think the color of people who remain in LA will have much impact on housing in the long run.

[methinks]

Will leave as soon as possible. Why? Cost of housing. But the 5 top reasons are (1) traffic (2) traffic (3) traffic (4) traffic and (5) traffic. I have actually lived in other places where the rush hour did not even last an hour. Was born and raised here. Now I cannot wait to leave again. I only came back to help out family. Even is the price of homes drop some, most people still cannot afford to buy one. After living in other places of the country, there is another world besides CA and life can be good.

[enlightenment]

Southerrn California has very nice weather, but that is the only real reason to be here. The cost of housing vs the salary is too far out of wack. At the end of the day, you have more spare money after paying bills if you live in other parts of the country. It is far cheaper to live in another part of the USA and fly to California as a tourist!

[m]

I know many people say they move to California for the weather. I try to spend as much time as possible outdoors, but I can't image many aren't like me the the respect that they don't get to spend much time outside in the "nice weather", which increasingly makes this excuse not really worthwhile. Why?
Jobs force you to be indoors (and when compared to other states, you have to work more just to take home the same $$ amount due to high state taxes).
Pollution and air quality forces you indoors.
Traffic sucks and can make getting to someplace where the air is nice a huge annoyance.
Walking, using public transportation and biking are unreasonable in some areas of the city and there is way more effort going into freeways than these alternatives that allow one to be outdoors. The streets are not well designed for walking as they have little shade and other features that make for a pleasant walking experience.
Homes with outdoor space to enjoy the weather in are completely unfordable for most normal people.
City parks are oddly placed and increasingly boxed in by huge buildings or are difficult to get to.
There are few areas to connect with nature as they are cleared for new buildings (and the construction also makes being outside pretty unpleasant with constant street closures, hazards, loud noises, unpleasant smells and clouds of unknown substances).
When you do get outdoors, the amount of trash and the way that people simply don't have pride in or take care of the city is depressing.

I have to say that for being as large as it is, LA is one of the loneliest places I have ever lived. The people are not nearly as friendly as most other places and there is a lot of superficial evaluations and relationships going on that aren't really very satisfying. LA has many extremes that other cities don't have --- many homeless and lower income individuals and many of the richest people in the U.S. all jammed into the same place. Yes there is a lot of entertainment, but when you're busy working or trying to struggle to get someplace in traffic or on public transportation, there's not much time for entertainment anymore.

[Dewtrell]

I am a native Los Angeleno and have traveled extensively; even living in the Bay Area for 5 years during the tech boom. There's just no place like California, or Los Angeles for that matter, nothing even remotely compares to the lifestyle I have here. I refuse to move to a place where I'll be unhappy just so once can have the "appearence" of a better life. Every person I know who has left California is trying to get back.

I am a true Californian through and through. Every state, every other country has their problems, trust me; however, I love my state, there's no place like it. For those who want to leave, most of you are transplants; please, LEAVE because you are part of the problem.

[CometCollector]

The grass is ALWAYS greener. I've lived elsewhere long enough to know that every place has its positive and negative characteristics. For me, California is still the best place to live in the U.S. Yes, traffic's terrible but increasingly I don't even use a car. LA is starting to witness the creation of a decent public transit system. As the city densifies it will begin to acquire pedestrian-friendly nodes worthy of any older city on the East Coast or Europe, albeit with better weather and food.

To me, the worst and most scary thing about California's future is that we will continue to sprawl into the remaining rural/wild hinterlands, destroying the state's remaining natural beauty (look at Orange Co. or northern SD Co.). Also, no matter how you look at it, California has a limited carrying capacity. I have no beef with immigrants coming here to live but maybe California is not the best place to accommodate the world's surplus population. We are running out of space for typical sprawl development and the freeways won't handle that much more vehicular traffic composed of one person per SUV. The snowpack is going away too. Seems like we need to return to a ca. 1980 population and those of you who leave are helping move this goal forward.

To those of you who moan about how terrible it is here, let's here from you AFTER your first winter in Idaho or your first summer in Phoenix. Blecch!

[Cal]

Jobs, housing and schools..

Jobs are "ok" right now, good paying jobs aren't..
Housing, extremely expensive anywhere near jobs.
Schools, no idea how LA fairs in that regard, I wasnt in LAUSD.

"In Los Angeles County alone, nearly 115,000 fewer residents came from other states and California counties than moved to other states and counties"

The situation is untenable, even if new young families are forming they dont have the wages to support housing prices. Births dont matter from an immediate economic perspective so we are relying on rich and/or well educated international immigrants to save the day for housing.

Getting married, buying a house, having a kid and sending it to a good school.. is extremely difficult here. I think people are sick of fighting it and just going elsewhere where their work is rewarded with some tangible benefit besides sunny days. People of retirement age are looking to cash out and move.

Now we are about to have state spending drastically cut back at the time when we need it most to cushion the blow.

All because (IMHO) housing got so out of whack and many high paying industries that were dependent on the bubble were centered here. LA/OC is ground zero. High housing prices are a double whammy to our economy.

[amir]

I'll chime in as well.

As someone who thinks of leaving Los Angeles the reasons are:

1. Cost of housing.
2. Scarce good public education.
3. Disadvantages of a big city: traffic, crime, pollution while lack of advantages: public street life, proximity of entertainment and culture, great affordable outdoor dining, no public transportation.

But it all comes down to housing. If housing is low enough, other problems can be fixed by spending more money, however, if housing sucks away too much of your income...

[Johnson]

Boy, what a bunch of whiners! SoCal, not just necessarily LA, is one of the most sought after places to live. I was born here and love it. Weather's great. Beaches, mountains, etc. all within reasonable distance. Sure, there are great schools and bad schools here, just like everywhere else. Traffic sucks in LA proper but I don't live there and I have a local commute. If you think there's no traffic in Seattle, Portland, Phoenix or any other reasonably metro place, then you have another thing coming. Yes, it's expensive and housing is ridiculous, but all in all, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. It's human nature to think the grass is greener elsewhere. If you are really that scared or disgusted or beaten down by living here, then by all means...get the heck out...geez!

[Lee]

Left LB 2 years ago. Loved living there but living in CA is HARD. Everything is hard. Traffic, getting teacher certification, even becoming a notary public. It was all much harder than it needed to be.

[Tombstone Realty]

I'm probably going to be packing up and going. Not because I want to. I actually rather like it here. I love the desert, and if I get smushed in some earthquake, I'd find that a much more fitting way to die than ending up senile in a nursing home.

I also don't care about hearing spanish everywhere. After all, it's called "Los Angeles", not "The Angels". I don't have a problem living in a bilingual society here. Or that there's someone "browner" than me sitting next to me on the bus. It's LA, an international city. I'd not be surprised if Klingons asked me directions to the Viper Room.

I'm really tired of hearing Nazis going off every day about "illegals this", "illegals that'. They are invariably the same type of people who have "illegals" mowing their lawn because they don't want to pay higher prices for some white kid to do it.

Greed is what makes LA unaffordable, not skin color.

