Zimmer brings 'punk attitude' to Batman with 'The Dark Knight'

With the release of "Batman Begins" in 2005, director Christopher Nolan reframed the series with a true-crime grit. A stark push away from the cartoon-like "Batman & Robin," Nolan's take revisited the darker tones established by Tim Burton's 1989 film and its 1992 sequel, "Batman Returns."

Batman was again a tortured soul first and a superhero second. And with a film noir look, and an underlying theme of government corruption, "Batman Begins" had a complex approach more in line with "Batman Returns."

But Nolan's film also brought a sense of realism to the franchise. Chicago landmarks replaced fantastical soundstages, and Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne/Batman was a vigilante who was a bit clumsy at times, and still very much a work in progress at film's end.

Yet perhaps where the film took the greatest departure from previous cinematic was in its music. Before "Batman Begins," the franchise was marked by a grand overture created by composer Danny Elfman. His theme is a slow build of major and minor keys that give way to a melodic rush and was recycled multiple times throughout the first two "Batman" films and their animated brethren (a sample from "Batman Returns" is below).

"Batman Begins" instead saw a pairing of two composer heavyweights in Hans Zimmer ("Gladiator," "Rain Man") and James Newton Howard ("Michael Clayton"). The two shied away from giving "Batman Begins" a more traditional superhero theme, and instead went for a score that seemed to live in the shadows that the film set out to explore.

There were recurring notes heard when Batman was on the screen, but they were simple, and more rhythmic in nature. It was a sound that explored the tension in nighttime scenes rather than celebrated the arrival of the main character -- a brief flurry of strings that would appear and disappear just as fast as Batman (a sample is below).

Zimmer is still being questioned about the decision today. Before talking about the upcoming film "The Dark Knight," due in theaters July 18, Zimmer said, "Everyone keeps saying, 'When are you going to do the jolly 'Batman' theme, a la the Tim Burton movies.' It will never happen. We actually did it, and we threw it out."

Yet some early signs show "The Dark Knight" departing at least a little bit from the more subtle tones of "Batman Begins." Speaking at Zimmer's Santa Monica studio, an ornate complex that feels a bit like Wayne Manor might if it were housed in Germany instead of the fictional Gotham City, he and Howard offered a listen to some of the music in "The Dark Knight" -- albeit a brief one (they shared about 10 minutes of music).

But the theme Zimmer wrote for the Joker, played in the film by the late Heath Ledger, is a damning piece of music. It's an intense eight-minute piece that comes off like an orchestral interpretation of a something created by Trent Reznor's Nine Inch Nails. Zimmer says the work is only two notes, but the two notes are twisted and manipulated into mimicking the sounds of thunder, razors and all sorts of clatter heard in alleyways probably better left unexplored.

Though that description may not make it sound like music to the ears, it's still immensely listenable. It plays out like something from a horror film, with many a shift in direction and a nod to "Psycho." But all of it is tied together by a striking blow of strings that keep it from falling apart, and Zimmer said it bears a punk influence.

Zimmer and Howard again split up work for "The Dark Night." While Zimmer tackled the music for the Joker, Howard set his sights on Harvey Dent, the good-intentioned politician who eventually becomes the Batman foe Two-Face, played in the film by Aaron Eckhart.

Below, Zimmer and Howard discuss the opposing characters, and their approach to "The Dark Knight":

So let’s start in the obvious place. Why go with a fast-and-simple string pattern rather than give the film a big, easily recognizable theme?

Zimmer: I wanted to take the romance out of it -- the fake fantasy to it. One of the things I kept thinking about was just how iconic the bat symbol is, and at the same time how dark and unadorned it is. I spent forever getting rid of notes to get it down to just two notes in this ostinato pattern.... The bat symbol is so efficient at getting the idea across. I wanted to get really efficient.

Howard: At the same time, when you write a traditional, conventional superhero theme, it gives you so much information that it might be misleading about that character. Our Batman? We're still getting to know him. He's a very complicated guy. To attach a theme to him, a theme you can sort of hum, it defines him emotionally in a way that is false.... It advertises so much about who you are during the film. I think, in a way, a theme like that would have done that. This theme is about implication, and it's about menace.

And there is still a recognizable sound attached to the character.

Zimmer: But I'm letting the character finish the thought. It leaves a lot more space. I don't see Batman as a superhero. I wanted to be very clear about that. I wanted to take out anything that is super about this.

