Christopher Nolan on 'Dark Knight' and its box-office billion: 'It's mystifying to me'

EXCLUSIVE

'Dark Knight' director says he isn't sure he will make a third Bat-film. Why? He says: "I have to ask the question: How many good third movies in a franchise can people name?"

This is the first of a three-part interview with Christopher Nolan, the director of the astoundingly successful summer film “The Dark Knight,” which has pulled in $528 million in the U.S. alone (a total second only to “Titanic”) and has worldwide grosses that are now approaching the $1 billion mark.

The 38-year-old London native has just returned home to Los Angeles (where he attended the Spike TV Scream 2008 Awards, pictured above) after a monthlong stay at Anna Maria Island on the west coast of Florida where, along with playing on the beach with his children, he contemplated the commercial success of his grim superhero epic — as well as the industry buzz about the film’s chances during the upcoming Oscar season. In today's installment, he talks about the perceived politics of the movie, his plans for the future and that staggering box-office total.

GB: Welcome back to L.A. So I'm curious, tell me one of the surprises you've had during the journey of this film after its release on July 18.

NOLAN: It’s funny, I’ve been asked a lot about the politics of the film. I dismiss all such analogies [laughs]. It really isn’t something we think about as we put the story together, myself, David Goyer and Jonathan [Nolan, brother of the director]. But I would point to the interrogation scene with Batman and the Joker — not that there is a specific political point, per se — but that I was interested in getting the actors to explore a paradox: How do you fight somebody who essentially thrives on aggression?

GB: I winced when I read a lot of the political messaging that people said they detected in your film. I think a lot of that says more about my industry than it does yours.

NOLAN: [Laughs] "Yes, you may be right."

GB: It seems to me that, more often than not in a genre such as the one you’re working in, most of the political messaging has more to do with the viewer than the filmmaker. It’s inferred, not implied.

NOLAN: I agree completely. Especially if you do it right. If you’re working in a genre that is heightened reality. I like to talk about these films as having an operatic quality or being on a grand scale and a bit removed from the rhythms of real life, no matter how realistic we try to make the scenes themselves. In this scene, for instance, we went for the gritty realism in the textures of it, but it is a heightened reality. We’re trying to work on a more universal scale. If you get that right, people are going to be able to bring a wide variety of interpretations to it depending on who they are. It’s allowing the characters to be a conduit to the audience. Allowing an audience to sit there and relate to Batman and his dilemma whether they are Republican or Democrat or whatever. ...

GB: "The Dark Knight" is closing in on $1 billion. How do you get your arms around that kind of success?

NOLAN: I can’t get my arms around it, to be quite frank. It’s mystifying. It’s terrific but at the same time it’s a little abstract, the numbers are so big. The biggest thrill for me would be, with the number of people who have gone to see the film, how "The Dark Knight" stood on the shoulders of the first film, how we were able to build the audience up and build the story up from the first film. That was really exciting to see. We were all pretty happy with the performance of the first film but so we really didn’t know, "Where does it go from there?" For it to become such a phenomenon is extraordinarily gratifying. I mean, I’ve spent now like six years or something working on Batman films. It becomes an important part of your life; you become very obsessive about it, and it's pretty fun when there are other people sharing your obsession and going to see the film a dozen times or whatever.

Wrapping your arms around the scale of the success, as you ask, I don’t find that possible really. There’s something liberating in knowing that my next film, whatever it is, isn’t going to make as much money [laughter]. I don’t have to try for years.

GB: As far as a follow-up, have you considered "Batman and the Mystery of the Titanic"?

NOLAN: I think you may be right, that might be the way to go.

GB: Watching "The Dark Knight," it’s very easy to imagine the Joker returning to Gotham, the way his fate remains unresolved. When you were writing the film, did you anticipate that the Joker would be back in the third film?

NOLAN: No, really and in truth, I only deal with one film at a time. I find myself sort of protesting this issue a lot. We’ve never attempted to save anything for a sequel or set up anything for a sequel. That seems improbable to some people because, particularly with "Batman Begins," the film ended with a particular hook [with Jim Gordon showing Batman a Joker playing card announcing the arrival of a new villain in town]. But for me that was just about the excitement of people leaving the theater with the sense that now we have the character up and running. I wanted people to walk away with that sense in their head. You know, that he’s become the Batman in the movie. That’s why we had the title come up at the end, because it was "Batman Begins," and it was all very specific to that.

Then I got excited about seeing where that character would go. It was planned in advance, but it followed in that way. But we tried our hardest to really do everything in this movie that we would want to see the Joker do and to get that in the fabric of the story as much as possible. We wanted the Joker’s final taunt to Batman to be that they are locked in an ongoing struggle because of Batman’s rules. There’s a paradox there. Batman won’t kill. And the Joker is not interested in completely defeating Batman because he’s fascinated by him and he enjoys sparring with him. It’s trapped both of them. That was really the meaning of it. Of course what happened is Heath created the most extraordinary character that you would love to see 10 movies about. That’s the bittersweet thing. It was incredible characterization. It is a bittersweet thing for all of us.

