Torre hopes gay ballplayers would feel free to go public

It went mostly unnoticed in the rapid transition of Bronx-dominated headlines from "The Yankee Years" to Alex Rodriguez and steroids, but Joe Torre made some helpful comments in his interview with CNN’s Larry King regarding gay baseball players.

(My path to this started at SportsbyBrooks, which took me to the transcribed excerpt at Outsports.com and from there to the video at Good as You.)

Ventura, Calif., Viewer: Billy Bean, after he retired, he announced he was gay. Do you foresee a time in the future when an active player can safely announce he’s gay and if he did, what effect would that have on Major League Baseball?

Joe Torre: Well that’s a great question, I don’t know. But I just hope that an active player, if that’s the case, can feel free to do that. That’s all I can say. But I don’t know. Obviously, you have 25 players in the clubhouse, and, you know, it’s going to be tough for everybody to feel as maybe I do. But I’d like to believe our country is turning in that direction.

Larry King: You’d have no problem?

Torre: I’d have no problem.

I think this is an important thing Torre has done, and that it's worth highlighting.

We can feel sure that there are gay baseball players who find existence in the closet far from ideal but fear the consequences of coming out. Certainly, there are some baseball fans who might not want to face that. But it's not right, when all sorts of unpleasant realities about athletes have long been shoved into our face, that those who have done nothing wrong, should feel cowed into silence.

I would like to see others in baseball follow Torre's lead and build an atmosphere of acceptance. In a year that has started out sour for baseball (no matter your opinion on "The Yankee Years" and steroid controversies, it hasn't been fun), this is an opportunity for the sport to make something positive happen on a social scale.  Even if it's a game, we know all too well that baseball can have that impact.  It's long overdue.

Comments

[Tripon]

I think Glenn Burke has to be mentioned in any conversation about gay ballplayers and the Dodgers shameful role in it.

[delias man]

LAT'ed..

We are actually buying our plane tickets for Mexico City in August later this month. I doubt there will be a DT USMNT fan gathering at El Farolito before the game?

I need to figure out how to sit with other Americans at that game if anybody has any suggestions. The ticket manager at USSF in Chicago was not very pleasant or helpful last week.

[kinbote]

Are the moderators going to be paid time and a half for this thread?

[Jon Weisman]

I can't say I'm not concerned, but the site rules are in place, and we'll go from there. But in case anyone's wondering, yes, everyone needs to treat each other with respect.

[D4P]

Billy Beane is gay...?

[Branch Rickey]

Perhaps it will happen some day and I'd like to believe it could happen in the near future. But I don't believe that. Hopefully it's not a rule 5 violation to mention that Prop 8 passed in California. Had ballplayers made up the electorate, it might have been unanimous.

[BHSportsguy]

I have no judgment on what the Dodgers did or did not do in their treatment of Glenn Burke (though I think it would be more what individuals did vs. anything official the club did) but we are talking about 30 years ago where frankly, it was really don't ask, don't tell in most places of modern life.

If Torre thinks baseball should be more tolerant, good for him but professional sports really remains the last barrier in terms of acceptance.

[BHSportsguy]

D4P, if you are interested..

http://www.billybean.com/

[underdog]

D4P, Bean, with no "e" -- former ballplayer who once played for LA, I believe?

This is a bit lighter but on topic, has anyone read Peter Lefcourt's comic novel about the unlikely romance between two major league infielders? He also wrote a script, which was never made into a movie, based on that book. "The Dreyfus Affair" was the title. Fun read.

[Kevin Lewis]

Man, it would be really tough to be the first person to come forward as an active ball player.

I imagine the club house can already feel lonely enough for someone hiding that part of their life.

[underdog]

Bean, with no second "e" I meant, of course.

Here's that book, btw.
http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?PID=26288&cgi=biblio&show=TRADE%20PAPER:NEW:0060975598:14.00

[SaMo]

The first openly gay ballplayer is going to have be some all-star whose talent is beyond question. He won't have it as hard as Jackie did, but it won't be easy nonetheless.

[68elcamino427]

I have always harbored a certain fondness for pitchers upon whom life has bestowed a cunny arm.

[trainwreck]

Hopefully someone feels comfortable enough to do that. They would face some backlash, but hopefully they can learn from Jackie.

[D4P]

Oh, different Billy Bean(e).

[Jon Weisman]

I agree, SaMo. But it would be nice for others to help pave the path. There's no reason there should be no support system.