The reason I'll be forced to leave is housing. I can't even afford rentals, never mind a house. And I'm not entirely sure that prices will fall low enough in time for me to take advantage of it, even with the fact I'm debt-free. It's pretty sad when you make $50K, and you still pay half of your take home income for a dinky one bedroom apartment.

[S.K. Duncan]

You think LA is 3rd World? Were you here 20 years ago? When it was worse than it is today.
The city is going through a transition, more urbanization and development, which has yielded some surprising results. A population of young, fresh face people who walk, ride bikes or catch the subway.

Yes, more vertical housing choices rather than horizontal. Yes, more people rubbing shoulders on the sidewalks. Yes, if you can't take it....you should leave.

Traffic is getting worse, so we need alternatives to driving the car.
The idiot West LA NIMBY's who refuse to accept that the train tracks behind their house, which were there before they bought their houses, will have to accept trains whizzing by to move people back and forth from Venice Beach to other parts of Los Angeles.

I like LA, it is turning into a real city. Unfortunately it isn't for everyone. And they should leave...

[Dewtrell]

"If you think there's no traffic in Seattle, Portland, Phoenix or any other reasonably metro place, then you have another thing coming."

Johnson,

I completely agree! After having been to each of those places for work and pleasure, the traffic was no sneezing matter. In fact, I thought traffic in the Bay Area, particularly on the 101 and 880 were worse than the 405 on a bad day; however, there was BART which is awesome. But we're moving towards that in CA; just today funding from the Feds for the Metro from downtown to the beach was approved.

The housing prices are going to fall, big time; it has already happened and will continue to do so. Just like after the riots and Northridge Quake, people left Los Angeles in droves. The minute entertainment picked up, tech and housing prices dropped significantly, they all came back. However, this time... if they leave, I hope it is for good. As a native, I can't wait until this weekend because Los Angeles will be just like it was when I was a kid; awesome, no traffic and just natives enjoying our city as we like it.

[CometCollector]

Based on the commentary, it sounds like natural selection is at work. Those who complain about how hard everything is will leave and complain about how hard it is will leave and promptly begin whinging about how there aren't enought Targets or In 'n Out Burger joints in Boise or Colorado Springs (no wonder they can't stand Californians in the rest of the West). This will ultimately leave California to those with tougher wills and to those who truly love it here. Go. Leave. Do it for all of us.

[ssssmmo]

I love LA! Its potential as an amazing megalopolis grows everyday. LA is a young city and its exciting to be living somewhere thats in the middle of a renaissance. LA is growing up and its in its teenage years.

It was built as a suburban car-culture city but that is slowly changing. I can understand people not wanting to be pioneers but for me LA has an amazing arts scene, fashion scene, lifestyle, shopping, and party scene. LA's diversity and international food options keep me here. Its proximity to local travel destinations cannot be compared to anywhere else.

I wouldnt want to live anywhere else. The people who are whining about LA probably never really embraced LA as a city.... Be part of the solution and not the problem. BE THE CHANGE YOU SEE IN THE WORLD.

[PW]

I moved from family out of California over a year ago and have not regretted the decision once.

The cost of living in California is ridiculous whether you own or rent. The schools systems are withering under the strain of NCLB and educating the children of illegal immigrants. Traffic is horrendous all of the time now. But most importantly the crime rate is so obnoxiously high you can't feel safe anywhere.

We as a country need to be honest about what is happening here and instead of being so concerned about introducing democracy to countries that did not ask for or want our assistance and put those billions of dollars into our own country,

[ExCaliGuy]

After living in California for around 14 years, I moved to Seattle 9 months ago. The reason was simple, quality of life and home affordability. I think that most Californians forget how much they sacrafice to live in Los Angeles or San Francisco. The cost of living is extremely high if you were not lucky enough to purchase a home 10 or more years ago. The traffic factors into every decision you make and the quality of interaction you have with fellow Californians is extremely low.

I looked at what I could afford in LA on a $225k+ annual salary and realized a crack house in Compton / Hawthorne or a cookie cutter place 50 miles inland wasn't going to cut it. So I moved to Seattle and purchase a great home for $870,000 in a highly desireable neighborhood 2 miles from downtown Seattle. The cost of living is a full 33% less here than California, we have no state income tax, the people here are much nicer and the quality of life is excellent. I wish I had made the move sooner.

San FRancisco is a nice place (I can't say the same about LA) but not nice enough to justify the obscene cost of living, traffic.

[Jim in San Diego]

This outmigration has been going on for at least 2-3 years and you don't need the state department of finance to tell you.

All you need to check is one-way u-haul rentals between southern California and points elsewhere. You'll see that you pay a high premium to leave socal and it's been that way since I started looking at it in 2005.

Right now, a one-way 24' truck from SD to Dallas is priced at $766. If you're headed the other way, it'll only cost you $413.

[RadioManTodd]

Don't let the door hitcha where the good lord splitcha.

[ladybug]

We moved out of state because of the high cost of housing. There were other personal reasons involved, but the bottom line was the cheaper housing. We love CA and we might go back someday At the same time, our life is so much less hectic now and we are enjoying the slower pace. But for some people the slower pace would just be boring. When my 18 yr. old niece from CA visited this summer, she declared, "this place is dead." We had to laugh, because my husband and I agreed we would have felt the same way when we were younger - so if we were younger and/or single this would probably not be the place for us, but right now it works for us.

[perks]

The fact that people immigate to Los Angeles, and then later emigrate to other parts of the U.S., should not be surprising. L.A., not unlike New York, is a comfortable destination for foreigners thanks to the number of ethnic groups that are rooted here. Some stay, and others don't. I don't think that speaks to L.A. being highly undesirable. If everyone who moved to L.A. via immigration or otherwise stayed, then Los Angeles would be even more crowded and problematic. The fact that there is an outflow of people into other parts of the country is, in and of itself, a cause for worry. Of course, the shifting of the demographic to lower wage earners would be cause for concern, if it's actually true (I haven't bothered to look for myself).

I probably will leave Los Angeles when I retire in a couple more decades, but I'm fortunate to earn enough to have a comfortable life here. I've lived in the Pacific Northwest, New England, the South, and of course Southern California. No place is perfect, every place has its problems, and if all you pay attention to is those problems then you're never going to be happy.

Sure, I could have a 4000-square foot house in Nebraska for what I'm paying to rent my 1200-square foot house in the Valley, but would that make me happy? Heck no. What makes me happy is my friends, my family, a satisfying career, and being able to have beaches, hiking, skiing, and desert solitude all within a two-hour drive of my home. You can't get the latter in too many other places, and being able to afford a McMansion on a half-acre lot isn't going to make up for that. With good family and friends, and a decent job, I could frankly be happy anywhere. Knowing that, what incentive is there to uproot my life and start over yet again somewhere else?

