Youth Movement Bullet Points

It does not make sense to blame a youth movement for a team's troubles:

if a team for the most part has been acquiring the wrong veterans

if the ability of young players to fill key roles frees up money for a team to pursue truly great veterans

if a team's young players have been among its most productive, no matter how pampered you perceive them to be

if a team's veteran players are more pampered than the younger players, not only through excessive salary but also a sense of entitlement that means they don't need to play well to retain their jobs

if a team's younger players are held back by a manager who won't let them contribute as much as they can

if a team's true leader is one of its youngest players

if a team's chemistry was a non-issue until the losing started, and the losing isn't the fault of the younger players' on-field performance

if a team hasn't really committed to a youth movement in past disappointing seasons, because in the past the prospects weren't as good as they are now

One of the phonier damnations of the Dodger farm system accuses the team of failing to produce a bonafide star from the minor leagues, despite the Dodger system being highly rated for years. The flaw in the argument is that until recently, these so-called high rankings for the Dodger farm system did not exist.

Both Baseball Weekly and Baseball America had low rankings for the Dodger system as this decade began. As recently as 2002, the Dodgers were considered incompetent at the draft, with their No. 1 pick, two-way player James Loney, an apparent anachronism - a tools player from high school drafted ahead of proven, specialized college talent. That the dim Dodgers were putting Loney at first base instead of on the mound befuddled analysts even further. ...

if a team has preached patience with youth in the past but never really practiced it

if any idiot can see that the team's future is brighter than its past.

* * *

Today's 1:40 p.m. game:

Gameday

Retro Gameday

Comments

[Bumsrap]

1.  AMEN

[D4P]

2.  Here here. (Or is that hear hear...?)

[PlayKempDaily]

3.  If you're a red ass and a butcher with no range @ 2nd base, it does not make sense to blame a youth movement for its troubles.

[Howard Fox]

4.  we all agree Kent is a jerk, and probably a racist, and a poor clubhouse influence, and has very little range at this point in his career, but how many guys on the team are batting .300 and have 20 or more homeruns?

[Bluebleeder87]

5.  I was reminded of Jeff Foxworthy reading this.

[Howard Fox]

6.  Jeff Foxworthy read this?

[Ranma]

7.  Could it be too much to ask Ned to come to the realization that his "safety net" veteran acquisitions are the real monkey wrenches to the Dodgers' prolonged and post-season successes? Things aren't okely-dokely and its high time he move away from his fuddy-duddy way of thinking. Heck, just let Logan White and Kim Ng do his job for him.

I'm sure someone like Dan Evans could do a whole lot better with the current team assets and resources. Evans was really under-appreciated for what he accomplished (e.g. bringing in Kim Ng, trading for Paul Quantrill, and his mid-value bargain trades) and his and would have accomplished (i.e. on the verge of locking Vladimir Guerrero to a contract before the impending ownership change to McCourt) despite him being handcuffed during his entire tenure as GM.

[Gen3Blue]

8.  Hear him, gentlemen.

[PlayKempDaily]

9.  4.

imo, martin, kemp, and ethier will bat over 300 and 20 dingers next year...

martin is the only one this year that got close to those numbers.

[Ranma]

10.  Apologies for the mis-typing in the second paragraph in the previous entry.

[Howard Fox]

11.  9 I hope you are right, and I will root hard for them whether they do or not, but baseball history is littered with guys who shoulda woulda coulda...

and while I think they and the others are good ballplayers, the only ones I see potential greatness in are martin and loney and billingsley, and that would be terrific if 3 of the youngsters were to be great...

[PlayKempDaily]

12.  11. i forgot to add loney to the potential 300/20 club for next year.

I agree with you about Eithier but I think Kemp has serious potential to be great. He has great physical tools. He just needs some seasoning and plate discipline. Oh, and start obeying the 3rd base coaches hold sign! :)

[Izzy]

13.  3 and 4. Uh, no we don't all agree on that.

