The Matt Kemp Batting Eighth Get It All Out of Your System Thread

8

Why do my kids ignore my instructions though it's a punishment when they do?
Why do drivers eschew their turn signals though it benefits them and you?
Why does Joe Torre bat Matt Kemp one spot above the pitcher?
I don't know, but all I can say is that now's your last chance to bitch here.

Comments

[Tripon]

Bitch doesn't violate the rule one?

[Jon Weisman]

The rules are for the commenters. I'm actually allowed to break them. I just only do so in extreme circumstances - like when I need a rhyme.

[gagne55]

I think it's funny that you have an 8 crossed out because it could refer to Kemp batting 8th or to posters breaking rule 8.

[Jon Weisman]

Yes, I like that too. Thanks.

[ucladodger]

Matt Kemp now has an OPS of .875, good for 19th in the National League. He should not be hitting 8th. That is all.

Also, just got back from LSAT class and was surprised to see Lincecum give up runs to the Padres. Shuts out everybody else, but give up 3 to the Pads. Funny game this is.

[Alex41592]

Per Rotoworld:

"Matt Kemp went 3-for-4 with an RBI in the Dodgers' victory over the Mets on Thursday night.

Batting eighth, Kemp banged three singles to raise his average to .319. He's having a terrific year; it's anyone's guess why he continues to bat at the bottom of the Dodger lineup."

[Yo Yo Ma]

Eighth slot is actually second clean-up - Yeah... that's right... that's what Torre tells Kemp every time he's slotted there...

[Eric Stephen]

I definitely want Kemp to bat higher than 8th. I don't want idiots like A. Martinez to dismiss Kemp's numbers because "he doesn't even bat in the middle of the lineup" (this shouldn't bother me at all, but it really, really does).

I want ESPNews to be able to correctly distinguish between Matt Kemp and James Loney, unlike during last year's playoffs.

However, my frustration is limited, because I am buoyed by the fact that over the past few years, our main gripe has been about playing time. Now, the young veterans are everyday rocks of the lineup. Kemp's name gets written into the lineup everyday. I chalk that up as a win, even though it would be nice if he were a little higher in the lineup.

[Tripon]

The problem with complaining about Kemp's position in the order is that the lineup has been extremely productive this series, and since Manny came back. Its an offense that scored at least 4 runs per game, and if its on all cylinders, Kemp will get his PAs.

Of course, I'd like to see Kemp bat higher, but its not as if he was the difference between a win or a loss tonight.

[Tripon]

Ignoring lefties/righties match ups, if we're starting our best 9, I'll like to see:

Furcal
Ethier
Manny
Blake
Kemp
Hudson
Loney
Martin

[Tripon]

"• The Dodgers open a three-game series in Milwaukee sending RHP Chad Billingsley (9-4, 3.14) vs. RHP Braden Looper (7-4, 4.78)"

Looper is meat.

[Zach]

I've never met you personaly Jon, but gosh darn it, Iove you man.
Uhh..like a brother...nothing to see here.
But seroiously, you are the man!

[mattsd]

I'm almost definitely in the minority, but I don't find the persistent complaints in the game threads unbearable or even particularly unpleasant.

I appreciate that DT is different than the McCovey Chronicles of the world, and there is something to be said for a place where the discussion is lead by guys like a Stanford English grad and an LA librarian.

That said, I don't always think we need to act like we're watching a tennis match. We can keep an elevated level of discourse while still allowing ourselves to offer honest and persistent criticism when it is deserved, even if we are on pace to win 100 games. Let's complain about Hee Seop Choi sitting, and let's complain about being too cheap to sign Price/White/Blair but offering money to Mota that would likely have signed any of those 3, and let's talk about whether James Loney deserves to have a guaranteed job next year. Because if we don't, who will? And these are discussions that need to take place for the advancement of the game and our understanding of it.

The rules are the rules, and I won't say anything more about Kemp's position in the order.

[Zach]

Seriously, I need to use spellcheck.