[OkieSmokie]

Imagine being someone living anywhere in the midwest....sure, housing prices low and there is no traffic. But there is a reason for all of this. When someone is sitting at home in Oklahoma surrounded ice and freezing temperatures, they turn on the TV to see a sporting event in Southern California. The sun is shining, people are smiling. They realize there is nothing you can't have in LA, compared to Oklahoma where the closest thing to a luxury store is the local Walmart. You have got to be kidding yourself, if for one second you believe there are not millions of people around the country every day who wake and wish that they were in sunny California. There will always be a strong inflow of people into SoCal. Once housing prices drop even further and cost of living becomes more affordable, there will be an even stronger flow of people moving to California...and housing demand (and prices) will once again rise.

[Jon]

Every time I think I'm sick of LA traffic, etc. etc. and am reminded about all the "bad" things about living here, I remind myself what a wonderful joy spending time in Alabama during August is, and I think, "you know, it isn't all that bad out here". I'll bet a good number of the folks complaining on the blog moved out here from Michigan or some other garden spot in the first place. Feel free to go "home".

[Guy]

Another sign we have surrendered to the foreign invasion. The exodus is well under way.

[haikujunky]

Yay! Move out then! I have lived in Seattle for 17 years & I am gladly moving back to LA this summer. I am excited to get back to a real city and real diversity.

[John Reece]

As one of the 59% of US California citizens who voted for Prop 187 (and whose vote didn't count) the out-migration is no doubt in part due to American citizens not wanting to live in a colony of Mexico. Incidentally, while many posters here have cited 'traffic' as a reason, that's an overpopulation effect and California overpopulation is mostly due to federal, state, and local open-borders policies.

[Uncle Billy]

Ay dios mio, I hope this is a typo:

"Getting married, buying a house, having a kid and sending *it* to a good school.. "

Unless we're talking about baby goats.

White flight. The census tracks "race" right? Any way to document white flight? (what's the opposite of degentrification?)

[inland Empire]

I was born here and have lived in two other states. If you don't like it, leave. There is no reason to stay if you are miserable. Best of luck!

[Ed O'Shea]

I work for the LAPD and my wife is constantly requesting that we leave Los Angeles and move to a place that is more affordable! Not to mention more kind and fair to thier Police Officers! But with 3 children and only being able to rent she has a point. We are not willing to live 60 miles outside of LA just to be able to afford a house. For the moment we would rather rent and live a reasonable distance from work. My wifes position is sounding very logical and we might just up and leave one of these days. Even with the amount of time I have invested with the LAPD, it's going to be a quality of life issue (owning a home) that might just be the final straw!

[Cal]

Add John Reece into the "Its the damn mexicans fault" column.

White flight is alive and well.

I wonder how these people think all the irish, english, german and other european looking people got here. (hint, it was our open-border policies)

[Charles]

We saw this coming years ago. We did something about it. Moved from one of the few good places remaining in SoCal (Thousand Oaks) to Colorado in between Denver and Colorado Springs. Jobs in both towns, 300 days of sun, housing about $150/sqft, no traffic, excellent schools, and 98% of the amenities of LA. More engineering jobs per capita here than in Socal. SoCal is great for single, upwardly mobile people who don't need to worry about where they live or quality of schools. They can rent near where they work and enjoy the SoCal life. As soon as the wedding bells ring and the stork arrives SoCal becomes an extremely challenging place to live when looking for safe, affordable homes with good schools within a decent commute.

[T-bone]

I grew up in NYC, moved to SF in 95 and then to LA in 98. Recently left for Canada. Why? For me it was a new job. The LA job scene for me was looking a little dried up and all my offers came from Vancouver, or "Wet Hollywood" as I like to call it. I personally have a love/hate thing with LA. Love the weather, love the mountains, the beach, sailing, the food...Hate the crap LAUSD, the crap transit, the traffic(took me 3.5 hours once to get from Van Nuys to Hermosa!). One thing I especially disliked was a common mentality I'd run into which surprised me given the size of LA as a city, and that is the racism. It exists everywhere, but in LA it has a particular venom. Also along with that is the wierd anti-city mentality I found so common, which is what I think makes Angelenos drive all the way from Palmdale to jobs on the westside. It's like a case of serious denial. LA is a city. It needs to start behaving like one. That means serious investment in public transit, density planning, anti-sprawl measures, greenbelts, environmental protection, and a more metropolitan attitude for the people. Seriously the generalizations I hear on this blog about Mexicans is really troubling and way off base. Personally I miss walking up the apartment steps after a long day and being offered a beer by my great Mexican neighbors. The melting pot means that everyone melts a little, not just the newcomer.

[Adam]

What a bunch of haters! The grass is always greener on the other side, I guess.

I was born and raised in the SFV, I make six figures and could live anywhere in the country (I work remotely, my job is on the East Coast). My family loves it here and we would never leave.

Through my job I have been fortunate enough to spend extended periods of time working all throughout the country. Pacific Northwest, Midwest, South, East Coast, you name it, I have spent plenty of time there. All I can say is if you don't like it here, go ahead and go. We'll see how you like spending 3-4 months of the year with barely a glimpse of the sun, spending all your time inside because of the frigid temperatures. Spending $400/month+ on heating bills in the winter as my friends/co-workers do. By the way, my co-workers in these places always envied the fact that I would fly home on weekends to nice weather while they continued to live in those dark, depressing conditions.

I've spent plenty of time in Washington D.C., Atlanta, New York, Denver, Milwaukee, etc. and guess what. You can find bad traffic in all of these places. Northern VA traffic rivals anything you will find around here. By the way, if you think you won't find non-whites in these other places, you have another thing coming. Plenty of dark-skinned people in all these other places too.

Yes, the price of housing may be cheaper elsewhere (though it won't be in some of these places I've mentioned because they had their own bubbles) but you will spend more on heating bills in the Winter and cooling bills in the Summer.

Unless you plan on moving some place rural, you aren't going to escape the perceived evils you think afflict L.A.

[silly goat]

Anecdotal: my sister and her husband moved here to Los Angeles in 2004 to take up jobs at UCLA. They left in the summer because they can't afford to buy a house near where they work. One has a Ph.D. and the other has two Masters. Both are high-income earners and make over 200k combined.

A former boss, who also made 6 figures, sold his house in 2005 and moved to North Dakota, where he bought a much larger and cheaper house in cash and now freelances part-time from home. He cashed out enough money that he doesn't have to work full time for at least a decade, given the low cost of living in ND and no mortgage. And he can stay home all the time with his wife and kids.

Having said that, people have been moving out of CA for a while now. When I moved here in 1988 and traded in my Arizona drivers license for a California license at the DMV, the lady told me "usually people move the other way."

[LM]

Cry me a stinking river, people. If you would, please leave tomorrow, especially all you racists. That will help the rest of us. You think the grass is greener on the other side? Happy grazing.

[TX]

After living in LA all my life, leaving LA was the best thing I ever did...moved to Texas and bought a 2 story house, big back yard, pool, 2 car garage for only 198K...yes, that's a 1 not a 7.

With all the money you save, you can fly out to LA once a month to get your fill of Tommy's Burgers, King Taco and In-n-Out.

oh, by the way, we have no state income tax.