I agree for the most part with your article Jon. Especially the point on the sense of entitlement, that is exactly what every good player should never have. Neverthless, the complete disregard for what Kent said by some posters here only shows an inflated opinion of their own "baseball knowledge." To say that Kent is a jerk and what he sees and knows on a much more personal level than we will ever see, is as useless as spit, well, that is the point where this board becomes like the Dodger Forum. It seems to me that there are things to be learned on the part of both the kids and the veterans. And it will not surprise me if Kent's spouting off is part of the solution, for everyone involved.

[Bluebleeder87]

14.  (i.e. on the verge of locking Vladimir Guerrero to a contract before the impending ownership change to McCourt)

I didn't even realize/new the real story about that until TC told me during a game once that it was actually Bud Selig (MLB/commissioners office) who blocked that from happening.

[Icaros]

15.  14

It wasn't Selig directly, it was McCourt sucking up to Selig so he'd get to buy the team.

[goofus]

16.  12 Add running to first base on passed balls to your list of things Kemp needs to improve. He may have great talent but I'm starting to think he's a jerk-in-training...

[Bluebleeder87]

17.  13

well I have to admit when I heard Kent's comments on the radio they definitely sounded different but the bottom line IS the kids pulled this ship just as well IF NOT BETTER than the vets & there's #'s to prove that. Another thing is Kent isn't exactly a "TEAM GUY" so you have to take what he says with a grain of salt.

[PlayKempDaily]

18.  13. maybe not ALL of us agree but most do! :)

I wouldn't go as far as to accuse Jeff Kent of being racist, but a butcher @ second? yes

A poor club house influence? Right now yes.

A red ass? YES!

He should let Lugo stick up for himself instead of going public and hanging his manager and teammates out to dry.

If Kent, Lugo, Nomar aren't back next year... this is one dodger fan who wouldn't mind.

[Chris H]

19.  13 Kent is a jerk because he whined to the media. Right or wrong, I don't blame him for his opinions, but if he had a problem with the young players he should have handled it quietly.

[Jon Weisman]

20.  18 - First of all, it's not at all true that most people agree with 3 and 4, not here, anyway.

Also, "red ass" is a term that I'm officially banning here.

Finally, if the worse thing you can say about a player is that he needs to learn not to get thrown out on the bases as much, I'll take that player. As for effort, show me someone on the Dodgers who runs harder than Kemp.

[Jon Weisman]

21.  20 - Let me clarify. I don't think there's a universal opinion on Kent - he's almost too complex for that.

[paranoidandroid]

22.  The thing that put this over the edge in my opinion was the game in SF when Kent hit two homers for our only two runs. We had chances to score, namely a runner at third with one out and Ethier up.

When we lost two of three in SF, that hurt going into the SD series. Had we won at least two in SF, we would have gone to Colorado within a game or two of the wild card after our weekend with AZ and SD sweeping SF.

Maybe Kent is angling for a trade. If not, his motivational attempts don't translate well outside the clubhouse or the field.

The youth is our future and the one thing Kent is right about is that you can't get experience without actually playing. Kemp, Loney, Martin, Abreu, Broxton, Bills, and LaRoche are gaining that every at-bat. They are our future. We'll be better off in the long run with these guys on the field.

[goofus]

23.  18 Well, two of the three will be back, only Lugo will bid us 'Farewell'. Someone mentioned trading one of the kids in the previous thread to teach the others a lesson. Sorry, I just can't see being sent to Boston or New York or even Chicago as being much of a punishment or a lesson. I think every player, even the kids, understand that being traded or signing a free agent contract to another city is a very real part of baseball and there is a 99% chance it will happen to him. They still make lots of money and live well. Sent down to the minors or DFAed, that's a different story.