[poppinfresh]

I agree with SaMo, its going to be tough for any openly gay athlete to play. So much hatred by fans and players alike. It will be tough for people to embrace unless that player is a superstar. Who ever that brave soul is, I hope he can break the barrier like Jackie broke the color barrier and get his # retired by all of baseball for his struggles.

[blue22]

It does not have to be an all-star. Jackie needed to be of extraordinary talent to justify his *entry* into the league. The first openly gay player simply needs to say "guess what guys, I'm gay and have been for all [x] years of my career". Poof...the first openly gay player.

[chris]

Seriously? I can't help but be sophomoric with this one. The tag line for Billy Bean's autobiography titled, Going the Other Way, contains the term "in and out". I am sorry if that is a rule violation.

[Jon Weisman]

There's no doubt in my mind, though, that this is doable, and that intolerance won't win if challenged.

[Jon Weisman]

Chris -

It's not a rule violation, but I'm not sure what point you're making, other than - "hey, double entendre."

[blue22]

I should add that though the player doesn't automatically have to be an all-star, having a guaranteed contract wouldn't hurt.

[Eric Enders]

Baseball's record on this kind of stuff is pretty bad. There's the whole Glenn Burke saga. And Dave Pallone, who also came out after his career ended, always maintained that he was fired because MLB officials found out he was gay. (Although I remember thinking at the time, knowing nothing of the other issues, that Pallone was a really awful umpire, one of the worst in the league.)

Anyway, sometimes I think acceptance for a gay player is probably still pretty far away. Baseball has barely gotten to the point where it will tolerate gay *fans*, much less gay players. (Remember the lesbian couple who were ejected from Dodger Stadium a few years back?)

On the other hand, maybe we're getting there. I remember around the time of the infamous Brendon Lemon column (http://www.out.com/html/edletter90.html), some reporter asked Mike Timlin if he would have a problem playing with a gay teammate. His response was something like, "I already have, knowingly, and everything was fine."

[delias man]

I can only imagine what it would be like if that first player was a Giant. You see how shameful the crowd at DS was towards Barry during 2007. I think it would be 100X worse and for reasons like that alone, it may never happen.

The fan base at many MLB stadiums would not be able to handle it.

[Maris]

A lot of pro athletes are gay, including some who are very well-known. It's career suicide to announce it while one is playing, so I don't see it happening until after society as a whole has shifted towards a more tolerant perspective.

The dam-breaker will probably be when you have at least one former star player in the NFL and MLB comes out of the closet and blows people's minds.

[Jon Weisman]

Eric, sometimes though, I wonder whether some of the fear feeds upon itself. There's this assumption of zero tolerance - but then you see the Torre quotes. I think even one-by-one statements of tolerance would go a long way to emboldening even those who are heterosexual but afraid of drawing attention to the issue.

[Jon Weisman]

Delias man -

I think there's a certain feeling many have that booing Barry was harmless. I don't think giving the first openly gay player the same treatment would be seen the same way.

And in Los Angeles, I suspect that such a player, even if a Giant, would get lots of support.

[Jon Weisman]

Maris -

If the player's talented enough to be an impact player, it won't be career suicide if he announces he's gay while he's active. Who's going to defend cutting someone who is productive for those reasons?

[Jon Weisman]

Frank McCourt on MLB Network's Hot Stove show today, re: Manny Ramirez

"Well hopefully we are going to sign him soon. That is certainly our intention. You know Manny had a tremendous impact on L.A. and made great contributions to our run at the end of last season. I've seldom seen a situation like his with our fans. I mean that love affair was tremendous. It's our intention to try and bring Manny back. We've tried to do that, been unsuccessful to date, but that doesn't mean we are going to stop trying."

[Jon Weisman]

Cycle!

[Eric Enders]

I never thought about this until today, but seems like the Dodgers, more than any other team, are connected to many aspects of this issue.
- There's Torre's comments, first of all.
- Glenn Burke and Billy Bean were Dodgers.
- The controversy about the ejected lesbian fans
- Dodger legend Mike Piazza becomes the only ballplayer ever to call a press conference to announce that he's heterosexual.
- The sad saga of Tommy Lasorda and Tommy Jr.

[Xeifrank]

I think they should be asking ballplayers, not only managers, if they want to get a feel for how an openly gay ballplayer (no pun intended) will be accepted.
vr, Xei

[MC Safety]

Yikes. First post at the new spot was a massive LAT. I'll need to get back into commenting shape.

