Subway to the sea: Worth a half cent sales tax hike?

Would you pay an extra half cent in sales tax to fund the subway to the sea? That seems to have been the hot topic of discussion at "It's Time to Move L.A.!" the mass transit funding conference held Thursday. Steve Hymon of the L.A. Times reports that several key politicians -- including Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa and county Supervisors Yvonne B. Burke and Zev Yaroslavsky -- said they may support raising our county's sales tax rate to 8.75%.

While the subway to the sea idea to extend the subway down Wilshire Boulevard has widespread support, the project -- expected to cost $7 billion according to Villaraigosa or $5 billion according to Metro -- isn't funded. As Hymon reports, federal funding isn't likely to meet the demands, because $1.2 billion is the biggest award the federal government has given for a single mass transit project. State funding is unlikely too, considering that we already have a budget gap of $14 billion.

Thus, the sales tax hike idea. The Daily News estimates that an extra half cent tax could generate $4.5 billion within 6 1/2 years. (via LAist). However, that money would go not just to the subway project, but also a number of other transportation projects in L.A. County -- so the subway to the sea would still need to find other funding too.

To get a sales tax increase passed, the 13-member Metro board needs to first vote to put it on the ballot. Then, the measure needs to be approved by two-thirds of the voters. Metro did conduct a recent poll that showed more than two out of three voters would indeed support a tax increase -- but that poll seems to have emphasized freeway expansion more than subway funding.

What do you think? Is an extra half cent sales tax worth your getting from downtown L.A. to the Santa Monica beach in 35 minutes?

Update: Here's the vote tally!

Top photo by Cathy Cole via Flickr; bottom image courtesy of Metro

Comments

[Andrew]

I don't live downtown.Why should we have to pay(again) for something i can't use? Put the trollies back in and i might consider it.

[LG]

Great News! Yes, everyone will benefit from the "subway to the sea". a tax hike is just fine.

[Mike]

Nope, I dont live anywhere near where it will be built and it will never come close to whatever budget numbers they are throwing around. Expect it to cost at leat twice and probably three times the cost that they quote when the election comes around. Besides, 8.75% is ridiculous. Part of my family lives in TN and the sales tax rate there is 9.25%, but they have no state income tax either. I refuse to vote myself further into the poor house for something that won't be done right no matter how much money the pols can get their hands on.

[Joshua Reyes]

What many people don't realize is that it is better to pay for it NOW than to pay for it in 10 years at a cost of probably $20 BILLION!
Besides, the regional impact WILL be tremendous. Look what has happened to Wilshire Blvd. already!

Things aren't going to get any cheaper.......period.

[overtaxed]

no way. If it runs through the cities of the Westside, let them pay for it. It doesn't benefit the other 95% of L.A. County residents, so why tax them?

And furthermore, if they did use a tax increase to build a subway, what would they do with the money once it's built? See, they won't talk about that, because the permanent tax increase is the goal, not the subway.

[m]

As it stands right now, between federal taxes, states taxes, taxes on my savings and sales tax, about 40% of my salary disappears every year to taxes in various forms. How are people using our (my) money so inefficiently? People always make a point about high taxation in Europe, but somehow they seem to end up with a decent public transportation system, health care and better education with an effective tax rate that is about the same as what I end up paying here in the U.S. and I have to pay for my health care myself and ride on a train that has a daily cost that is now higher than what I would pay to drive to work. What is wrong here? I am for the "subway to the sea" as I normally ride the train to work, but I'm not when it includes a sales tax increase to 8.75%. I'll just stay away from Santa Monica, as I always do, for that tax rate.

To say the least, I don't have much confidence that a)that extra sales tax increase will really go towards the project considering past experiences with money not going to public transportation and b)it will really cost the amount of money they are estimating. I'd feel more confident in my money going where it should be going if I wrote a check myself and handed to someone as their paycheck after working on the project all day or going out and buying the materials they needed myself.

[alejandrom]

Umm.. thanks LA for screwing the South Bay again. Valley? Orange line. Hollywood? Red. Long Beach? Blue. Pasadena and Boyle Heights? Gold. Central city and Westside - the Red, Subway to the Sea, Green line AND the Expo line. Downtown? All of them. The South Bay gets the worst air pollution in the nation with high rates of asthma and lung cancer thanks to our killer Port and trucks. Cough, cough. Thanks for nothing. A subway to the sea I pay for everyday and use maybe every three years. No thanks. A Port that actually cleans-up instead of talking about it as a compromise? Now you have my attention.

|No |I wouldn't. Sales taxes hurt the poor the most and are the worst
forms of taxes. I think a sales tax increase would be the worst way
to fund a new subway. I am really opposed to any sales tax increased.
Instead tax large propetry owners and modify Proposition 13, exempting
retired people and low income from any tax increased on property.

[James Bean]

In a word, YES, and well worth it.