[perry-way too long dodger fan]

it does spread out the line up without giving up 2 or 3 outs to your 7-9 hitters...it might change the dynamics of how they pitch to # 6 and 7...that being said, I would like to see finally what Kemp is capable of and take the "potential" tag off of him

[Don Fulton]

I may have missed it somewhere, but has Kemp said anything negative about his spot in the lineup? Probably not, and not entirely relevant to the point of this thread, but he really is flourishing at the bottom of the order, and the Dodgers' offense is potent enough for him to keep getting 4 ABs per game and plenty of chances to drive in runs.

I just can't argue with or complain about the results.

[Andrew Shimmin]

Torre should bat Kemp fifth. Manny third, Ethier cleanup, and Hee Seop Ch-i second. Ch-i is OPSing 1.037 in the two hole!

[Alex41592]

It bothers me a whole lot more when Kemp bats eighth against a lefty. Kemp is an absolute left handed pitching monster. Today's lineup but with Kemp batting sixth is more than fine against right handers.

[noho dodger]

You know that Blake thrived in the eight hole earlier in the year. Kemp seems to be doing equally well there.

Maybe the hitters feel more relaxed and less pressure in the eight spot. I would be interested in knowing the splits for Kemp and Blake in the various spots that they batted in the order this year.

[LASportsCentral.com]

Wait, Matt Kemp bats eighth???

[Alex41592]

But, regardless of whether any of us want him batting that low he is absolutely destroying the ball batting eighth.

.512/.565/.732/1.297

That was before today's game.

[Andrew Shimmin]

Batting order splits for Kemp. And for Blake.

[Andrew Shimmin]

The lower Kemp hits, the higher his OPS. If he played Cricket, he could bat 11th and be the greatest athlete of all time.

[Xeifrank]

Batting Kemp 8th vs batting him 2nd in the lineup costs the Dodgers about a half a win over the course of the season. There are small gains to be made from lineup construction, but for the most part as long as you aren't doing something silly like batting Manny 8th or 9th or the pitcher at the top of the order you are generally ok. Kemp needs to be moved up in the order vs LHP. Against a RHP, I think the error is less costly.
vr, Xei

[berkowit28]

Martin found a total of 13 on base during his PAs tonight. He did OK, but if Kemp had been batting in Martin's position - 6th - and batted exactly how he did (mostly singles, but 3 for 4) we probably would have had another 4-5 runs. No big deal tonight, but it might be tomorrow, or yesterday.

Speaking of which, yesterday Loretta - Loretta! - batted 5th while Kemp batted 8th. If Kemp bats 8th he gets one more PA and Dodgers likely win, not lose.

[berkowit28]

If Kemp bats 5th (not 8th)...

[ucladodger]

I would like to think that yesterdays game was that half of a win, Xei. I think that lineup miffed the most just for the fact that Mark Loretta hit 5th and Kemp 8th against a lefty.

[mattsd]

Xei, I think most of us have conceded that this isn't something that would add more than a marginal benefit to the team.

But the benefit could be had freely. The extra half win to be had for free is not being taken advantage of, while I wouldn't be surprised if we trade one or more of our mid level prospects for a similar increase in win expectancy at the trade deadline.

[berkowit28]

Both Giants and Rockies are now doing better not only than the second place teams in the other NL divisions (i.e. wild card) but also the *first* place teams in the other divisions )marginally in the case of the Rockies, but still). Yet still trail the Dodgers by 7 and 8 games respectively. The top 3 NL West teams are also the top 3 teams in the whole league.

Red Sox, Yankees, Tigers, Rangers and Angels in the other league all have better records than Giants and Rockies. But Dodgers still reign supreme, by a substantial amount (.635 vs. .600 Red Sox and Yankees). We're currently winning most series 2-1. But if we want to get back to a season 2-1 average (an exceptional .667) we'll have to sweep a few series. Something to aim for, I guess.