[Phenomenal Smith]

The Yankee Stadium bleachers were, and likely still will be in the new park, notorious for homophobic chanting toward opposing players.

The Giants have had LBGT Nights at AT&T Park the past few seasons and there seems to have been little repercussion to it.

[Bob Hendley]

On the US-Mex soccer match, I suppose we could have really tricked them by scheduling the game in El Paso. I believe it is snowing right now in Juarez - can someone look out the window?

[Eric Enders]

"I believe it is snowing right now in Juarez - can someone look out the window?"

It snowed briefly this morning, but right now it's partly cloudy, about 50 degrees, with really extreme winds.

[MC Safety]

Has the "Family Blog" label been removed since the move, Jon?

[Eric Enders]

It's interesting how many people assume "gay" and "family" are mutually exclusive.

[Jon Weisman]

Delias -

Oh, I agree with you - it is over the top. The difference, I think, is the context of the situation would bring closer scrutiny to intolerant behavior.

[Jon Weisman]

MC Safety 3:33 p.m.

No.

[Phenomenal Smith]

Back in 1997, I attended a Padres game at Qualcomm against the Giants. A Padres fan chanted the same thing that was on the shirt that Delias Man described in his post.

For the entire game.

For close to three hours.

And people wonder why I hate the Padres.

[cargill06]

Didn't Joe say A-Rod had a "single white female obsession" with Jeter? I don't know what it has to do with anything, but it was just a really weird way to describe it.

It would be a little awkward showering with a gay guy on your team. But than again it would be awkward showering with any guy. But for some reason I don't know why I think I'd be a little uncomfortable in that situation. In every other aspect I would think most players would treat him like one of the guys.

[Keven C]

First, a bad joke ... at least now you can put the rainbow picture back up top.

Now, a serious point ... it's certainly long overdue for openly gay players in any sport to be accepted. Unfortunately as we're seeing with the issue of perfomance-enhancing drugs, for example, I don't see today's world of baseball as being ahead of the curve on issues that affect society at large.

I think all team sports suffer from the "locker room" mentality. Wasn't it just a week or two ago when some Italian soccer coach claimed there were no homosexuals in all of Italian soccer? Hmm. None? Really?

I think if acceptance can come in the individual sports -- say, tennis or golf -- then perhaps it can spread to the team sports.

I wouldn't hold my breath. I think it will be a while.

[SaMo]

On second read, what else is Torre going to say to that question?

"Yeah, Larry, I have a big problem with gays in the clubhouse. I won't feel comfortable showering in the players locker room for fear that one of the fellas might be checking out my tight 67-year-old butt?"

I have no idea how Torre or anybody else truly feels about gays in sports, but they certainly aren't going to state their true feelings to Larry King.

Or to Katie Couric, as A-Rod demonstrated.

[Tripon]

Didn't Joe say A-Rod had a "single white female obsession" with Jeter? I don't know what it has to do with anything, but it was just a really weird way to describe it.

Posted by: cargill06 | February 10, 2009 at 03:42 PM

It was from Torre's book, and its likely Torre wasn't the one saying it. Verducci's got a lot of quotes from a lot of different people.

[delias man]

You would hope there would be more scrutiny - but I would have to see it to believe it.

I have a real disdain towards Joe/Jane Dodger Fan at DS. I have gone to way too many games the last 13 years and seen way too many things. There are 29 other stadiums the same way, and it is a shame that is the case.

Nevermind teammates and coaches, it would be so hard still in 2009.

[jim hitchcock]

I can't decide whether Bob's new handle reminds me more of Painless Peter Potter or Sorrowful Jones.

[MC Safety]

I was just curious in general. I haven't checked in a bit.

[Jon Weisman]

SaMo 3:44 p.m.

You may be right, but Torre certainly could have found a way to give a less invested answer than "I just hope that an active player, if that’s the case, can feel free to do that." I don't see any reason to question his sincerity.

[Eric Enders]

SaMo 3:44-
That's an important point. Torre basically had to say what he said. Hopefully he actually means it. (In fairness to him, I have no reason to believe he doesn't.)

[I Should Be Working But...]

I'm not a regular poster here - but I do read it regularly - a great sports blog with heart, intelligence, & integrity....

