Letting Go

Two primary situations cause me to yell at my kids.

The first is fear of them getting hurt. Saturday, for example, while my wife worked, I took advantage of an invitation to a Staples Center suite and brought my kids there. The Clippers happened to be playing, but that wasn't why I was going. The reasons were to spend time with the friend who invited me, and to be in a confined space where I could patrol all three of my children.

Except you realize once you get there that the space isn't entirely confined. The Plexiglas in front of the suite is so low, a dachshund could see over it. That consterned me throughout the game, which I was hardly able to pay any attention to, though for the most part the kids were good.

Then, in the fourth quarter, while I held the baby, while my daughter gabbed with her schoolmate, my 4-year-old stood on the ledge to the right of the second row of seats, with a smile. And I could read his mind. He was going to try to jump and land on the ledge right in front of the first row of the suite, fronted only by that low window of Plexiglas. And if he didn't stick the landing, if he stumbled forward, he was going to tumble right out of the suite down to the level below.

I yelled his name. I screamed, "No! No! NO!!!" He took off in the air, and he landed on his two feet.

I practically dropped the baby - I laid him down with such haste that his head knocked against the base of a chair. I scrambled over the seats and grabbed my elder son before he got any other ideas.

I lectured him, sternly, emotionally, angrily, almost tearfully but most of all, hopelessly. I lectured him that he had to listen, that the word "No" was a no-holds-barred stop sign that he had to obey. It's a lecture that I've given him on a different scale hundreds of times now, over matters much less perilous, precisely because I wanted him to make sure he listened to me when it really mattered.

It doesn't work. I keep doing it, but it doesn't work. I don't remember ignoring my father hardly ever in my lifetime, but my son does it a number of times each day. After I finished with him, exasperated, I went to the back of the suite, trying to collect myself - and kicked a cabinet. (Even at a Clipper game, where exasperation is par for the course, this gets noticed.)

The frustration is getting to me. I know he's only 4. I know. I'm trying to do what the books and the sage and my head all tell me, with timeouts and 1-2-3 and not getting emotional. But this kid nearly leaped out of a suite without a net; before that he nearly rode his trike into a street. He's a wonderful boy, but he's got a mind of his own and then some. He has to have what he wants and do what he wants to do. And the fear that it churns inside me makes me lose it and yell at him, because nothing is working and I don't want him to end up in the hospital or worse.

The second reason I yell at my kids is out of impatience. If the previous scenario can at least in part be excused as selfless concern, this second situation is more selfish. Yes, I want the kids to brush their teeth the first time I ask, so that they get to bed on time and get enough sleep for the next school day, but I also want them to do it so that I can get to the things I need to do - like Dodger Thoughts, for example.

If I surrender to the kids, if I turn off the clock and just let the pace dictate the pace, it makes a huge difference. If I do all that, I relax. But it's not automatic. The baby is up by 6 a.m., and with that I'm on the clock, either at home or at work, until my 6-year-old daughter turns out her light at 8 or 8:15 p.m. That doesn't leave me much time to attend to the rest of my life. The pressure builds, and I have to make a conscious decision how to deal with it. Sometimes, it's hard to convince myself to surrender. One day it can feel so easy, and the next it feels so difficult.

Either way, I've already yelled at my kids more than my parents ever yelled at me. In that respect, I'm 180 degrees from the dad I want to be. I can't tell you how ashamed I am of this. I want these kids to be good people, but I have to be more willing to let them make more mistakes. I'm too demanding, too proactive, too protective, too paranoid. I need to toughen up, by letting go.

Over the past few years, I think I've already achieved this with the Dodgers. It takes the extreme to make me angry. I offer my opinion, I react, but mostly it's live and let live, hoping for the best, often settling for something less. Before I started this website, I think Dodger lows got to me more than the highs. Now, it's the reverse. The good moments truly elate me, the bad stuff goes away.

It's not a coincidence that since 2002, the year that Dodger Thoughts and my first child were both born, my kids became the real pennant race. But I have to accept that winning and losing are both inevitable. I don't want to be the brat kicking dirt at the umpire. I want to be the guy who accepts defeat with grace and calm and looks straight ahead to the next game.

Comments

[Eric Stephen]

1.  Jon, you have set a high standard here at Dodger Thoughts. Your best work seems to be when you pour your heart out, like this post.

[Jacob Burch]

2.  This is the Hour of Lead —
Remembered, if outlived,
As Freezing persons, recollect the Snow —
First — Chill — then Stupor — then the letting go.

Unrelated to the post content, but it's a top five favorite poem (and the inspiration of one of the more important albums of my life).

[TellMeTheScoreRickMonday]

3.  Great writing Jon. I'll be at a suite Monday night...now, sans kids (after reading your article). Glad to hear he's okay--I'm listening to you, too.

[milkshakeballa]

4.  Deep...great post Jon. This post and the post about your 40th bday last year are some of the most moving pieces I have read on the internet.

Thank you.

