What Is a Fourth Starter?

In the wake of the Dodgers' Hiroki Kuroda signing, Dodger Thoughts commenter Eric Stephen researched the realties of No. 4 starters in the National League. Enjoy his work!

With the recent signing of Hiroki Kuroda by the Dodgers, many reports peg Kuroda as the team's "fourth starter." What should we expect of Kuroda in 2008? How well will Kuroda have to perform to be considered a success? To define his success, we need to figure out just what a fourth starter is, and how will Kuroda compare with his 2007 Dodger counterparts.

The Dodgers' "Big Three" of Brad Penny, Chad Billingsley, and Derek Lowe are all above average pitchers. In 2007, they combined for 85 starts and put up stellar numbers, a combined 3.44 ERA and 133 ERA+. No team in the NL got better pitching out of its top three starters (ranked by IP) in 2007:

Team	G	Win %	IP	ERA	ERA+
LA	85	0.612	518 1/3	3.44	133
SD	98	0.592	594 1/3	3.24	125
Atl	96	0.594	591 1/3	3.50	122
Chi	100	0.540	618 1/3	3.90	119
Ari	100	0.580	633 1/3	4.01	117
SF	91	0.429	551 2/3	4.05	110
Col	88	0.534	545	4.43	108
Cin	98	0.490	620	4.35	107
NY	95	0.579	568 1/3	3.99	107
Hou	94	0.511	581	4.23	104
Pit	93	0.462	587 1/3	4.18	104
Mil	89	0.528	531 1/3	4.61	97
Phi	91	0.571	544 1/3	4.84	95
StL	88	0.466	516	4.80	92
Was	72	0.472	389	4.84	87
Fla	95	0.474	531	5.24	82

The Dodgers had the highest ERA+ at 133 (Note: When I plugged in Dan Haren's 2007 into Arizona's numbers to replace Livan Hernandez, their ERA+ is also 133) and highest winning percentage at .612. However, only the Washington Nationals got fewer starts out of their "Big Three," and only the Nationals and St. Louis Cardinals got fewer innings than the Dodgers.

Outside of the "Big Three," I lumped every other starter into a category called "The Rest." Here is how "The Rest" fared in the NL in 2007:

Team	G	Win %	IP	ERA	ERA+
Ari	62	0.516	324 2/3	4.66	101
Col	75	0.573	398 1/3	4.79	100
Mil	73	0.493	401 2/3	4.48	100
Chi	62	0.500	337 1/3	4.72	99
SF	71	0.451	417	4.49	99
Phi	71	0.521	394	5.00	92
NY	67	0.493	372 1/3	5.03	85
StL	74	0.500	373	5.38	82
Hou	68	0.368	376 2/3	5.45	81
LA	77	0.390	398 2/3	5.71	80
Cin	64	0.375	337	5.80	80
Was	90	0.433	467	5.34	79
SD	65	0.477	340 2/3	5.63	72
Fla	67	0.388	326	6.13	70
Atl	66	0.409	325 2/3	6.16	69
Pit	69	0.362	345 2/3	6.43	68

While other teams may have gotten worse pitching from the dregs of their rotation than the Dodgers, only the Nationals had more starts from their back end.

The Dodgers' pitching figures to improve in 2008 simply by having Chad Billingsley in the rotation for a full season (he only made 20 starts in 2007). Having Kuroda will also help, albeit it a hefty cost ($12.3 million for 2008 alone), as he simply has to replace the dastardly duo of Mark Hendrickson & Brett Tomko, who combined for a putrid 5.84 ERA in 30 starts and 155.2 innings in 2007.