[chris vila]

Unforgivable

[Josiah]

I don't care who hits where. I care about Dodger victories. If the way for us to win is by Kemp hitting 8th or 3rd or 5th, so be it, as long as we are in a position to win every night. And remember, Joe Torre is at the helm here. The dude hasn't missed the playoffs since the mid 90's. That is no fluke. I trust the man when he fills out the line-up card.

[dzzrtRatt]

No three-game losing streaks so far.

I remember when the Dodgers' idea of a great record was five ROY in a row. Finally, a meaningful number to tout.

Ergo, where Torre bats Kemp matters not to me unless they start losing.

I'm sure in future, less blessed seasons when the D's have to grind out the wins as usual, Kemp will be slotted as #4 or #5.

[underdog]

Can't help the sarcasm infused in the post-game wrap up on the Mets blog Amazin' Avenue:

"The Mets dropped yet another nailbiter at Citi Field on Thursday night, as the Dodgers practically willed themselves to an 11-2 squeaker. Livan Hernandez scattered eleven hits and four walks over four solid if unspectacular innings, but kept the Mets in the game by only allowing eight of those baserunners to cross the plate. How does he do it? Guile, mostly. And ham. But he's a gamer, and even when he doesn't have his best stuff he finds a way to limit the damage."

[Eric Stephen]

The only thing remotely non-positive said by Kemp about this whole thing -- and he has made the rounds recently thanks to the whole Final Vote thing -- was on a radio interview or two, when he said when he first saw he was batting 9th (was that in Texas?) he was "shocked" but that as long he was in the lineup he didn't care.

[underdog]

Can't help but enjoy, that should read above.

The sarcasm continues unabated in the rest of that post, and then they followed up with a new one called "Free Jon Niese!" Can't blame them at all.

[Andrew Shimmin]

If Kemp had a problem with batting eighth, would he be likely to gripe about it to anybody? I've never gotten the impression that he was stupid.

I think batting him eighth is wrong. I don't like it; I'd rather it quit happening. I'd probably be angry about it if the Dodgers weren't ripping the league apart stem to stern. But they are.

[Eric Stephen]

I've found stem to stem is my favorite way to rip something apart.

[Doug Minnick]

Hey, I just thought of something. Maybe one of the writers covering the Dodgers should actually ask Joe Torre to explain his reasoning for batting Matt Kemp eighth.

[dodger tony]

After a lengthy statistical analysis of the Dodgers without any of the analysis, my dear friend, a longtime contributor to Dodgerthoughts who shall remain nameless, and I have finally slogged through all of the statistical nomenclature to come to something akin to Stan Conte's new injurymetric algorithm (featured in today's NY Times...that's right you heard me), and have decisively agreed as to what the Dodgers MUST have to proceed elegantly into October and, most hopefully, into the kith and kin of November.

The Dodgers MUST acquire not an inning's eating machine on the mound, but a bona fide top of the rotation ACE, if not two of them, and a mashing number four hole hitter. This addresses both areas of most immediate concern to the team: their lack of a bona fide top of the rotation ACE and a number four hole masher.

If the Dodgers wish to avoid the Chicago Cubs model of '08 and proceed apace into that good night, Ned Colletti must add these two signature elements. If the team stands pat and hopes beyond hope that Wolf and Kuroda and Kershaw have the stuff and substance to withstand such pressure, and that Andre Ethier can provide that power and strike fear into the heart of CC and Co., then more power to him. He will be handing over the reigns to Ms. Ng before Holloween.

Halladay/Dunn.
OR
Lee/Dunn
OR
Halladay/Oswalt/Dunn
OR
...

[DBrim]

Good luck getting any of those combinations without destroying the team's core and future.

[Craig88USC]

People Who Beat Horses Correctly -

(But who never beat dead horses over and over and over)

Pat Valenzuela
Alex Solis
Aaron Gryder
Pat Day
Gary Stevens
Laffit Pincay Jr.
Bill Shoemaker
Corey Nakatani
Julie Krone
Kent Desormeaux
Garrett Gomez
Eddie Delahoussaye

[sarcastro]

Waiting in the on-deck circle on Wedesday night's game, with the Dodgers losing by 1 run and the tying run at second was a nice touch.

