Christopher Nolan on 'Dark Knight' and its box-office billion: 'It's mystifying to me'

EXCLUSIVE

'Dark Knight' director says he isn't sure he will make a third Bat-film. Why? He says: "I have to ask the question: How many good third movies in a franchise can people name?"

This is the first of a three-part interview with Christopher Nolan, the director of the astoundingly successful summer film “The Dark Knight,” which has pulled in $528 million in the U.S. alone (a total second only to “Titanic”) and has worldwide grosses that are now approaching the $1 billion mark.

The 38-year-old London native has just returned home to Los Angeles (where he attended the Spike TV Scream 2008 Awards, pictured above) after a monthlong stay at Anna Maria Island on the west coast of Florida where, along with playing on the beach with his children, he contemplated the commercial success of his grim superhero epic — as well as the industry buzz about the film’s chances during the upcoming Oscar season. In today's installment, he talks about the perceived politics of the movie, his plans for the future and that staggering box-office total.

GB: Welcome back to L.A. So I'm curious, tell me one of the surprises you've had during the journey of this film after its release on July 18.

NOLAN: It’s funny, I’ve been asked a lot about the politics of the film. I dismiss all such analogies [laughs]. It really isn’t something we think about as we put the story together, myself, David Goyer and Jonathan [Nolan, brother of the director]. But I would point to the interrogation scene with Batman and the Joker — not that there is a specific political point, per se — but that I was interested in getting the actors to explore a paradox: How do you fight somebody who essentially thrives on aggression?

GB: I winced when I read a lot of the political messaging that people said they detected in your film. I think a lot of that says more about my industry than it does yours.

NOLAN: [Laughs] "Yes, you may be right."

GB: It seems to me that, more often than not in a genre such as the one you’re working in, most of the political messaging has more to do with the viewer than the filmmaker. It’s inferred, not implied.

NOLAN: I agree completely. Especially if you do it right. If you’re working in a genre that is heightened reality. I like to talk about these films as having an operatic quality or being on a grand scale and a bit removed from the rhythms of real life, no matter how realistic we try to make the scenes themselves. In this scene, for instance, we went for the gritty realism in the textures of it, but it is a heightened reality. We’re trying to work on a more universal scale. If you get that right, people are going to be able to bring a wide variety of interpretations to it depending on who they are. It’s allowing the characters to be a conduit to the audience. Allowing an audience to sit there and relate to Batman and his dilemma whether they are Republican or Democrat or whatever. ...

GB: "The Dark Knight" is closing in on $1 billion. How do you get your arms around that kind of success?

NOLAN: I can’t get my arms around it, to be quite frank. It’s mystifying. It’s terrific but at the same time it’s a little abstract, the numbers are so big. The biggest thrill for me would be, with the number of people who have gone to see the film, how "The Dark Knight" stood on the shoulders of the first film, how we were able to build the audience up and build the story up from the first film. That was really exciting to see. We were all pretty happy with the performance of the first film but so we really didn’t know, "Where does it go from there?" For it to become such a phenomenon is extraordinarily gratifying. I mean, I’ve spent now like six years or something working on Batman films. It becomes an important part of your life; you become very obsessive about it, and it's pretty fun when there are other people sharing your obsession and going to see the film a dozen times or whatever.

Wrapping your arms around the scale of the success, as you ask, I don’t find that possible really. There’s something liberating in knowing that my next film, whatever it is, isn’t going to make as much money [laughter]. I don’t have to try for years.

GB: As far as a follow-up, have you considered "Batman and the Mystery of the Titanic"?

NOLAN: I think you may be right, that might be the way to go.

GB: Watching "The Dark Knight," it’s very easy to imagine the Joker returning to Gotham, the way his fate remains unresolved. When you were writing the film, did you anticipate that the Joker would be back in the third film?

NOLAN: No, really and in truth, I only deal with one film at a time. I find myself sort of protesting this issue a lot. We’ve never attempted to save anything for a sequel or set up anything for a sequel. That seems improbable to some people because, particularly with "Batman Begins," the film ended with a particular hook [with Jim Gordon showing Batman a Joker playing card announcing the arrival of a new villain in town]. But for me that was just about the excitement of people leaving the theater with the sense that now we have the character up and running. I wanted people to walk away with that sense in their head. You know, that he’s become the Batman in the movie. That’s why we had the title come up at the end, because it was "Batman Begins," and it was all very specific to that.