This is an important subject - and both less and more challenging that one might assume. I think Jon's right - we are closer to the kind of general acceptance that Torre is talking about. But at the same time, it will definitely take someone with inner strength and personal courage to come out in this context. It won't have to be someone who's a superstar - the comparisons to Jackie Robinson are tempting - but a better comparison might be to Curt Flood. Someone with an established career who's ready to take a stand and say "no more" - regardless of the consequences. It's not that I don't think they'll survive professionally - they most likely will - and in fact, with the era of 24/7 cable news & sports, they'll have a book contract, documentaries, and other ventures that may open up for them. But at the same time, teams are a lot like families - in fact the whole major leagues is. It's not really that big - and for most players, I would think that the community of professional baseball players is like any extended family - a place where acceptance is critical to one's own sense of self. And - just like coming out in one's own home - coming out as a pro player would put all that on the line. The stress one goes through in situations like that cannot be overstated - suicides among gay teens who come out and are rejected by their families is waaaaay beyond their straight counterparts - to do so would in such a public venue would probably only add to stress. But as I said above, I think there's no doubt but that Jon's right - acceptance would follow, no matter how hard the road - both from players and from fans.

One addendum on the whole "family" issue: a marriage therapist I know says that these days the only people who really take marriage seriously are gays :) So, yes - those who don't know it yet - gays have families too, with or without Prop 8.....

[cargill06]

From Neyer's blog regarding the BP pojected standings:

"And in the National League West, the Manny-less Dodgers finish six games behind the first-place Diamondbacks."

[Eric Enders]

I Should Be Working -- please comment more often!

[Jon Weisman]

Welcome and thanks, "I Should Be Working." And no, you shouldn't :)

[Paul Scott]

"Has the "Family Blog" label been removed since the move, Jon?"

Not sure what that means. I haven't seen anything here I wouldn't feel comfortable with my child reading. Maybe you could expand your question.

To the various "It's what Torre had to say" - I don't agree. Certainly, Torre would have been an idiot to go "Rocker" on LKL if that is what he feels, but there is a big gap between not being hostile and being openly welcoming. Torre could easily have gotten away with a less pro-gay statement - something neutral or even using the various code words such as "respect for all beliefs" that are, in fact, designed to legitimize bigotry while pretending to be respectful. Torre's words were succinct, direct and unequivocal. I can think of no reason to doubt it is what he believes - surprising to me that it is.

[underdog]

I agree totally, Paul.

And I also should be working.

Also, did anyone catch McCourt's interview on MLB.com?
Highlights (ahead of time I guess) posted here:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2009/02/frank-mccourt-t.html

[Alex41592]

Frank McCourt is on MLB Hot Stove right now.

[Kevin Lewis]

Didn't Jon already quote McCourt?

[MC Safety]

It was an ultra poor choice of words. I sincerely apologize. If you would just let me crawl back into my homophobic little hole. Sheesh.

[VA Blueblood]

A fellow named Richard Greenberg wrote a play a few years back titled "Take Me Out," which explored what would happen if someone like Derek Jeter was suddenly outed. Here's a quick overview for those who are interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_Me_Out_(play)

I don't necessarily think that the hatred would be overwhelming from the fans--at least not as terrifying as what Jackie Robinson must have faced on a day-to-day basis. However, I do think that the overwhelming machismo culture of most locker rooms (and not just in pro sports) would be a considerable obstacle. Baseball is a team sport after all, and all it would take would be a small consortium of homophobes to make life miserable for a co-worker. I think that is probably the first thing that crosses the mind of current gay major leaguers when reading articles like the one above.

The other major disincentive to coming out would be marketing potential. If you take a superstar like a Jeter or a Beckett, their marketing base is national. Even if they became the poster-child for all products homosexual, that wouldn't come close to the millions they make from Gatorade, Nike, etc. So a gay superstar has literally millions of reasons to stay in the closet.

Then you take your B-list marketable players, guys like Ethier or Youkilis or in my neck of the woods, Ryan Zimmerman. These guys have tons of local advertising dollars to pull, from car dealerships to furniture stores and the like. I assume that if these guys came out, the celebrity of being the first out-of-the-closet MLB player would still not offset the losses of potential marketing dollars within a smaller market. I could be wrong about this, but I also don't think that these types of players would necessarily want to "risk it."