If any of my Dodger brothers are in interested in some Oakley sunglasses I was able to pick up quite a few today. Over 50-60% off, never been worn. Just email me @ jbraden@vsrlogistics.com.

[Dave G]

5.  Jon, thanks so much for the wonderful thoughts.

My grandmother passed away this morning. Her last thoughts, communicated to my mother last night, were simply: "my children have all been so good. Don't cry--be happy." This comes from the 90 year-old mother of 5 girls and 1 boy, who herself grew up in Karachi in what's now Pakistan, lost everything and moved to Delhi in 1948, and lived the last 15 years of her life here in LA--and all of her kids grew up to do great things themselves, and all of their kids (if I do say so) have done pretty well too. Her entire focus was not on her own imminent passing, but pride in her children and concern for their happiness.

So that's grandma. My dad passed away last year at 85, after a similarly full life. He was particularly interesting because he was an incredibly successful professional and bragged about his kids all the time to those outside the family--yet we were constantly berated at home because it seemed like every time we did something that was the slightest bit not HIS WAY, we'd get yelled at. Now, he was certainly a control freak and had insecurity issues, but it did mean that despite his incredible love for us, he was very hard to live with. It really doesn't sound like you're on this level, but his need for control really affected his relationships with the people closest to him.

I'm 25 and single, so I have no knowledge of parenting except for my experience. But I do know that for whatever reason, I cried more for my grandmother today than for my father last year.

[bhsportsguy]

6.  5 I'm sorry for both of your losses, I hope your memories of their love and best wishes for your future sustain you at this time.

[trainwreck]

7.  Thanks for letting us into your personal thoughts and issues, Jon.

I saw the movie Joshua this weekend. Between that and Jon's story, I am thinking I will not be ready for kids until I am 40.

[milkshakeballa]

8.  I feel the same way train!

Good news: I'm hearing Moser to UCLA along with a few other people!!

[trainwreck]

9.  8
The fact that he all of a sudden was willing to commit during the early signing period after his visit to UCLA was a good sign.

[Daniel Zappala]

10.  Jon, a couple thoughts. You are probably not doing as badly as you think. You're there for your kids, and you love them, and that's incredibly important. If you think you are being too harsh, you can change. I used to be a yeller when I was a new dad, but I decided I didn't want to be that way and (I think) I am much better at staying calm now. You will get more time to yourself as your kids get older, and then you will miss reading bedtime stories to them, when they instead want to talk to their friends on the phone.

I was talking to a friend yesterday, who had one docile child and two strong-willed ones. She is now grateful for the ones who were disobedient at an early age, because they ended up being very open with their feelings, so she is on really good terms with them. The one who was "easy", who always went along with what she said, is now realizing he wants to be his own person and takes no advice at all. Sometimes you don't know your blessings until much later in life.

Finally, I have learned that I can't do everything I want to do. If I try to do the most important things each day, then I can go to bed knowing that, although I let some stuff slide, it wasn't the most important things to me.

[jasonungar07]

11.  Yeah mine already walks away (sometimes) after thinking about it and he is 11 months. I have decided to embrace it. Keep up the good work Jon. I am sure you are doing great and it's going to be awesome to read what all the dads will be saying regarding this post. There is nothing for me to add other than I appreciate a glimpse into your life and this site is top notch and I love it.

[Eric Enders]

12.  Stuff like this is why I read Dodger Thoughts.

[adamclyde]

13.  In my recollection, my father raised his voice only twice at me. It was well deserved. The fact that I've done that untold times at my kids is deeply disturbing. I don't want to. And, like you mentioned, it's really disappointing and embarrassing.

Then, I asked my dad recently how he was able to stay calm so much when we were kids. He was kind of amused because in his estimation, he yelled too much at us when we were kids.

thankfully, my recollection was different than his. So I'm hopeful that if I can improve, my children's recollection of their relationship with me will be equally positive.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think if we are generally trying to be restrained, our kids remember the positive and seem to forget the negative. Or at least that's how I comfort myself in my parenting mediocrity... Thanks for your words and example...

[D4P]

14.  This post highlights some of the reasons why I don't want to have kids in the first place.

I know people with kids usually say that the benefits are worth the costs. While I am sure that some people really feel that way, I also tend to think that some people say that because they don't want to face and/or admit the alternative. They love their kids and realize they can't undo having them, but some part of them kinda wonders what it would have been like if they had chosen a different path in life.

Knowing myself as well as I do, I am quite comfortable believing that the costs would outweigh the benefits, and that I place too much value on my autonomy and freedom (especially with respect to how I spend my time) to be happy giving that up in exchange for having a kid or kids to take care of. Plus, I tend to feel like I get many of the benefits of having kids from animals instead, which is particularly true because I like animals more than kids. (And when the cats are being annoying, I can just put them outside, something you can't really do with a kid).

On a related note: my wife and I have spent the past 5 or so years watching all of our friends have kids, and pretty much losing our friendships in the process. It hasn't been fun.