[zeigs]

Dear Refugee,

I agree that color of skin has nothing to do with anything. However, cultural ideology has everything to do with everything. Cultures are different, and those differences have meaning- real impact on the evolution of shared ideas that bind together a body of people.

America depends on a basic set of shared cultural ideas. This commonality creates a home-plate of connectedness among diverse cultures. This connectedness then allows us to comfortably integrate the best that each culture has to offer. This has mad America great.

The thing that everyone misses and/or refuses to talk about is: 1) it is extremely destructive to the foundation of this country if mass immigration occurs by any group that does not carry the sincere intention of standing united with those that came before them; and 2) America is about mining the 'best' of what the world has to offer… if it works we want it … if it doesn't work, WE DON’T WANT IT!

We don't want to integrate cultural ideas that have already proved destructive in the land from whence they came. In other words, America is not entirely open to all diversity, and skin color has nothing to do with it. It's about 'ideas'. It’s about the quality of cultural ideas.

Political Correctness has made it almost impossible to discuss this.

Now why am I leaving California .. (finally). I was born here … lived here all my live.

I love many aspects of the diversity of cultures here ... sincerely. At the same time, there are many elements that I think are very destructive. Regardless of the particular ethnicity, LA in may locations, has been over-run by what I call ghetto-sociology.

Ghetto-sociology shows up in cultures across the planet and reflects the basic mentality of a pissed-off 20 year old male. It signifies the loss of control of the elders in directing that cultures ideology. Symptoms include gangs, graffiti, fatalism, isolationism, and massive helpings of poor-me psychology.

Ghetto-sociology thrives in places where people have lost their sense of power and self-efficacy. Note: this doesn't have to be via overt force ... socialism and socialistic policy do very well in making people feel helpless and dependent.

Anyways, LA is wrought with ghetto-sociology and massive quantities of it are being imported everyday from places where it is rampant. And to live in it … you have to pay a premium and spend most of your life in your car. Moreover, we can’t do anything about it because people think racial equality means cultural equality … it does not!

Cultures are not equal. Some work better than others … some last for a very long time … some are short lived … none are perfect. The goal of America was to find out what works best and then use it. NOT TO BLINDLY INTEGRATE SELF-DESTRUCTIVE CULTRUAL PRACTICES AND IDEOLOGY FROM AROUND THE WORLD.

Political correctness has made it impossible to objectively problem solve … and now, we blindly integrate ‘everything’ good and bad under the misguided banner of racial equality. Again this is not about race, it’s about culture … and culture is not God given. Culture reflects a set of man made ideas that are never perfect!

Ghetto-sociology wrecked havoc on me growing up (especially gangs). I'm having a kid now, and there is no way I'd expose my child to what I had to deal with. I’m going to find a culture where the pissed-off 20 year old male psychology is NOT the dominant force.

This about choosing which idea of life (i.e., culture) suits me best. I'm going to try find one that is free of ghetto-sociology.

Zeigs

[brettdl]

I moved from Southern California to Chicago lat year with a lot of regrets. We have had a wonderful experience in Chicago, but it is by no means perfect:

Mass transit: It's in a continual breakdown crisis.

Buses: They're so old my grandma rode some of these dinosaurs. And they belch black diesel into our lungs. No "clean, natural gas" buses here.

Roads: hahahahahhahaha. You think they're bad in L.A? Try GETTING to a freeway in Chicago. And don't forget to order a new suspension every 2 years.

People: Like L.A., there are some great people and some awful people. Just depends on the neighborhood.

Smoking: Try walking down LaSalle holding your breath the whole time to avoid having your lungs filled with smoke. Yucky.

Air quality: Better than L.A., but not fantastic, either.

Water: L.A. loses on that one.

Costs: $2 Buck Chuck is called $3 Buck Chuck here. In fact, most prices are higher here (unless you live in the suburbs.)

Quality of life: Chicago has farmer's markets for a few months a year. They're okay, but L.A.'s are better by a long shot.

Lifestyle: It just depends what you like. Lake Michigan isn't the ocean, but it's wonderful to see at sunrise. If you can afford to live with the view.

Parks: Chicago wins easy on that one. Unless you can afford to live on the strand or in Sierra Madre.

Jobs: I'd have to say Chicago has a broader set of options but lower pay unless you are in the financial industry.

Housing costs: The good neighborhoods in Chicago are almost as expensive as Los Angeles. But there are more neighborhoods gentrifying in Chicago. Chicago suburbs are the better deal than those in L.A.

Schools: Chicago public schools are not exactly stellar, though there are a handful of awesome ones if you can get your kid in.

I'm not saying one city is better than the other. Just different.

[Tio Guillermo]

Love: Chile Relleno Burritos, "Latino" music, great people, soccer
Hate: Illegal aliens of all sorts, and people who promote "reconquista" either quietly or by screaming it out; people who hold up signs that say "we are not illegal because we're mexican." Only morons think that. You're using it to confuse the issue and promote a garbage agenda. From what I can tell, MOST people here do not hate Mexicans, they hate illegal aliens from anywhere. By the way, please stop calling yourself Mexicans. That's a nationality, right? If you immigrated to the United States legally, you are American.

Some things I didn't know: The original reconquista was by christians in the middle ages when they were pushing out the muslims. Even folks that are making serious attempts at assimilation, while keeping their identities intact secretly or not so secretly, loooooove the word reconquista.

[Cal]

"Ay dios mio, I hope this is a typo:

"Getting married, buying a house, having a kid and sending *it* to a good school.. "

Unless we're talking about baby goats."

I dont see children as people but as problems to be managed ;-)

[Jennifer]

OK, my second posting -- I'm really shocked and disgusted by the anti-immigrant, anti-Mexican tone of a lot of this. The one thing I honestly LOVE about LA is its ethnic and racial diversity. I love hearing lots of languages when I walk down the street. I love meeting people who have come from elsewhere. And I'll even go so far as to say that I love meeting illegal immigrants, because I'm meeting people who are courageous and have made huge sacrifices for a better life for themselves and their families. Let me tell you, reading the anti-Mexican stuff here is EMBARRASSING. It's people like you who make me fear for the future of our nation. Please do take that personally. I mean it.

For the record, I'm white, native born, from upstate New York (and yes, I do miss the winters, it seems to be genetic). I grew up knowing only white people in a highly segregated rural area. I love the diversity of a real city, a world city. It's not that which makes think about leaving! Again: traffic, ecological unsustainability, housing prices, sprawl. Not immigrants. Not Mexicans. Sheesh.

[Problemwithcaring]

I was born here and have lived in two other states. If you don't like it, leave.

Posted by: inland Empire

To the people who are posting "the GOOD RIDDANCE WHINERS!!" celebratory post: Wow - you love LA that much, huh? I am so confused. Have you considered the possibility that someone may feel, I don't know, ambiguous about the cost/benefits of living in one of the most expensive cities on the face of the planet? What in that sentiment is so offensive to housewives in the Inland Empire?