I like Torre personally and all, but some of his moves make no sense to me (or anyone else), and this is at the top of the list. Maybe people would have shown Kemp more support for the balloting if Torre would show more support first!

[Andrew Shimmin]

Maybe one of the writers covering the Dodgers should actually ask Joe Torre to explain his reasoning for batting Matt Kemp eighth.

That would only make it worse.

[CanuckDodger]

I take it Dodger Tony's post above is some kind of joke?

[fanerman]

Jon, your rhymes are tight.

I don't have much else to say about this subject.

[Craig88USC]

...and Joe Torre replied; "Scoreboard, baby!" as he pointed to -

DODGERS 54-31 (102.9 win pace)

NL Next 7 -

San Frisco 47-38 . 7
Philadelphia 45-38 . 8
JTs Colorado 46-39 . 8
St Louis Cards 47-40 . 8
MilwaukeeBeers 44-41 .10
FLA. Margaritaville 45-42 .10
Chicago MBradleys 41-41 .11 1/2

[miketink]

Torre was asked some time ago. Perhaps someonre remembers it better than I. Torre said something like because I want to. The intrepid questioner then mentioned that baseball stat aficionados don't think it's a good thing to do. Torre said something like that's why they play with stats while I manage a ML ballclub.

[jasonungar]

he is killing the ball, in the present time, on a WS type team hitting 7th or 8th and not so much elsewhere in the line up this season for whatever reason..so why do we care, seriously.

[denniso]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[David s]

The only thing I can say on this is the last time Kemp batted fifth, he was 0-6 and probably cost us the win. If I moved him up, I would like to see him bat #2. I think its time to bat Ethier 8 and see if that helps him.
David

[Ken Noe]

"I take it Dodger Tony's post above is some kind of joke?"

Obviously, it doesn't extol Pierre as Ethier's replacement ;-)

[356man]

Best record in the majors and a 7 game lead? I'd be worried if Joe had Kemp batting 10th. We'll see hows this pans out in the playoffs.

[Hollywood Joe]

I think Eric Stephen's first post on this subject was stolen from my brain when I wasn't looking. On every point I found myself nodding silently. Thanks for that Eric

Because I so desperatly want to say something, I will break the 8th myself and make largely the same point I made weeks ago

If I was making the line-up card out Matt Kemp would not be hititng 8th

I think I have imperfect knowledge of this situation in terms of what Torre is trying to accomplish outside of scoring runs. He seemed to have a pretty good record of developing some young hitters in NY. Maybe because Matt has the greatest un-tapped potential of any Dodger regular (by a wide margin) Joe feels the need to force him to hone those skills in ways only known to Joe's yoda like mind.

Maybe, on the other hand, Mr. Torre is math challenged and can't see what we all see and really thinks that Matt is the 8th best hitter in that line-up. Well, that makes me want to cry a bit, but as long as he keeps writing Matt into the line-up and Matty continues to rake in that spot...I can live with it and the Dodgers will prosper with it.

and not sure if this actually posted from my Blackberry earlier this week, so I will repeat now. Thanks to a very good friend I was sitting in row 1 at Citi for Wednesday nights game, I was right on top of the Dodger dugout. When the players entered or left, I shouted my love to Dodger after Dodger with nary a glance in my direction while my 3 friends laughed at my boyish adulation.

In the 3rd or 4th inning, Matt Kemp was the last player coming into the dugout from the field just a few steps behind Manny. While the rest of the world screamed Manny's name (both good screaming and bad) I waited until a mostly silent moment and screamed "BISON"

Matt looked up startled, locked eyes with me, saw the Dodger cap and gave a little smile and a "what's up nod" - my friends went wild

I will always love Matt Kemp for that

[Hollywood Joe]

...and Dodger Tony. You are usually a pretty good fisherman around here, but you can't use bait that obvious. We are some wiley old bass and can see the line trailing off that shiney lure of yours

*PS - it was the number 4 hole hitter line that really gave it away

[dodgerkramer]

Everything is great in my world today after that great Dodgers victory last night. Woohoo!!