[Penarol1916]

15.  Your 4-year old sound a lot like my youngest who is now 3. Yelling was pretty much the worst thing to do with him as he would hide face and refuse to listen. I think I get my yelling from my mother, who used to yell all of the time. Frankly, the kid who is the hardest to keep from yelling at is my 11-year old daughter. Part of it is just the fact that I feel she is being spoiled by my wife and mother-in-law and it just feels.

14. I believe that you are right that some people do regret having kids because of the the loss of autonomy, and I think for some people it just wasn't the right time, or they just don't have the type personality for which it would ever have been the right time. I think the key is to know yourself well enough to make a good decision and to be comfortable with what you decide no matter what. As for losing your friends, I had the opposite situation. I had kids about 5-years before any of my other friends did, and lost them all at once. I wonder which one is harder, the dripping away of one set of friends at a time, or the ripping off the band-aid of losing them all at once.

[D4P]

16.  I had kids about 5-years before any of my other friends did, and lost them all at once

Did you end up making friends with other people (especially, other people with kids), or did you just not have any friends at all?

[CanuckDodger]

17.  14 -- I have found that if you don't have kids, and don't want them, it is best not to say anything about kids unless you are quite sure you aren't being heard or read by anybody who does have kids. It's just begging for trouble, really.

[Penarol1916]

18.  16. My wife had a lot of already parent friends, since she was already a parent when I met her, and I spend some time with them, but frankly, I'm not friends with them. I'm really bad at making friends, so I'd say I don't really have friends at all. Which is okay, because frankly, I'm not sure where I would fit them into my schedule, because I really enjoy the stuff I do with my kids and I wouldn't want to cut any of it out for friends.

[D4P]

19.  17
I know what you mean. It's a very sensitive subject. In my field (land use and environmental planning), it seems pretty clear that just about every problem we're trying to solve is exacerbated by increases in population, such that "the best thing" one can probably do from the standpoint of protecting the environment, avoiding climate change, etc. etc. etc. is to not have kids.

But that's a message most people (including many people who are otherwise committed to "green" causes) don't want to hear, and it's a message that has a good chance of bringing about much harm to the messenger.

Most of the world (including the US) looks at the decision to have as many kids as you want as a personal, private decision over which other people should have no influence.

[CanuckDodger]

20.  19 -- A "sensitive subject?" Oh, that is an understatement. Just saying "I don't want kids" will make some people hate you, especially mothers. And unless it is praise, nobody wants to hear anything from other people about THEIR kids. And NEVER offer parenting advice if you don't have kids yourself. You could be right, but nobody wants to hear it -- not from you.

[D4P]

21.  20
All true. I never offer parenting advice, and can't really imagine a scenario in which I would. For one thing, no one ever asks me for it, for which I'm grateful. I think the notion that there's a "right way" to parent such that problems will either be avoided or eliminated when they arise is probably misguided anyway.

Not unlike marriage, parenting is not something to be mastered, but rather something to just work through, one day at a time, with much need for patience, tolerance, and grace.

[OhioBlues12]

22.  Great post Jon! I can really identify with the struggle you are having with yourself. I have a 10 yr old stepdaughter and I, too, feel that I may raise my voice too often and it is something that makes me wonder why I do it.

My dad was the same way with me, often yelling at me in frustration. His tones were more of exasperation rather than anger and now I find myself using those same tones with my stepdaughter. I used to tell myself that I wouldn't be that way with my children, but the reaction is so instinctive that I do it without even thinking. My stepdaughter is great in many ways but her tendancy to move at her own pace without regard to time or schedules infuriates me to no end. I really wonder what it is that goes through her mind in the mornings as she meanders through the same routine to get ready for school as if it is the first time she has ever done it. Her disregard for her possessions also gets me going as she is apt to leaving socks and shoes just lying about knowing full well that we have a dog that loves to chew up such things.

I wonder sometimes if my approach would be different with my own son or daughter as opposed to my stepdaughter and it will certainly be something that I will have to be cognizant of if we happen to have another child. As a stepfather I feel that I ride a fine line, though that line is disappearing with time, and that I am depowered sometimes as my wife trumps me in certain situations. I am already preparing for the day when she says that she doesn't have to listen to me because I am not her father. I have supported everthing she has done and pushed her to try to do things the right way since she was 4 years old and it will be crushing to hear those words.

This is why I love coming here to read the posts, it is more than just a mutual affection for a baseball team. It is the realization that others are facing the same struggles that I face and a reminder that I should try even harder to break bad habits that I let myself fall into.

[fernst2937]

23.  (14) With our friends who made the same decision you made we made an effort not to talk about the kids all the time.

Our friends also seem to understand that having a family changed the demands on our time, and they adjusted to our situation

The friendships have changed but continue to endure.

[Penarol1916]

24.  20. I think most people don't want to hear parenting advise from other people regardless of whether or not the person giving the advise is a parent. I think D4P is right in that parenting is like marriage in that each relationship is very complex and difficult to assess from outside when one is not intimately familiar with both personality and their dynamic. That is why I refuse to give advise on either even when asked.