Then I got excited about seeing where that character would go. It was planned in advance, but it followed in that way. But we tried our hardest to really do everything in this movie that we would want to see the Joker do and to get that in the fabric of the story as much as possible. We wanted the Joker’s final taunt to Batman to be that they are locked in an ongoing struggle because of Batman’s rules. There’s a paradox there. Batman won’t kill. And the Joker is not interested in completely defeating Batman because he’s fascinated by him and he enjoys sparring with him. It’s trapped both of them. That was really the meaning of it. Of course what happened is Heath created the most extraordinary character that you would love to see 10 movies about. That’s the bittersweet thing. It was incredible characterization. It is a bittersweet thing for all of us.

GB: After the massive, military-level operation of making "Dark Knight," is there part of you leaning toward a smaller, more nimble sort of production next?

NOLAN: On one hand, yeah, there is a certain feeling to do that. After "Batman Begins," I certainly felt like taking on something smaller, but one of the things I got such a thrill from on "The Dark Knight" was shooting on Imax and creating that massive scale and achieving that larger-than-life quality. So that’s a lot of fun. I’m drawn in both directions now. So maybe what I need to do next is a very intimate, small story that happens to be photographed on a ridiculously large scale. Or vice versa [laughs].

GB: I’m not sure I even know what that means.

NOLAN: Yes, I don’t know what it means either [laughter]. But really what I know is that it’s about story at the end of the day. ... But I do feel there is this tug to do big scale and small scale, so I don’t know. ...

GB: Maybe you need to make a small story in a huge place. "My Dinner With Andre" at the top of Mt. Everest.

NOLAN: Or in outer space. That might work.

GB: Could you see actually yourself not making the third Batman film?

NOLAN: Well ... let me think how to put this. There are two things to be said. One is the emphasis on story. What’s the story? Is there a story that’s going to keep me emotionally invested for the couple of years that it will take to make another one? That’s the overriding question. On a more superficial level, I have to ask the question: How many good third movies in a franchise can people name? [Laughs.] At the same time, in taking on the second one, we had the challenge of trying to make a great second movie, and there haven't been too many of those either. It’s all about the story really. If the story is there, everything is possible. I hope that was a suitably slippery answer.

-- Geoff Boucher

READ PART TWO OF THIS INTERVIEW: Christopher Nolan dissects his favorite scene in "The Dark Knight"

READ PART THREE:

Christopher Nolan doesn't think Marvel-style movies crossovers will work with his Gotham City

RELATED:

How to follow "Dark Knight": Angelina Jolie as the purrrfect Catwoman

Daring to hate "Dark Knight"

Christopher Nolan's 'Knight" vision

Credits: First-page photo of Christopher Nolan and other members of "The Dark Knight" team at the Spike TV Scream 2008 Awards by Chris Pizzello/Associated Press. Bottom photo of Nolan at the show by Frederick M. Brown/Gett images. All other images from "The Dark Knight" and courtesy of Warner Bros.

Comments

[Shane Harris]

Great interview!

[Aeghast]

Great great interview. Looking for the rest of it.

[Technut]

C'mon Chris.......give us one more and then put it to bed..........Oh and at least show Jokers silhouette in a cell at Arkham............maybe rocking back and forth laughing.

[Rolando]

Don't ask How many good third movies in a franchise can people name?

ASK can I make the FIRST good third movies in a franchise?

By the way LOTR: The return of the King do not count?

[Paul Joshu]

Awesome interview. I support Nolan on whatever he wants to do next. I will say though he is the only man that can do the third batman movie. Don't even try to replace him. I don't care if i have to wait 5 years for Batman 3. Better wait and get it done right then pull a Spider Man 3 on us just to eat our money. One of the five best directors of all times, Christopher Nolan.

[Eric]

Good interview! I see some postering by Mr. Nolan, maybe the money for the next film hasn't been work out yet. The next installment should feature Catwoman(Megan Fox) as the villian/love ineterest! The film should be a samson and delila theme and Mr. Nolan should title it "Gotham!" I am a hardcore Batman fan going way back and thats what I want to see!