You won't hear me complain about anything -- at least until tonight's game in Milwaukee starts.

[jtrichey]

Kemp is my favorite player but even I don't really care that he is batting 8th, especially now that Manny is back. He deserves a better slot, but this lineup is too good to worry too much about order.

[Noel Oman]

I do not have a problem with Kemp batting eighth. I do have a problem with people who similarly do not mind him batting eighth but at the same time suggesting he should be an All-Star.

When I mentioned this earlier, a few pointed out that 8-hole hitters indeed have been All-Stars. But Kemp doesn't strike me as the 8-hole hitter cliche - I'm thinking a shortstop or second baseman who is in the lineup for his glove and gets 'clutch' hits even though he bats .240.

With Kemp's skill set, he should be an All-Star, but he should not be batting eighth. It cannot be both.

That said, it is difficult to get too exercised about either point when the Dodgers are doing so well.

[Bob Hendley]

Of course, its the statheads, or at least a strain of them, that say it doesn't matter where Joe puts Bison in the lineup. The less numerically inclinded look at Kemp smacking the ball and naturally think he should be batting higher.

For the sake of irony, perhaps the question to him should be reposed. Something along the lines - while basbeall stat aficianados feel that your batting Kemp 8th doesn't matter, and that the rally monkey could pick a lineup out of a hat and do as well as you, traditional observers....

[neil taylor]

Bison hitting in the eight hole is a great idea. It gives the lineup balance and provides some thump where the majority of National League teams do not have any. It is a nice bridge to the top of lineup in the middle innings and makes the presence of a light hitting pitcher less of a negative impact. Kemp is thriving in this spot, why complain! And most importantly....as they say in Texas......IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT......

[Deuce]

Admittedly a small sample size, but in the Mets series Kemp was 8-11 w/3 walks and scored only 3 runs and drove in two. In constructing a lineup, you want your most productive hitters in spots where they can produce the maximum amount of runs. Runs=wins, so the goal should be to score as many as possible. Not to mention, over the course of the season, the bottom of the order probably gets 50-60 (I'm estimating) fewer AB's. Maybe Torre has others reasons (humbling the cocky youngster, making Kemp "earn" a more prestigious lineup spot) but otherwise it is costing the team runs.

[Paul]

It seems like every time I find myself questioning Torre's moves, the Dodgers go out and prove to me that maybe a guy who sits at a desk all day maybe doesn't know quite as much about baseball as a guy who is a baseball lifer with WS rings and tons of postseason appearances.

Looking at the pros of batting him 8th, it does balance the lineup nicely, and it also is nice that you don't have an automatic out in front of the pitcher. Having back to back easy outs can really kill rallies.

[new_to_LA]

Hello all Dodger fans and Jon,

I'm moving soon for grad school at UCLA and will start to follow the Dodgers.

What are a few things I need to know in order to help me not stick out like a sore thumb when watching them play?

[Old Dodger Fan]

You have to admit that it's a great year when all we have to complain about is the batting order.

[Connector]

At the risk of repeating what others have said, Torre's strategy, so I read or heard (I forgot which) was to have a 8-hole set-up guy for the middle innings. It would be interesting to research the rumber of runs Kemp scored when batting 8th via RBI of the 1,2,and/or 3 hole batters.

[Sam DC]

You need to know that Matt Kemp should not bat 8th.

And welcome.