[Mike Cagliano]

Absolutely. This city needs every subway we can get. They have been a huge success and taking the folks from the inner city to the beach will make their lives happier and they certainly deserve that.

[adoptivefather]

They need to think this over! Why not raise the tax to 100% raise the money much faster. Everybody knows they have more money than they need now anyway.

Taxes are too low!! The state has only increased revenues from 60 billion to 100 billion between 1998 and last year. These state can't possibly survive at that rate of increase. Isn't everyone's income climbing much faster than that?

Raise TAXES NOW!!

(just kidding)

[Ed C.]

As someone who regularly uses the Metro system to go to work and also do not favor high taxes, I would prefer the sales tax hike... PLUS congestion pricing in the corridors to be served by the subway extensions. Most LA County residents work in LA County and the traffic relief is well worth the tax hike and congestion pricing.

Pay now, or pay much more later.

[richard schumacher]

Apparently a few more years of worsening congestion and air pollution and rising gasoline prices will be required before the anti-tax sentiment is overcome. But it will happen. Istanbul will soon have a better rail transit system than does LA. This is embarrassing, bad for business, and bad for our quality of life.

[Laura]

Even if you don't think you'll be using Subway to the Sea in the immediate future, its environmental benefits will be huge. Imagine getting all those Westside, Downtown, Valley, Pasadena (etc.) commuters off the road, not to mention weekend beachgoers. Cleaner air? The price is well worth it.

[brad]

The green line goes not go downtown (goes east/west to Norwalk) and it is in the south bay (depending on your geographical definition - it has stations in North Redondo, El Segundo, Hawthorne, etc.). Also the Blue line goes from Long Beach to downtown - since you mention the ports then Long Beach is included in your South Bay definition. So the South Bay is really pretty well served. However, if the green line were extended to go by LAX, down to LB and up Lincoln to SaMo, connecting to the Wilshire subway and the Expo line (maybe even construct a La Cienega line in the next 50 years) then we would be getting somewhere.

[manu]

Then you all must be in favor of the war in Iraq since you are paying taxes for that…

If the tax is going to be increased we need to make sure that it’s only used for public transportation and NOT FREEWAYS. And make it against the law for it to be used for other purposes. Because this is what is being happening with the current sales tax increase from the 80’s.

Furthermore, only because you don’t travel from Downtown to the Westside does not mean that you will not be affected. If you use the 405, 101, 170, 10, 105, 110 freeways plus any east west streets from as far south as the ten fwy and north to Ventura you will see a great decrease in traffic. While downtown is like the heart of L.A. and the Westside can be its brain, Wilshire blvd is a vain the keeps both pumping. And great part of Angelinos work in these areas plus along the Wilshire corridor. Even if most of you won’t use the subway you will see a great decrease in traffic along the freeway or street you currently sit at.

I say increase the tax by 0.75 so that we can have a train along the 405 too.

[m]

.... some of you seem to be missing the little detail that the question is not "would you like the subway to the sea", but "would you pay for the subway to the sea with a sale tax increase" (that goes on forever and ever, even after the subway is built and the tax is not completely reserved for the subway).

Richard and Laura, based on your concerns, why are we not then taking all of our already reserved transportation money possible and pouring into public transportation and a strong bicycle infrastructure? That would better address your issues. Why don't we raise the gasoline prices with a tax and have all of that automatically go into public transportation development? That would inflate gas prices to encourage ppl onto public transportation as well. The state is already getting tons of transportation $$, they just keep on using it for freeways. What about the ppl that take weekly or monthly plane trips. Should we tax them in some way for excessive pollution after x number of flights in a 12 month period? As crappy as driving may be for the environment, it is still better than flying.

There are reasons people don't use the public transportation system now, and it's not only because the trains/buses don't go where people want to go. 3 of my coworkers live on the same street or a street near mine, the subway is close by our homes and the gold line is near our work and no one but me takes the train to work. Why? It takes too long. (about 3-4 times as long to use public transportation as it does to drive)

The other reasons need to be addressed too. Creating a new sales tax that only partially funds public transportation is not going to fix those things and it's not going to change ppls transportation behavior. Just placing a new subway at a certain location isn't going to automatically fix all of the issues people think it will. Traffic isn't much better in the SF Valley after the Orange Line opened despite higher than projected ridership numbers (and it's no wonder why when houses keep getting torn down and replaced with higher density housing). For someone to get from the west end of the SF Valley to Santa Monica using public transportation is still going to take 2 hours whether you use the subway or the bus. You still can spend 20 min waiting for a bus or train even if you time everything perfectly and there are no mechanical issues. Transportation still stops running ridiculously early in the evening, even on the weekends. If we need to get more money for things, it seems like you would want to get it from the ppl whose behavior needs to change.

[Left LA becuse of the tax rate!!!]