Looking further into the numbers, it underscores how important depth is when evaluating potential starting rotations. There is simply no such thing as a five-man rotation, at least in literal terms. It really does take a village to build a pitching staff. In 2007, the average NL team used:

10.7 starters

8 pitchers with 5+ starts

6 pitchers with 10+ starts

3.8 pitchers with 20+ starts

2.3 pitchers with 30+ starts

The Cubs got the most starts out of their top five starters, with 152. Here are the numbers for each NL team:

Chi - 152 (93.8%)
SD - 143 (87.7%)
Ari - 139 (85.8%)
Mil - 137 (84.6%)
SF - 136 (84.0%)
NY - 133 (82.1%)
Atl - 133 (82.1%)
Hou - 131 (80.9%)
Fla - 131 (80.9%)
Cin - 129 (79.6%)
Pit - 127 (78.4%)
StL - 125 (77.2%)
Phi - 123 (75.9%)
Col - 122 (74.8%)
LA - 118 (72.8%)
Was - 103 (63.6%)

Those pesky Nationals again kept the Dodgers out of the bottom spot.

Using Baseball-Reference.com, I ranked each team's starters by innings pitched to define each rotation slot, and averaged them. I used the league 4.43 ERA to calculate the cumulative ERA+, so they may be a bit off. Here are the numbers for the 2007 NL:

Rotation Slot	GS	IP	IP/start	H/9	HR/9	BB/9	K/9	ERA	ERA+
#1 Starters	33.3	209.7	6.31	9.00	0.83	3.00	6.62	3.84	115
#2 Starters	30.9	187.4	6.06	9.33	1.13	2.74	6.28	4.32	103
#3 Starters	27.9	160.4	5.75	9.38	1.16	3.38	6.58	4.53	98
#4 Starters	21.7	124.4	5.73	9.13	1.16	3.12	6.20	4.59	96
#5 Starters	16.4	88.9	5.43	10.17	1.26	3.35	5.84	5.07	87
#6 Starters	11.3	60.4	5.37	10.18	1.15	3.32	6.22	5.26	84

What's interesting is that even if you expand the average NL rotation to include six starters, that still leaves roughly 21 starts unaccounted for!

What does this mean for the Dodgers? None of the eight hurlers who started a game for the Dodgers outside their "Big Three" had an ERA+ of 100 or better. Only the Pittsburgh Pirates and Florida Marlins can share this dubious claim. Think about that for a moment. Nearly every team in the NL got league average innings out of at least one starter outside their top three. Not the Dodgers. David Wells and his 5.12 ERA in seven Dodger starts made him the fifth best starter on the team!

What does this mean for Kuroda? If they can get more than 124 IP with an ERA+ of 96 or more out of their newest Japanese import, they will be above average in the National League, and I'd call his season a success.

(Editor's note: And if the Dodgers' top three retain their advantage over the rest of the NL, so much the better.)

* * *

In other Dodger Thoughts commenter news, Nate Purcell went through Kuroda's 2007 boxscores and determined (with some small amount of self-confessed margin for error) that Kuroda's groundout/flyout ratio was 2.25 to 1.

Comments

[Jacob L]

1.  That's nice work, Eric. The conclusion that I draw is that its not a horrible idea to ridiculously overpay for average production from the back end of the rotation.

[Bob Timmermann]

2.  LAT'ed while looking for the difference between baseballs in North America and Asia:

In North America, cowhide is used to cover baseballs. In Asia, it's horsehide. There is a difference in its tackiness.

http://tinyurl.com/2aaul4

[bhsportsguy]

3.  Of course, the Dodgers still need to score more runs.

(Just saying)

[MC Safety]

4.  Coletti wasnt a good GM last year is what I get from it.

[Brent is a Dodger Fan]

5.  Awesome perspective! I really liked that analysis. Thanks for that.

[ToyCannon]

6.  Great stuff. I can remember arguing that we were only asking for Tomko to be a 5th starter for the last two years but that didn't turn out very well. I knew the back end of our rotation was bad but I didn't know it was that bad.
Kershaw can't get here fast enough for me. I hope he dominates enough that he's pitching in some capacity for us in August. I think even if he does a Joba like job out of the bullpen he could have an impact.