I've written enough big themes. The only really heroic theme I ever wrote -- the only one I thought I could write with a clear conscience -- was for the firemen in "Backdraft." There's purity about guys who come to your house to save you and your cat. Their agenda is strictly to help.

There's a complex agenda that goes through the Batman philosophy. He's a vigilante. He hides his face. What kind of man does that?

Earlier you said you did once consider that sort of heroic superhero theme. You said you created one and threw it out?

Howard: We created a number of them. Hans actually did write a terrific theme for this movie. It threatens to reappear, but then it just kind of goes away.

Zimmer: It appears early on. It ultimately appears twice. Without giving the story away, what it does is highlight the red herring of the Batman.

So why so secretive with the score? Are music cues really going to give away the film?

Zimmer: Look, here's the thing that happened on the last one: We all knew we had something pretty iconic and special. But before the movie was even out, someone had put it on a trailer for another movie. I phoned up Warner Bros. and told them they were ruining any possibility of having something special or having a franchise. Why would you take the Batman costume and put it on somebody else?

I think it's more that we're being private. We really started doing some pretty uncompromising experiments on this one. It's very tough to defend some of these things until you've put them all the way through the movie. You have to get through the whole paragraph to get to the point. Working in this private way lets us be a lot freer with our ideas.

Let’s talk about the "Joker Suite." This almost sounded like an orchestral interpretation of an industrial song.

Zimmer: Look, I'm German, so I come from the German tradition of Kraftwerk.... But I kept thinking I wanted to find a way to bring corrosion into Gotham -- corrosion and recklessness. The funny thing about that piece is that I knew what I wanted to do, but it took me months to actually do it. Nobody could play it.

It's all about acting and attitude, in a way. It's very much of the idea of taking one note and expressing any part of fearlessness and recklessness and surprise.... It is very industrial music. I tried to give it a punk attitude. I used to work with the Damned and bands like that.

Howard: What's great about the Joker theme to me is that it feels totally untethered. It just kind of exists. It lives somewhere in the cracks.

What else is different this time around?

Zimmer: This is what surprised me, and I think this needs a little clarifying. Everyone keeps saying that this film is darker than the last one. I always think that people think that means more violence. It's not that at all. There's much more of a precise intellectual thought that went into Christopher [Nolan] and his brother [Jonathan] while writing. The ideas are somehow more real and more grown-up. We're doing a summer blockbuster that deals with anarchy and old-fashioned values versus the modern man. That's a lot of fun to play with.

You guys split up characters a bit. James, can you talk about what you created for Harvey Dent/Two Face?

Howard: Basically, Harvey Dent is Gotham's great hope. He's going to turn things around. He starts out with the best of intentions. He's a brave, courageous, high-minded man. Over the course of this story, he becomes seduced and corrupted -- really by the Joker. The Joker kind of wins. It's just the arc of his character, which ultimately ends up in a very tragic self-destructive place. That was the musical line.

Zimmer: What makes it interesting is that there are such extremes. The music James wrote for Harvey Dent is really beautiful. On the hand, you have the Joker theme, and on the other hand you have that contrast of something really elegant and beautiful.

What makes this movie -– and this score -– interesting is the extremes. The black is a lot blacker because of the light.

Photos courtesy Warner Bros.

Comments

[bob]

Snooze. Danny Elfman's style was perfect for the Batman franchise. Whatever, since he continues to score Burton's films with dark humor.

[Bruce Wayne]

Begins had a "underlying theme of government corruption"...???

Did I miss something?!

[Weicher]

Bruce Wayne, I guess you have. Flass? Carmine Falcone? Judge Fayden?

C'mon. Watch it again.

By the way, BB is the best Batman film and this new flick just looks AWESOME!!

[JND]

Danny Elfman blah, blah, blah. Perfect for the Batman franchise? Thanks to Nolan the franchise was redefined and has evolved, but somehow in 20 years Elfman's music hasn't changed much. Sorry Danny, Trix are for kids and so is your music.

[fancyboy]

Well, these two composers seem to have strong theories about why their music is great. One problem: it's boring wallpaper. Elfman's themes were bombastic and perfect for the dark mood of Burton's Batman films. Zimmer and Howard's music from Batman Begins barely clears the bar for a new Law & Order spin-off. It hangs around incessantly, but does almost nothing to enhance the mood, emotion or pace of the film. Claiming that they did write a great theme, but threw it out, is unlikely at best and an excuse for a stagnant score at worst. If only these two used the same genius to write the music that they use to explain it.