[immouch]

24.  13/Jon's post
Well said, Jon. Less well said, 13, but I think I see your point, too. It would be arrogant to pretend to know as much about baseball as Kent knows about baseball. However, Kent, in addition to being a 17 year vet and a dynamite hitter of fastballs, is also an idiot. So that sorta cancels out the experience thing. Plus, he (and, apparently, TJ Simers) is critiquing the play of players who happen to be knocking the snot out of the ball every time they get the opportunity to do so. Are young players young? Sure. Is youth often annoying to people who are no longer young? Absolutely. I think, beyond that, we can look to the poetry of, well, I don't know any poets, but I'm sure some have written about this topic.
Also, it's possible to think that two thoughts at that same time - that McCort is an empty hat AND that it's smart to keep the young players when they happen to be Kemp, Loney, Martin, Billingsly and Broxton. The ideas are not mutually exclusive.

[paranoidandroid]

25.  The man is 39 and leads the team in homers and is hitting over .300

He is a gamer. He gets hit in the head and plays the next day.

He wants to win. He wants to win now. In his mind, if the entire team had this attitude we'd be right in this thing still. Perhaps he's right? The young kids aren't experienced enough to appreciate being in a pennant race?

I was hoping Kent would be the veteran that would be mixed into a productive young line-up next year. I remain hopeful that is the case.

[Pedro Astacio]

26.  25. The young kids are playing hard...when they get to play that is.

[Jon Weisman]

27.  By the way, Kemp joins the 23-and-older club today.

[Pedro Astacio]

28.  27. Congrats.

[Bob Timmermann]

29.  In other news, Matt Holliday strained an oblique and may miss today's game in San Diego.

Or more.

[Suffering Bruin]

30.  "... if any idiot can see that the team's future is brighter than its past."

As my students would say, "day-amn!"

This is as close as I've seen my main blogger go the name-calling route. A little vitriol instead of cause and effect. Just a touch of Aristotilean pathos instead of the logos he usually adheres to.

I like it. :)

By the by, in response to previous posts, Simers is terribly important because of his position. Public opinion is shaped by the media and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts Kemp and Loney will be on the business end of Simers' spew for months to come. Dodger fans will follow. Not us, of course, but many will, particularly when Kemp and Loney inevitably take the bait and talk back to Simers who will then have quotes he can shape to his liking.

It's going to happen, people. Heck, it's already happened.

Off to the family breakfast.

[PlayKempDaily]

31.  What does Jeff get out of all this? What was his motivation to go public?

The seasons over, The kids aren't going anywhere?

Maybe it's more to do with grady little?

[Bob Timmermann]

32.  When I was 23,
it was a very good year.
It was a very good for speedy guys
Who hit balls way up into the sky.
With all that greatness inside.
I hope it that we make a plea
Not to get rid of the guy who's 23.

But now the days grow short
We're in the autumn of the year
And now we think of the year as vintage wine
drunk from fine old kegs
from the brim to the dregs
And it poured sweet and clear
But was it a very good year?

[Bluebleeder87]

33.  29

You know what, I'm actually saddened (sp) about that, the Rox are playing there underdog butts off & I for one want the Rox to sweep the Pads

[Bluebleeder87]

34.  30

Not if Josh Rawitch gets a hold of 'em, I'm really rooting for him on this, BIG TIME!.

[Bluebleeder87]

35.  31

Maybe a little of all & sprinkle some frustration in that mix as well.

[Bob Timmermann]

36.  30
The fact that Simers was instrumental in Kevin Malone's ouster shouldn't be overlooked.

[paranoidandroid]

37.  26 I am a big fan of our kids. I don't deny they play hard. My point is that Kent does as well and has for a much longer period of time. He would fit right into this team for next year, at least from my point of view. Unless this disrupts things.

They had a closed door clubhouse meeting Friday night and Kent and Nomar spoke. We won't know what was said. Then Loney's quote hits the next day. Who knows what is really going on. I suspect much of this is basic frustration and disappointment that the season slipped away when we had a real shot of being in the mix.

I am glad Kent is upset about not winning. That is what I expect from a team that wants to win. Is he blaming? I suppose. But without being specific, he might just be saying that we need stability and a defined set of roles for next year.

We are finding our identity this year. I wanted Kemp up from AAA and that made for a four man outfield. I thought that made sense. I also thought Juan would sit at times and that hasn't happened. That means LuGo sat and he had a great first half. That is what frustrated Kent. That and LaRoche who has had accusations in the past of not working to improve enough.