[D4P]

7.  The conclusion that I draw is that David Wells is a(n) FTOG.

[Brent is a Dodger Fan]

8.  Of course, the thing I like most about the Kuroda signing is the idea that it probably quells the rumors of Kemp plus others for Bedard, etc. If he makes a league-average contribution for the rotation, so much the better.

Upside, fantasy-like: if the "big three" pitch slightly above their projections, Schmidt does something miraculous, and Kuroda is league-average, we could be looking at 90+ wins regardless of how many games JP and Garciapara take to play themselves out of their jobs...

[bhsportsguy]

9.  1 Great work Eric.

[kinbote]

10.  Great read. It's important to remember the interrelationship of all things pitching. Having starters who can pitch deep [and effectively] into the later innings affects both the rest of the rotation and the bullpen. If Kuroda can perform at the level outlined above, his impact will be felt beyond his personal statistics.

[Reiichi]

11.  That back end of the rotation looks like it killed us more than our PVL in the fielding positions.

Assuming the big 3 stay healthy and and continue to produce at last years levels, the back end of our rotation will likely determine if we make the post season. I wouldn't call 96 ERA+ a success for the money being paid, but it would be a significant upgrade over what we had pitching #4 last year.

[CanuckDodger]

12.  6 -- I think it would be short-sighted having Kershaw in the majors in his age 20 season, like Edwin Jackson, and I doubt he adds all the polish he needs in just a few more months in the minors in 2008. I think McDonald is the starter prospect we have to look forward to making the jump first. Just compare their numbers in Double A. The different walk rates alone tell a story (McDonald's command is much more more advanced).

[kngoworld]

13.  Outstanding work Eric, really very informative and helpful.

[Jon Weisman]

14.  I added Nate's work on Kuroda's groundball ratio to the post.

[Humma Kavula]

15.  Eric, this is great work and tremendous research. You should be proud.

I have a question. You note:

None of the eight hurlers who started a game for the Dodgers outside their "Big Three" had an ERA+ of 100 or better. Only the Pittsburgh Pirates and Florida Marlins can share this dubious claim. Think about that for a moment. Nearly every team in the NL got league average innings out of at least one starter outside their top three.

But we also see that taken as a whole, the third starter has an ERA+ of 98 and the fourth starter and ERA+ of 96. Do the Dodgers (as far as the 4th starter is concerned), Pirates and Marlins drag these averages down below 100, even though all the other teams are at 100 or greater?

[Xeifrank]

16.  To me this underscores what terrible luck the Dodgers starting pitchers had with injuries last year (Schmidt, Wolf, Guo). Well, perhaps not all of it was bad luck, some of it was probably predictable. But all three!!? It would be the equivalent of Schmidt, Kuroda and Loaiza all going down with early season injuries in 2008 and lost for the rest of the season. Not too many teams are prepared to lose 3-5ths of their rotation. vr, Xei

[Humma Kavula]

17.  Also:

Nate, what kind of conclusions or projections can we draw from the 2.25:1 GB:FB ratio? Does that number mean that we shouldn't expect Derek Lowesque numbers, but some success wouldn't be surprising?

[Xeifrank]

18.  14. Was that only for outs, or all batted balls? vr, Xei

[Paul Scott]

19.  That GB rate is new information for me and could completely change my opinion on this acquisition. I have no idea how well it holds up on translation to the US.

Nate (or anyone),
I know it would be a small sample size, but do you have any information on whether GB rates stay steady when moving from Japan to the US, or, whether the GB rates in Japan are - on average - comparable across the league to the US?

[Xeifrank]

20.  2.25% would've been 8th in the MLB last year.
vr, Xei

[Reiichi]

21.  15 since the starters were ranked by IP, it is possible that the ERA 100+ depth might not have necessarily been in the #4 or even #5 starters slot.

Basically, the Dodgers had no ERA 100+ depth whatsoever from 4 down.