[Sam DC]

Obelisk fodder!:

“It became apparent to me from the very beginning of the season that I wasn’t going to be given much of a chance or room for error, and today is another example of that,” Ortiz said. “My first start was an example of that, and my fourth start was an example of that. The last two months I don’t think I’ve really struggled pitching. “I struggled today, and I’m out after three innings and we come back and win. I don’t understand it, and I haven’t been given a real good reason why I was taken out. They said I was walking and getting behind too many guys. But like I said, in my last inning, four out of the (last) five guys I made my pitches to. They just did a good job of hitting them.”

http://tinyurl.com/lvkqm9

[Jon Weisman]

new_to_LA | July 10, 2009 at 07:22 AM

Your question is almost too good to be true.

www.tinyurl.com/100thingsdodgers

[jim hitchcock]

All I can say is that it's Friday, and I have nothing to *itch about.

Meanwhile, the Dodgers are on pace to win at least 54 games this year!

[Old Dodger Fan]

Bitch is a rule 1 violation?
Was it that long ago we talked about something being "bitchin" and was a good thing?
Man, I hate gettin' old.

[jim hitchcock]

Old Dodger Fan, substitute bitchin with boss(!) and you'll be fine.

[john hale]

I like Kemp in the 8th slot so I am able to honestly tell my 10 year-old son that when he bats 8th that its where all stars bat

[madmac]

I'm just thankful this our biggest concern about the Dodgers.

[Deuce]

Just heard Peter Pascarelli on ESPN radio say the Dodgers were a darkhorse in the Halladay sweepstakes because they could offer someone like Kemp...Let's hope he's just pulling that out of his rear end.

[tleonp]

Matt Kemp batting eighth is a case of Joe Torre outthinking himself (not hard to do, since he's fighting against an unarmed man). Some thoughts:

1. Kemp would be hitting at the same high level no matter where you place himin the lineup. The result of him batting 8th is thus a net loss in production.

2. Kemp batting 8th effectively neutralizes one of his best weapons: his base stealing efficiency. Torre is reluctant to have Kemp steal, particularly with 2 outs (when it makes the most sense TO steal) because he doesn't want to risk having our pitcher lead off the next inning. This is compounded with less than two outs by the sheer idiocy of having the pitcher sacrifice our best base stealer to 2nd.

3. Kemp has been walked intentionally with men in scoring position on at least 2 occasions in the last week alone...to get to the pitcher

People who say "they're playing well with him there" miss the big picture. They are ignoring the fact that, last night notwithstanding, we have struggled to score runs for over a month. The reason: the empty void that is the Martin-Loney-Ethier axis.

We'll be a better team when Torre stops thinking and just tries to help the ballclub.

[SteelMohawk]

I am torn, I think that there as many times that he(or Blake) have had big hits from the 8hole, but we just get nothing from our batter number 4, Manny withstanding. I just hate how the 4th spot in the line is like a pitcher coming up to bat.

[SteelMohawk]

Oh and Matt Kemp, Clayton Kershank, and Chaz Bills should never be traded, even for a CY Young hurler like Hallady.

[tleonp]

You people who think that Torre is some sort of yoda-like genius amaze me. He is an average to below average manager who fell into a pot of gold in New York. Thus, he apparently sprouted angels wings.

Essentially, he's Jeff Torborg with better career luck and a winning way with the media.

[Bleacher Seats]

Kemp should be batting 2nd. The order should be:

Furcal
Kemp
Manny
Blake
Ethier
Loney
Martin
Hudson
Pitcher

[jpg]

I cared more before Manny came back. With Manny in the lineup and Martin/Rafy showing real signs of life, having the best hitter eight hitter in the NL is kind of an interesting novelty.

With Kemp about to be named as a replacement All-Star someone asked several days ago if an outfielder who batted eighth had ever made the all-star team. Was that question answered because I can't think of anyone? The key is "outfielder".

The tone is interesting today. I think if Jon had posted this after Wednesday's loss instead of Thursday's victory the tone would have been a little more different but an 11 - 2 thumping changes the spirits.