[OhioBlues12]

25.  D4P - I used to have very similar feelings regarding kids, in that I never pictured myself having any and I certainly wasn't very "kid-friendly". The personal journey that I have been through after dating and subsequently marrying a woman with a child has been great for me. I am not saying that it is for everyone but it really allowed me to grow as a person and I have benefitted tremendously. Though, I will say that my stepdaughter is probably the only child that could've melted my icy exterior toward children at the time. She is just charming that way.

[Ken Noe]

26.  0 Jon, expect a big change anytime now. My independent handful of a four-year-old turned into the most fun five-year-old on earth. He's now the coolest 21 year-old Dodger fan on earth.

FWIW, we raised quite a few eyebrows in the family stopping at one child. Someone's always there to disapprove, whatever the choice.

[D4P]

27.  23
I think our friends with kids do make some effort to talk about other things, but part of the problem is that when we're together, their kids dominate the encounter whether the parents intend for them to or not. If the kids are awake, they're running around making noise and being distracting. Or, one or both of the parents is involved in feeding them. If it's time for the kids to go to bed, one or both of the parents is involved in bathing them, reading bedtime stories, etc. Plus, the kids don't fall asleep right away, so one or both of the parents has to go in and be with the kid for long periods of time. It makes it difficult to really engage in conversations and such.

We feel like our friends our pretty much gone, and have been replaced by other people that we don't have nearly as much in common with anymore. They have been transformed from bright, intelligent, thoughtful people to virtual slaves who don't really have lives of their own. It's probably not fair for me to feel this way, but I kind of feel betrayed by them and a little resentful.

[Penarol1916]

28.  22. You sound a lot like me with my daughter, of course, since her father was never in the picture I ended up adopting her so I at least have the legal papers to refute that claim. But since I was not there from the beginning, there is a lot that I am overruled on when it comes to her that is not the case with my two sons, it makes things somewhat awkward.

[Penarol1916]

29.  27. They can't do a night with a sitter? My biggest problem with my friends is that most of them live far away and I just can't travel to DC, San Francisco, or New York on a whim without the kids and I don't really want to subject my friends to my kids or my kids to my friends who don't really care for kids. It's not fair for either person. On those rare occassions that I am able to get together with them, it's usually just for a lunch while they're in town and it's a lot of fun, but I really don't think that it's enough to keep the friendships going.

[D4P]

30.  They can't do a night with a sitter?

Two of our friends in particular can't bear to be apart from their kids. The mother is especially unable to cut the cord, even for an hour or so.

[Penarol1916]

31.  My wife was like that for a while, but I think that the bigger problem was that our sitter is either her mom or one of her sisters and she always felt guilty using them or for being gone for more than an hour or two (which has really hurt when we've gone to weddings), and she is just now starting to trust other sitters to watch the kids.

[CanuckDodger]

32.  27 -- "They have been transformed from bright, intelligent, thoughtful people to virtual slaves who don't really have lives of their own."

Absolutely. I have seen it often. People with university degrees in literature all of a sudden never have time to read a book that isn't a "children's book." People who used to see serious films and follows good TV series, and could talk engagingly about them, one day don't know anything outside of Sesame Street and SpongeBob SquarePants, or whatever its called. It's like the people you thought you knew were, out of the blue, replaced by pod people from Invasion Of The Body Snatchers.

[Ken Arneson]

33.  Jon, I can totally empathize.

20 One thing I've learned from parenting that I didn't know before I became a parent is that it's the child that dictates what kind of parent you're going to be, far more than the other way around. Your parenting philosophies go out the window once that reality hits you. That's why outside parenting advice usually isn't welcome. Whatever you think the parent is doing wrong, well, the parent would probably rather not be doing it that way, either.

My first kid is straight out of the textbooks--you scold her in a calm voice with a rational explanation, and she feels guilty and stops doing whatever she was doing. Oh, this parenting thing is easy, I thought.

My second kid was the complete opposite. Calm, rational explanations are utterly useless--they flow off her like water off a duck's back. She's a creature of emotion, very empathic, and if I want a lesson like "don't jump off ledges" to sink in with her, I have to get angry with her. She needs that transfer of emotion, to know that I'm angry, before she gets it.

People who see me getting angry with her are often surprised--I am usually the calmest person in any room I'm in. But that's what works, so that's the role I play. Believe me, I'd prefer the rational expanation path any day of the week.

Now I've got a third kid, and I'm figuring out a completely new set of rules about what works and what doesn't. Parenting is the ultimate improv class.

[Jon Weisman]

34.  27 - I see very little of my pre-kid friends, but that the fault is mutual. It's hard for us to give our friends our full attention, much harder for us to go out rather than stay in, but I found that my friends really struggled to meet us halfway. Whatever effort I made to keep the connection, they made less. They're good people, but they were in effect more insistent on keeping the friendship going on their terms. It's a two-way street.