So now you're on to your C-list. Potential up-and-comers or downslope veterans. Well, up-and-comers (think DeWitt in LA) hope to someday be the B or A list marketing opportunities, so they don't want to chance it. Which leaves us with downslope veterans, like your Nomars or Variteks or Randy Johnsons. These guys are usually looking to a) coach; b) broadcast; c) do something totally different. If they're looking to do the first two, well, why risk bucking the culture? They are looking to capitalize on their celebrity, not risk it. So now you're down to just downslope veterans looking at life beyond baseball who would be the only ones in all of baseball with no actual dollars to lose by coming out of the closet.

And it would still have to be one with tremendous inner courage.

Too bad Jeff Kent isn't gay.

[Kevin Lewis]

MC,

I never got the impression you were being attacked

[Bleacher Seats]

Jon, now I understand the rainbow post...just kidding..

[Sam DC]

BH: "If Torre thinks baseball should be more tolerant, good for him but professional sports really remains the last barrier in terms of acceptance."

This sort of jarred me. I understand the point and the assumption about the locker room culture that animates it, but sitting here under my Jackie Robinson poster with my son, I just don't want to accept it. I want to believe that baseball can still lead.

[Marty Leadman (LAT)]

The Dreyfuss Affair has been sitting on my shelf for a few years. I guess I should get around to reading it.

[trainwreck]

There are far more barriers than sports.

[JJ24]

I was in the bookstore the other day and read part's of Billy Bean's autobiography. He did mention how supportive some of his teammates were when they did find out - specifically Trevor Hoffman and Brad Ausmus. I found an 10 year old article from the NY Times that refers to their reaction:

http://tinyurl.com/beanreaction

[Sam DC]

When Tom Kenderson came out, he got some worthwhile support. Wasn't easy, but it came.

[underdog]

Not trying to get political but I will say that there were a lot of people, even some of my peers, who for years said we'd never see a Black president in our lifetime except in the occasional movie. So never say never.

Marty, I wonder if it holds up. I thought it hysterical when I first read it but who knows if it still works as well now. I read his script for it more recently and it worked okay but some of the farcical elements were a bit dated. But should still be a fun read. I enjoyed The Deal, too. (Should see the movie I guess.)

[underdog]

Nice to see Ausmus' comments from way back when, in that article linked by JJ. Heartening even.

[immouch]

i just read an excellent baseball book, "odd man out," by matt mccarthy, a former A-ball pitcher for the angels. the story is sorta a Ball Four take on the minors, circa 2003, and there are many anecdotes about many aspects of minor league life.
but one thing that comes through, clearly, is that gay bashing (and, oddly, gay "play" by at least a few players) is central to pro baseball culture. i'd love to think torre (and others posting in this thread) are correct, and a gay player could come out without being smothered by hatred, but i fear that's still in the future.
that said, i'm rooting.

[Eric Enders]

The most horrifying quote from JJ24's link:
"...Ausmus, an All-Star catcher..."

[trainwreck]

Maybe this is why we signed Ausmus.

[bokonon42]

I know nothing about baseball players, so it's pretty stupid to think I can guess what they really think. But--these are mostly young guys, just by the nature of the thing. What are the chances that they're really that far removed from what most young people think of homosexuality? I don't doubt that stupid things would be said (how many Golf writers got themselves fired over super-funny lynching jokes last year?), nor do I doubt that there'd be at least a vocal (and likely obnoxious) minority. But I think it probably wouldn't be as hard as some here seem to.

I also think that no gay player has a positive obligation to come out to Tony Jackson. If the Timlin story is representative, if there are gay players who are comfortable talking to teammates (or particular teammates) about it, that's fine. People should only talk about things they want to talk about. Unless they're under oath, in which case they should take the fifth amendment, as Miguel Tejada reminded us this morning.

[Jon Weisman]

Sam DC, 5:08 p.m

Good one !

[Eric Enders]

bokonon, I don't want to generalize too much, but I think most people who've spent time in them would agree that baseball clubhouses tend to be cesspools of ignorance and intolerance. I think that's fair to say. Gay jokes and slurs -- sometimes playful, sometimes just mean -- are de rigueur. Misogyny is also rampant. I've witnessed it multiple times. Basically these are guys who, because of their extreme talent, have never been made to act like grown-ups. There are many exceptions, of course, but basically a baseball clubhouse is like a less mature frat house.

[D4P]

(BOLD)The East Valley Tribune's Scott Bordow reports that the Dodgers "could make a big splash in the next 72 hours."