GB: After the massive, military-level operation of making "Dark Knight," is there part of you leaning toward a smaller, more nimble sort of production next?

NOLAN: On one hand, yeah, there is a certain feeling to do that. After "Batman Begins," I certainly felt like taking on something smaller, but one of the things I got such a thrill from on "The Dark Knight" was shooting on Imax and creating that massive scale and achieving that larger-than-life quality. So that’s a lot of fun. I’m drawn in both directions now. So maybe what I need to do next is a very intimate, small story that happens to be photographed on a ridiculously large scale. Or vice versa [laughs].

GB: I’m not sure I even know what that means.

NOLAN: Yes, I don’t know what it means either [laughter]. But really what I know is that it’s about story at the end of the day. ... But I do feel there is this tug to do big scale and small scale, so I don’t know. ...

GB: Maybe you need to make a small story in a huge place. "My Dinner With Andre" at the top of Mt. Everest.

NOLAN: Or in outer space. That might work.

GB: Could you see actually yourself not making the third Batman film?

NOLAN: Well ... let me think how to put this. There are two things to be said. One is the emphasis on story. What’s the story? Is there a story that’s going to keep me emotionally invested for the couple of years that it will take to make another one? That’s the overriding question. On a more superficial level, I have to ask the question: How many good third movies in a franchise can people name? [Laughs.] At the same time, in taking on the second one, we had the challenge of trying to make a great second movie, and there haven't been too many of those either. It’s all about the story really. If the story is there, everything is possible. I hope that was a suitably slippery answer.

-- Geoff Boucher

READ PART TWO OF THIS INTERVIEW: Christopher Nolan dissects his favorite scene in "The Dark Knight"

READ PART THREE:

Christopher Nolan doesn't think Marvel-style movies crossovers will work with his Gotham City

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How to follow "Dark Knight": Angelina Jolie as the purrrfect Catwoman

Daring to hate "Dark Knight"

Christopher Nolan's 'Knight" vision

Credits: First-page photo of Christopher Nolan and other members of "The Dark Knight" team at the Spike TV Scream 2008 Awards by Chris Pizzello/Associated Press. Bottom photo of Nolan at the show by Frederick M. Brown/Gett images. All other images from "The Dark Knight" and courtesy of Warner Bros.

Comments

[Mr.Floppy]

It's obvious he'll do the next one.
Since the very beginning, Nolan and Goyer said it will be a Trilogy. Even they said they will save Joker to appear on a third film, instead of killing him at the end of the second (well, they said too that Two Face will be third's main villain, but TDK demanded that ending, so...).
It's about time, we all know the story is unresolved, and that's a closed, but open ending, just like Begins.

[RonO]

The Dark Knight was great and hopefully Mr Nolan will direct a third Batman film. I only hope they continue with the view of Batman's internal conflicts and it's effect on Gotham as a whole. My thoughts of which villians are viable in Nolan's Batman Universe include The Riddler, Catwoman, and Black Mask, an interesting villian with great backstory. The Penquin could be great if done right, but Nolan's not keen on that character.

Let's hope Mr Nolan finds "the right story" and makes another wonderful Batman film.

[Mr.Floppy]

He should use The Riddler "a la" Zodiac.
A psycho that makes Batman going public again (playing with some Dark Knight Returns themes), but it's never seen, so many people will think it's the Joker, who scaped from Arkham (but he's not).

If he want to show Joker, he could write him like Hannibal Lecter, with Batman "consulting" him at Arkham about The Riddler. Joseph Gordon-Levitt would play an excellent make-up-less Joker.

[juan0162]

Christopher Nolan is a true Filmmaker, other directors would make a sequel just for the money (michael bay) but christopher nolan is passionate about a great story and his way of making a great film i hope he gets an Oscars Nomination.

[Jason]

Batman has always been my favorite super hero. I really hope Mr. Nolan doesn't leave the story between Batman and Gotham the way he has. That being said, I'd prefer it ending here rather than seeing another 'Batman Forever' or even worse, 'Spiderman 3'

[jason]

Villains I'd like to see in a 3rd Christopher Nolan film in no particular order:

The Ventriloquist & Scarface.
Clayface (although I think this one would be really hard to do well)
Rupert Thorne
Mr. Freeze (This story could have been so much better and Nolan could do it true justice)
Harley Quinn (I hated all the other female villains but loved how twisted her story was)

I think the Riddler would have been good if it weren't for the Saw movies and the possibility of the Riddler turning into this type character. I'd prefer orignality to rehash.