My father grew up in Los Angeles, moved to Mississippi in high school and spent the rest of his life talking about how great it was and moving back. Yet, even in Mississippi, I saw he appreciated access to fresh food grown and raised nearby, tasting water directly from a faucet, buying a bottle (not a can) of pop without breaking a dollar (no CRV), walking for miles in fresh air and see nothing but trees. Is it so wrong to believe Cali should have and be all of those things again?

Why is it NOT ok that people - whether they be "non-native" or "illegal" or "transplant" - bring up to the so-called Real Los Angelinos ways in which our city needs to improve? Why does that threaten you so much?

I was born at Brotman Memorial, I love L.A. but - I can still see the ways in which it is turning to sh!t for middle-income earners. I pay a lot of taxes, drive an insured car and run a charity. I also read. But by your logic I should probably leave L.A. too.

The fact that you DONT see irrationally in the argument "everyone who lives here, must love it" is so confusing to me.

[Jonathan]

Los Angeles is the city where palm trees and trash collide. Racism doesn't do anything but proves one's miseducation. The weather is nice, but the traffic sucks. I spend half my day on the congested, smoggy streets of LA with my windows up even during the hot summer days, thanks to the 18 wheelers and their exhaust pipes that blow black smoke out their asses. Love the greens (you know) out here, but hate the guns. I dropped my dreams of buying a home in the future, how am I to afford a 3 million dollar home when the most I'll be getting paid is $8,000 a month with a masters? I Don't speak Spanish, nor do i feel the need to learn it ("uno mas burrito con salso por favor" is all i know) Taxes take all my money away, but hopefully it's for a good cause, oh wait I forgot Arnold is our Govenor.

[Wray]

I work for a large public company that does business across the US and have lived in many cities and was in LA from 2004 – 2006 and though it was the greatest place ever. Problem was even though I made over 100K I could not afford any kind of house in a decent area without a crushing commute.

My company was desperate to bring mid level professionals to the LA office but in a company with over 20,000 employees across the US, no one wanted to come to LA regardless of big raises and other incentives. Three reasons: houses, schools and taxes.

When you come from almost anywhere else in the US to LA – the housing situation is massive downside and the sales, property and income tax are punishing. Throw in the perception that the public schools anywhere a “regular” professional would have a house are horrid and you begin to understand the reason why LA is tough draw for most of the rest of the US professional population age 30-50.

Babies and most immigrants (I can already hear the racism cries) do not buy houses. Generally, the people that buy houses are working professionals 30-50 and that is what is streaming out of SoCal by the moving van load.

The business regulation is awful. There are no “new” jobs being created in LA that I can see to employ large numbers of potential house buyers. In fact – most companies that I am familiar with (including mine) are trying to reduce or eliminate professional and overhead staff in CA. Mine did – that is why I am gone and I know many people with the same story.

LA will once again be a magnet to professionals when the median house price gets to about 350K. Right now, when presented with an opportunity to move to LA the rest of the country looks at the housing prices, taxes and schools and just laughs.

[tenderloin]

haikujunky You are so full of it. Seattle is not a diverse city? Don't make me laugh. Seattle has robust Asian and black populations. Second highest gay population by percent. The Hispanic population is growing as well. The reason you are objecting to Seattle as not diverse is that there is still a sizeable "white" population. To many of you PC racists, that precludes any label of diversity.

[Tired of the politically correct]

I retired at the age of 52 in 2003 (living in San Diego. We have lived in different parts of the USA but was in San Diego for 20 years. We knew that the housing market could not sustain the massive run-up in prices for too many more years so in the summer of 2005, we sold our home and moved to Asheville, North Carolina. It's not San Diego but it's nice in a different kind of way. Taxes are a lot cheaper and you get a whole lot more house for the dollar. We love SoCal but not enough to stay there with all of immigration problems, high taxes and crowded conditions. We have thought about returning to SoCal if prices dropped far enough but in the last few weeks, both of us have decided that we will probably just remain here for the rest of our lives.

[John]

I love how people write off the argument of illegals being a problem by saying they are racist. I guarantee that if the immigrants were horrific beasts spitting fire out of their asses people would welcome them with open arms IF they pulled their own weight....

At this present time, they are a HUGE drain on the school system as well as welfare. Not to much there is overcrowding, severe violence, and the problem is not getting better. It is getting worse. Kids are having children at a younger age and more often.

Not to mention only 1 of 5 kids in LAUSD graduate highschool. THAT is a problem..

[Tweet]

Jennifer Huge sacrifices? For most illegal's and their families this is so much better than where they came from, sacrifice is not a term that fits. Higher paying jobs. Free education for your children. If anchor babies, free healthcare, food stamps, WIC, SSI cash payments, on and on. Sacrifice? Ha ha ha ha That's a good one

[sunsetbeachguy]

I am kind of with the haters on this one.

Just like Leo Nordine is a member of the Malibu Surfing Club...not!

If you hate it please leave, you are part of the problem.

Life is too short, just go leave and let people who regard LA as home address the challenges.

[Thomas Soteros-Mcnamara]

My perspective on this is a little bit different. I was raised in the San Gabriel Valley and ended up getting both my Masters and Bachelors in Southern California. When I began to look for work for my particular degree Los Angeles was at a bit of disadvantage to where I ended up (Phoenix) because I work in government.

I would pose that most of the earlier comments are accurate about the manifestations of the problems (what happens when people start leaving) and not the real cause. There are two major causes and they are not mentioned above.

One cause is the fact that schools in California are special districts and not governed by local authorities directly. While this has made the system very stable on the one hand, it also encouraged whites flight away from Central Los Angeles to places like Lakewood which really were nothing but tract homes that wanted to say they were a real city so that they could avoid paying higher taxes and keep minorities out through other means. With the school district incorporated separately, this was duplicated innumerable times and is resposnible for the post war sprawl.

The other reason, and this will likely turn even more heads, is that infrastructure investments are falling behind. I could tell you that Prop 13 is the real reason for this but that's also not true. It's that all major industries that hire union blue collar workers and educated white collar ones rely on some sort of positive investment by the community at large to survive. For a long time it was our education system, and before that it was largely related to water and agriculture. Now it is almost totally dependent on our "freeways" because of their relationship to the Port in Los Angeles.

LIving here I realize that 4 or 5 million is probably a much reasonable number for a conurbation than the 10 million who try to squeeze into LA County alone. I view the net migration out as a positive thing, and that both sides actually win.

[ajnbruin]

Charles: ...Moved from one of the few good places remaining in SoCal (Thousand Oaks) to Colorado in between Denver and Colorado Springs....

We did the same. We moved from the Conejo Valley to Northern CO between Ft Collins and Denver. We found Four Seasons, Blue Skies, Good public schools, affordable homes and Mountains. We moved because I wanted a better job and a bigger house for our Family. We found it here and we are happier for it.

The people here are friendly, there is open space aplenty, and there are as many things to do with the Family here as in TO, except we have less traffic here. That is not to say CO doesn't have it's problems too. But then, in my mind CA has more problems and they're bigger.