I may be speaking out of turn here, but is your resentment something they sense, that exacerbates the problem?

[Jon Weisman]

35.  29 - For some of us, a sitter is a very expensive treat.

[Jon Weisman]

36.  I do have one good friend who has stuck with us. We used to go out all the time - now he has been coming to our house regularly for dinner for the past six years. He hangs out with us while we put the kids to bed, and then we spend the rest of the night talking politics, etc.

[D4P]

37.  People with university degrees in literature all of a sudden never have time to read a book that isn't a "children's book."

Ironically, one of our male friends with 2 new kids is getting a PhD in English Lit at Duke, and the female has a law degree. But now if seems like their brains are wasting away. The female (who instigated the having kids thing) shocked us recently when she said that she had nothing going on in her life.

[Bob Timmermann]

38.  I think Jon should hire the Timmermann/Shimmin Babysitting Agency.

There would be pleated pants, C-SPAN, and bemused looks all around.

[D4P]

39.  I may be speaking out of turn here, but is your resentment something they sense, that exacerbates the problem?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think they couldn't have helped but sensed a change in our attitude toward them. Like you, they typically stay in now instead of going out, which means that our interactions are almost always us going to their house. We never initiate these interactions, in part because we want to let them work out their own schedules and don't want to pressure them. But it's also true that we don't enjoy being around them as much as we used to.

I agree with you that there's a 2-way street involved, and I willingly accept some of the blame. But the thing is: I don't really care whether we're friends with them or not anymore, so I don't feel like putting out much effort.

[Bob Hendley]

40.  I grew up in a family of eight children, top of the bottom four (top four claimed that they were part of a normal family until we came along). With my dad away often fighting wars and what not, and my mom working as well, we basically used the prison/military system for keeping control and raising our siblings. My eldest sister, Mitchell, bore the brunt of the active parenting, but kept the rest of us in line. As noted, I was in charge of the bottom four. My parents' time was precious and had to be reserved for one-on-one cuddling and the such, with my father threatening to "lower the boom" occasionally, to keep everything running smoothly. So, for example, if my younger brother had a problem, I needed to resolve it and only if I couldn't was it moved up the chain of command. Needless to say, we all ended up having only children, but they have a lot of aunts and uncles who are active in helping to raise them.

[adrian beltre]

41.  jon, what an amazing post. i believe the reason that my girlfriend and family members who aren't die-hard fans have become addicted to this site as i did previously, is because of posts like that. of course, it doesn't take long to love the dodgers when you always put them in context so eloquently. i'm checking in front buenos aires, argentina, and i wanted to get to a computer to send my thoughts to those affected bye the fires, to check in on the hot stove happenings, and of course, because i have no choice, i feel a distinct need for dodger thoughts in my daily life.

[Penarol1916]

42.  35. For us it is more psychologically expensive than monetarily.

[Disabled List]

43.  I have nothing to add to this discussion, other than to caution Jon against admitting publicly that he exposed his young children to the Clippers.

That might get the attention of Child Protective Services.

[Sushirabbit]

44.  I'm right there with Ken. First one listens (except when you tell him to get dressed: put on shirt, put on pants, etc, etc) Second one is the one with mind of his own. It doesn't help that the wife seems to take openess to the extreme and allows him to do all sorts of things. I've found him with a pairing knife in his hands, and the exasperation in my voice is really with her. I had a similar, though less scary, incident as yours. And I'm guessing you also feel bad about taking the 5 seconds it took to actively engage your friend. It seems sometimes that they wait till your fully engaged with someone else to "make their move". I suspect that this is part of their exploration of independence. And that out kids are pretty attuned to us, so when they get the chance to "fly" they take it.

My wife gets mad because I sometimes say Ben, will be the death of me. But I really think he'll give me a heart attack one day. I just hope it's a long time from now.

[CanuckDodger]

45.  And really, friendships withering because of children isn't the whole story. If you are single, the friendship often dies before the married couple has children. The marriage itself may be the friendship's death knell. I'm single, and have had friends who have gotten married and then started socializing only on the "couples level," excluding old friends who aren't married. And usually it is the wife who wants it that way and the husband just goes along.

[Penarol1916]

46.  37. It is also possible that she does have something going on their life but since it is kid-centric, she knows that you see no value in it and sees no point in bringing it up with you. When you have kids, your brain doesn't waste away, it just becomes focused on different things, and they are mostly things that won't interest anyone else, but that does not mean that your brain is mush. I don't think spending this weekend with my 5-year old son figuring out how we would live if the family moved to Russia like he wants was a brain dead or boring activity, but I certainly know that noone else would really want to hear about it or spend the time to do it.

[CanuckDodger]

47.  46 -- Your 5-year-old wants to live in Russia, and you have to spend time dealing with that? You see, this is why I could never be a parent. I'd be gouging out my eyes if I were in your shoes.:)

[D4P]

48.  46
I agree with what you say, but in this case, she was really expressing that her life was pretty dull and depressing. Which annoyed us, because she was the one who wanted to have kids in the first place. It's tempting to be petty in those situations, and think "You got what you wanted, so be happy with it."