I think the rest of the big name villains are too obvious and that makes them suck as a possible choice but this is all just my opinion.

[Megaoutput]

yes make the 3rd...here is you story ...
what you have to do is make BATMAN A VILLIAN...HAHA HA..then the city has to turn to the criminals to save the city.......everybody who like batman...has inner conflict b/c they want him to be good....batman gets drunk with power......two face is his lawyer!!! lol lol...end the people(police) must become the hero ............at the end batman fakes his death...and his alter ego "batman" dies.....but they find who he is and they want bruce wayne to die too...who saves him........the villians!!!!!!!!!!! then he has inner struggle b/c he can't do justice.....because everytime he catch a bad guy....he thinks back that it was a bad guy who save him.....so begans to have the inner conflict ...just like the people who like him

email me if you like that story
story@megaoutput.com

[sporty]

come now, Bale signed on for a three movie deal of Terminator.

I doubt another batman will be done.

[Melody]

I respect that Nolan is putting emphasis on story. Too many moves are sliding by on CGI rather than properly vetting their writing department.

Here's hoping he finds that story.

Personally, I think something involving Bane would work well. In the comics, Bane was the only villain ever to seriously hurt Batman and strike fear into him.

[Mysterio]

What's with all the Robin hating? Robin is a great character who brings out many demensions in Batman and Bruce Wayne. If put into the films he should start out as a 13 year old. And if there are more parts, he can transform into Knightwing as he gets older. There is much conflict between Batman and Robin, we see a little bit of this in the first run of the franchise.

Also Robin can spin-off into a triology, showcasing the three different boys--Dick, Todd, and Tim--who have worn the cape.

[JL]

I would like to see a third Batman movie. To see Wayne Manor redone and a new Bat cave.
Also, I would like to see Christian Bale as Batman and 2 face. If he really survived the last movie.
I think if there was a director out there it would have to be Nolan again. He has done wonders for the first two movies.
Even in the Hulk movie, Iron Man was in it. The thought of a team? That would be awesome, but what about the bad guys?
Heath Ledger made a far better Joker than Jack Nicolson. I personally think it is there to be made just need a great story line to go with it.

[Paul Rios]

Dear, Christopher Nolan
He really should come out with a third but the villian in this one is The Riddler, Scarecrow, and Twoface but in this one batman has his sikick to help him and third movies really work out like Pirates of the Carribean At Worlds End.

Sincerly
Paul Rios

[Zach]

The dark knight was simply mindblowing production... wow from start to end chill and excitement ran thru me.. ive seen it over a dozen times and it never gets boring...there must be a continuation of the series... I think the third one Bat-Man has to be on the run and restore his name.. a return of Harvey Dent as villian... and possibly johnny dep to play the joker... Joker was brilliant and im not sure if any one can do a better job than the late Ledger.... I believe the 3rd one should wrap up the series and should be sad and dramatic... i loved all the carnage and explosions in the dark knight and cant stop watching it over and over... Ive picked up all the small details........

IF THERE IS NO THIRD MOVIE THEN YOU EITHER DIE A HERO OR LIVE LONG ENOUGH TO SEE YOURSELF BECOME THE VILLIAN

[Michael]

well I had to throw out a few thoughts because what good is having a forum if I can't add my two cents.
First off the interview was amazing, Chris Nolan is the man, and a batman 3 would be a great if he felt as strongly about it as he did 1&2.
Second I am tired of people talking about wanting to see blank as riddler or blank as catwoman or blank as penguin... The brilliant thing about the series thus far is that it has cast batman in a new light that fans of the older movies never got to see before. Don't ruin that by bringing in the same villains over again when there are so many others to choose from. With all the advancements in CGI right now (i.e. the emily interview) it would be amazing to breath new life into a character like killer kroc or one of the many others that have never really been used in the mainstream movies.
And lastly on building a quality 3rd movie. anything is possible as long as you take them one at a time. If you did it just for the sake of making a third or if Nolan did it but wasn't as passionate about this story it would be ruined.

p.s. two towers was the best in the LOTR series, empire strikes back was the best is Star wars series, Live free or die hard (an unprecedented 4th) was the best in that series, Beverly Hills Cop II (hillarious), and whoever said Indiana Jones 3 was the best in the series has clearly never seen a movie in his/her life.

[Jesus]

A good story for the third film would be, among others, Batman :Knightsend that in the comic books was the end of the Knightfall storyline that describes how Batman's most threatening foe, Bane (not the cheap version that was used on the Batman and Robin movie), sends Gotham City spinning into chaos and takes Batman to the limits of human endurance. Since Mr. Nolan is so interested in good story telling for the Batman films, I guess this is a good story for a next movie.

