Subway to the sea: Worth a half cent sales tax hike?

Would you pay an extra half cent in sales tax to fund the subway to the sea? That seems to have been the hot topic of discussion at "It's Time to Move L.A.!" the mass transit funding conference held Thursday. Steve Hymon of the L.A. Times reports that several key politicians -- including Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and county Supervisors Yvonne B. Burke and Zev Yaroslavsky -- said they may support raising our county's sales tax rate to 8.75%.

While the subway to the sea idea to extend the subway down Wilshire Boulevard has widespread support, the project -- expected to cost $7 billion according to Villaraigosa or $5 billion according to Metro -- isn't funded. As Hymon reports, federal funding isn't likely to meet the demands, because $1.2 billion is the biggest award the federal government has given for a single mass transit project. State funding is unlikely too, considering that we already have a budget gap of $14 billion.

Thus, the sales tax hike idea. The Daily News estimates that an extra half cent tax could generate $4.5 billion within 6 1/2 years. (via LAist). However, that money would go not just to the subway project, but also a number of other transportation projects in L.A. County -- so the subway to the sea would still need to find other funding too.

To get a sales tax increase passed, the 13-member Metro board needs to first vote to put it on the ballot. Then, the measure needs to be approved by two-thirds of the voters. Metro did conduct a recent poll that showed more than two out of three voters would indeed support a tax increase -- but that poll seems to have emphasized freeway expansion more than subway funding.

What do you think? Is an extra half cent sales tax worth your getting from downtown L.A. to the Santa Monica beach in 35 minutes?

Update: Here's the vote tally!

Top photo by Cathy Cole via Flickr; bottom image courtesy of Metro

Comments

[Andrew]

I don't live downtown.Why should we have to pay(again) for something i can't use? Put the trollies back in and i might consider it.

[LG]

Great News! Yes, everyone will benefit from the "subway to the sea". a tax hike is just fine.

[Mike]

Nope, I dont live anywhere near where it will be built and it will never come close to whatever budget numbers they are throwing around. Expect it to cost at leat twice and probably three times the cost that they quote when the election comes around. Besides, 8.75% is ridiculous. Part of my family lives in TN and the sales tax rate there is 9.25%, but they have no state income tax either. I refuse to vote myself further into the poor house for something that won't be done right no matter how much money the pols can get their hands on.

[Joshua Reyes]

What many people don't realize is that it is better to pay for it NOW than to pay for it in 10 years at a cost of probably $20 BILLION!
Besides, the regional impact WILL be tremendous. Look what has happened to Wilshire Blvd. already!

Things aren't going to get any cheaper.......period.

[overtaxed]

no way. If it runs through the cities of the Westside, let them pay for it. It doesn't benefit the other 95% of L.A. County residents, so why tax them?

And furthermore, if they did use a tax increase to build a subway, what would they do with the money once it's built? See, they won't talk about that, because the permanent tax increase is the goal, not the subway.

[m]

As it stands right now, between federal taxes, states taxes, taxes on my savings and sales tax, about 40% of my salary disappears every year to taxes in various forms. How are people using our (my) money so inefficiently? People always make a point about high taxation in Europe, but somehow they seem to end up with a decent public transportation system, health care and better education with an effective tax rate that is about the same as what I end up paying here in the U.S. and I have to pay for my health care myself and ride on a train that has a daily cost that is now higher than what I would pay to drive to work. What is wrong here? I am for the "subway to the sea" as I normally ride the train to work, but I'm not when it includes a sales tax increase to 8.75%. I'll just stay away from Santa Monica, as I always do, for that tax rate.

To say the least, I don't have much confidence that a)that extra sales tax increase will really go towards the project considering past experiences with money not going to public transportation and b)it will really cost the amount of money they are estimating. I'd feel more confident in my money going where it should be going if I wrote a check myself and handed to someone as their paycheck after working on the project all day or going out and buying the materials they needed myself.

[alejandrom]

Umm.. thanks LA for screwing the South Bay again. Valley? Orange line. Hollywood? Red. Long Beach? Blue. Pasadena and Boyle Heights? Gold. Central city and Westside - the Red, Subway to the Sea, Green line AND the Expo line. Downtown? All of them. The South Bay gets the worst air pollution in the nation with high rates of asthma and lung cancer thanks to our killer Port and trucks. Cough, cough. Thanks for nothing. A subway to the sea I pay for everyday and use maybe every three years. No thanks. A Port that actually cleans-up instead of talking about it as a compromise? Now you have my attention.

|No |I wouldn't. Sales taxes hurt the poor the most and are the worst
forms of taxes. I think a sales tax increase would be the worst way
to fund a new subway. I am really opposed to any sales tax increased.
Instead tax large propetry owners and modify Proposition 13, exempting
retired people and low income from any tax increased on property.

