Carpool lane vs. toll road: Metro to talk options

Metro's thinking of turning freeway carpool lanes into toll roads -- and getting rather mixed responses. Some current carpoolers and stickered hybrid drivers aren't liking it; others seem ready to hand over the cash.

The proposal: First, convert the carpool lanes on the 110 in South L.A., the 10 between downtown L.A. and El Monte, and the 210 between Pasadena and Duarte. Then convert the "rest of the 210 east of Duarte, on carpool lanes being built on the 60 and carpool lanes planned on the 10 east of El Monte."

Even when I did have a car around, I rarely drove on those stretches of the freeways, so I really don't know what the situation is like. What I do know is that it'll be a while before anything actually happens -- 2009 at the earliest, according to the L.A. Times.

So get your 2 cents into the Metro now. Metro Board Chair Pam O’Connor will talk about congestion reduction pricing -- including toll roads -- during her next live Internet chat on Wednesday, Jan. 23, 2008, from noon to 1 pm. Log on to chat live then, or if you just can't wait, e-mail advance questions via this form.

Photo by Ken Hively / Los Angeles Times

Comments

[Aaron]

I'm all about charging tolls for driving here - we all pay taxes to subsidize private drivers but not all of us are private drivers. Similar to transit fares, highway users should also pay a scaled usage fee.

Having said that, this seems like a poor way to go about it. While the carpool lanes on the 105 appear to be underutilized to my untrained eye, the lanes on the 110 are critical for the Harbor Transitway service into Downtown from communities south of Downtown, and if the Transitway becomes clogged by wealthy single drivers willing to pay the tolls, that may render the Transitway entirely useless rather than merely inefficient.

I'd rather see us acknowledge that all highways within urban LA should be tolled, with the money going towards proper development, upkeep, and transit expansions. Unless we're going to be willing to double- and triple- stack freeways (something that will never happen, and shouldn't happen), it's time to realize that the only relief is going to come in additional transit usage, and right now we're rearranging the deck chair on the Titanic.

[Christopher Neal Wyatt]

Charging tolls for use of the 'HOV' lanes, thus converting them to Lexus Lanes, may prove to be the most politically popular option facing Highway planners, as it would give drivers a way to pay their way around congestion (at least, in theory). In my humble opinion, however, a much more effective congestion and pollution management option would be to convert the HOV lanes into FREIGHT use only (i.e., 18 wheeler use). My reasoning for believing this is that, when mixed with general traffic, tractor trailers contribute inordinately to traffic congestion-- they are difficult to get around when you are merging on or off the freeway, and tractor trailer drivers must constantly brake to maintain a safe distance between them and all of the other drivers who are snaking around them at the last possible second. If You were to segregate the tractor trailer drivers from the general, stop-and-go commuting traffic, then they would be able to maintain a much more constant speed, thus generating less pollution, and burning a lot less gas. In fact, it is my opinion that the benefits to the trucking community would be so great, that they would be willing to pay even higher tolls than Lexus Drivers for the chance to skirt around congestion. Still, as great an idea as I believe this could be, there are still a couple of issues which must be addressed, and the most critical is Structural-- as many of the L.A. area HOV lanes are built on what were once simply shoulders of the roadways. Are these lanes sufficiently strong enough to support the weight of heavy truck traffic, and if not, could they be made so?

[Ty]

So what else is new? This is about cold hard cash and who has it. Does not have much to do with promoting and conserving the environment.

[Steve]

This is nothing but a money grab. One can assume that the idea for tolling the HOV lanes cane from a "How-do-we-create-more-revenue?" meeting than a "How-do-we-fix-our-traffic-woes?" meeting. This entire charade of a plan should embarass those who initiated it and is a slap in the face to everyone who entrusts the MTA/Caltrans to actually do something about easing congestion. I can already see the one occupant Hummer H2 whizzing by me and my wife in our hybrid car, because we don't want to pay an additional $20 for the right to drive in a lane that my tax dollars already paid for.

[anonymous]

Sure! let's not only convert the lanes to toll roads...Let's also privatize the whole road maintenance and toll road monitoring so that republicans can give more no bid contracts to their friends and then driving will become a thing for the rich and famous...The rest of us will be confined to the other lanes and/or to the pathetic mass transit we have in southern california...

[Enlightenment]

How about putting a restriction on the tollway for car's only to promote vehicles with higher gas mileage? No SUV's, pickups, or trucks!

The one thing that makes me happy is at least this will cost the scum that use the HOV lane with one driver and don't get caught...yes I've seen you scum that think you are too good to follow the rules.

[Tom]

I will be more than gladly to pay to save time. I can always make more money, but I can't never make more time!

[ex-LA resident]

BWAHAHAHA!

I am SOOOO glad I left the country before this started happening!! I would be fuming right now, but thank goodness I was able to leave. I live in a little town in Mexico where a cross-town commute at rush hour takes 15 minutes.

The reduced driving-related stress alone makes leaving LA worthwhile...

So long, suckers! :-)

[Dan]

By 2009, those freeways will be dead stopped anyways. That one little lane won't make a difference.

[Micheal]

If I drive in the toll-road, do I still have to pay the gasoline tax? The gasoline tax was supposed to pay for new roads. Seems like double taxation.

[Ponch]

This is typical putting the cost on working class minority populations while the white and affluent sections of the county (e.g., the 101 and 405) are left out of this program.

The San Gabriel Valley Tribune recently wrote that the logic behind this is to get funding for that boondoggle, the Gold Line Extension to Azusa or Montclair or the Ontario Airport or wherever some new group wants it to go. No one has seemed to notice that the train basically runs empty because it is highly inconvenient and slow. This extension will just exacerbate these two factors.