[D4P]

22.  Nate, what kind of conclusions or projections can we draw from the 2.25:1 GB:FB ratio?

Seems to me we'd really need to know where linedrives fit in before we can really make accurate projections. Clearly, Ratio A would have very different implications than Ratio B, despite having the same GB:FB ratios.

Ratio A: 9 GBs, 1 FB, 10 LD

Ratio B: 9 GBs, 1 FB, 1 LD

[regfairfield]

23.  17 If it's true, I'm a lot more enthusiastic about this signing. The Dodgers should be targetting ground ball pitchers given how Dodger Stadium plays.

19 If what Bob said about the Japanese leagues is true, I'd imagine it'd go down with less people trying for the fences and most players just trying to put the bat on the ball.

[Kevin Lewis]

24.  Great analysis. Does this mean our back end of the rotation was actually the "trash can". Maybe Kent should have been complaining about the pitching.

[Xeifrank]

25.  Conceivably your worst starter could be your #1 starter using IP as the definition. Perhaps an IP & ERA+ combined weighting could be used to determine the starter slots?
vr, Xei

[ToyCannon]

26.  With that GB rate, he is going to love having Kent play 2nd base for him.

[Eric Stephen]

27.  15
Wolf was the #4 starter, in that he threw the 4th most IP. His ERA+ was 97, but no one else was even close to him from the rest of the staff.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I believe the Rockies got 155 starts out of pitchers with an ERA+ of 97 or better.

16
Speaking of luck, look at the Dodgers "rest" versus the Padres. The Padres got even worse pitching than the Dodgers (72 ERA+ vs. the Dodgers' 80) yet the Padres' winning percentage in those games was .477 as compared to a nearly league worst .390 for LA.

I'm sure some of that was due to the Padres' superior bullpen and offense but I don't all of their advantage was due to those factors.

[regfairfield]

28.  Bear in mind we were still fourth in the league in runs allowed (and we would be third if we adjusted for park) so either our big three was way better than everyone elses, or there's something we're missing here.

[Jon Weisman]

29.  25 - "Conceivably your worst starter could be your #1 starter using IP as the definition."

Seems unlikely, though.

[Paul Scott]

30.  23 Yes, that makes sense and is my initial guess as well. I am just wondering if anyone has any data (a quick google search did not find anything), since too often in Baseball what "makes sense" turns out to be completely wrong.

[D4P]

31.  so either our big three was way better than everyone elses

The 8 point difference in ERA+ between the Dodgers and adjacent Padres is the largest gap between adjacent teams in the Big Three ERA+ standings.

[ToyCannon]

32.  Andrew should go on a recruiting trip down to San Diego.

[Xeifrank]

33.  29. It was a worst case scenario. But it's also unlikely that your pitchers value/skill would be correctly ranked if done by IPs. Good pitchers miss starts for injuries, or good young pitchers miss starts from spending time in the minors etc...
vr, Xei

[regfairfield]

34.  30 I agree, but since Nate had to figure that out by hand, and from my initial searches, I don't think there's been an exhaustive study.

[Jon Weisman]

35.  28 - Well, as Eric shows, our big three was better than everyone else's.

[kngoworld]

36.  This is a better question for the last thread but does anyone know the best airport to fly into when heading to Vero Beach? Perferably one that South West uses. Palm Beach International and Orlando appear to be about the same distance away. Any tips?

[Jon Weisman]

37.  33 - I understand. But bad pitchers do get hurt too, and they pitch fewer innings per outing to boot, and they get sent to the bullpen, and they get skipped over for starts. Innings pitched is a decent way to organize things.

[regfairfield]

38.  35 To my credit, I feel like I'm pretty close to death right now, but that was really dumb of me.

However, our big three would have less weight than anyone elses because they threw less innings.

[Paul Scott]

39.  38 Not to mention Brad Penny's off-season diet.

[regfairfield]

40.  Purely anecdotal, but scouting reports suggested that Matsuzaka was a ground ball pitcher in Japan, and he ended up being a fly ball pitcher over here (.92 G/F).