[DL]

There once was a slugger named Matt
In the 8th spot was his bat
If you go and ask Joe,
He says, "I like him that low"
And it makes DL want to eat his hat

[Bleacher Seats]

The Dodgers should trade for Halliday and Holliday.

Trade away Loney and any of the AAA pitchers they want. We would be set for two years to win the world series. Could you imagine a lineup with Manny and Holliday back to back for the next two years? And we would be set for at least the next 2-3 years with pitching, so we wouldn't be too hurt by giving away 3-4 to rated pitchers at this point.

With Halliday, Bills, Kershaw and Kuo/Wolf going into the playoffs, no team will touch the Dodgers for the next 2 years.

[Old Dodger Fan]

Deuce

I listen to those 2 guys on my ipod via podcasts. For the most part they lack fresh ideas. So often they just repeat the media mantras without a lot of thought.

[Deuce]

Torre was a below .500 manager pre-Yankees. This idea that because he won titles he is now above criticism is silly. Managers are only as good as their talent. If batting your second best hitter 8th is such a great idea, why is he the only manager in baseball doing it? Yeah, the Dodgers are 7 games up, but could they be 9 or 10 with better decision making? As for the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" argument, under that thinking Manny should still be on the bench because we were winning w/Pierre.

[Paul]

OK, I'm going to change the subject and pretend I'm Jayson Stark. Here's some useless trivia:

In the last 7 series, the Dodgers are 1-6 in the middle game of each series, and 11-3 combined in the first and 3rd games of those series. Of course, that means we won 5 of those 7 series. Makes you wonder why the Dodgers can't ever seem to win game 2.

[tleonp]

Right on, Deuce. This Torre worship is beyond me. And, it doesn't help that our compliant so-called "beat-writer" for the LA Times enters every interview with Joe in full posterior smooching mode.

[underdog]

Can't wait for a new post up top. Come on, NPUT, baby needs a new pair of shoes!

tleon, I get this feeling, and it's just a hunch, that you don't care for Torre all that much. Just call it canine intuition...

[68elcamino427]

C'mon - bat the Bison #3

Furcal
Martin*
Kemp**
Manny
Blake
Ethier
Loney
Hudson*
Pitcher

*When Hudson gets hot again switch spots with Martin

**Would the Bison who is "Tougher than a Robot Made of Nails" benefit from hitting in front of Manny?
You would have two batters with true "Oppo" power hitting back to back.

Just a thought

[Deuce]

What's interesting to me is that Phil Jackson seems to take his fair share of heat, where Torre is bulletproof.

[phillydodger]

I too question Torre's moves, just about daily. It's what makes the baseball world go around. Lately I wonder if:
- he is killing Belasario (like Wade last year and Proctor in NY)
- playing Martin far too much. Martin is neither an offensive weapon or a defensive difference maker. Play Ausmus at least 2-3 weekly. What could it hurt?
- Kemp needs to bat at least 6th, though I yearn for him to get at least a week's worth of fast balls in the two hole ahead of Manny!
Dream on, I know, I know!

[Bleacher Seats]

If I was going to bat Manny 4th, I would go with:

Furcal
Kemp
Ethier
Manny
Blake
Loney
Martin
Hudson

[regfairfield]

And they both have the same "let's sit here and do nothing" strategy.

We should be getting Manny as much at bats as possible. Something like:

Martin (who somehow still has one of the best on bases on the team)
Kemp
Manny
Ethier
Blake
Loney
Hudson
Furcal
Pitcher

Is the best without getting too out there.

[Lord Skorpio]

Furcal - starting to heat up
Ethier - Always does better in front of Manny
Manny
Blake - Veteran to take so-called pressure off of...
Kemp
Hudson
Loney - Should have rabbits in front of him for more RBI
Martin - Also has a history of good hitting in the 8 hole
Pitcher

This I think would be our best lineup. My two cents.

[Hollywood Joe]

Ok Telonp

So you argument is Torre is an idiot who can't get out of his own way.