Taxes, taxes and more taxes... Now that they have completed some subway projects, why haven't they rolled-back the sales tax rate? Sounds like a shell game and the result is that interstate purchases will be going up and tax revenues will be falling. The "revenue" which may come in will probably pay for the shiney new buses or offset the high cost of fuel. Why not use the old rail line running down Santa Monica Blvd as a monorail system? It can be built above ground, you don't have to worry about gas pockets (have we forgotten that Richfield, Gilmore and Hancock used to drill for petroleum and gas in this area?), potential environmental headaches and mitigate the degree of cost and schedule overruns? One thing is certain, if Sen. Stephen White was alive today, he'd be pushing for a rail system for cargo from San Pedro and Charles Crocker would be running the rail line from Los Angeles to Santa Monica, at no charge to the taxpayer!!!

[Ray]

Congestion pricing for all those who clog the freeways along existing rail transit lines. No more FREEWAY for those headed into downtown via the San Bernardino, Long Beach, Hollywood, Pasadena, Golden State Freeways... its time for tolls. And the folks who drive into downtown from the Westside using side-streets, they should pay too. The Red Line is there for them to use. Get on the train people. Use the proceeds to build more lines, add more Metrolink and Metro capacity Raise parking taxes in transit friendly areas (enough with the $1 and $2 parking structures!). Tax the USERS who refuse to use mass transit. Eight dollars to drive into NYC plus $15-$25 a day to park vs. three for the bus or two for the subway each way. Do the math.

[Bill C.]

Ray, I hope you get elected to some governmental office (Councilman or Supervisor) and then appointed to the MTA Board. You have some excellent ideas that will generate enough money alone for mass transit projects.

[Hugh Jorgan]

Just one thing to say to all of you that want to raise taxes (tolls ARE taxes) - YOU FIRST! Think it's cheaper to ride public transportation? Let's eliminate the public transportation subsidies, then determine the true cost of riding the train or the bus. Without the subsidies, no one in LA would ride the bus or the train.

[Hat]

Hugh,

What about all the subsidies that drivers get? I'm talking about all the FREEways in Los Angeles. Where do you think the money for that comes from? How many people would drive if we eliminated those subsidies and they had to pay a few dollars each way in tolls?

[al]

great. give south central crime a direct path to the west side where all the money is. bye bye safety.

[richard schumacher]

m, if you care to make some specific funding proposals we could discuss them. A sales tax is the least regressive funding mechanism that has a chance of enactment in the near future and actually provide enough money. Luxury taxes would not. Other measures will have to happen eventually: rescinding Prop 13, tolls on many highways, congestion pricing for HOV lanes. And, honestly folks, freeways here do suck and need some judicious upgrades. Transit-only funding plans are not gonna fly.

Your arguments above mostly amount to personal anecdote: "the existing subway and gold line don't work for me and a few friends, so obviously all rail transit is worthless". And, "bicycle infrastructure"? It is to laugh. Let the hungry eat tofu, eh.

[Steven]

I think a tax to pay for a subway in Los Angeles is a great idea. We all need to realize that we do not live in a small city. Big cities have a real mass transit system and Wilshire is the only logical place for a subway. The benefits for the county would be huge in terms of air quality, jobs, etc.

As for increased crime from a subway, I think that is nonsensical. There has never been a link established between the placement of mass transit and increased crime in a neighborhood. If anything, the subway would open up access to more jobs for the more impoverished parts of Los Angeles.

[Hugh Jorgan]

Hat, maybe something should be explained to you. The term "freeway" does not refer to something the average Joe gets to use at no charge. It is a misnomer for Limited Access Highway, that is "free" of cross traffic.

Gasoline taxes, and vehicle registration are a couple of user fees dedicated to highway upkeep and construction. Don't want to pay the user fee - don't drive a car. A sales tax to pay for a subway means that when you dine out, buy a new computer, or even rent a car, you will be subsidizing the subway.

The real difference is that the highways are used by all - commercial, government, and private - and everyone that uses the highway pays. A subway is not going to be used to move your new PC from the port to Frys Electronics, but you'll pay a Subway Tax just the same.

A better way to finance the subway is to let a private company build it, operate it, and charge a fare for using it. Look at the toll roads in OC; tolls keep rising, but the lanes are filled because the users get what they want - and the lanes were not built using tax payer money (though the State finally did buy the lanes).

[ZT]

I don't live downtown, but up in Los Feliz and I skirt Santa Monica whenever possible because the 10 is awful on weekdays AND weekends. One hour, two hours, sometimes more. Getting there reliably in 35 minutes during traffic time would basically put Santa Monica back on my list and welcome back!

[Paul]

Here's an idea: tax the commuters who drive instead of taking public transportation. Install electronic tolling on the freeways, charge a fee for maintenance and upgrades to the freeways and throw a tax on top of that to build the subways. Not only will the added cost of driving on the freeway encourage people to car pool or take public transportation, but it also spares/rewards those who are currently taking public transportation.