[Jon Weisman]

38.  Just want to be clear that my post wasn't aimed at one person. I said, "any idiot" :)

[Fallout]

39.  20 Jon Weisman

I'm glad that you cut those words 3 out of this discussion board. The raciest statement 4 was also over the top. People don't like what Kent said but yet they say even more venomous things.

[D4P]

40.  BTW: If the kids are as bad as we're being told, where is the criticism of the GM who put them on the roster in the first place? Has Ned taken any criticism in the MSM whatsoever?

[sporky]

41.  Did Simers write TWO columns bashing the Dodgers over the weekend? The man has too much time on his hands:

It's up to Colletti to take control, and so far he hasn't done it. There's talk Grady Little lost the clubhouse, but in truth it's the Dodgers who have lost a grip on their kids.

The kids know they're not going to be traded. They know they're something special, management telling them so over and over again. They have no respect for players like Jeff Kent, Luis Gonzalez and Nomar Garciaparra, who are on their way out, although they should hope to have as good a go of it as those guys.

They have been brought along as a pampered group in the minors, which is going to make it quite the challenge for the next veteran acquired to crack the clique.

And just wait until you really get to know your heroes: Matt Kemp, offering as much promise as any prospect in baseball, but also a jerk in the making and one of those gifted athletes who doesn't necessarily have to work hard to get by.

James Loney, hardworking and solid in performance, is also packing an attitude that suggests he needs no more help to prosper.

You're just going to love cheering for a group of arrogant pro athletes.

[immouch]

42.  simers/kent
i generally like simers' column. he has just one tic i find grating - he pretends to loathe suck-up sportswriters while, at the same time, being the biggest suckup sportswriter there is. to wit, his coverage of kent's tirade. kent blasting his team while that team is still in a playoff hunt isn't leadership, it's narcisism. if anybody else would have done what kent did, simers probably would have described it as such. but kent is simers' bud these days so he gets a pass.
that's pathetic.

[Bob Timmermann]

43.  Simers only criticizes Colletti as working as a puppet for McCourt:

"The Parking Guy had to find someone willing to go along with a plan that calls for the Dodgers to win somewhere down the road.

He hired Ned Colletti, who took orders as a public relations guy for the Chicago Cubs and who then worked as second banana for 11 years in San Francisco -- the good soldier with a history of not striking out on his own. Or second-guessing his boss.

How ironic, though, to find him striking out as GM of the Dodgers so far, toeing the company line, all right, but striking out with one bad Band-Aid hire after bad hire.

One of his first moves might have been his boldest and his best, overpaying by some estimates for free agent Rafael Furcal, but getting a player who has been brilliant, disappointing this year, but more than likely brilliant again. Hard to come up with many more Colletti highlights."

[Howard Fox]

44.  39 I said maybe a racist...and those accusations have been around since he was with the Giants...

[Gold Star for Robot Boy]

45.  Don't forget this gem:
Hard to argue right now with either Kemp or Loney, both finding this game pretty easy to play, and shoving their batting averages into the faces of anyone who might disagree.
As I said at BBTF, that translates as: "I don't like them, but they're hitting so well there's not much I can do except slag their attitudes."

[Jon Weisman]

46.  40 - He's taking it now, but it may be for the absolute wrong reasons. He got the wrong vets, and is being blamed for supporting a youth movement.

[PlayKempDaily]

47.  39.

I don't see how calling Jeff Kent a red ass is over the top. It's a baseball term.

note: last time you'll see red and ass in the same post from me per jons request.

[Gold Star for Robot Boy]

48.  You're just going to love cheering for a group of arrogant pro athletes.
If they win, I won't care. The athletes' arrogance may cause the writers trouble, but I'm not a writer.
Suffer, Simers.

[D4P]

49.  The Parking Guy had to find someone willing to go along with a plan that calls for the Dodgers to win somewhere down the road

Um, wasn't DePo that someone...? We're supposed to believe that McCourt replaced DePo with Colletti so that payroll could be reduced and that we'd have a GM who was willing to use cheap kids instead of expensive vets?