[fordprefect]

49.  Jon, I feel for you, I always feel guilty for yelling at mine (now 15). But don't forget sometimes they need that klaxon call to bring them back from the brink of self-destruction!
And the need for that kind of yelling seems to have decreased (at least in my case). Take heart! In time, real conversations will take place and that independent streak in your 4-yr-old may blossom into a strong young mind.

[Penarol1916]

50.  47. But the thing is, it let me do something I really enjoy doing, exploring the way other people live. We went to the library to check out books and a movie about Russia and reading them. Frankly, I love to explain and explore things with people, it's just a lot of fun to me. But I'm just strange like that, because that same project would make my wife gouge out her eyes too.

[Penarol1916]

51.  48. It could be that she got into parenting without realizing what it really entailed. It goes back to your point about parenting and marriage. Some people get married thinking about the romance, but not the day-to-day issues of living with someone else. This friend seems to have wanted to become a parent based on the "romance" of parenting. Or it could just be post-partum depression, what do I know?

[ryu]

52.  The Wall Street Journal is reporting that the SEC has charged Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban with insider trading.

[Marty]

53.  I spent about a quarter of my life as a child grounded for some crime or another I committed. But there was a lot of temptation in my house.

One example was my dad was a hunter and liked to reload his shotgun shells rather than buy new ones so the garage always had kegs of gunpowder lying around. My brother and I used to amuse ourselves by trailing it up and down the driveway and then setting it on fire, usually ending in a conflagration of melting army men.

I got yelled at a lot and threatened a lot but always felt loved.

[CanuckDodger]

54.  I should also say that I think people who have children fall under the heading of "Life's Optimists." I have too strong a sense of all the things that could possibly go wrong to roll the dice that way -- you know, if I were married, or could reproduce like an amoeba.

[Penarol1916]

55.  54. Too true, to me, the rational choice is to not have children and having children is far and away the most irrational thing I have done, while sober anyway.

[D4P]

56.  51
I definitely think she didn't know what she was getting into, but even that really bothers me, because I think the downsides of having kids are so obvious and predictable that (in my mind) there's really no excuse for being surprised by them.

It may be a character flaw, but as a general rule, I have a hard time sympathizing with people who voluntarily do things that will bring about predictable hardships, when they could have just as easily not done those things. If you're going to make your bed, you can't complain about having to lie in it. But maybe I'm wrong.

[Jon Weisman]

57.  46 - Yes.

48 - I suspect that there are many Ph. D candidates who find their lives dull and depressing at some point during their studies.

In the end, there are no guarantees of happiness, but just because you're depressed at one point doesn't mean it was a mistake.

[Jon Weisman]

58.  56 - You seemed to choose to be a baseball and Dodger fan, and yet you complain all the time :)

[D4P]

59.  57
I agree. I don't mean to imply that pursuing an "intellectual" career and not having kids will necessarily bring about a "better", happier life than the alternative.

[D4P]

60.  58
:P

[Andrew Shimmin]

61.  38- I was at Disneyland a few months ago and saw several children tethered to their guardians. If that system can be adapted--tying the kid to a wall, or support pillar, say--I would totally be up for babysitting. I've still never held a baby, and am disinclined to break that streak, but we could get a little division of labor going and you could tend to Satchel.

[Bob Timmermann]

62.  I have two sisters-in-law who became tenured professors AFTER they had kids. I don't think that this is an either/or decision.

[Bill Simms]

63.  Jon, I can completely relate to your situation. I am one of the most calm and diplomatic people around, but when my children were younger, I yelled a lot. I look back and feel bad sometimes. I guess I just wasn't very good at dealing with the kind of frustration they caused me. For me, the yelling has decreased to very little these days (they're now 15 & 16). I think about the yelling and I'm confident that, while it might have been better had I been calmer, I was involved in all aspects of their lives (good and bad). I don't think they ever questioned my love and commitment.

[D4P]

64.  If that system can be adapted--tying the kid to a wall, or support pillar, say

The Shimmerman Shackle! I like it.

[Kevin Lewis]

65.  Wow, this is a great, honest conversation that can be so touchy sometimes. My wife and I mourned our loss of autonomy and plans for about 2 months when we found out we were having a child. Those first few days were really hard, and there were many tears. It's not that we did not want to have kids, but we were not planning on it right now, and it even lead me to put off some career choices for now. That being said, we cannot imagine our life without him. I know it is cliche, but it is true. We are grateful for his laughter and smile every single day. This is not without hardship. If anything, it is amazing to me how tried my patience can become when I wake up every night at 4am for a feeding time, or when he is not feeling well.