As for the writer's question, traffic is as bad in the San Gabriel Valley and on the 110 as on the Westside (for those of you who never come east of La Brea).

If Metro wants this program to work, this needs to be region wide, hitting the Inland Empire, Orange County, Ventura and the Westside, as well as charging working class commuters from Wilmington and West Covina. And it needs to provide true public transportation, not some pointless pork to make David Drier and his friends look good.

[S.P.]

Bad Idea!
I take a motorcycle to work and I use the area between the carpool and the number 1 lane like my own personal racetrack. If they turn it into a pay lane surely there'll have to be some sort of barrier put up. Then I'll have to wait in bumper to bumper traffic like the rest of you poor saps?!? SCREW THAT!

Sure I'm being selfish, but I see "splitting the lanes" as my reward for taking the ultimate "clean" vehicle to work.

[sirimiri]

I also ride a motorcycle, in fact, I sold my car because I only drove it once every three weeks.

This is only about monetizing a system...nothing about the environment. As soon as the open up this "excess" capacity for pay, it will begin to fill.

There'd better be a provision for motorcycles in this thing, I ride a very clean, efficient bike and have taken over 2800 pounds of metal, rubber and glass off the road, every day.

[Ray Douglas]

Let's face it. The only way we are going to eliminate the one person / one car LA driving culture is to hit people in their pocket books. I don't think the proposal goes far enough. I would propose making all California freeways toll roads. The world just met in Bali, acknowledged the global warming problem and hammered out an agreement. The world recognizes the problem. It's time California drivers did the same. In California, multiple people in one car or the widespread use of mass transit will never happen voluntarily.

[Pat Barry]

Even back to the days when Gerry Brown was Governor the State was diverting raod tax money into welfare and other programs and crying poor about roads and highway funding - now they have a transparent grab in play to charge tolls on our free roads. Are they nuts? Anyone can see how the tolls will spread - first to the carpool lanes, then to the free lanes.
Around the country toll roads are being built then sold to infrastructure consortiums for huge cash payments, allowing governments to balance their budgets and fund their pet programs. The San Diego to Tijuana toll road, not even built yet, has been bought by an Australian infrstructure fund - what makes me think this grab will be any different?

[Mike Souza]

Has the city ever thought of a monorail system? It's faster and easier to make than subways.

[Bruce]

Any proposal that reduces incentives to carpool or drive a clean car, like this one, is absurd. The air quality in Los Angeles is poisonous because the city's approach to transportation is shockingly primitive and irresponsible. A city of this size needs real public transportation. The fact that an overpopulated, smog-drenched megalopolis like L.A. does not have a sophisticated, efficient system of subways, commuter trains and light rail is reprehensible. This should have been the #1 priority of our local and state politicians over the past 30 years. Unfortunately, our civic leaders have no courage, no vision, and no solutions for what has already become an environmental and public health crisis of epic proportions. Their cowardice has put the health of millions of children at risk, and has squandered the opportunity to make L.A. a truly great, livable city.

[James]

Here's a letter I wrote to the Times. It didn't get accepted, but it pretty much sums up how I feel...

How is making the car pool lanes into toll roads going to get more
single passengers cars off the road? If a lone driver can buy his/her
way onto the diamond lane they will. How is charging car poolers a fee
going to encourage car pooling?

MTA needs to provide more public transporation and stop letting
Sacramento raid those funds everytime there's a budget crisis.

There's always a budget crisis.

[James]

"Has the city ever thought of a monorail system? It's faster and easier to make than subways."

Yes Mike, the same people who built the monorail system for Disneyland, wanted to build a monorail system down the center of the freeways, way back in the 60's and at their own cost.

The city turned them down.

Real forward thinking eh?

[Bruce Barnes]

The real issue is the effecient use of all methods of transportation. Light rail is hindered when it's right of way has to cross others such as roads. Both systems HAVE TO BE INDEPENDANT for safety and efficency. This would reduce the congestion. All light rail systems need to be upgraded and any new additions need to be on seperate right of ways. If we don't do this A.S.A.P., we are just kidding our selves and deserve the mess that we have created. It will be expensive in the short term, but beneficial and cheaper in the long term.

[Dmitriy]

No one will be surprised by this comment.

I am rich and as a rich person i got no problem paying for the converted HOV lanes and actually will welcome them with open arms. However as i said no one would be surprised that a rich person will like pay-to use lanes.

Will this really solve our traffic problem? No, it will not make a difference and even might make it worse. Currently regardless who you're (with exception of hybrid vehicle) as long as you got 2 people in the car you can use HOV lane.

If we really want to solve traffic on freeway, then we have no choice but to consider this 2 options 1)double deck the freeways or 2)expand freeway and take by force people land. No other real option exist

[Tim in Sylmar]

Here's an idea worth exploring -- Add another lane so that there are two "diamond" lanes. Then, let both carpoolers and folks that want to pay in them.

Keep if free for carpoolers, but generate revenue as well from those who wish to pay.

What do you think?

[James]

No Dmitriy, we have a third option; create a mass transit system EVEYONE can use.

[Lisa Marie]

What in God's good name are they going to do about the 405 & 101? Those are the two worst highways. It doesn't matter what time of day that you drive on either of these freeways and it seems like it's getting worse daily even in the carpool lane. I think that the MTA needs to provide some type of monorail or subway system that can provide commuters access to and from Ventura County through the San Fernando Valley to the Westside and not just to the downtown area. I also agree that charging tolls for the HOV lanes is a terrible idea. It's bad enough that commuters are not carpooling enough as it is.

[DaveH]

SO GLAD TO BE GONE FROM CALIFORNIA, where you people are constantly defrauded into paying more for everything.
Have you noticed--cheap transportation doesn't go where you want to go, and if they put in a road to where you want to go, it's a TOLL ROAD?