I am a native Californian and I am very sad to see what my home state has turned into. I grew up in the SF Bay Area and went to school at UCLA. Both sides of the state has grown into one huge sprawling concrete field. The rolling hills behind my small town that I grew up in, in Northern CA are gone now. The same thing has happened to Thousand Oaks and that city is turning into Woodland Hills or worse, Van Nuys. Smog is everywhere, even in the Central Valley. The beaches South of Malibu are polluted most days and now we know the sand is polluted just as much or sometimes more than the water.

Sure, there will always be pockets of nice places to live, in CA, but they are few and far between. We will always miss Disneyland and I miss the Ocean, but they can't compare to walking my kids to school, on my way to walking to work and clear blue skies to breathe in. My family's health and well being are more important to me than living in a small house by a busy roadway, smelling auto fumes every day, and sitting in a car one hour a day.

Good Luck to all and we'll always visit. But we won't be living in CA anytime soon.

[Dewtrell]

"Have you considered the possibility that someone may feel, I don't know, ambiguous about the cost/benefits of living in one of the most expensive cities on the face of the planet?"

One can feel ambigious all they want, so take action and leave! Since I am a native, I take it personally when one badmouths my home state and city. I'm sure a Texan who loves Texas and Dallas would feel just as slighted if I went on a blog and posted how much I hate the place. If you don't like it, if you can't hack it, leave because nobody is forcing you to be here.

[Liz]

The quality of life in LA is hideous and California all the way up to the Central Coast has become LAified. I am a third generation Californian and my husband is a native as well. We sold up and moved to New Zealand two years ago.

The weather in California is not good - the smog is unbearable. There are only a few days per year after the rain has cleared the air and the sun shines where it is truly nice.

We almost never saw our friends and family even though they lived relatively close because of traffic. We see them more now on our semi-annual visits.

In New Zealand, we live comfortably on one salary. My husband works full time but says its feels like part time because the commute is so easy, the hours are reasonable and his co workers are friendly. We have loads of time for fun activities like playing tennis or just relaxing and it's easy to socialize. I am in the process of developing my own business which is easy to do here.

I love California real estate because it has been good to me and my family. However, I don't miss living in that cesspool at all - even when the southerly winds are blowing off the Antartic and into my new home!

[Marie]

"We have thought about returning to SoCal if prices dropped far enough but in the last few weeks, both of us have decided that we will probably just remain here for the rest of our lives."

Oh... please do us all a favor and stay! Not only should we control illegal immigration, we shouls also control transplants from other states and those that leave. Once you leave, you can't comeback! LOL

And I hope those houses are great... I'd rather live in a shoebox and be happy than have a house and be miserable. Be careful of what you wish for.

[sandiegan]

It's the cost of housing.
Period.

If houses were under $400K for a 3/2 SFH in an okay neighborhood, no one would be leaving.

The rest of the country has bad schools, traffic, and crime, too.

It's the house prices, stupid.

[Nicole]

"Why is it NOT ok that people - whether they be "non-native" or "illegal" or "transplant" - bring up to the so-called Real Los Angelinos ways in which our city needs to improve? Why does that threaten you so much?"

There is a constructive way at which one can go about the discussion. Do not be surprised if others are hostile if one does not offer any solutions, other than complaining.

[Mark]

I'm with "Problemwithcaring". A lot of the tone reminds me of some people in New York who think that it's better than EVERYWHERE else.

Here's are the good things about L.A.:

- Nightlife
- Weather
- Diversity
- Restaurants (big-name as well as cheap dives)
- Good-looking people
- Shopping (you can buy ANYTHING here)

Here are the areas where L.A. sucks compared to most cities:

- Cost of living
- Transporation structure
- Environment (dirty air, land, and water)
- Noise problems
- Crime
- Few pedestrian-friendly areas
- Public parks
- Cleanliness of streets and neighborhoods
- Downtown
- Architecture (most of it is hideous)
- Historical sites (not much to offer)
- Unfriendly people
- Language/communication problems
- Intelligent people (education has never been a priority here)
- Economy (good-paying jobs are not coming to L.A. in high numbers)

So, as others have noted, if you're young or superficial, or just want an exciting place to visit for a few days, L.A. can be great. Most people, however, need something deeper than that.

If the climate is the main reason you like Southern California, consider San Diego. It's much nicer than L.A.

[Inland Empire]

Problemwithcaring said:
To the people who are posting "the GOOD RIDDANCE WHINERS!!" celebratory post: Wow - you love LA that much, huh? I am so confused. Have you considered the possibility that someone may feel, I don't know, ambiguous about the cost/benefits of living in one of the most expensive cities on the face of the planet? What in that sentiment is so offensive to housewives in the Inland Empire?

You missed the point. Most here said that if you do not like LA/CA, follow your bliss and go where you like. There is no reason to be miserable here if you think you can be happy elsewhere. I have no idea what this "housewives in the Inland Empire" is about. I don't know anyone personally who fits that description.

[Tara]

Moved to Washington state a year ago after 20 years as a Californian. Best thing we ever did for our children. Our quality of life has increased dramatically; the schools are superior; our commute is 5 minutes; it is a physically beautiful place to live.

There is more to life than the weather. I feel like we stepped into an episode of Mayberry RFD. We feel renewed and inspired with what is possible here. It's wonderful.

Don't worry about missing Californians if you move here. Every other person we meet is from CA.

[Matt]

Good, i hope the people who are complaining about it leave already. I left LA for the pacific northwest and I cant wait to go back. Trust me, you have to leave in order to realize how good you had it. I think a lot of people complaining didnt quite achieve all of their career goals and here is an outlet for frustration.

[Lisa Marie Shaul]

I am a 5th generation native Californian - born in Long Beach, grew up in Palos Verdes, and currently live in San Diego. I do not know a SINGLE person who I grew up with who would say that LA is anything close to what is used to be. The LA of 30-40 years ago was largely a middle class, relatively unified city. It has turned into a 3rd world slum - packed with poor, uneducated people (largely illegal) and all of their pathologies on one side and a smaller group of ultra-wealthy bleeding hearts on the other. Soon there will be no one at all left in the middle.

The real tragegy in all of this is that it can't improve for several generations. As more and more poor immigrants stream into the state, our resources will naturally go to help them (think bilingual education, medical, section 8, etc.). This will obviously leave less resources for infrastructure and improvments. Additionally, poor immigrants don't have the bond with this state (or even American culture) to contribute to the future of the state - who would likely vote to raise taxes for added municipal parks or musuem restorations when they are trying to support 3 kids on $20,000/year?

I see no way out of this downturn for the state. The sheer population imbalance is staggering. When you have 90% of the children in LA city schools qualifiying for free food - and NO ONE is screaming about this - we really have a problem. Who is taking care of these families? Who will take care of these children? If we are so intent upon allowing every poor person on the planet to immigrate to this country, we need to start dispersing them around the country more evenly.

LA is gone.

[mbob]

'twas always thus.