[Gary Bowden]

I can understand Nolan taking his time in doing another Batman sequel.To me he seems very serious at what he does and not just put out another sequel because the second made a ton of money.There has to be a good story and cast the right actors and not go with who's popular(Jim Carrey,Nicole Kidman;etc.)at the time.Plus,I think a good wait would be good for the public as well instead of putting one out real quick while the "iron was hot"so to speak..The great thing that Nolan did with the Batman franchise is bring it to a realistic level and not the campy silliness that Schumacher did.Burton did a good job with the first one,but the second one was overshadowed by Catwoman and the Peguin,which to me,was a little too much and didn't fit into the world of Batman..What Nolan did with Batman was make him a badass,which he should be..All in all,perfect casting,writing,acting and directing in The Dark Knight....

[The Dork Knight]

Why doesn't Batman dance anymore? Remember the Batusi? Why can't we have another Batman movie like "Batman & Robin?" That was the best one! Get Prince back to do the theme song, "Batdance" from the first Tim Burton one and call the movie:

"So You Think You Can Batdance."

Make Egghead (Vincent Price's character from the TV show) the villain for the third one. And Nolan needs to put the Bat-nipples back on the Batsuit, once and for all!

[Eric M. Moran, Sr.]

I'm certain that Warner has options on Mr. Nolan and no doubt want another film. Maybe I'm wrong, considering the movies' stratospheric success - but I doubt it. Whatever Chris does next is bound to be a gem of a product, for he is full aware of the importance of the story and the art of creation. They will find all these "riddles" answered at www.myspace.com/erokentertainment. There is only ONE living actor who bring the brilliantly facile mind, nihilistic angst and maniacal glee of the Riddler to the screen: the one and only Mr. Brett Rickaby.

[MS]

Dont even think about bringing The Joker back in a sequel. Nobody could ever live up to Heath Ledgers version of the Joker.

[ahab]

I'll send you a script Chris.

[Diego]

Thanx, awesome interview. Nice, really nice read.

[Lady V]

GIVE US MORE - I need to see Christian Bale in a tight hot costume all the time, add consistent newness to my life! There are so many more characters to explore...Harley Quinn should swoop in and take over for the Joker, who I don't want to see played by anyone else but the deceased - and we all know that isn't going to happen! Come on Catwoman, Penguin, Riddler - Jim Carrey was awesome - , The Mad Hatter, Clayface, Talia Al Gul should totally be his love interest so they can touch an Ra's, her father as a villian and EVEN the Ventriloquist...There is plenty of story to make it interesting, that is the writers job. If your writers start to suck, hire new ones.

[J]

Megan Fox? Dear God no. Just no.

[Desiree Soper]

I have been a batman fan for a long time. I have really enjoyed Christopher Nolan's Batman movies and would love to see him make more. Catwoman has always been my favorite character, but I only like how she is portrayed in the comic books, Batman:TAS, and Batman(60's show), because she was portayed as a non-supernatural woman in a catsuit. I did not like Michelle Pheippher's or Halle Berry's catwoman because of their ties to the supernatural, it really is degrading to women. One of the main things I love about Batman is the reality of it, it's basis of psychology not the supernatural.Catwoman needs to be portrayed as just a regular woman with strength and intelligence like Batman and Selina Kyle needs to be similar to Bruce Wayne. I always wanted Catwoman to be portayed in a real life movie like she is in the comics, it will finally do the character justice, and Nolan could make a fantastic Catwoman that I can be proud of. I also like Poison Ivy who would also be an excellent character to use because of the environmental problems today and I think Nolan would have a great story there. Uma Thurman's Poison Ivy was a total disgrace to the character and I think Nolan could portray that character in a much better way.Harley Quinn is another favorite of mine and she has not yet been in a real life movie so I think Nolan has an excellent opportunity to bring that character to life and make her pychotic and funny like she is in Batman:TAS. As for the male villains, Heath Ledger would be difficult to replace since his portrayal of the Joker was pure genius, but I think Johnny Depp as the Riddler would be an excellent choice since he is one of the most talented actors around and many people love him, including me. I would just like to end my comment by saying that, since majority of the male characters in Batman are just regular people with psychological issues including Batman himself it would be nice to see the main female characters portrayed the same way. That is what makes Batman so special is that he is human with no super powers, his character is deep, and you can relate to him more so then other heroes because of this. I really hope Nolan makes more Batman movies, because he really knows how to portray Batman with the artistry, depth, and intelligence, I think Bob Kane would have wanted and been proud of.

[Jay Dittamo]

Hi the Nolan crew are doing a great job of making the unreal - real, and bringing us a Batman we can believe in. Just a couple of disjointed things here Batman Begins a Micro wave emitter wouldn't that also do some pretty nasty things to people and animals. And in the Dark Knight Harvey Dent is dead ? but Two face has to live other wise Batman did kill someone and the joker got his way.
Just something to think about can't wait to see the new Bat cave and new stuff get to work and thanks.