[Howard Fox]

50.  I guess the main point of all this is that Simers is a pretty damn good writer, causes all to pause and discuss his articles, bringing attention and readership to the LA Times...i.e., his job??

[Pedro Astacio]

51.  I don't think Kemp and Loney are arrogant. They seem rather nice to me. it's Ethier that really needs an attitude change.

[Howard Fox]

52.  51 and your personal involvement with, and knowledge of, them was what again??

[Jon Weisman]

53.  Question/Open Chat at Screen Jam.

[KG16]

54.  I'm going to point out one thing about Kent and his desire to win/hatred of losing. In general, those are very good things to have in an athlete. Unfortunately, you still have to communicate those things the right way to your teammates and to the public.

As an athlete, I was almost always the most competitive guy on the team. But it took me a long time to learn how to be a leader. I use to get mad at teammates who were loafing, I'd call guys out, and looking back, was pretty much a jerk. Once I figured it out, things worked much better - but it was at the expense of a couple of potentially very good teams.

That's the biggest problem I see with Kent right now. Sure, he puts up great numbers. Yes, he's driven and competitive. But he's lacking some clubhouse intangibles. At this point of his career I don't expect him to change, but I would at least hope he realizes that being a veteran doesn't mean that he is a de facto leader. Just go out and play your game, be one of the guys - at least as much as you can.

[Jon Weisman]

55.  50 - Being good at his job and being a good writer ... not necessarily the same thing at all.

[Howard Fox]

56.  I happen to like his style of writing. That makes one of us. And us spending the better part of the weekend discussing his thoughts...

[sporky]

57.  From Leung's game recap:

Manager Grady Little confirmed that he met with second baseman Jeff Kent regarding comments he made Thursday criticizing the team's young players. Kent pulled aside one of the youngsters before the game.

I wonder what the nature of that conversation was.

[KG16]

58.  41 - this is LA, we turn arrogant athletes into lovable superstars. All we ask is that they win a championship, or three.

[Howard Fox]

59.  But you are correct, they aren't necessarily the same thing...

[Bob Timmermann]

60.  55
Simers has a position where he can write just about anything and if people disagree he can just claim that they don't get his joke.

Dictators would love such an arrangement.

[Howard Fox]

61.  58 and that the woman they abuse isn't one we know personally

[Bob Timmermann]

62.  Phillies take a 2-1 lead at RFK. On a single by Dobbs who went to second on a bad pickoff throw by the catcher and then on to third when Austin Kearns failed to pick up the errant throw. Carlos Ruiz scored Dobbs with a bloop single.

Cole Hamels is being pinch hit for in the sixth.

Florida leads the Mets 2-0.

[fanerman]

63.  So, what's the basis for calling the young players arrogant?

[D4P]

64.  Simers has a position where he can write just about anything

And there's no one to hold him accountable or challenge him for flip-flopping or any such thing.

Dictators would love such an arrangement

I think Deciders love it too.

[Howard Fox]

65.  62 wouldn't that be something if the Mets didn't make the playoffs

[oswald]

66.  simers hasn't written much about the dodgers this year, but i guess he's only around to kick them while they're down. fwiw, i think he does make a good point about the roster going into next year in that the team is going to be VERY young, and that could be a bad situation. young, wealthy, famous men have a tendency to make bad decisions.

[Pedro Astacio]

67.  52. Spring Training, I saw Ethier refusing to sign autographs.

[eusmus]

68.  Reggie Willits and Dustin Pedroia - "Confident"
Matt Kemp and James Loney - "Arrogant"

Who needs talent when you can have nice guys? I'm sure the Cardinals would love to trade us David Eckstein for some promising youngsters.

[Bluebleeder87]

69.  Little 'ol me ain't reading his stuff anymore, fairness is all I ask for.

[Howard Fox]

70.  66 isn't that why we have managers and coaches?

as I recall, Arizona is quite young as well

[Gold Star for Robot Boy]

71.  Just a hunch, but I think McNabb figured out what he's been doing wrong.

[Howard Fox]

72.  71 did Coletti just pick him up as our set up man?

