Last Call at Vero Beach

Dodger Thoughts reader Andrew Zicklin e-mailed last week following the final Dodger fantasy camp at Dodgertown in Vero.

Sixty-two players, including two women, spent the week with Tommy Davis, Maury Wills, Joe Pignatano, Rick Monday, Steve Yeager, Bill Russell, Jerry Reuss and Carl Erskine. Also along as instructors and coaches were John Shoemaker, Craig (Nacho) Bjornson, Garey (Chicken) Ingram, Marty Reed, Glenn Dishman and Casey Deskins.

It shows what kind of tradition and respect the Dodgers and the camp have when the guys that have moved on to other teams - Bjornson, Reed and Ingram - come back to hang with us campers.

The week started off rainy, games cancelled, so we were able to take advantage of the time and listen to the coaches talk about their specialties. Sunday, it was Yeager and Piggy on catching and Tommy Davis on hitting. Monday, we had Reuss and Erskine on pitching, Tuesday, Wills on baserunning.

We did get the games in, though: doubleheader on Monday, doubleheader on Tuesday. On Wednesday, we played nine innings, plus two innings in the camper/instructor game at Holman Field, which always ends with Jimmy Erskine, who has Down syndrome, hitting a ball pitched by Carl and running the bases. Then another nine on Thursday. You can see the stats and participants at www.ladabc.com.

The evenings were spent with Monday and Reuss recapping the season and taking questions, Carl and Piggy with conference calls by Duke Snider and Ralph Branca talking about the Brooklyn days, and an evening with Bruce Froemming, who umpires games throughout camp and ran the kangaroo court, which Branca used to do.

All fines go to the Jimmy Fund, which helps families with special needs children. This tradition was started by a former camper who was moved by Jimmy Erskine's story. The campers raised about $5,000 for the fund this week.

Of course after dinner, the campers and instructors all headed over to the clubhouse bar, where we proceeded to self-medicate, seeking relief from the sore hamstrings, quads, knees and shoulders that we incurred during the day.

It was a bittersweet week. ... As far as I know, there is no other camp where the campers and instructors eat, drink and even dress in the clubhouse locker room together, and no other camp of a team that has relocated has kept the tradition of their former and current home so interconnected and strong as the Brooklyn and LA teams have.

A chapter has definitely ended.

* * *

Elsewhere ...

Rafael Furcal's agent, Paul Kinzer, said he probably talk to the Dodgers this week, reported Michael Becker of the Press-Enterprise.

Lisa Winston of MLB.com has an update on Dodgers in the Arizona Fall League, led by Andrew Lambo.

Will Leitch has an exit interview with the writers of Fire Joe Morgan, which closed up shop last week.

Comments

[Jacob Burch]

1.  I can't believe VORP is actually arguing against my dislike of Dustin Pedroia. I feel betrayed.

I need reg to tell me some defensive metric actually hates him or I'm doomed.

[Jacob Burch]

2.  What's the average VORP/Win share for a MVP winner? Am I insane in thinking Dustin looks very pedestrian?

Granted, so did the last Dodger MVP, but still.

[Eric Stephen]

3.  LAT'd:

AL VORP Leaders
1) A-Rod - 62.4
2) Sizemore - 60.7
3) Pedroia - 59.8
4) Mauer - 57.1
5) Bradley - 56.2
6) Hamilton - 55.9
7) Huff - 55.6
8) Kinsler - 53.7
9) Youkilis - 53.4
10) Quentin - 51.3

Jacob, I agree with your first placers. Who was the --? Quentin & Mr. HR Derby might get some love too.

[Eric Stephen]

4.  1
I need reg to tell me some defensive metric actually hates him or I'm doomed

According to Bill James Online, Pedroia went from -5 (25th in MLB) in 2007 to +15 (5th) in 2008.

[fanerman]

5.  Pedroia shows up as average with Dave Pinto's Probabilistic Model of Range:
http://tinyurl.com/6za4gl

However, Bill James Online rates him as #5 in terms of +/- at +15. (Utley owns everybody else at +47)

RZR (from the Hardball Times) has him at 6th.