[Justin P. Drew]

Oh wow. He is truly an amazing filmmaker.

He managed to mix passion and mass success. Usually it's either/or.

[Nizar]

Yes, great interview so far. I'm looking forward to the next two parts. As much as I would love to see a third film by Mr. Nolan, I completely agree that a great story is required. I actually am really interested in whatever his next non-Batman film will be. After MEMENTO and INSOMNIA, I honestly had no idea what else to expect from a director like Nolan. But BEGINS, PRESTIGE, and TDK...just get out there Christopher and create and you can expect me to be in the theater seat.
I'm kind of surprise he was vacationing so close. Anna Maria Island is about 25 miles away from where I live in Tampa. I would love to thank him and shake his hand for some incredible filmmaking.

[Andrews]

Star Wars 3 was much better then Episode1-2 and also LOTR - Return of the king better than the two towers. And etc etc.

Nolan is the director who can make a brilliant trilogy with a brilliant story telling with Goyer, Jonathan Nolan and him. (The prestige, Memmento the two batman film, hell they were great movies with superb story)

[Eric]

The next film should have a samson and delila theme! The villian/love interest should be Catwoman(Megan Fox) and it should be titled simply "Gotham"!

[Kenny Frawley]

Ironically, I can name a good 3rd movie in a franchise: "Batman Forever". Despite what Joel Schumacher did to the Two-Face character and that Robin was too old, it actually was really enjoyable. I know that most people like to pretend that Tim Burton made the 1st one and then, "TDK" appeared but, no. It's the best of the bunch, no question but, no one can erase Jack Nicholson's, Michelle Pfieffer's nor, Michael Gough's PERFECT interpretations of those characters. Also, I love Christian Bale; Val Kilmer was good and George Clooney could have been great but, I never liked Michael Keaton UNTIL he reinvented Bruce/Batman.
So, Mr.Nolan may've made the best Bat-film but, despite what he thinks, he didn't create the franchise. And, believe it or not, someone else may even make a great Batman movie after him...just not the best. That honor is and, I think, will always be his. Thank you, sir.

[Aaron]

They need to come back with the return of the dark knight. With Johnny Depp playing the Riddler. He would be a good actor and will probably be the best one to play a role as good as Hedger did for the Joker.

[vespersan]

I cannot believe how large Mr. Nolan's ego must be that he cannot see Heath Ledger's performance as the reason for the large boxoffice... the fact that he had almost nothing to do with it is what really baffles the guy... I'm sorry, but doesnt this guy watch his own films?

[DJS]

I mentioned this elsewhere, but I when I came out of TDK for the first time I immediately thought that it would be neat to have a third film based around a line I read in the comic about "what it means to be a cop in Gotham City: it's to forever be in the shadow of the Bat." But yes, I'd rather have two incredible and story-driven movies by themselves than a trilogy put together for the sake of having a trilogy.

[Eric V]

Whoever said Megan Fox should be in the next movie is crazy. I think Nolan made a statement when he replaced Katie Holmes with Maggie G saying that he is gonna use quality actors for these roles. He's not going to cast a hottie who cannot act (and one who is too young for batman anyways). If Catwoman is in the third (which I doubt she will), I want someone like Scarlett.

But as for this, I would love a third batman but only if its done by nolan. So if he doesnt like the story thats involved, that means a bad script with a worse director will ruin this franchise. And on the other hand, if he does it, the movie will undoubtedly be amazing.

p.s. I still dont buy the fact that Two Face is dead (since he really wasnt Two Face yet), but if hes not in it, I want Hush in the new one.

[Korath]

Good 3rd movies?? Bond. Indiana Jones. Starwars RotJ, Harry Potter, ReturnoftheKing, Pirates of the Carribean, Armyof Darkness, resident evil, Bourne, MAdmax thunderdome to name a few.

[Helen C.]

Let me be the first to say that if a third Batman movie comes about with Catwoman and Jolle is cast in that role... I WILL NOT spend one red cent to see it! While I do agree that she would make an excellent Catwoman, iI just can't stomach her anymore. Oh, and please... NO ROBIN!!! Christian Bale's Batman should always work alone.