"Don’t be surprised if the Dodgers not only sign Manny Ramirez but Orlando Hudson as well," writes Bordow. It sounded like speculation at first, but Bordow confirmed to me in an e-mail that he heard the news from a "pretty reliable source."(BOLD)

[Eric Enders]

That's a Phoenix paper, so one suspects his "pretty reliable source" might be someone in the Hudson camp. That or the DBacks.

I like Orlando Hudson, but I don't want to give up the #17 pick for him.

[Jesse from SC]

Even though it is from a paper outside the market, do you think there is any truth to this? Could we sign both Manny AND Hudson?

http://valleysports.freedomblogging.com/2009/02/10/look-out-for-the-dodgers/

ARGH!! these rumors are driving me crazy!

[Tripon]

There are many exceptions, of course, but basically a baseball clubhouse is like a less mature frat house.

Posted by: Eric Enders | February 10, 2009 at 05:24 PM

But then people in the frat house act much more mature when they interview for a job.

I'm sure the person who eventually comes out with face a lot of discrimination. I just don't think people would care that much after the initial row.

[Bob Hendley]

I felt like the O-Dawg boat sailed when we reupped the Beard. At that time I thought Ned would use the other than Manny money for a frontline SP. Since that didn't happen maybe its burning a hole in his pocket. But, I agree, don't see the major improvement that would justify the bucks and pick (and the injury risks), given in house options.

[BHSportsguy]

Isn't it just Hudson's people who keep pushing this potential deal? While the Dodgers have not said no like other teams in regards to certain players like Manny, I have not heard anything that indicates officially that they would make this move for Hudson.

And I doubt an Arizona paper has a source re the Dodgers are going to be signing Manny in the next 3 days. Unless someone is talking too much at a local bar.

[immouch]

i'm usually against asking an established player to change positions, but i'd prefer the dodgers sign orlando cabrera to orlando hudson, and have cabrera play 2B... that way, if furcal were to get hurt - and, of course, we know, categorically, that never ever happens - we'd have a stand-in ready to go. everything i'm reading about our young SS types indicates they'd be overmatched...

[Tripon]

- Yeah, a Hudson signing is unrealistic, because it should be an either/or propitiation with Casey Blake and Orlando Hudson, and the Dodgers picked Blake months ago.

- Signing Hudson would give the D'Backs the Dodgers first rounder.

- It would not only block Blake DeWitt, but also Tony Aberu, and Ivan DeJesus Jr. The Dodgers should not try to actively block their prospects from helping the team. You sign free agents because you lack the depth at a certain position. You don't load up and block your best prospects from playing.

[Dodgers49]

Sheets' injury not return ticket to Crew

>> Because Sheets originally suffered that injury in a Brewers uniform, Milwaukee may need to foot the bill for the surgery and perhaps the subsequent rehabilitation.

Brewers officials were consulting with Sheets' agent, Casey Close, and Major League Baseball officials to resolve the matter of who pays for the procedure and its aftermath. <<

## Sheets will turn 31 in July. He is a Type A free agent who declined Milwaukee's arbitration offer, but unless he signs with another team before the First-Year Player Draft on June 9-10, the Brewers will not receive the compensatory picks they were expecting. ##

http://tinyurl.com/dhm36n

[Eric Enders]

A Hudson signing would be an indication that the Dodgers are giving up on Hu AND DeJesus AND Abreu AND DeWitt. Giving up on all four. As spotty as Ned's record is WRT young players, I still be pretty surprised if they did that.

[Tripon]

Posted by: immouch | February 10, 2009 at 05:39 PM

We still have Hu, and DeJesus as back up SS options. There's no reason to look outside for back ups, unless the Dodgers have to.

[BHSportsaguy]

Yes, but Tripon, Hudson for a year by itself is not a bad deal because he would be better if healthy than DeWitt at 2B. DeJesus, Hu and Abreu would be served better by another year in the minors.

Now when you throw in the Blake signing, DeWitt apparently being the 2B right now and already having Loretta, Castro, Hu and Abreau all battling for 2 spots, then, it probably isn't a good deal.

So in the end, I would say don't sign him but not because he is blocking anyone, because Hudson would help the Dodgers more in 2009 than anyone already on the roster.