[Jacob Burch]

6.  That was my line to put two candidates I don't think deserve it, but will get Lidge-esque votes anyways.

I don't think Quentin will get a first place vote. Story Of The Year (I'm going to keep making up nicknames until one sticks) could get one, and I did take the over, so I may throw him in, but I'm sticking by my guess, in this order (of first place votes received):

Pedroia
Mauer
Morneau
Youk
K-Rod
Longoria (St. Petersburg Times is officially put on my completely blank Obelisk if this happens).

[Bumsrap]

7.  I was LAT'D as well but then that's life. Instead of re-posting, I am going to ask for a bailout and nominate Ross Perot for car czar.

[fanerman]

8.  5 The top 2nd basemen according to BJO are:
Chase Utley +47
Mark Ellis +26
Adam Kennedy +19
Brandon Phillips +17
Dustin Pedroia +15

THT link:
http://tinyurl.com/6cykln

[Eric Stephen]

9.  6
Because of his ink, maybe J-Ham (that one won't stick) could be "da plane."

[Jacob Burch]

10.  9 I'm sticking with SOTY. He's the rated R version of Henry Rowengartner.

[fanerman]

11.  6 Bob Timmermann has spawned a bunch of copy cats. If he were a shrewd businessman/sell-out, he'd open an Obelisk Store. I'm sure he'd sell one to you for less than you paid for the one you already have.

[D4P]

12.  While it's true that Pedroia out-VORPed Youkilis, it's also true that Pedroia had 105 more PAs.

Youkilis comes out ahead if you look at VORP/PA.

[Jacob Burch]

13.  11 I already spent $50 on the Timmermann-approved score book, so I'm sure I'd shill out for such a stone.

[fanerman]

14.  13 Ch-i knows I would.

[Jacob Burch]

15.  12 Yes! A solution I can believe in!

Then again, I'd be rooting for a baseball player I may actually dislike more in Youk. I can't win. I'm jumping on the Mauer boat.

[fanerman]

16.  12 While that is true, I feel that the MVP should be given based on counted value and not rate-value. I may have made up those terms.

[Eric Stephen]

17.  12
Isn't health a skill, at least to some extent? Pedroia played in 12 more games than Youk, and started 14 more times. That doesn't account for all the PA difference (maybe half).

[Eric Stephen]

18.  15
Youkilis is harder to hate because of two things:

1) "The Greek God of Walks" nickname
2) His goatee

That said, he's more on the "hate" side of my personal spectrum.

[D4P]

19.  16
I understand why you feel that way, but such a system rewards players based on their position in the lineup, which a "good" system wouldn't do.

[fanerman]

20.  16 To expand a bit, most valuable player should be the player who contributes well, the most. Not the one who WOULD contribute the most if they played the most games but didn't.

Wouldn't Man-Ram have won the NL MVP if he we were going by value/PA?

[Eric Stephen]

21.  10
Henry Rowengartner

The Rangers may have been better off with Gary Busey making some starts for them on the mound.

[D4P]

22.  20
I agree with you about distinguishing between players who were in the lineup vs. out, but I don't think players should be rewarded for batting higher in the lineup.

[Jacob Burch]

23.  I thought I remember there being a lineup-position-dependent VORPy thing out there. Am I making this up?

[fanerman]

24.  Baseball Prospectus calls Pedroia the "Sabermatric Fave."

[El Lay Dave]

25.  The official BBWAA rules for MVP voting includes the criterion "Number of games played", which provides some basis for VORP over a VORP rate.

So ARod's season looks similar to Youkilis' to me, other than the playoff team thing, and he plays a tougher position.

[fanerman]

26.  22 I agree. But at the same time I feel not accounting for batting order is less egregious than not distinguishing between players in the line-up vs. out. 23 would be nice. I have no idea if it exists though.

[El Lay Dave]

27.  22 Generally, don't they bat higher in the lineup because they are more valuable (hitters)?