Fine, asssume you are correct, then this discussion is really over, because it assumes not only the limit to his intelligence but also his capacity to learn. It does not provide an interesting or enlightening perspective on why Torre bats Kemp 8th other than that he is a mental midget.

As far as this idea that any manager was bad before team X, then succeeded with team X, and should really be judged only on the record before he had the talent of team X, discounts the ability for of any manager to experience any development or learning - again, un-interesting, this is becoming baseball robotics, a faux-faux stratomatic where non-human players are ordered according to their numbers by a non-human manager who has no other job than to make the move that most corresponds to numerical efficiency.

I consider myself a SABR guy but this notion goes too far and seems silly to me. I have said before and I will say again, I think the job that the baseball manager does off the field is more important on the job he does on the field. If he plays his best 8 most of the time, talent and luck will dictate success far more than the managers ability to grind out that extra holy grail win

I don't think Matt Kemp should hit 8th, I certainly wouldn't hit him there. But chalking it up to lack of intelligence on Torre's part seems to be the most un-interesting and unsatisfying answer there is.

Maybe its true, but I hope not

[Brandon]

By batting Matt Kemp eighth Torre neutralizes his stolen base abilities, as Kemp is often sacrificed over upon reaching base. Kemp is stealing bases at an 82.6% rate, but by batting eighth he's never getting the chance.

Not the biggest problem I have with Kemp batting so low, but it's one of them.

[regfairfield]

Doesn't having a faster guy make the odds of getting a sacrifice bunt down more successful? One of the common misconceptions is that every bunt attempt works, but it's really only about 70%. This doesn't even count the times when the guy can't even get the bat on the ball.

[underdog]

Torre is not above criticism, nor should he be, and as this thread has proven (and as some of you prove repeatedly), he has his share of critics at least in the fan base. His lineups are headscratching sometimes when it comes to where people bat in the order, though there is some logic, or method to his madness to it at least -- the team is doing well with that line-up. (And I'm on record as saying, as well as Kemp has done in the 8 spot I still want him to bat 2nd right now.) But Torre does a lot of other things right, some of it, or maybe even much of it, behind the scenes.

The fact that the team is very likely NOT the most talented team in baseball this year (very good, but not the best from top to bottom) AND was missing it's star slugger for 50 games, but STILL has the best record in baseball, including best record in the NL by far, and has pretty consistently played well all season, and yet is ONLY criticized by some of you, well, I find far more head-scratching than where someone bats in his batting orders. Especially when that batting order just scored 23 runs in 3 games.

No, he's *not* above criticism at all, and he shouldn't be, but is it that painful to say something kind about the job he's doing, or tell us which magical managers out there would have done a better job this season?

I give him a B+ as a manager, and there are some things that drive me batty too, but I still appreciate that he's our manager. I guess that's all I have to say.

[fanerman]

Sometimes Joe Torre bothers me. Then I think about Jim Tracy.

[Jack]

I like that lineup too Regairfield as long as Martin continues to walk alot.

Someone suggested dealing Loney for Holiday...Its a ballsy move but I like it --> A's may be interested. Loney/Elbert/Lindblom for Holiday. But who would you play at 1st base? Would you move Holiday there?

[blue22]

The A's already have a powerless line drive hitting first baseman in Daric Barton.

I just can't get too riled up about Kemp hitting 8th as long as:

1. he continues to pepper the ball there
2. LA keeps scoring bushels of runs
3. they win 2 of every 3 games

Serenity now.

[Deuce]

I don't think Torre is stupid, he is obviously a capable manager. But I also can't buy into the idea that he is a genius because he won titles with the Yankees. We need to take his full record at face value, not just be blinded by his success with the Yanks. I agree that not all of a baseball managers' job is done on the field, either. But this is a web site for thinking fans (as I see it) not the bring a beachball to the game types. Torre has done many good things. For example, his use of Broxton in tie games. How many closers have 6 wins? But this Kemp 8th thing is beyond reasonable explanation and his refusal to explain smacks of arrogance.