[Todd Martens]

Thanks, Weicher. You beat me to it. Was just about to add that the whole police force is paid off.

[Ken]

After I heard the score to Iron Man this weekend and found it to be one of the amateurish pieces of crap ever to (dis)grace a big budget movie (a 5 year old would done a more imaginative score on his $29 Casio). We can look forward to the Zimmer factory's defacing what should be an excellent Batman movie. Pity.

[bob]

I went to see Batman Begins reluctantly, having no interest in it at all based on the trailers. I was pleasantly surprised by Chris Nolan’s work and liked the movie overall, except I found the music to be soooooooo boring and underwhelming that I found it distracting. I used to be a Hans Zimmer fan, and I think James Newton Howard is great, but if this score is anything like Batman Begins, I suspect it’ll be painfully boring, monotonic and uninspired. I don’t think you can call a minor-third interval over strings repeating a ridiculously simple and boring ostinato a theme. Too bad they chose not to use this so-called great theme that they claim to have come up with. I suspect just about anything would have been better than this score.

[duder]

Wow, never seen so much whining in a comments section.

I'm a pretty big fan of Zimmer's scores, and I really cant wait to hear the soundtrack to TDK. The Joker theme sounds very interesting and chaotic. I think Zimmer's music fits very well with the new series, much like Elfman's did with the old. But trying to translate Elfman to the new series is fundamentally flawed. Whereas Elfman had a more whimsical theme, Begins and Dark Knight has a more haunting serious tone to it, perfect for Zimmer.

[AlteredEffect]

Personally I thought the score for Batman Begins was perfect. It added to the characters evolution. And upon listening to the music independent from the film, I have also discovered it's haunting beauty. It was very special, and so I expect it to be for The Dark Knight.

[messi]

Sorry but 'Molossus' the action theme of Batman Begins destroys any heroic theme ever, be it star wars, superman, indiana jones, lord of the rings. It's the most badass heroic theme ever.

[messi]

that repeating theme is the detective theme and if you don't think it's epic when Batman is in the shadows doing his detective work then you know nothing about music, then you have the trianing theme which is a rearrangement of the detective theme and ra's al ghul's theme and the pre mentioned action theme. batman begins is one of the most intelligently scored movies ever. Compared to John Williams and Danny Elfman who will give you something to hum that repeats throughout the whole movie and then everything else is just filler nonsense. Zimmer and Howard wrote MUSIC for Begins, not a standard score.

[Topher]

The Begins soundtrack bowled me over. Heartwarming and action packed, it didn't tinker around with oddities that could work with the images on screen like Elfman's themes. That is why everyone wants the music on their trailers. It is more universal than even its creators give it credit for.

[Chad Habig]

It never ceases to amaze me how bitter and judgemental everyone gets about these film scores. I am a HUGE Batman fan and I have also had experience scoring music for commercials and independent films. It would be wise to mention that the production team works together with the composers to create a cohesive product. Why is it so wrong that a composer wants to embrace the artistic vision of the director and cinematographer? We all have personal ideas on what WE would have done or preferred based upon our own views on script and story, so why must we berate a fellow composer's vision. These guys were chosen for a reason. Granted, if you disagree with what these talented people have done - write your own and submit it, maybe you'll be chosen to do the next one.

[Davo]

the score for Batman begins was great. I'm reading a lot of Zimmer haters and not musicians of any kind.

[Kaivai]

I think the themes of both films fit their respective films, it's been a while since ive watched either of burtons efforts but the score was fantastic, it was burton-esque in the fanciful nature of it, realistic but not? I think begins shows what a force batman could be as the rhythm builds up quietly, take a listen to the music from the trailer and that two note cue when the dark knight logo appears, like a triumph call in procession, just bloody good

[Patrick Henry]

I really enjoyed BB's score. I can see why some people didn't like it though.

But really, you need to consider that the Nolan Batman is much more different than Burton's Batman. Burton/Elfman is a flashy, special effects loving extravaganza. The music fits those movies perfectly with its booming exciting score.

But Nolan/Zimmer/Howard is just what they want this movie to be. It's quiet, subdued, and eventually building up overtime. When batman becomes who he truly is, we'll probably get an exciting moving score ala Elfman, but until then we are still seeing batman turn into what he truly needs to be. The score they are making accurately reflects growing over time.