[D4P]

28.  not accounting for batting order is less egregious than not distinguishing between players in the line-up vs. out

That depends in large part upon the disparity in time spent out of the lineup. If the disparity is small, then batting order matters a (relative) lot.

[Jacob Burch]

29.  24 You're not helping my (irrational?) loathing of all things Boston.

That said, it's not like either Youk or Pedroia is a likable villain, ala Bonds or MJ. I don't get that grin you get when you prepare to jeer someone, or that belly laugh when someone three row behind you comes up with a particularly funny fourth grade insult against the guys. I think of them and they just frustrate and annoy me.

[fanerman]

30.  BP is listing the top 7 VORP guys all being in the NL. I think. It's having a hard time loading.

[D4P]

31.  Generally, don't they bat higher in the lineup because they are more valuable (hitters)?

If we're looking at #4 vs. #7, then probably so.

But probably not if we're looking at #1 vs. #4.

[Tripon]

32.  Kevin (Philly): Hey Rob, what do you think of the underhanded tactics employed by some Pujols voters to ensure that he won the MVP award? Knocking Howard way down on their ballots, or even leaving him off completely so he can't close the first-place gap with secondary votes... I think it's disgraceful. Such writers should have their voting privileges revoked.

SportsNation Rob Neyer: Ummm, do you have some sort of proof of this, Kevin? Because a reasonable person could make a reasonable argument that Howard wasn't one of the 10 best players in the league. I'm just saying.

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=23698

[El Lay Dave]

33.  The criteria listed on the MVP ballot:

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.
2. Number of games played.
3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.
4. Former winners are eligible.
5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.

No. 3 allows for a lot of wiggle room.

[D4P]

34.  It's actually snowing here right now.

[fanerman]

35.  28 How low would a typical MVP candidate bat? Where was Youkilis batting for most of the season?

[Jacob Burch]

36.  33 I always laugh when I read the original rules. I read them with a Conan-Cranks-and-Birds type voice and add on one or two archaic things like "Fraternizing with Unwed dames is cause for dismissal, unless you're Steve Garvey"

[Eric Stephen]

37.  35
17 starts batting 2nd
8 GS batting 3rd
48 GS batting 4th
22 GS batting 5th
47 GS batting 6th

[Jacob Burch]

38.  35 4th or 6th, with a little bit of 5th.

[fanerman]

39.  Someone should just swoop in and show us a line-up independent VORP number.

[D4P]

40.  Where was Youkilis batting for most of the season?

ABs by position:

Batting #1: 2
Batting #2: 69
Batting #3: 33
Batting #4: 174
Batting #5: 86
Batting #6: 174

[blue22]

41.  My case for Joe Mauer:

first in WPA (http://tinyurl.com/5czgss)
second in VORP
second in OBP
batting title (yay)
damn fine catcher

[Jacob Burch]

42.  DT ranting about NedCo comes up on page two of a google search for "baseball stat lineup position independent"

11am can't come soon enough!

[blue22]

43.  41 - make that 4th in VORP

[Eric Stephen]

44.  35
How low would a typical MVP candidate bat?

Marty Marion won the 1944 NL MVP. I don't have play-by-play data for that season, but he batted 7th in all six games of the World Series.

Marion, however, was not your typical MVP. He probably batted the lowest of them all.

[Tripon]

45.  Craig (ShysterBall, Blogosphere): Wait, you're free now? On behalf of free-bloggers everywhere, I must go on record saying that I do not like this unnecessarily field-levelling development.

SportsNation Rob Neyer: I'm not sure exactly why, when, or how. But yes, I seem to have been freed. Eat it, Blogger Boy!

[Jacob Burch]

46.  45 I still cannot fathom for the life of me how Rob Neyer wrote that "Best 50 players over the next 10 years" piece that had Melky Cabreara in it, with only one AL West player (and I think only half a dozen NL West). I just don't understand it. He was supposed to be our Jeter-hating equalizer.

He is, however, rather prompt on email. It only took him a day to get back to me regarding lowest PA before an IBB. I forgot the answer, but it was 0 PA.