[Xeifrank]

41.  37. Sure, but you are going to see skewed numbers when someone like Lincecum is considered a #4 starter. Or Gallardo on Milwaukee a 5th starter if the NL Central was looked at. vr, Xei

[regfairfield]

42.  How did Nate get ground ball information from Japanese baseball?

[ToyCannon]

43.  Maybe Nate could review the 2006 box scores for Matsuzaka and see what his GB rate was.

[D4P]

44.  43
He's on his winter break: he has nothing else to do anyway.

[kinbote]

45.  38 Good point. Penny's inability to go consistently into the late innings is all that separates him from the elite class of pitchers.

[Xeifrank]

46.  42. He looked at the game box scores that he pitched in. I think he only got the outs, but nobody has confirmed that here.

vr, Xei

[Bob Timmermann]

47.  42
Nate went here:
http://www.japanesebaseball.com/boxscores.jsp
and then looked at the somewhat abbreviated play by plays for all but one of Kuroda's starts.

And echoing an earlier comment, Japanese hitters hit more grounders because they are just trying not to strike out.

[Reiichi]

48.  29 depends on your manager!

Wolf had 18 starts of 97 ERA+
Hendrickson had 15 starts of 88 ERA+
Tomko had 15 starts of 79 ERA+
Wells had 7 starts of 89 ERA+
Kuo had 6 starts of 62 ERA+
Schmidt had 6 starts of 72 ERA+
Loaiza had 5 starts of 55 ERA+
Stults had 5 starts of 79 ERA+

Kuo, Schmidt, Loaiza, and Stults all went 1-4 each.

Wells got lucky and went 4-1.

I had forgotten about Wolf. Kuroda will need to do make many more starts than Wolf's 18 to be much of an improvement. The rest will depend on starters #5-6+ being healthy enough to not go 1-4 or god forbid 2-11.

[Jon Weisman]

49.  45 - Where did Penny rank on innings per start last year? I bet it's higher than people think - because of his consistency.

[Eric Stephen]

50.  41
Milwaukee was the only team to get better numbers from outside their "big 3". Gallardo was actually their 6th starter by IP.

I tried to remove all subjectivity from this. We could go through and debate which starter occupied which slot, but in reality the innings pitched kind of determine that. Think of it as a way to show how teams allocated their staters' innings. Perhaps if Gallardo was called up sooner, the Brewers would have had a bigger division lead and would have made the playoffs. But they didn't, and that's instructive.

[regfairfield]

51.  47 I checked there, but could only find them for 2007, is that all there is?

[D4P]

52.  Japanese hitters hit more grounders because they are just trying not to strike out

Are any Japanese teams looking for a centerfielder...?

[kinbote]

53.  49 Penny was 9th in the NL in overall IP. At quick glance, in 33 starts, he pitched:

5 innings or fewer: six times
6/6+ innings: 13 times
7/7+ innings: 13 times
8 innings: once

[Bob Timmermann]

54.  51
I think the owner of the website has them, but he might not have the boxscores on his website now.

[Jon Weisman]

55.  53 - Yeah, I don't know, but I have to think 27 starts of six innings or more and 14 starts of seven innings or more rank highly.

[Eric Stephen]

56.  49
I have my Excel file at home. I can search when I get home, unless Nate isn't busy. :)

I know Penny averaged 6.30 IP per start.

[Sushirabbit]

57.  53, that does surprise me. Penny really impressed me this year. Here's to him winning the CY Young next year (and getting one HR in DS).

[Suffering Bruin]

58.  Dear Eric,

Bravo!

Sincerely,

SB

[regfairfield]

59.  55 Penny was 35th in baseball in innings pitched per start (min 100 IP).

[kinbote]

60.  55 Jon, I'm failing at finding his NL rank for innings pitched. I think you're right, though: his overall consistency is what would place him highly in that category. Another topic up for debate is how much Little's handling of him impacted his pitching line. I wonder how many times he wanted to go out for the 8th inning?