Just please, don't let some private company take over the tolling operation and shave/gouge their share of the income off the top. We taxpayers paid to build the freeyways and pay to maintain them, so why should some private company benefit?

[Stuart KD]

Yes, raise the tax and build the subway-to-the sea, build a light rail on the Orange line to Woodland Hills/Topanga Canyon and extend the Gold Line to Pomona. Then roll back the tax. Why not put a time-limit on the tax increase. Two, three, four years maximum then roll it back. Take the money from the tax and put it into a transportation fund. Don't use it for anything else. I think most Los Angeles residents will agree, we need a comprehensive rail system in the city. But don't keep taxing us ad infinitum. Take what you need and thats it. If the city and the mayor proposes a limited-time tax increase, most of us will vote for it.

[sheila]

how about a tax on cheap, polluting, long-distance, unsustainable and/or sweatshop goods only? fair trade, organic local goods exempt! also a tiered property tax, automobile tax and utility system where over-consumers, gas-guzzlers and mcmansions subsidize programs like the subway as an offset to their dreadful environmental practices?

people need to change their thinking and behavior, so making polluting expensive, and calling attention to it via specific taxes will pay for a subway AND make people either think twice before behaving unsustainably, or at least make them pay for something beneficial.

win/win.

[Saul]

Some of you can be so selfish why should i pay a extra .5 sales tax if i won't use the metro blah blah. Well Rot in your car in bumper to bumper traffic.

[Matt]

It is very sad to see how myopic the citizens of Los Angeles still can be. Public transportation is going to be an absolute necessity, not a luxury, in the coming century. As much as Los Angeles was founded on the suburban American dream, that city no longer exists, and what stands in its place is a vibrant multi-cultural metropolis. But the quality of life will continue to deteriorate as the traffic continues to increase. If anything this board shows that people (and specifically Angelenos) can be so self-centered that if they cannot see the direct benefit, they feel its not their problem. I only hope that the mayor and the County Board of Supervisors have the backbone to do what is right for the future of our city.

[Bill C.]

From Hugh Jorgan:

"Think it's cheaper to ride public transportation? Let's eliminate the public transportation subsidies, then determine the true cost of riding the train or the bus. Without the subsidies, no one in LA would ride the bus or the train."
..........
"A better way to finance the subway is to let a private company build it, operate it, and charge a fare for using it. "

From my understanding of Jorgan's posts, if a private company builds and operates the subway without the sales tax subsidy, then the higher non-subsidized fares will now deter people from taking public transportation. Well then...wouldn't this defeat the purpose of having the subway in the first place? Or is Jorgan an expert at subway construction and knows that a private company can build the subway at half the cost of a public authority and fares would actually be near where they are now even without the sales tax subsidy. I highly doubt this, so lets not build the subway and have everyone traumatize Jorgan further by being single occupant car drivers clogging up the streets and freeways further lengthening his commute and polluting the precious air that he apparently doesn't value over paying a higher sales tax or toll for.

Manu, thanks for the insightful post about the other benefits a subway may generate for those who will never ride the subway but will drive the less congested streets and freeways.

[Jeff]

It's really tiring to see people say "why pay for something I won't use?" and "why more taxes." This city has no choice but expand public transport. We will be gridlocked with traffic in a matter of a few short years.

Does everyone understand that our economy runs (allowing you to collect a paycheck) because people of all incomes spend money? And these people must be able to get to their jobs, get to the stores, and generally get around town to earn and spend money. We live in a COMMUNITY. Not everything we do or spend can be for ourselves.

Were you ever sent a bill for the street in front of your home, or for the police that make you safe? No? Exactly. This is what taxes are for.

And why would upper middle class and rich people pay more taxes for something they won't use than those who will use it? Because the very reason most of them have more money is that they have benefited from a community who buys their products or services. Again, to do so, we must allow people to get around.

Personally, I would prefer income and capital gains taxes to be raised on people like myself, rather than a regressive sales tax that disproportionately affects lower income citizens. But because there's no chance that would ever happen, I fully support this sales tax for something I will never use.

[Sal B]

NO subways anywhere near me, because I live in a poor area [Maywood]. Only the well-off areas get subways, why tax *all of us* to pay for goodies that only benefit the well-off? 8.25% is too much as it is.

Let the RIDERS pay for the "subway to the sea."

[JGW]

Maybe the pro- and anti-tax camps could agree to a sales tax increase that is guaranteed to sunset in 6 or 7 years, after it's brought in enough cash to build the subway extension?

[David in Los Angeles]

YES to the sales tax increase, but make it TEMPORARY - ten years MAX. Orange County did it (Measure M) and it raise tons of $$. Build the subway to the sea, Aqua line to Culver City & Santa Monica, Green Line to LAX, Orange Line to Woodland Hills, extend the Gold Line each way, a new line to connect the Valley to the Westside, LAX, South Bay, and Long Beach, etc etc.