[Todd]

If Nolan wants to really see what it takes to make an artistic, epic third film, he need look no further than Jonathan Mostow's opus "Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines". Hopefully he pulls a Marstow and does it for the art, and not just a huge pay day.

[Theo Graham-Brown]

Personally I'd rate Batman Forever as one of the single worst movie's I've ever watched, down there alongside Repossessed and Mortal Kombat.

The problem with 'good' third films is there's generally a dip in the second one to offset. E.g. Last Crusade but it follows the woeful Temple of Doom. I don't think you can really use the LOTR films as a guide since they're three parts of a single novel but if you do then The Two Towers was quite a weak film on a lot of fronts, especially in how much it deviated from the source text compared to the other two. As to Revenge of the Sith...well it's actually a decent enough 6th movie in a franchise but it's not like it had far to travel to beat films 3, 4 and 5, and it's well below Empire Strikes Back and the original Star Wars.

I hope he does make that 3rd film, though and I think it will certainly be good enough even if it doesn't hit the bar of The Dark Knight. The main issue for a third film is the lack of decent villains after you remove Joker and Two-Face for a 'dark' Batman universe.

[md. abdus salam]

It's really an interisting movie & i personaly enjoyed 2 see it.

[Jim]

He'll be back. And if not, a third film will be made regardless....$1 billion in revenue, you know there will be another, guaranteed. It's the hollywood way anymore..successfull movies come in franschise packages of three

[Christian Charette]

Good interview. All I have to say about a third film (which should, and let's face it, will happen) is that: Batman Begins was about Bruce Wayne; Dark Knight was about what Batman could become without his own sense of moral, i.e. the Joker; the third film should be about Batman. The only issue I have with TDK is that any actor with less presence than Bale would have been lost among all the powerful performances around him (Ledger, Eckhart and Oldman are all spectacular). The third films needs to rest squarely on the shoulders of Batman as he becomes the hero he is supposed to be. Whatever it is, though, I can't wait to see it. And yes... that age-old rumor of PSH as the Penguin is a marvelous rumor.

[Markus McLaughlin]

Gillian Anderson has always been an underrated actress, but, she won an Emmy for playing Dana Scully in The X-Files. She needs to play a character that moves and haunts you. Find it in your heart to let her play the Cat-Woman, she can bring tragedy and humor to Selina Kyle / Cat-Woman! She could create a character that knows Bruce Wayne's secret, that can tear him apart, but ultimately loses at the end. Cat-Woman needs the perfect movie, the third Batman Begins film could be that! Another villain deserves a film : The Riddler, Riddler and Cat-Woman fighting against Batman would be an incredible concept to see brought to life. Robin Williams as the Riddler would be ideal, he is capable of both humor and evilness. I hope these ideas are sent to Christopher Nolan and the Batman Writers.

From a fellow aspiring Screenwriter, Markus McLaughlin / marknetproductions.wordpress.com / Hudson, MA, USA

[Darkey]

What Happened?
Did his ball dropped off, Hmmm?

Just Kidding!

Of course, maybe he has been pressured by the success of TDK

I Believe that sooner or later he'll sign-up for the third movie...
Despite the Fact that Heath died, I Believe that they will come up with a good storyline and plot. Of Course, with the proper execution and treatment. I believe That They'll (with his Brother, Jonathan Nolan and David S. Goyer) able to do it!

(For those people who believe that all third movies from a franchise sucks: The Godfather III, Spiderman 3 )

Look at the Bright side!

- Lord the Rings: Return of the King
- Bourne Ultimatum

Those are the only ones I've Seen

I believe in Christopher Nolan's Talent!
Maybe He will be the 1st Director who will make the Best Movie Trilogy the world has ever seen....

[daniel]

MR. NOLAN THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Dark Knight was a cinematic masterpiece! Leave is as is. There's no need for a third movie. Batman riding off in the dark is perfect. In the comics Batman is always at odd with the police, he's always the villian to them. Only Gordon within the force knows Batman stands for good. It's a great ending to two great pieces of art. LONG LIVE KING NOLAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!