D4P, I appreciate your opinion on this topic, and I think it is quite valid. We had 4 couples have kids a few years before us, and it changed a lot of things for us as friends. I think I learned from that experience quite a bit. Now the majority of people that we spend time with do not have kids. This isn't intentional, but it just sort of happened. If anything, these are the people who have more flexibility to spend time together. We do make a point of going to their homes as well as having them over to ours. But, I must say the easiest part about it has been their willingness to take part in the kid activities...reading books, playing with him, feeding, changing diapers, etc. I am surprised at how eager they have been to do this, and it has made it quite wonderful for all of us involved.

[CanuckDodger]

66.  58 -- I know you weren't addressing me, Jon, but I don't really feel like I "chose" to be a baseball fan or a Dodger fan. But then I'm a Calvinist, so I disavow the possibility of free will and credit/blame an omnipotent deity for things like salvation, damnation and Dodger fandom.

[kinbote]

67.  0 Great post. I especially can relate to the "on the clock" aspect of parenthood/adulthood. From 5:30am to 7:30pm every single day, I have the same responsibilities, even more on weekends! Even though I complain--a lot--it's my choice and the reason I spend so much time with my family is that I'm the father, the protector. I am "manning up" in the most profound and important way possible. Old school dads think I'm too involved, but times have changed; most wives have jobs of their own.

Finally, as to the debate of whether to have kids or not, it's 100% a personal choice. There is not a single cell in my entire body that regrets my son. He is by far the greatest thing that's ever happened to me and it's not even close. People who don't have kids can never truly understand the bond that forms when you've cared for someone from the first second they were alive--even before. I still consider the day I heard my son's heartbeat to be the first day of being a parent.

[Penarol1916]

68.  62. That was my mother too. She started for PhD. after we first three started school, and had number 4 in the middle of doing her dissertation. She just got her full professorship this year.

[Andrew Shimmin]

69.  64- That you and Canuck are both so anti-kid is the best argument I know of to want them. Loathe as I am to pass along my DNA, it still makes me want to (or at least want to want to) be a father. I've heard that older foster kids are the most difficult to place--now I just have to find a woman willing to go that route. Which would be tough enough; adding on the criterion that she'd have to take me in the bargain makes it geometrically more complicated.

[dianagramr]

70.  Fantastic post Jon .... thanks for sharing!

65

There are many people out there who don't have kids of their own, but love to be honorary "aunt" or "uncle" to their friend's kids. I am one such person, and I absolutely ADORE my best friends two kids (I'm "Aunt Diane"). That being said, I know I don't have the temperment to be a full-time, 24/7 mom.

[Jon Weisman]

71.  66 - I think I might be with you on that!

[D4P]

72.  69
I advocate adopting someone who is older than you, and preferably wealthy.

[Kevin Lewis]

73.  66

TULIP

T- Total commitment to Dodger fandom
U- Unconditional angst
L- Limited patience for GM moves
I- Irresistible call to the ball park
P- Preservation of the possibility for success the next year.

[Penarol1916]

74.  67. While I love the bond I have with my kids, I also don't believe that everyone has it, or that it great enough for everyone that it makes them not regret anything that they are missing out on. Just like each kid is different, each person who could potentially be a parent is different, some will love it, and some will not. I think that it is a good thing for people who recognize that there is a good chance that they would not love it to decide to not have kids. Sure there is the chance that having a child and the bond will completely change them, but how much of a chance is it, really? I have no idea.

[Jacob Burch]

75.  You all are making me feel young. My mind can't figure out if that's a good thing

I have a hard time sympathizing with people who voluntarily do things that will bring about predictable hardships, when they could have just as easily not done those things.

I think that's fairly common, but I had an discussion/argument with a friend over it--in this case, the hardships of going to school without a lot of money.

I think that while it's a fairly common trend, it should be met with a bit of suspect--many of life's decisions come with highs and lows, and if a person is relating a low, there is a certain degree of sympathy or understanding to greet it with. It's not as though the person is saying "This entire part of my life is a bad thing," but that it's going through a bad phase, something we all have in common.

[Kevin Lewis]

76.  70

And believe me, you are appreciated for it!

[Bob Timmermann]

77.  Your state's laws may vary, but in California you can adopt a person as a child or an adult.

There was that really weird case in San Francisco a few years back where a woman was killed by a dog, which was owned by two criminal defense attorneys who had adopted one of their former clients, who was doing life in Pelican Bay, as their child.

[Bill Simms]

78.  D4P, I really love your statement:

"Not unlike marriage, parenting is not something to be mastered, but rather something to just work through, one day at a time, with much need for patience, tolerance, and grace."

It's a great observation, especially from someone who doesn't have children. I agree that no one wants your advice, but I also agree that they probably don't want advice from other parents either. I've seen my wife and I turn into hypocrites more than once on a parenting issue that we didn't fully understand until it happened to us.

[Penarol1916]

79.  65. I think that it is a testament to the strength of civility in this community that this discussion has not devolved into a series of posts calling each side, "mindless breeders" and "soulless harpies."

[CanuckDodger]

80.  69 -- DP4 is your nemesis so on him I understand where you're coming from, but what did ol' Canuck do -- apart from just refering to himself in the third person, which I already hate myself for?