London, Paris, New York, Tokyo, even Mexico City all have SYSTEMS, not the pathetic three or four lines we have, that in the case of the Green Line, go from no where to no where (sorry Norwalk and Manhattan Beach). The fact that the Purple Line ends at Western is a JOKE. Thank you Henry Waxman. Imagine if the Santa Monica Frwy just "ended" at Western. Same thing, only worse, because at least in a car you can navigate surface streets.

We need something VISIONARY a la the proposal at www.getLAmoving.com. You think traffic is bad now?? IMAGINE TWENTY YEARS FROM NOW WE WE CONTINUE AT THIS SNAIL'S PACE OF CONSTRUCTION.

[CarrieCann]

I use MTA daily. I ride the Red Line to NoHo to pick up my grandson. I live three miles from where I work, so I ride the bus (after having spent $75 a month just to park my car at work, PLUS paying for gas). When gas hit $3 a gallon, I sold both my cars, and haven't looked back. I totally welcome the city's finally acknowledging that we need this subway to Santa Monica.

[Dmitriy]

I am anti tax on this. I and many other people will never use it. City is way to big and unless they run hundreds of subway around la, it will never get close enough to any place that i can either catch a 10 min bush ride or walk. As result i do not see why citizens of Los Angeles and other surrounding areas, should be paying this tax.

[markl]

YES....but if theyre really serious about a subway,one that would have much more benefit would be a subway/ lightrail that parallels the 405...doing a 405 subway would benefit every traffic artery and major freeway in LA.And if they cant figure out where to put it they could place it right on the damn 405!It would be cheaper to construct and could be in operation quite fast that way.Also drivers could see what a waste driving is as the train whizzes by them.Its time to give cars the 'back seat'...
Stop expanding freeways.More freeway lanes means accomadating more traffic...More lanes begets more traffic NOT LESS.
YES TO SUBWAY/LIGHTRAIL.YES TO A TAX INCREASE.
The tax that comes without a tax increase for subways is worse traffic and more time wasted in ever increasing traffic jams.

[Joshua Komanapalli]

Why not try taxing automobile commuters for entering that area where they want to build a subway? I travel to London often and pay $16 A DAY to drive in London. I think that would definately MAKE people drive less and use the subway, and if people can afford to drive then they should.

I also know that unless a decent subway is built for ALL areas of LA a congestion charge like that shouldn't be paid.

I recomment the having a congestion charge at around $1 a day per car and $2 for a heavier vehicle so that the funding can be built. Eventually I think we would get used to that expense (like we do our HIGH GAS PRICES that increase, when i first immigrated to America, gas was $1.25, now a whopping $3.00/Gl).

The congestion charge can increase ONCE the whole subway system is done for ALL of the area that gets charged for congetion.

I used to drive to BH for work, and I think i can honestly say i could afford $25 a month charge for congestion so the money can build up for a MASS transit system.

I really hope that they build an underground metro for the Los Angeles Area! And please don't increase the tax, God knows you wont decrease it once the funding is over.

[ellen]

I would absolutely support this. On so many levels, we need viable public transport.

[Are you kidding]

This is another boondoggle. A few loud do gooders wanting to feel good about their lives. Tax tax tax is the solution for their pet projects They complain about how the so called free---ways are built. Ever heard of the gasoline tax? The same tax the politico dregs have siphoned off by the billions to pay for non transportation projects?

It will never end with you folks. If you really want to save this land...this land with limited resources...like water...control the population!

We have millions of people who don't carry there weight..Many from foreign lands that are here illegally. They suck up much of the money for your rail lines projects. As long as we have a ever increasing flow of these people and their spawn, you will NEVER be able to keep up...no matter HOW much taxes you steal from the working people and so called wealthy.

The taxes for these projects are seldom spent where they are supposed to be. They are seldom if ever rolled back.

This is going to be any different? LOL

[Nel Ivancich]

Since I live out of the L.A. area I wouldn't be a frequent user of the Subway-to-the-Sea. Yet, I'd happily give a half a cent per dollar to fund a project which will relieve the stasis which we erroneously call "traffic." I'd like to see another subway arm going to San Pedro at the Los Angeles harbor.

[Leon Kofman]

The problem is that MTA is thinking too big. Instead of building these grandiose plans and requesting $10 billion, they need to come up with short term plan, like they do in other countries in Europe. If they can get 1.2 billion from Federal Government, then how many stations will that build? Even if that mean expanding the subway to Fairfax, or La Sieniga, then start working on it, keep opening one station at the time, and while you do, ask for future funding.

This way the people in the region will feel immediate impact and will not be so reluctant to approve future funding. Otherwise this will turn into another 15 year project, that will never finish.

[cameron]

I live downtown, and frankly, I would LOVE to use the subway to the sea. It wouldn't work for everything, but it would put things like going to The Grove and hitting other points westward far simpler. I'd be more than happy to walk a few extra blocks if it meant that I could avoid the often maddening gridlock we experience every day. Los Angeles must have effective and egalitarian public transportation system, because the traffic is only going to get worse.