Ciudad Los Angeles has always been a ruthlessly tough place to live -- fiercely competitive, murderously dangerous, rife with unequalled opportunity, pleasant at times, occasionally uncrowded, usually overcrowded, chronically short of water, overbuilt, etc.

Even a few visits to the library with special attention to the "California history" section should be pretty entertaining, what with the WGA strike on.

Notice that MTV's Tila didn't adopt the moniker of "Aquavit" or "Gin" or "Rum."

Or to quote Randy Newman, "....you got to roll with the punches..."

Buena suerta, todos personas.

[RN in PDX]

To summarize the comments about Portland (& Seattle, but feel free to move there anyway);

- Not diverse.
- Just as congested as LA.
- You won't see the sun for 3-4 months (extremely important!!)
- Walmart is upscale shopping.
- Income taxes are outrageous (Oregon).
- The city is filled with whiners who couldn't make it in S.Cal/LA.

Alll of this is absoultely true. You are much better of toughing it out in LA. + did I mention the rain?

[Jimmy]

I have lived in LA many times. About five years ago, I moved to Boston, but I kept my Newport Beach home. Bought that thing 15 years ago for 400K with no money down. And, I will be back shortly. However, I would never move to LA now, since beach homes are in the millions. It is just not worth it. One can get a small home in the other Newport ( Rhode Island ) in the 700K range. Life is almost just as good, and you can get a great location for 700K instead of 4M.

[Assimilated Immigrant]

People are complaining about the following in California:

1. Bad Schools - There are bad schools everywhere. Ninety-nine percent of a good education is based on a good student. If your son/daughter are lazy and idiots then not even a good school system can make them geniuses. Ever heard of Belmont High. I have classmates who graduated there in the late 80's who are now engineers, doctors, and lawyers. Berkeley, Harvard, Caltech you name it.

2. Traffic - only small towns have no traffic. If that's for you then don't knock Cali for it. It comes with the territory. You think Tokyo, London, Paris have no traffic. California is(was) the sixth largest economy in the world.

3. High Cost Of Living - one solution, get a better job. You can't get a better job because you did not prepare when you were younger. Low cost of living elsewhere means lower salary. Can you say WalMart in Arkansas?

4. Immigrants - people who complains about these are the same ones who moved to Santa Clarita/Inland Empire because non-white, Americans are moving into their community. Read between the lines you xenophobe. Look it up since you did not go to college.

5. High Crime - well there's high crime everywhere but majority of cities in California are safe and most are law abiding citizens. It seems like there are more crimes now because of glut of news outlet where you can find out what happened in the every corner of the state. Before you get one local paper and maybe a couple of news outlet, now news if 24 hours and covers the world. It is all perception and numbers do not support it.

Hey, I don't want to go on. This is a free country (state). If you want to leave no one is stopping you. Whiners will always find something to whine about

[The one and only]

You are all a bunch of cry babies...California is the best place to live hands down. And I have lived all over the country. I'm glad you weak minded people are leaving! Bout time we got rid of you sisies!

[Steve]

I was fourth generation LA and used to love it. Left for CO 15 years ago and never looked back. To be honest the list is too long on why I left, I just lost all hope after witnessing the decline around me over 40 years. For those that still love it stay, if you are thinking about leaving do it, it is the best thing we ever did.

[All Relatives]

So CAL is appealing to many, especially those finally 'waking up to smell the coffee' and leaving the Rust Bucket where it's hot n dripping humid in summer, and 'small-sphere-in-a-sack, freezing' COLD in winter. Look at the fab multicultural restaurants, the beaches, the mountains and the AWE-inspiring palm trees...dang few places offer ALL that, which you find in So Cal....but the unbridled illegal amnesties, which lead to overwhelmed emergency rooms, schools, freeways, more taxes for less services, and looney pols...God, WILL it ever STOP?? Greedy man is incapable of enjoying Eden - he's GOT to destroy it...while the electorate sits at home whining or puting the same THIEVES and liars back in Office.

[Bob the 626 resident]

The price of housing and gas prices get a lot of attention on these boards. But what doesn't get as much attention is people's spending and car habits and how it relates to their housing opportunities. Until 2003, a solid house or townhouse in an above average suburb could be had for 250k or less. It's not the Westside but a two bedroom two bath townhouse could have been had for under 250k in Arcadia proper. But too many people cling to the idea of the picket fence and huge yard or a place on the Westside or beaches. I clung to the picket fence notion for about six fruitless month until I realized with the help of my real estate agent that you're not marrying your house, you are simply owning and occupying and can move onto bigger and better house later without having to go through bitter divorce proceedings.

At the time i made less than 60k as a single wage earner but could still easily afford a house because I chose to drive a below average LA car, didn't use credit cards, and lived in a converted garage for two years in order to save and pay down any outstanding debt. I know a lot of people who pay upwards of $2000 for an apartment, eat out constantly, have a $500 monthly car payment, frequent bars and clubs, but lament how houses are too expensive for them. Two years before deciding to buy a house I had student loans and credit card debt but I finally decided to prioritize my future instead of my present social life. So when I walked into the bank in early 2002 to secure a mortgage I had zero debt and a solid credit score. The mortgage consultant was amazed that a 27 year old single person could had zero debt.

I won't bore you with the details of the search, negotiating, and arduous escrow, and remodeling but I told a lot of friends and coworkers that this was the time (02-03) to buy a house. Most of them just sat on the sidelines and watched themselves get priced right out of the market in a year or two.
Right now the market is coming back down to earth so my advice to the people who say they can't afford a house is to ask yourself what you are going to do so you can afford a house in the future and do it.

FYI: Buy a house closer to work or change your jobs. You will be happier, the environment will be better off, and you will have more time for family, friends, and yourself.

[Leavin' LA]

After 15 years, we left a few months ago. We LOVE LA, but left for north Florida for a while. It was simple economic and lifestyle decision. Our $6,000 a month LA housing cost is only $1500 here -- and we're just 8 blocks from the beach. With access at the end of every street. The public schools here are exceptional. We've see all of two graffiti tags in our town. Sure, it's a slower pace -- but that's okay for now. My blood pressure is down more than 30 points, and we've already connected with a families of a similar metaphysical/ spiritual-but-not-religious bent. People are universally friendly and helpful. Now if Trader Joe's would just get here...

[Molly]

We left Los Angeles 17 years ago. DH was a native. I was a midwesterner who was a Californian for 15 years. That was enough. We've never looked back

We both saw the writing on the wall. Our lifestyle was very much compromised staying in CA. We knew we'd have to commute for hours - and buy a crappy home that would be way overpriced to begin with. And if one of us lost our jobs? It's a far ways down to the concrete.

Out of state we own a home and almost have the mortgage paid off. I commute 3 miles to work. DH works from home. Our home has doubled in appreciation - but it's still in the affordable region ($350K) for even the poorest Californian.

Sure, there's snow....but there's fresh air and wide open spaces.

We actually have our retirement planned - and will live pretty comfortably in it - if we stay here - or find another place no one wants to live.

[anon]

Liz,

You're comparing New Zealand with Los Angeles???