It's all about style. I personally think that the Burton movies look great, but fall flat after that. BB balanced realism and dark story, and was PERFECT. The score complimented it.

Seeing trailers for Dark Knight, I don't see as dark a gotham I want (slightly darker, it looks like regular chicago.) but I'm not going to judge it yet. I have alot of faith from the first movie.

Summary: Apples to Oranges. If you like one movie over the other, you probably like one score over the other.

[what]

It's pretty evident that everyone complaining about the Begins score has no musical taste or theory background whatsoever.

[Jon]

I always find it weird when people say Batman Begins lacks a recognizable theme. The first criticisms focused a lot on the music and how mediocre it was. Are you kidding me? X-Men had a mediocre score. The Batman Begins score was subtle (sorry it's not in-your-face melodic) but it certainly had some incredibly themes in it. It's just a different style from the Elfman stuff. Elfman has long been one of my favorite composers and Hans Zimmer has certainly done a lot of generic stuff but even through all that, I found myself blown away by the Batman Begins score. It just takes a few listens for the themes to come out more clearly, just like I felt for Elfman's Spider-man score.

It's the difference between a lot of mainstream and indie music - a lot of mainstream music has effortlessly easy melodic hooks which is why they get on the radio in the first place but also why you potentially tire of them more easily whereas some of the indie stuff takes a few listens to reveal itself - but once it does, it's great stuff and you can listen to it more. Or at least that's how I always felt. That's not a rule but that tends to be the case more often than not for me.

Elfman's score for Batman was great but so is Zimmer's/Newton Howard's. And Elfman's music certainly wouldn't suit Nolan's visions of the films.

[byte19]

wow... the ppl who complain about Han, his cohorts, or anybody that ain't Elfman or Williams don't (look) or sound like musicians let alone know what music is.

oh, and if a score sucks for a movie.... Iron Man is the worst film ever!! look at that crap make 510 ml overseas!!!

[Roger G. Vales]

From an old John Williams fan, I was initially disappointed with the BB soundtrack, expecting a rousing score a la Superman. Only later did I come to appreciate BB in its subtle mood swings mirroring the complexities of Batman/Bruce Wayne's character. Hats of to both composers.

[Arman Yahyai]

Hello.

Didn't you guys ask Zimmer/Howard about the track names. In the Batman Begins soundtrack there were tracks named after bat species in Latin. Will it be the same in The Dark Knight soundtrack?

[mike]

i didnt think batman begins was that great, the music was pertially to blame, and i dont really like what zimmer is saying about taking away the romance of the character, the fanatasy. these movies thrive on fantasy, thats part of the fun. thats why i will always love tim burtons 2 films more. i want batman to have a cool theme, thats just something i always liked.

[Jay]

"Elfman's themes were bombastic and perfect for the dark mood of Burton's Batman films."

So...do you read your own posts before you click the "Post" button? Check your brain before you open your mouth, buddy. Zimmer and Howard aren't scoring a flimsy Burton film. I feel sorry for those of you who think this score, and the one for "Batman Begins", are trite and boring, because you obviously haven't developed the ability to listen to anything but the most obvious and blatant music that beats you over the head with shameless simplicity. But, whatever, whine if you like. We'll be too busy listening to this new score to care.

[Reggie Yamanaka]

I'm not a musician. But I do try to appreciate any art. I can try to understand what Zimmer and Howard are saying by their music implies information...and without reading this article I got that. I don't know what's the big deal? I think it takes more artistic and psychological skill to be subtle. The BB and DK composers seem to be selfless in letting the movie, characters, and story be enhanced and not overshadowed by the music. I get what they mean by inferring too muc h information from mainstream sounds; for that I really appreciate the movie as a whole because it all works together in a more synergistic fashion. It allows it to change shape and provoke thought as time passes whereas Spider-Man and Batman Returns have a definite shape. I like all the series, but I like Nolan's recipe for cinematic storytelling the best. It's not just a classic, it's epic and more earnest than the rest.

[The King of America]

Someone forgot to write a score.

[Mark Bartoszek]

Some of you people are so pathetic in praising Elfman's score. It was painfully shallow and just revolved around that single Batman theme. What Zimmer and Howard have created is a score that explores each of the character's psyche, from Batman/Bruce Wayne to the Joker and Harvey Dent. When it kicks in to a recognizable theme, it feels appropriate and never tries to sell itself out as a one-note wonder like most of Elfman's superhero themes *cough* Spider-Man *cough*.