[Are you kidding]

How many of you people have even been to the cities that you brag about their mass transit? Most are a fraction of the size of the SVF alone! There is NO WAY an effective railway system can be built her in LA unless you tear her down and rebuild her..

Once you get one block out each way of downtown or any end destination then what happens? Bus after bus after bus? People walking blocks and blocks? Yeah that will work here. Besides, if it ever gets built, how many riders will be able to pay the fare that actually sustains the railway? Few...SO......More subsidies...more taxes.... Typical...But you know, the well is running dry. the politicos have gone to it far to often rather than addressing the REAL root causes of our problems

Again, this town is not set up like the others...NEVER will be IMO. Sure the big boys are pushing the rail line. You know why? They (and foreign investors) are buying up the older buildings downtown and want to replace them with high rise offices, condos and apartments.

The same do gooders who claim they are looking out for the poor, the illegal's ..what not...will sell them down the drain in a second for this new development. Then what will happen to the displaced millions whom you claim to be so compassionate about?

I laugh when someone posted that this $15 billion boondoggle will allow the poor to be able to get to the beach because they deserve it. WHAT?

Until you solve the over population of this area, everything else is just a pipe dream. There will NEVER, EVER be enough money because too many people are on the low rung eating up financial resources

[Are you kidding me]

"Because the very reason most of them have more money is that they have benefited from a community who buys their products or services"

Are you kidding me? I have some extra dollars because I WORKED my way through college and I work hard at my job. There are millions of us out there. For you to insinuate that somehow I and millions of other HARD working people in LA are making it off the backs of the less fortunate..Well I cannot post on here what I really want to say. Unreal

[angelina]

To state the obvious, the expansion of the subway system to transect West LA would reap phenomenal benefits economically, environmentally and societally, in the long run. You don't have to be an urban planner to figure that out. I don't live in the area anymore, but I would be more than happy to accept a tiny sales tax increase to provide an opportunity to improve one of the most integral parts of Southern California. In Los Angeles, the is a huge issue about parking and traffic, obviously, and turning Olympic and Pico into one-ways just isn't going to cut it. One of the solutions would be to minimize dependence on cars, and this subway system is already doing that in east Los Angeles. I have seen it and dealt it. It CAN work in west LA, even if it lis ess dense than its eastern counterpart.

The nay-sayers are driving down society's morale and letting the city keep its bad habits. Yes, it would take many years to build this Subway to the Sea and yes, you may or may not live to see it work to its full potential. This is probably why you also feel it's okay to be wasteful with energy and resources -- because you won't live long enough to truly suffer from it personally. Well if there is a hell, that's where you're headed and I hope you enjoy the subway-free, gridlocked shi*fest.

[J from Pasadena]

I'd rather fall from the sky in a monorail than be buried underground in a subway. And that is exactly what will happen if you examine the history of MTA subway construction in Los Angeles. Cost overruns. Poor budgeting. Construction errors. Shoddy planning. All in earthquake land. The Red Line is a death trap in my estimation since I remember the concrete walls were poured so thin they had to be reinforced with steel plates -- a tidbit that was discovered after the fact. It was the West Coast Big Dig when it was built so why would we let the MTA make this mammoth mistake again? That would be the true definition of stupity.

A real (and much lower cost) alternative would be a monorail over the skies of Los Angeles. Plus it would be I believe the only major U.S.city to have such a mass transit system so it would be an instant tourist attraction. Anyway, I'm sure this idea won't be explored since the MTA doesn't like to use good ideas as they would rather overspend, create self-fulfilling bureaucracies, kowtow to the energy and other special interests and just do a bad job in general. (Why did the green line never get built to LAX? Why did the Metrolink trains use more fuel than the commuter cars they intended to replace? Exactly. Get real LA!!!)

[Jay]

This sales tax will kill us all! How can we ever expect to pay such a hefty fine on our lives to benefit the future development of this overpopulated wasteland? There's got to be a way to do it -- but whatever it is, any proposal will have some negative side to it so instead we should just abandon the idea altogether until God himself comes down and installs a comprehensive mass transit system and bypasses any of the aches, pains or monetary costs that has to be shouldered by us poor saps. I say, scrap this idea entirely and flood the streets with gasoline so that we don't have to waste time going to the pumps to fill up. This will save a small percentage of oil since there is oil wasted on actually going TO the gas station. Now there would be gas stations everywhere.
But this subway idea. So incredibly absurd! Mass transit? This city needs more cars and more roads. In fact everyone should have to contribute 25% of his/her property to freeway construction so that we can have a more efficient personal transportation infastructure. Subway to the sea? What, do the fish have to go to work? Kill this project before the pollution kills you!

[Charles Xaiver]

subway to the sea? i dont work in the ocean!