NZ is a protected island enclave with 4.2 million people in the entire country.

Los Angeles is the wide-open world center with 11 million people.

Compare NZ to Marin maybe...not Los Angeles.

[aldo818]

Maybe we should stick to the subject...

Best reason to leave LA would have to the extensive commuting times.
I guess that just means that houses are too expensive to buy near work but, it also means that we are too sprawled out and left without proper mass transit.

The good news is that there is a lot being pushed for new public transit projects.

I think that we are changing to a real city after all. I don't really LA is a city as it is a cluster of cities. "LA" really represents Santa Monica/Beverly Hills/Pasadena/San Fernando Valley/Disneyland. I know, Disney is in the OC. But a vast majority consider it a top destination when visiting LA.

just my two cents...

[Aaron]

I'm disappointed to see how many people dislike it here for such specious reasons like the constant refrain of "illegals." Sure, there's a lot of problems here. But after living in Phoenix, Ohio, NYC, and Boston, I've come to learn that every place has problems. Phoenix has the stifling heat and pollution (worse than here, by the way). Ohio... well, where do you start? NYC has a broken-down transit system and horrible slushy snow, along with higher housing prices than LA. And Boston? Well, you'd better like lots of snow and have a high tolerance for the 250,000 college students inside Rt. 128 (as of 2004, it's surely gone up). Some people do, but I can only be puked on while taking an antiquated streetcar so many times before I give up.

LA has mild weather year-round, an amazing cityscape (Who can walk down Sunset Blvd and not be awed at looking at the City below the ridge? Or see the snowcaps from the Green Line platforms in South Los Angeles? Or the groves of palm trees in Venice and Santa Monica?), amazing diversity (and by "diversity" I don't just mean Latinos - I live in Koreatown and love the confluence of pan-Asian culture). By the way? I don't drive. I take the transit that everyone says is non-existent, and I moved here about the same time as friends who do drive - they're about to leave, but I still love it here. I think that people who delude themselves into think that there's no transit and then suffer in traffic day after day probably do come to hate it - I often tell people "If I had to drive here, I'd probably hate it too." But we all moved to LA knowing that LA is synonymous with traffic. I commute from Koreatown to the South Bay for work, and without a car it's amazing how peaceful my commute is. I can read, listen to music, and often take a nap on the Blue Line in the afternoon.

To the people complaining so much? I wish you luck elsewhere. But LA is still an amazing city of its own right.

[Cairy]

I am originally from NYC and I lived in California from the time I was 23 until I was 39 (i.e., most of my adult life). I moved out of California, with my wife and daughters, about 4 years ago because my commute was grinding. I still love the state but the quality of life that I experience in Charlotte, N.C. is much, much better than the quality of life I had in California.

[ron brathwaite]

If the majority of people in Los Angeles continue to write off South LA as unliveable they are missing out on a tremendous opportunity. I am a Physician and live in Southwest LA, aka Crenshaw district. I can drive to the Beverly Center, Culver City, Leimert Park, Marina del Ray, Kenneth Hahn Park and the airport all without getting on the freeway. I make 6 fingers and bought a house in a neighborhood where yes, I hear the occasional LAPD helicopter but also my neighbor takes out my trash bin when I'm overnight in the hospital so my wife doesn't have to. At the local stores the clerks call me "baby", "hon". We have a wonderful backyard with a lemon and avocado tree that my 19 month old can go outside and play under. Is it perfect? no, but because of my choice of housing my wife doesn't have to work and we live in Los Angeles.

[CometCollector]

If you're ultimate goal in life is to have a big cheap house (and that's it), LA's probably not the place to live anymore, although I think they're probably having some good fire sales in Perris or Beaumont now. Also, wouldn't you rather live a place that's already ruined than move to a beautiful place and watch it get ruined by all of your fellow California refugees? Just a thought.

[Thomas Soteros-McNamara]

I am still amazing reading these comments that people point to the cost of housing as to why they leave L.A.

The median price is not a price that any person pays, and therefore is a lousy argument to explain people's decisions. There is lots of cheap, affordable housing in Los Angeles. But the fact that individuals refuse to live in South Los Angeles, for example, is not tied to the price of the house but the fact that demand for these neighbohoods is not there. Prices are the effect, not the cause. And because of the region's fairly dismal response to the early 90s: (job losses, the riots, earthquakes) Southern California at least is as segregated as it's ever been. If we could find a way to end this West Coast apartheid everyone would be better off, but won't stop people moving out of state to chase better opportunities.

[Jeff Simms]

Yeah, mostly it's the housing costs. There are many salary calculators on the net, and it's sad to see how much cheaper it is to live outside of California. In fact, almost anywhere outside CA. is about 50% less! It's really crazy when you think about it.
The housing costs make no sense at all. The bubble was fueled by toxic loans and too easy credit, creating a false demand with rife speculation. I'm afraid that the current bubble has ruined SOCA for good.
Also, the immigration problem is very real, and you don't have to be a racist to see it.
As property values drop, the state is in for some tough times.
Housing, taxes, traffic, smog, overcrowding...the quality of life just isn't what it should be.
I've traveled and lived all over, and I can name a dozen areas that are better than SOCA in every way you can think of. I'm planning to leave LA in the next two or three years, and I don't even care where I go just so I get the hell out of here.

[Cherie]

I love LA. It's one of my favorite places, and I've lived in many cities, domestic and foreign. But I'm thinking about leaving in a few years, just so I can live in a decent school district and not commute. (I have a doctorate, by the way. I don't spend frivolously. And I can't afford a house.) I'll be sad to go, and I hope it turns around, but ultimately something tells me I'll be one of the ones who "can't hack it" here.

Something also tells me I won't regret it.

[Competitive Spirit]

Complainers, don't sugarcoat the fact you can't hack it out here. I have a great house, my commute is short, and I have access to world class dining, cultural events, etc. I have fresh air, and wide open spaces as well. And I bought my home early in the decade, so I can assure you that my whatever appreciation you may have, I have much much more. Even deducting the current drop in value, I can still buy your house on my equity...you have to remember that MOST people benefited from the housing market, even though the foreclosures are the story the public likes to follow.

My children go to nationally ranked schools (#1 in calculus- nationally, with the other programs not far behind) and they go to school with children of leading professors, researchers, doctors, and other smart-working (not just hard working) parents.

Its unfortunate that you couldn't define your lives the way you wanted without leaving California, but that's the way it seems to be presented. Like it or not, California is a competitive place. People just can't hack it here, and if you can't, feel free to leave. That's entirely fine. To be frank, I'd rather not have people such as yourselves influencing my children or the rest of us for that matter. However, you can't blame the entire state or even just LA for your shortcomings. Come on now, that's externalizing a problem that's more than likely an internal or personal deficiency.

[Theron]

I've been in LA for about 5 years now and I love it. Food, weather, mix of humanity, recreation, using my car to go everywhere - its all good. I do have a good income and rent close to work. I think a short commute is key wherever you are. We'll see how I feel if I own a house, have a longer commute and kids in school...