[fanerman]

47.  Pedroia played in 12 more games and had 100 more PA than Youkilis. If Youkilis played 12 more games, how many more PA would he have, about? 50?

Factoring in Pedroia playing a harder position (2B) than Youkilis (mostly 1B and some 3B) and playing it better (according to +/-), would that overcome Youklis's better VORP/PA and Pedroia's lead-off "handicap"?

[cargill06]

48.  453 Even with a $140 payroll they still managed to give 453 PA's to a .249/.301/.341 line (68 OPS+). Who does he think he is? Juan Pierre?

[cargill06]

49.  48 was supposed to be for 46 , and the player I was referring to was Melky.

[El Lay Dave]

50.  47 FWIW, Pedroia batted 2nd primarily, 132 starts there.

[El Lay Dave]

51.  I hope KG16 and family are doing OK with the OC fires.

[Tripon]

52.  Xander (Philly): You're just a Phillies hater. Musta been hard for you to watch them dominate their way to the World Series title.

SportsNation Rob Neyer: It's even harder for me to watch Chase Utley get screwed by the MVP voters every year. Cheers! And until next time, don't forget: "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."

[Jon Weisman]

53.  Heidi game coverage in the Times, 11-19-68:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thedailymirror/2008/11/november-18-196.html

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/thedailymirror/files/1968_1118_sports.JPG

[Travis08]

54.  46 A few players were intentionally walked in their first career plate appearance, the last being Luis Lopez with Toronto in 2001.

http://www.bb-ref.com/pi/shareit/GR9C

[regfairfield]

55.  Sizemore was probably the most deserving MVP candidate, but there's nothing wrong with Pedroia, it was a pretty weak ballot.

[kinbote]

56.  Anyone can have an obelisk. What's truly impressive is to have an oubliette.

[Jacob Burch]

57.  55 Funny how a team can have the most valuable starter and hitter and have the supporting cast weigh them down as bad as the Indians did.

54 Lopez was his answer, thank you! And to think it came in the AL...

[cargill06]

58.  55 I'll take Sizemore, higher VORP, better baserunner. But it's so close, I'm sure an argument can swing me to DP15

[Eric Stephen]

59.  DP wins.

Only 5 players with 1st place votes. Boo.

[Eric Stephen]

60.  http://baseballwriters.org/awards/2008/2008_AL_mvp.html

[Jacob Burch]

61.  And DP15 it is. Only 1 for K-Rod! None for SOTY! None for Longoria! St. Pete is saved!

[Eric Stephen]

62.  Raul Ibañez got a 10th place vote.

[Eric Stephen]

63.  Holy crap, Jason Bartlett got a 5th place vote!

[Jon Weisman]

64.  K-Rod got an MVP first-place vote?

[Eric Stephen]

65.  63
Of the Delmon Young / Matt Garza trade, I would have given large odds that Bartlett would be the first in that trade to receive MVP votes.

[Jacob Burch]

66.  64 There was speculation he could get even more than that. Probably not more than 2-3, but.

[cargill06]

67.  Morneau 2nd over Mauer LOL

[Eric Stephen]

68.  Pedroia was actually left off one ballot altogether:

16 1st place votes
6 2nd place
4 3rd
1 4th
1 11th or worse

Kind of weird.

[Jacob Burch]

69.  68 Peter Gammons is on it and will not rest until the man is no longer allowed in the city of Boston.

[Jacob Burch]

70.  And someone needs to pay the BBWAA a little money to redesign their website. How atrocious is that eyesore.

[kinbote]

71.  I thought the MVP was Joe Maddon's inspirational T-shirt?

[D4P]

72.  Pedroia was actually left off one ballot altogether

Probably the same ballot that gave the 8th place vote to Mike Mussina.

[cargill06]

73.  I was really hoping Manny would get some votes.

[Eric Stephen]

74.  73
Me too. That would have been amusing.

[D4P]

75.  I was really hoping Manny would get some votes

So was Boras.

[Bob Timmermann]

76.  See, I'm passe.

And I couldn't get to work early because I carpool and I couldn't tell the other people that I needed to come in earlier because a half dozen people on a blog want to see what I post for the AL MVP award.