[George]

Every used to say that New Yorkers were rude and just ignorant. Not true at all....Los Angeles residents are number ONE in this catagory. A limited time for this tax is what is essential. Look at what you have all done....you let landlords raise rents so rediculously....$3000 to live in Hollywood, West Hollywood. This is rediculous. The Globes cancelled due to writers asking for more money. When does all this end ? Entertainers in all facets the industry are clearly way way overpaid as are sports stars....Absolutely no need for this.....Get a life folks. You dont use it, I am not paying for it.....how rediculous....LA has a reasonable transit system. The reason it is usually late or stuck is because YOU take up the major streets, few can drive without a cell phone in their hands causing accidents....and you just dont give a hoot about anyone or anything. The Red Cars are gone and that was a major major mistake. Too late now LA. But the subway is great......I admit it is not much presently, but look at the work involved in building one. My God, give our city a chance. Greed is what this is all about, and not caring one bit. I ride the subway and I drive, but I seldom drive anylonger in LA due to the high cost of fuel, the busses all back loged to due CAR CONGESTION on the streets. Get off the streets people, learn to drive if you must, and take a chance, ride the bus or the subway......it is great. You do get there in half the time......well, normally......A 10 year tax I would welcome for this ride, and I guess in another lifetime, the subway will extend all over the city....but get a life folks....gas will continue to rise, streets will get to the point of going no place......and you all will only wish it were there working. We all need this but limit the time frame and the tax only for the subway, nothing esle. Look at the lottery....all that money going to education.....our kids cant read, write, or do anything but cause trouble....worst schools in the country, so where is the money going, certainly not too pay for educators. Wake up and smell the coffee before the pot is broken and empty. YES YES YES to the tax and the subway to the sea.

[Warren]

Build the subway to the sea and a line from the Valley to Long Beach along the 405. Increase the taxes a full percent to get the job done.

[JD]

A subway would be nice for those living along Wilshire and its vicinity but I think we need to take a look at monorails that are so much cheaper and supported by such diverse segments as the business community and citizens like Ray Bradbury. I have yet to hear one good argument against monorails, or one good reason why the subway is better. Shouldn't practicality trump myopic, sound bite planning for a mythical money pit called "Subway to the Sea"?

[Thomas Habinek]

Sorry, "are you kidding," but a city the size of Los Angeles can and has had an effective public transportation system. Take a look at Robert Fogelson's book, The Fragmented Metropolis. It has excellent maps of the tram system Los Angeles used to have. Why do you think our boulevards are so wide? Because many of them had trams running down the middle.

As for "hugh jorgan"'s suggestion that we hand it all over to a private company, why? Privatization just makes things more expensive, since CEO salaries, stock dividends, etc. have to be added to the basic cost of doing the work. Just look at private health insurance plans, which last time I checked had at least five times the overhead of Medicare. If I'm not mistaken, most of the cost overruns the last round of Metro construction came from the private contractors, not the public agencies.

[brooke]

You most definitely can have a mass scale subway system here in L.A.

This group has detailed out a subway map that covers both the SFV and the Westside:

http://www.getlamoving.com/

[LA to NY]

I agree that if you don't pay for it now, you'll end up paying for it later. So what if it doesn't benefit you, it will benefit LA as a whole and that's all that should matter. I moved to NY because of the terrible air pollution and disastrous public transportation system. I believe if LA starts now rather than wait, LA can be more accessible through public transportation. It will only help future generations. Look at New York, I haven't needed a car and take buses, traines and/or subways everday. No need to worry about gas and it helps to think that I'm not adding to the pollution mess as much as I used to when I lived in LA.

[Diana Pangestu]

Yes! Bring on that subway. There is no joy of working in Los Angeles when there's no way to get around the city. I would rather give the government some cash to create a situation where I can get to the beach WITHOUT DRIVING than to wallow in Los Angeles's urban sprawl. Get out of your cars people! We are recreating the city for the future when private automobiles won't be as convenient or as cheap as they currently are. But in order to create that city for the future we need to put the infrastructure in place now! For generations that are not as self-absorbed, but who grew up in a globalized technocratic environment.

[Brian]

I'm already taxed to the hilt! How about ending the corrupt income tax and then our state will have enough money to build to the sea and beyond! Cut some programs that we don't need. Enough is enough of this tax crap!

[Pam, Long Beach, California]

Heck no I won't vote for that! From the Wilshire district to Santa Monica...how would that benefit the rest of us? Instead of spending that amount of money (and, I'm sure, much more) on Wilshire, why not something that benefits people going to work instead of to the beach! Now, if I take public transportation to work, it takes over 2 hours each way for a drive that takes me less than 45 minutes! I'd love to use public transportation, but it's incredibly inefficient. How about something more sensible than the cumbersome, useless system we have now. Maybe people in that area should pay for it as it won't benefit anyone else.