[Whoah]

2 notes over and over again man how did they come up with that? Amazing.

[PHOENIX5]

Elfman's theme was "bombastic" for its time, but ultimately it is shallow and all-hype-little-substance, just like the Tim Burton Batman movies. Elfman's theme is a "superhero" fanfare theme, but that's not really what Batman is all about. He's not your typical "superhero". It's a complex, brooding man in a bat suit attempting to carry out vigilante justice. A superhero fanfare theme is completely inappropriate for this character. He is not Superman. Zimmer's new Batman music fits much more appropriately with the Batman character. Instead of beating you over the head with a "Here comes the superhero" message like Elfman's theme, Zimmer's more understated, brooding, simmering, building theme really captures the underlying emotion and essence of the Batman character.

[Phoenix5]

"2 notes over and over again man how did they come up with that? Amazing."

Sometimes, less is more.

[Sean]

The different composers and their music must be judged within the context of their respective films' style. No batman film fits comfortably within the superhero genre, as their composers recognized.
Elfman wrote for a Batman of larger mythological proportions. Zimmer and Howard's Batman is grounded in reality. He is a heroic figure but of a modern world which required modern music.
Elfman's fantastical, Wagnerian score was perfectly suited for Burton's zany gotham. Nolan's gritty real world is further defined and its tone set by the rythmic, pounding music.
Both scores would be wildly out of place if they were swapped.
Elfman's music should not be denigrated as kid's stuff or too simple. Not only is it more complex, but its written to fit the style of the film. His Spiderman music is less melodic, which is in line with the Batman Begins motifs. These characters are not fully rendered so they aren't ready for full-fledged superhero fanfares.
On a side note, Elliot Goldenthal's work on the middle 2 Batman's was also perfectly suited for their neon lighted ridiculousness.

[Jordan]

Oh Will The Burton and Nolan Wars Never End? Personally I Loved The Dark Knight's Score But I also loved Batman Returns Score as well which despite many others have said didn't bash you over the head with one theme but rather put it's tragicness right out on the table instead of opting for subtlety.
So Fight over who's work on the score is more bland or who's is more Obvious I along with a few other people will have a special place For BOTH of them
also on a side note commenting on a side note: The Middle Two Batman movies shouldn't be talked about when it comes to which batman soundtrack is good or not in fact anything relating to a good batman movie
I will never A Batman movie that has Batnipples,A BatCredit Card or Wacky Sound Effects.

[Rena]

You can't compare Elfman's music to Hans Zimmers. Hans Zimmer can take a good movie and make it a great one by adding his style. The movies Batman Begins and The Dark Knight would not be the same if you used Elfman's style of music. Can you honestly say that the Tim Burton movies are better than Chris Nolans? I don't think so, not for a minute. Perhaps Burton's movies would have been better if Hans Zimmer wrote the music for him, not Elfman. Burton's versions were dull and boring most of the time. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but The Dark Knight (and Batman Begins) is above and beyond anything that Burton has done.

[Ben Cepeda]

Tim Burton's films were alright. That was his interpretation of it. Elfman is good at doing grand, fanfare-like superhero themes. Spidey's score is alright. Its perfect. He swings around anytime, everyone likes him.

Nolan's films are better. They make Batman more epic and look more like an existing story. Batman isn't a superhero. "I'm Not A Hero" quote, and title in The Dark Knight soundtrack. He isn't one, he left Ra's al Ghul to die. He takes the law into his own hands. He doesn't run straight into a battle like spidey. He uses intimidation and deception. Just like the music, there isn't a superhero theme because he isn't on in front of the camera all the time. There are cues, they jump in and they hide in the shadows causing suspense. This kind of element was not shown in the tim burton films. Bb and TDK are similar soundtracks with super charged themes from Bb and new ones. The one theme I wish they could put on the track is the one in Bb where he uses the bats to escape Arkham. It also appears in the credits of both movies. In The Dark Knight soundtrack it shows only 34 seconds of it. Batman has a rule to be noctunal. He doesn't fight crime in broad day light like this example....cough....Batman Returns.... cough cough, clown scene.... cough, cough...meets selina kyle.... cough cough.

Tim Burton's batman wasn't as stealthy as this one. He wasn't as cautious.

Christopher Nolan shows us the true dark knight.