[Jon Weisman]

73.  56 - He can write. But his thought process is often just way off - sometimes purposely, it would seem. And thinking is part of writing.

[Bob Timmermann]

74.  68
I think there's another difference between the "confident" and "arrogant" groups that you're overlooking.

It's as clear as black and white.

[sporky]

75.  69 - Me neither. I'll take Tony Jackson over Simers any day.

[Howard Fox]

76.  73 I happen to see him as sarcastic and ironic...which I personally enjoy...

[Howard Fox]

77.  74 now look who is calling the kettle black

[Bluebleeder87]

78.  So, what's the basis for calling the young players arrogant?

They rock & they know it!

[PlayKempDaily]

79.  67.

I asked Kurt Gibson for an autograph after an angel game when I was a little and he told me get lost kid. I think he played for the Royals at the time. I'll never forget that day, he was my hero.

[Sam DC]

80.  I looked for that Jimenez jersey today Bob but no luck.

Sold out I guess.

[Bob Timmermann]

81.  77
What can I say?
Gary Sheffield's book touched me deeply.

[Bob Timmermann]

82.  A 2-run homer by Heart and Soul ties it up for the Mets.

Nats threatening to tie it up at RFK with 1st and 3rd and no outs.

[Sam DC]

83.  Don Sutton: "That one would have been low to Eddie Gaedel."

(It was called a strike.)

[oswald]

84.  70 i don't think you really understood my point. i'm not saying that it's doomed to fail, just that there is a certain volatility there that you can't ignore. yes, it's worked before, but i can think of other situations where it has been an unmitigated disaster.

[Fallout]

85.  I question the Dodger farm system and their coaches. How can a player come through the system and have so many basic base running mistakes? I haven't seen many Dodger games to know if there are other issues too, like calling off someone on a fly ball then letting it drop.:) By the time I was 18 I had a good idea about base running because my HS coach was a fanatic at teaching all the fundamentals. If a HS coach can accomplish that...

[Bob Timmermann]

86.  85
You are also assuming that other teams don't have players who make baserunning mistakes.

All teams have players that screw up.

And they're of all ages.

[Lexinthedena]

87.  Been away from DT for awhile...

My grandmother, who was as passionate of a Dodger fan as there could be, passed away on Thursday. Alzheimer's disease is brutal. Had she had her mind, she would have loved this site. Thanks again for creating such a forum.

[Bob Timmermann]

88.  87
You have my deepest condolences. I'm sure she followed the Dodgers in her own way.

[Howard Fox]

89.  sorry to hear it

[Sam DC]

90.  Sad news Lex; that's a real tough road. Hope you and your family're doing OK.

[PlayKempDaily]

91.  That's terrible. :(

[sporky]

92.  87 - I'm so sorry. Alzheimer's is a horrible, horrible disease.

[sporky]

93.  Kid's day (as per Diamond's blog):

Pierre, cf
Abreu, 2b
Kemp, rf
Loney, 1b
Martin, c
Ethier, lf
LaRoche, 3b
Hu, ss
Billingsley, p

[Lexinthedena]

94.  88- It's tue, in her state she had decided that Jackie Robinson was her best friend. It actually made her quite happy.

[Bob Timmermann]

95.  Nats take a 3-2 lead, but Utley starts a great DP against Church to end the inning.

[Bob Timmermann]

96.  93
Apparently, we're speechless.

[willhite]

97.  As long as Grady has decided to go "young" for the day, why not sit JP and start Young?

Juan could always come in to pinch hit and keep his streak alive that way.

[sporky]

98.  In recent weeks, whenever Grady put together a predominantly young team, they've failed to produce. I hope they kick some serious tail today.

[shamrok]

99.  97.

Consecutive games baby!

[Howard Fox]

100.  there must be something in his contract that says he starts every game...isn't he closing in on the consecutive game record?