[Johnny Nucleo]

61.  Let me second everyone's compliments on a really interesting piece of work, Eric.

Something I don't fully understand: among the "big 3", the Padres had more innings pitched and a lower ERA, but a lower ERA+ . Does this reflect park adjustments?

[Jack Dawkins]

62.  36 Would you be flying Southwest from an LA area airport? If so, the advantage to flying into Orlando is that you'd likely have fewer stops and plane changes.

I researched this same question last year and I don't believe any carrier has direct flights from any LA airport to West Palm. Plenty directs from LAX to Orlando, though.

[regfairfield]

63.  More importantly, he was 14th in the NL, since comparing him to AL pitchers in unfair.

[ToyCannon]

64.  What a difference a year makes when talking about a Penny.

[kngoworld]

65.  62 Thanks. Those are pretty much the same results I am getting. Most likely going to fly from LA area, but possibly Las Vegas. Orlanda is offering quite a few more trips then Palm Beach.

[Bleed Dodger Blue]

66.  Thumping good read, Eric. Thanks for putting that all together.

[Eric Stephen]

67.  61
Yes, it's purely park adjustments. A league average ERA in Dodger Stadium was 4.57, and was 4.04 in Petco.

Thanks to everyone for the kind words and thanks to Jon for the opportunity!

[underdog]

68.  Hah. Check out Ken's picture on Catfish Stew. Nice one.

And nice work, Eric - this is most illuminating! Considering the Dodgers also have Schmidt (fingers crossed) and Loiaza (toes crossed) plus Kershaw-McDonald-Stults-Kuo, it's hard to imagine how the bottom of the rotation can't be markedly improved over the '07 model.

[underdog]

69.  PS: I like this new font, even if it's just accidental.

[jasonungar07]

70.  Wow great job, Eric. As much as Jon provides great info and awesome persepctive, it's the group and the commentors that makes this site a must login for me daily. Great job everyone.

[Jon Weisman]

71.  69 - The font is called Guestcommentator Gothic Condensed Regular Light.

[jasonungar07]

72.  Fox sports:

Carlos Silva, perhaps the top starting pitcher remaining on the free-agent market, does not figure to be available much longer.

The Mariners are in serious negotiations with Silva on a contract that would be worth at least $44 million over four years, according to major-league sources.

--

[das411]

73.  This is a terrific post! Hopefully we'll all have it bookmarked to come back to when you guys trade Andy LaRoche for Adam Eaton ;)

68 - wasn't this the general consensus going into '07 with Schmidt and Wolf added though?

[Eric Stephen]

74.  73
Going into 2007, the "Big Three" were Schmidt-Lowe-Penny, with Wolf in the Kuroda role, and Tomko/Hendrickson in the Schmidt/Loaiza role, with Billingsley-Kuo in the up & coming role (although most of use here thought Billingsley should have been in the rotation much sooner, if not from the beginning of the season).

Meaning, now matter how much we plan, we will probably need one or more of Kuo, McDonald, or Kershaw to start at some point this season.

[natepurcell]

75.  I only figured out Ground out/ fly out ratios.

They didn't have specifics on whether the hits were groundballs, flyballs or line drives.

I included sac bunts as ground outs and line outs as fly outs if that makes any difference.

What does this mean for Kuroda? If they can get more than 124 IP with an ERA+ of 96 or more out of their newest Japanese import, they will be above average in the National League, and I'd call his season a success.

You could have just used the Kuroda Accord!

[Bob Timmermann]

76.  Now the font... it's all gone...
It's back to normal...

Ahh, it was a good ride..

[Kevin Lewis]

77.  72

Ouch

[Eric Stephen]

78.  75
If anything, this verifies the parameters of the Kuroda Accord.