[scareduck]

81.  14 - we are in approximately the same situation. For a long time, I thought I wanted children, and it almost caused my marriage to come unglued. I realized that my marriage was more important to me than having kids, and that was that.

[underdog]

82.  Jon, I may save this post, if you don't mind, for if I do have kids, and about three years in when I totally lose it and need to be reminded that others go through the same thing. I can see feeling the same way as you do and struggling with it, with change. Kids are each so different, that is the blessing that sometimes seems a curse. A certain amount of zen is required, I'm sure, but easier said than done.

[scareduck]

83.  14 - also, we have been fortunate that most of our circle of friends isn't having kids, and wasn't going to, though there is a decent subset that has and still manages to get out anyway.

[Harold M Johnson]

84.  I have two kids, ages 5 and 1.5. I rarely yell anymore-- one thing I have learned from a neighbor of mine is that if you do yell and threaten, you MUST follow through. You need to have that one look or tone of voice that the kid knows there are very serious consequences for ignoring.

When my oldest was only 3, I used to yell a lot and threaten various punishments that never materialized. Now if I only threaten things I am prepared to actually do, but I do it less, and it seems to work.

[Andrew Shimmin]

85.  80- I never got over the "silky" thing. . .

By the way, if anyone's having fertility issues, I'd recommend heading up to San Jose. The place is lousy with kids. At breakfast yesterday, there was a stroller at each table within a thirty foot radius of mine. We were near a farmers' market, too, which I thought was very clever--bring your kids to a farmers' market and the most trouble they can get into is stealing a vegetable.

[regfairfield]

86.  I just plan on making my kid run laps and do squat thrusts whenever he steps out of line. How could that possibly go wrong?

[Jon Weisman]

87.  81 - I would have chosen a no-kids marriage over the alternative. I have no issue at all with someone not having kids. I hope that's stating the obvious.

[D4P]

88.  85
We were near a farmers' market

We...?

[Andrew Shimmin]

89.  88- Royal we; that ruddy Canadian infected me with his pronoun confusion.

[Eric Stephen]

90.  86
The Raiders could draft him after a pretty good college career at USC.

[Marty]

91.  70 I was "Uncle Marty" to all my friends kids. One of them is a senior in College now. I feel old every time I see her.

[D4P]

92.  89
Ah. I thought maybe you were referring to your pens.

[Daniel Zappala]

93.  I would like to think that I have become more engaging and interesting the older I have gotten, regardless of how many kids I've had. I don't think having kids necessarily has to turn your life into 24-hour Spongebob. 50 is a great example.

The surest way to keep a friend who has kids is to take an active interest in their kids. It's pretty easy to do, too, since the minute things become difficult (e.g. they start crying), the responsibility is on the parents to comfort them.

69 Being a foster parent is an amazing thing to do for a child in need, and I hope to do it myself some day.

[Eric Stephen]

94.  91
I'm the young uncle (all my brothers and sisters are older than me by a decent amount), and I have four nieces currently in college of whom I used to changed diapers. It's kind of weird.

[Bob Timmermann]

95.  94
It would be weirder if you STILL changed their diapers while they were at college.

[D4P]

96.  Mark Cuban accused of insider trading, which I'm sure happens all the time.

[Eric Stephen]

97.  95
That's true. That would be perhaps the most needlessly elaborate scheme ever to try to get into a female college dorm hall.*

*However, in this case, all four nieces live at home. :)

[underdog]

98.  Is it possible to have kids, enjoy their infancy, and then hand them off to someone from ages 2-3, and then take them back? And then maybe again ages 12-15. Just wondering. Then I'd really be into this idea. Especially if Eric can come over and change their diapers in the 0-1 years.

[Daniel Zappala]

99.  I never understood the negative connotations of changing a child's diapers, provided that child is yours. It's a wonderful bonding experience.

[Jon Weisman]

100.  Gurnick mailbag:

In a recent interview with a local radio show, Colletti was asked about Andruw Jones showing up to camp out of shape in 2008. Colletti stated the Dodgers have a personal trainer currently with Jones in his home in Atlanta and his 2008 shape was basically unacceptable. He also stated Jones signed his name to a contract that states he must be in top physical shape. In 2008, he obviously wasn't in peak shape. If he shows up in 2009 looking very similar, is there anything the team can do to penalize him, such as suing him or voiding the contract?
-- Steve S., Los Angeles

(Gurnick:) Paragraph 3.(a) of the uniform players contract states that the player must "keep himself in first-class physical condition." If the club attempted to void the contract for that reason, it would be fought tenaciously by the Players Association, which has proved over the years to be extremely successful defending the players. That doesn't mean it won't happen with so much money at stake. If your scenario plays out, the club could choose to release Jones, rather than go through a repeat of the 2008 disaster, and/or attempt to fight the player for the remaining $21.2 million on the contract.

http://tinyurl.com/5z5lm4

(Weisman:) I still don't see any chance of Jones losing on these grounds.