I tried it once.

[Tripon]

77.  http://www.npbtracker.com/2008/11/kawakami-vs-kuroda/#content

Comparing Kuroda to free agent Kawakami.

[Eric Stephen]

78.  The White Sox move to Glendale in 2009 (to share the spring training facility with the Dodgers) was approved today by the Pima County Board of Supervisors:

http://tinyurl.com/635g76

[Jacob Burch]

79.  Dandy Warhols were going to make a song about Bob, but didn't think it was edgy enough for the kids.

I should write the lyrics to the unfinished song.

[cargill06]

80.  Raul Ibañez got a 10th place vote.

How do you the squigally over the "N"?

[Eric Stephen]

81.  80
Hold down "Alt", and type 164, and you get ñ, aka the tilde.

[regfairfield]

82.  Somewhat related. I need some test cases for a project I'm working on. What's are some common names that have a ñ in them, or some accent marks.

[cargill06]

83.  82 When you say accent marks, do you mean squigallies?

[Eric Stephen]

84.  82
Peña
Gagnè (according to his jersey)

[trainwreck]

85.  Nunez

[Jacob Burch]

86.  81 The tilde is the mark above it, not it with an N.

On an apple, option+n will get you a tilde pre-mark, type any tilde-taking letter afterward to get the full letter.

Many names I can think of have accents that tend to get anglosized out. Esmé being a personal favorite.

There's always Björk.

[trainwreck]

87.  Now Mike Moser is down to UCLA and USC all of a sudden.

He must be trying to anger D4P.

[Eric Stephen]

88.  86
The tilde is the mark above it, not it with an N

I think I knew that at one time, but somehow forgot.

I don't know if I'd ever use the tilde feature more than a couple of times, but it seems like a cool selling point for a Mac. :)

[Jacob Burch]

89.  88 It's also easy to do on another certain Apple product.

[bhsportsguy]

90.  Scott Boras will not be bringing up Teixiera's AL MVP vote total when discussing his next contract, a single 10th place vote for a total of 1 point for the Angels' mid-season pickup. This is despite Teixiera leading the AL in OPS during his two month stop for the Angels. His 1.081 OPS, .358 average, 13 home runs and 43 RBI were not enough to even put him first among Angel position players in the AL MVP game.

[kinbote]

91.  86 . . . with love and squalor.

[Jon Weisman]

92.  84 - Gagne has the accent going the wrong direction on his jersey?

[Eric Stephen]

93.  90
The key, as is often the case in MVP voting, is to be on a team that is not great, but rather just good enough to barely make or narrowly miss the playoffs.

Even though Tex was amazing with Anaheim, nobody thought he was the reason the Angels made the playoffs, as they basically had the division won at the time of the trade.

[Jacob Burch]

94.  91 Yes, you're on the correct track. I'm usually very good at calming my inner English maj...er, graduate, but not when it comes to the short works of Salinger.

Going back to the last post, if I am ever blessed with a daughter, it would take a hell of a fight from the Misses to not name her Esmé.

I can't think of any wonderful, awe-inspiring male characters in Salinger that don't have really, really dorky names though. Elf actresses have taken whatever masculinity was left out of the name Zooey.

[Jacob Burch]

95.  92 I'm guessing Eric didn't want to deal with the trial-and-error hell of Alt + Numpad and went with the first accented E he found.

[Eric Stephen]

96.  92
Détails, détails.

[Eric Stephen]

97.  95
I actually only remembered è because it is Alt+138, and since Gagné's number was 38 I had a little memory association thing going.

[El Lay Dave]

98.  94 Elf actresses have taken whatever masculinity was left out of the name Zooey

I doubt Jim Carrey's upcoming movie is any good, but I'll always say yes to Zooey Deschanel.

[cargill06]

99.  93 Exactley, or you can be rewarded if you were so awful early in the year, that you put your team in a hole. Than surge in Sept. and if your team barely makes the playoffs. (IE Delgado/Howard)

[trainwreck]

100.  98
At least it has Murray in it.