[Kevin Lewis]

79.  Who is Helene Elliot over at the LAT? She game McCourt a moral/ethical slap on the wrist over the Bennett signing.

[Kevin Lewis]

80.  gave, not game

[Humma Kavula]

81.  I realize that Jon has better things to do than update/change the sidebar, but I would like to propose that the Kuroda Accord be added -- perhaps just under the "TYFNs."

[kinbote]

82.  As a final thought on Penny, I guess it's better to have a pitcher who consistently pitches 6 innings per start than a pitcher who sometimes pitches 8 innings per start. He's done everything we've asked of him, and it's probably for the best we haven't overpitched him. Along with Martin & Saito [and Loney, Kemp, & Bills], he is essentially blameless for our 2007 dud.

[kinbote]

83.  72 I know Nate chides himself for use of the term, but is there anything less sexy than the signing of Carlos Silva? Will anyone in Seattle actually be excited?

[Paul Scott]

84.  79 The slap is not deserved. If there is one thing more than any other that should be taken from the MR it is that Baseball's doping issues are pervasive. A particular player's presence or absence from the report is meaningless. It does not, however, surprise me in the least that a list of names is the most significant thing our sensationalist, lazy and mostly thoughtless media takes from it.

[Bob Timmermann]

85.  79
Helene Elliott is a longtime writer for the LA Times sports section. She has covered hockey for most of her career, but she has been made a general assignment columnist and is the de facto national hockey writer.

She has received the hockey equivalent of the Spink Award and she is also a member of the BBWAA.

[Jon Weisman]

86.  Helene is in the sportswriting wing of the hockey hall of fame or has some equivalent honor as far as that goes. She has become a general sports columnist for the Times of late. Her insight into non-winter sports leaves something to be desired, though she's a less offensive read than others typically are.

[Jon Weisman]

87.  11 seconds...

[D4P]

88.  A particular player's presence or absence from the report is meaningless

Absence = meaningless
Presence = has meaning

[Paul Scott]

89.  88 What meaning and, more importantly, significance do you take from a player's presence in the report? That is, given the pervasive use of PEDs, how would you treat a player named in the report differently from one not named and under what justification?

[D4P]

90.  89
On second thought, I'm more inclined to assume that everyone used PEDs whether their name is in the report or not, so I guess I agree with you (if that's what you're getting at).

[Paul Scott]

91.  90 That's what the MR was getting at. The long list of names were, each of them, just points of data or evidence and each with varying degree of import and strength.

[Sagehen]

92.  86 Every time I read Helene Elliot's winter sports columns, though, I find myself wishing she spent more time developing her skills in covering baseball. Unlike the other Times columnists, she actually leaves the house and interviews the players. The insights re: baseball aren't quite there yet, but unlike other current columnists, she's actually literate. She even writes whole paragraphs! Nor does she resort to snarkiness to fill out a column (although perhaps she did this morning -- I can't say I've read her latest -- Dodger Thoughts is just a higher priority than the Times)

[Bob Timmermann]

93.  A TO Baby! Dickie V's taking a TO!

http://tinyurl.com/2e8j2x

[Disabled List]

94.  That Helene Elliott column rates about 7.2 Plaschkes on the Sanctimony Scale.

[Bob Timmermann]

95.  94
What is the upper limit of the Sanctimony Scale?

Is the scale arithmetic or logarithmic?

[Paul Scott]

96.  IMO, Michael Hiltzik is the best (and only good) sports/sports related reporter LAT has.

[Bob Timmermann]

97.  Not that Hitzlik asked to be put on the sports beat however.

[Jon Weisman]

98.  96 - These aren't my top sports, so perhaps I can't judge, but Mark Heisler and Sam Farmer strike me as among the best in their profession.

[Disabled List]

99.  95 It's logarithmic, like the Richter Scale.

Plaschke himself is capable of a fearsome 10.0, keeping all those in proximity to him ever-cautious of the inevitable "Big One".

[Sushirabbit]

100.  Mr. T, thanks for the HorseHide/CowHide comparison link.