[Jeff]

Billy Bean has some horrible experiences as a gay ball player, hiding his relationship with his lover. The worst
time was the day he had to go to the ballpark in San Diego and play on the day of his lover's funeral, because he had no excuse not to show up. He and his lover could not be seen together in public. I hope MLB does have openly gay ball players someday but I suspect they will have a female manager before gays are accepted. An openly gay ballplayer would have to accept a lot of abuse. When Bean's book came out, a former teammate of his was quoted as saying that Bean would never have made it to the major's if he had been known to be gay because he would have had a lot more talent as a ballplayer to make up for that fact.

[Eric Enders]

If Hudson were signed to a one-year deal, then it wouldn't necessarily be an indication of giving up on the young guys. However, although I haven't followed Hudson's demands this offseason, I'd be surprised if he's willing to take a one-year deal. (If he was going to do that, wouldn't he just accept the DBacks' arbitration offer, which would probably be his best bet for a good salary?)

[Tripon]

Posted by: BHSportsaguy | February 10, 2009 at 05:43 PM

I don't know how much Hudson would help the Dodgers though. His numbers with the Blue Jays are mediocre, and he didn't show anything offensively until he traded to the D'Backs who play in a hitters stadium.

Its true that Hudson is a better player than DeWitt this year, but I just don't think he's going to be that much better than DeWitt this year, and I rather develop DeWitt now so he can be useful for the next five years, and constantly stash him away while the Dodgers sign stopgap veterans.

[JRSarno]

I don't know that the signing of the Beard categorically invalidates the pursuit of O Hudson. I'm not necessarily a proponent of the move, but just talking theoretically, Hudson could play 3B or SS and could also be valuable if Furcal, for example, has lingering health issues re: his reconstructed back. At present, i think the main issue is that he'd be a roadblock for Blake DeWitt.....

[Dodgers49]

McCourt speaks: per Diamond Leung:

>> in our contract with Joe there is a confidentiality provision that he can't be writing a book about the Dodgers or our team, so that was very important to us. <<

http://blogs.pe.com/prosports/mlb/dodgers/

[El Lay Dave]

Who will have it more difficult: the first openly gay baseball player or the next non-union player? ALL of the other players shunned the "scab", didn't they?, in an openly organized fashion. The gay player will have some allies from the start, and those that want to treat him badly will not have group support.

Or I could be hopelessly naïve.

[Tripon]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3898085

Angels and Aberu talk one year deal.

[El Lay Dave]

I don't see how giving up a first-rounder for signing a Type-A FA like Hudson for one year makes any sense. If you thought the player was good enough to commit to for several years, then losing the draft pick could be reasonable. The Dodgers don't need Hudson for several years, so I am against signing him.

[BHSportsguy]

Eric E: I was just going from the article, I think Hudson and Cruz both would reconsider their choices re refusing arbitration since that comp pick is stopping some teams from signing them right now.

El Lay Dave: Well w/o a strike, I think its near impossible for a non-union player to be on a MLB roster unless he was on MLB 40 man roster back whenever Herges and some other guys played.

I am not a labor expert but I think the CBA prohibits teams from hiring non-union players outside of those few exceptions.

But I think the days of the hard line union guys is past so I still think the openly gay player would have more difficulty than a non-union guy.

[Dodgers49]

Torre mentioned earlier that the Yankees tried putting a confidentiality provision in his contract but he refuse to accept it. I guess he had no choice if he wanted to manage the Dodgers.

[I Should Be Working But...]

Comparing someone not being a member of a union with someone who's gay seems a very curious construction - apples and oranges to say the least. And the players were called "scabs" because, in union nomenclature, that's what they were - they didn't choose to "opt out" of the union the way some - like John Ridley - have from the WGA, going what is called "financial core." They were replacement players, who got their jobs because they were non-union, and for the most part, I think, pretty much universally would have joined the union if they could have. Personally, I think the whole notion of a union when the base salary is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars is kind of silly - albeit necessary (in a way, what started as a real union under Miller has become more like a trade association). That said, I don't think there's any comparison at all - being anti-union doesn't get one shunned in a clubhouse really - but crossing a picket line does. And the first out gay will face far more in the way of harassment than any replacement player ever did.

[Tripon]

Torre mentioned earlier that the Yankees tried putting a confidentiality provision in his contract but he refuse to accept it. I guess he had no choice if he wanted to manage the Dodgers.

Posted by: Dodgers49 | February 10, 2009 at 06:02 PM

Or he didn't care to make a book about the Dodgers! o/~

[broken bones]

Glenn Burke invented the high five? Who's been vandalizing wikipedia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Burke