[James Bean]

In a word, YES, and well worth it.

[Mike Cagliano]

Absolutely. This city needs every subway we can get. They have been a huge success and taking the folks from the inner city to the beach will make their lives happier and they certainly deserve that.

[adoptivefather]

They need to think this over! Why not raise the tax to 100% raise the money much faster. Everybody knows they have more money than they need now anyway.

Taxes are too low!! The state has only increased revenues from 60 billion to 100 billion between 1998 and last year. These state can't possibly survive at that rate of increase. Isn't everyone's income climbing much faster than that?

Raise TAXES NOW!!

(just kidding)

[Ed C.]

As someone who regularly uses the Metro system to go to work and also do not favor high taxes, I would prefer the sales tax hike... PLUS congestion pricing in the corridors to be served by the subway extensions. Most LA County residents work in LA County and the traffic relief is well worth the tax hike and congestion pricing.

Pay now, or pay much more later.

[richard schumacher]

Apparently a few more years of worsening congestion and air pollution and rising gasoline prices will be required before the anti-tax sentiment is overcome. But it will happen. Istanbul will soon have a better rail transit system than does LA. This is embarrassing, bad for business, and bad for our quality of life.

[Laura]

Even if you don't think you'll be using Subway to the Sea in the immediate future, its environmental benefits will be huge. Imagine getting all those Westside, Downtown, Valley, Pasadena (etc.) commuters off the road, not to mention weekend beachgoers. Cleaner air? The price is well worth it.

[brad]

The green line goes not go downtown (goes east/west to Norwalk) and it is in the south bay (depending on your geographical definition - it has stations in North Redondo, El Segundo, Hawthorne, etc.). Also the Blue line goes from Long Beach to downtown - since you mention the ports then Long Beach is included in your South Bay definition. So the South Bay is really pretty well served. However, if the green line were extended to go by LAX, down to LB and up Lincoln to SaMo, connecting to the Wilshire subway and the Expo line (maybe even construct a La Cienega line in the next 50 years) then we would be getting somewhere.

[manu]

Then you all must be in favor of the war in Iraq since you are paying taxes for that…

If the tax is going to be increased we need to make sure that it’s only used for public transportation and NOT FREEWAYS. And make it against the law for it to be used for other purposes. Because this is what is being happening with the current sales tax increase from the 80’s.

Furthermore, only because you don’t travel from Downtown to the Westside does not mean that you will not be affected. If you use the 405, 101, 170, 10, 105, 110 freeways plus any east west streets from as far south as the ten fwy and north to Ventura you will see a great decrease in traffic. While downtown is like the heart of L.A. and the Westside can be its brain, Wilshire blvd is a vain the keeps both pumping. And great part of Angelinos work in these areas plus along the Wilshire corridor. Even if most of you won’t use the subway you will see a great decrease in traffic along the freeway or street you currently sit at.

I say increase the tax by 0.75 so that we can have a train along the 405 too.

[m]

.... some of you seem to be missing the little detail that the question is not "would you like the subway to the sea", but "would you pay for the subway to the sea with a sale tax increase" (that goes on forever and ever, even after the subway is built and the tax is not completely reserved for the subway).

Richard and Laura, based on your concerns, why are we not then taking all of our already reserved transportation money possible and pouring into public transportation and a strong bicycle infrastructure? That would better address your issues. Why don't we raise the gasoline prices with a tax and have all of that automatically go into public transportation development? That would inflate gas prices to encourage ppl onto public transportation as well. The state is already getting tons of transportation $$, they just keep on using it for freeways. What about the ppl that take weekly or monthly plane trips. Should we tax them in some way for excessive pollution after x number of flights in a 12 month period? As crappy as driving may be for the environment, it is still better than flying.