[Steve]

I would gladly support a sales tax increase by half-percent if it means I would be able to take a subway from the westside to downtown. Also, the amount of congenstion the subway extension to the ocean would decrease is worth more than money! This city needs subways, not just new freeway lanes, express busses, and light rail. We need fast, efficient, transportation, and we need it now!!

[Jessica]

As a native Angeleno, I only recently rode the Metro for the first time...from Highland Park to Union Station, then MacArthur Park to Hollywood & Highland and then all the way out to North Hollywood and back to Highland Park again. It was fantastic and well worth the $5 I spent on the day pass. No more parking woes or surface-street road rage. And best of all, as I was walking the streets of Downtown, Hollywood, and MacArthur Park, I saw my city from a perspective that is lost when you're sitting in a car cursing at the person who made you miss that left turn onto Wilshire. I think a metro line to the sea would be fantastic and I would gladly pay a little more in taxes to enjoy a little less stress (and a lot less road rage) when I want to go to the beach. Plus, who wants to pay $8 to park at the beach,anyway?

[Jessica]

After reading others' comments, why do I get the sneaking suspicion that those who object have never even looked at the current Metro map? Even if you don't live on the Westside (which I also do not), that doesn't mean you can't take full advantage of the new proposed line to the sea. Uh hello, there is such a thing as a connection/ transfer station that connects one line (like the East Side gold line) to another line (like the Long Beach blue line). People claiming that the transportation system in L.A. "sucks" (which it does not) while also crying that they would not support a tax increase that would make the system "suck" less, should look to our friends in Europe who have a GREAT system that provides transportation in major cities as well as throughout (almost) all European countries (the Eurorail system)...and guess what, they pay a considerably amount of taxes(about 40%in some European countries) to enjoy such a model system. Suck it up and stop complaining.

[BH from Sherman Oaks]

Not another tax increase. Once they increase it there is no turning back. Also expect this thing to cost at least double the quoted price. I'm not opposed to the subway but let the people who use it pay for it. Would riders be willing to pay $10-15/ day to ride this thing?

[unico]

i am for taxes, especially for public transit. what i am not for is a tax on the people to put s subway to the sea. before that happens the central core of LA needs a rail grid that can connect people to where they have to go. begin with downtown. then work 5-10 mile radius and place east and west north and south railes and then build out. what good does a subway to the sea do for some one who lives in maywood as sal b does if he cant get to it. I cant even get to the blue line with out a hassle. start in DT and work out building a grid. until then no tax on the people. crenshaw or vermont or western still need a rail going north south. slauson or florence still needs a rail going east west. of course its only gunna be the blue collar people riding these rails, but guess what they are the same people paying for the buses already. reward the areas with the most bus transit with better transit. lets make the rails a for people who really need them, not just a "nice" thing to have.

[Franklin]

I have lived in Los Angeles for over ten years and have recently started to use the Metro subway. Like Jessica, I am amazed by its speed and efficiency. I am also walking around the city and seeing things I would have missed in car. Los Angeles is beautiful. We just never get to see it while stuck in gridlock traffic.

Build the Subway to the Sea and everywhere else. Give the residents of this city a transportation system for the 21st century....it certainly won't be the private automobile.

[Kymberleigh Richards]

Al, your clueless rhetoric just doesn't fly. And every similar statement against improving rail transit hasn't flown either.

The reason: No criminal is going to take the risk of being caught while he waits for the train to come. He is going to want to get out of there quickly.

Please do us all the favor of getting a thought process going before you post.

[Dan W.]

London is proof that a sprawling city can have a vibrant, dynamic and comprehensive mass transit system.

Everyone will benefit from the spine of the Purple Line being finished down Wilshire and Century City.

Other lines are being built at the same time and will be expanded at the same time.

The best days of solo-motoring are over and we can never get those glory days back. It's a very different Los Angeles that's emerging and not everyone will get to live suburban, car-based lifestyles in the middle of an urban environment just because they've grown a feeling of entitlement to that lifestyle. The limits of sprawl and road building have been met. Millions more are coming to So. Cal. over the next few decades. This city is becoming more vertical and dense and the car culture city of yesterday is more and more becoming unsustainable. The fact that the quality of this solo-driving lifestyle cannot be preserved and will only continue to decline will irk many who don't like change. But change is already happening.

We can keep Southern California economically and environmentally sustainable and thriving, but we will need to invest as heavily in our public transit infrastructure over the next five decades as we invested in freeways over the last five. We cannot turn the clock back.

Raise the sales tax to an even 9% and build these rail lines even quicker.

[kint]

The question is whether you want to reduce traffic. Even if you don't take the metro, this will take thousands of cars off the road, which will help you if you're want to drive somewhere faster.

[Ben]

J: It's actually much safer to be underground in an earthquake. Tunnels move easily with the ground as it moves.
This is a common misconception.

You are much, much more likely to be injured above ground by falling objects.

Anyway, yes, i'd pay it, and more in a heartbeat. And i wouldn't even ride them often at all, if ever.