There are reasons people don't use the public transportation system now, and it's not only because the trains/buses don't go where people want to go. 3 of my coworkers live on the same street or a street near mine, the subway is close by our homes and the gold line is near our work and no one but me takes the train to work. Why? It takes too long. (about 3-4 times as long to use public transportation as it does to drive)

The other reasons need to be addressed too. Creating a new sales tax that only partially funds public transportation is not going to fix those things and it's not going to change ppls transportation behavior. Just placing a new subway at a certain location isn't going to automatically fix all of the issues people think it will. Traffic isn't much better in the SF Valley after the Orange Line opened despite higher than projected ridership numbers (and it's no wonder why when houses keep getting torn down and replaced with higher density housing). For someone to get from the west end of the SF Valley to Santa Monica using public transportation is still going to take 2 hours whether you use the subway or the bus. You still can spend 20 min waiting for a bus or train even if you time everything perfectly and there are no mechanical issues. Transportation still stops running ridiculously early in the evening, even on the weekends. If we need to get more money for things, it seems like you would want to get it from the ppl whose behavior needs to change.

[Left LA becuse of the tax rate!!!]

Taxes, taxes and more taxes... Now that they have completed some subway projects, why haven't they rolled-back the sales tax rate? Sounds like a shell game and the result is that interstate purchases will be going up and tax revenues will be falling. The "revenue" which may come in will probably pay for the shiney new buses or offset the high cost of fuel. Why not use the old rail line running down Santa Monica Blvd as a monorail system? It can be built above ground, you don't have to worry about gas pockets (have we forgotten that Richfield, Gilmore and Hancock used to drill for petroleum and gas in this area?), potential environmental headaches and mitigate the degree of cost and schedule overruns? One thing is certain, if Sen. Stephen White was alive today, he'd be pushing for a rail system for cargo from San Pedro and Charles Crocker would be running the rail line from Los Angeles to Santa Monica, at no charge to the taxpayer!!!

[Ray]

Congestion pricing for all those who clog the freeways along existing rail transit lines. No more FREEWAY for those headed into downtown via the San Bernardino, Long Beach, Hollywood, Pasadena, Golden State Freeways... its time for tolls. And the folks who drive into downtown from the Westside using side-streets, they should pay too. The Red Line is there for them to use. Get on the train people. Use the proceeds to build more lines, add more Metrolink and Metro capacity Raise parking taxes in transit friendly areas (enough with the $1 and $2 parking structures!). Tax the USERS who refuse to use mass transit. Eight dollars to drive into NYC plus $15-$25 a day to park vs. three for the bus or two for the subway each way. Do the math.

[Bill C.]

Ray, I hope you get elected to some governmental office (Councilman or Supervisor) and then appointed to the MTA Board. You have some excellent ideas that will generate enough money alone for mass transit projects.

[Hugh Jorgan]

Just one thing to say to all of you that want to raise taxes (tolls ARE taxes) - YOU FIRST! Think it's cheaper to ride public transportation? Let's eliminate the public transportation subsidies, then determine the true cost of riding the train or the bus. Without the subsidies, no one in LA would ride the bus or the train.

[Hat]

Hugh,

What about all the subsidies that drivers get? I'm talking about all the FREEways in Los Angeles. Where do you think the money for that comes from? How many people would drive if we eliminated those subsidies and they had to pay a few dollars each way in tolls?

[al]

great. give south central crime a direct path to the west side where all the money is. bye bye safety.

[richard schumacher]

m, if you care to make some specific funding proposals we could discuss them. A sales tax is the least regressive funding mechanism that has a chance of enactment in the near future and actually provide enough money. Luxury taxes would not. Other measures will have to happen eventually: rescinding Prop 13, tolls on many highways, congestion pricing for HOV lanes. And, honestly folks, freeways here do suck and need some judicious upgrades. Transit-only funding plans are not gonna fly.

Your arguments above mostly amount to personal anecdote: "the existing subway and gold line don't work for me and a few friends, so obviously all rail transit is worthless". And, "bicycle infrastructure"? It is to laugh. Let the hungry eat tofu, eh.

[Steven]

I think a tax to pay for a subway in Los Angeles is a great idea. We all need to realize that we do not live in a small city. Big cities have a real mass transit system and Wilshire is the only logical place for a subway. The benefits for the county would be huge in terms of air quality, jobs, etc.

As for increased crime from a subway, I think that is nonsensical. There has never been a link established between the placement of mass transit and increased crime in a neighborhood. If anything, the subway would open up access to more jobs for the more impoverished parts of Los Angeles.