Wynton Marsalis on jazz, and jazz criticism

Talking with Wynton Marsalis about jazz is a pleasure, as I discovered while interviewing him for a Sunday Arts & Books profile (you can read it here). He plays at Disney Hall on Feb. 12 and 13.

Well, the conversation is more listening than talking. But even after all these years of celebrating "America's music," educating kids about its traditions, and of course performing it, Marsalis still speaks with boundless, captivating energy, as if he had just discovered Duke Ellington.

It's interesting, though, to realize Marsalis is most often celebrated as an ambassador of jazz, as he was last month in a "60 Minutes" profile. It seems his music, notably his trumpet playing, almost escapes comment and criticism. Despite his virtuosity and numerous awards, he has not been immune to some pretty serious takedowns.

Jazz critics Gary Giddins and Whitney Balliett, to name two, have never been big Marsalis fans. Perhaps their views could be summed up in Balliett's comment that for all of Marsalis' dazzling playing, he "fails to stir the feelings, to jar the heart."

As we talked, I was thinking about Marsalis' apparent immunity from criticism, and so I asked him about it. He warmed to the subject and seemed delighted to talk about it.

"I grew up in the South and our way of dealing with each other was teasing, ribbing, making fun and scrapping in the street," he said. "Criticism doesn't bother me so much. It actually made me, when I was younger, more aggressive. But you get into middle age and you lose interest in that stuff. It's not serious. I have friends who will critique me much harder than any review.

"I always tell my 14-year-old son to sit in my lesson when I'm talking about music with my friend [conductor and arranger] Bob Sadin. Sadin will come to my house and we'll sit down with scores and talk about them. Once I came in with a notebook full of what I thought was wrong with one of my symphonies. I said, 'I think this is a problem, this is a problem.' He looked me and said, 'Yeah, I'm sure that notebook is full of valid observations. Of course, what's really wrong will be stuff you have no idea is wrong.' So I learned a lot from him.

"A lot of times, reviewers don't really know enough about what you're doing to have an intelligent comment on it. It's hard to sit down and listen to something one time. A musician has worked on something, it has a lot of references, and it's full of things the reviewer doesn't know. A person doing a jazz review -- how much jazz do they know? How much symphonic music do they actually know? I understand the practical aspect of it. Yours is a piece they reviewed on Tuesday. They have a piece to review on Wednesday. I'm not mad at them. I'm just lucky to have the type of friends and musicians and people dedicated to my music that I do.

"Besides, I'm not afraid of you being yourself. That's America. You know what I'm saying? Elvin Jones told me something once. He was at the Village Vanguard, playing with John Coltrane, and somebody said, 'You know, Elvin, a lot of people don't like what you all are playing.' And he said, 'They better start liking it, because we're going to keep on playing it.'"

-- Kevin Berger

Photo credit: Carolyn Cole / Los Angeles Times

Comments

[Joel E]

I think he is by far, one of the best today, Reminds me of John Coltrane!!

[dlite65]

Did anybody hear Wynton today talking about Miles? First off, the feminine/masculine observation was a little weird. If deep and to the heart is not masculine, maybe Wynton should work on his loving skills. I found that the Beatles comment, although he never did mention "TheBeatles" was maybe correct in its premise, but was totally of the mark in terms of music. When Abbey Road came out George Benson whom I hopefully need not mention who he is. He is a living Jazz Legend. He recorded his version of Abbey Road something like three weeks after The Beatles released the record. My point being. The success of the Beatles is they're songwritting,vocal harmonies and somewhat proficient musicianship. A style in which Wynton implies as Whites playing Blacks music as being the key to they're success. Thats the way America is! I can agree there is some truth to his statements, but let me put it this way. I love jazz and I have listened to more Miles and Beatles than I have of any Marsalis music. All I can say is Wynton keep trying, let loose a little of your feminine side , it worked for Miles.

[Donald Frazell]

Havent read or heard this inteview, but from what you are stating, its dead on. The Beatless are a joke. Their music lullabies, adolescent harmonic structure and no rhythm of any kind. Black folk may listen to the Rolling Stones or far more likely Allman Brothers, but never Beatless. Most is so horizontal in structure, one cant do a thing with it.Eleanor Rigby is the only song i have heard played in a jazz style, and then by middle of the road types like the Crusaders and Benson. Jaco did Blackbird, but Jaco was a genius and built off of it.

Jazz musicians do no play songs, they used chord structures to create around until the 60s, when old "song" style works were no longer sufficient. 1959 was the tipping point with Kind of Blue, Shape of Jazz to Come and Giant Steps. And Benson is more RandB Wave type than jazz, his Blue Benson the only album that could be considered jazz though he has chops. Masquerade is great as a pop album, RandB is black pop, but not jazz by any stretch of the imagination.

And there is the masculine and feminine in art. Miles like Matisse was sensual line and simplified rich color. Coltrane like Picasso was aggressive and attacking, masculine in laying it all out, Miles into minimizing and sophisitcating. It is not an attack on the people, but a pole of creativity. Most artists do both. or in between. But true Marsalis is no where near these two above, at bet a Dieenkorn restating of already created ideas, updating not pushing forward. But we are the creatures of our times, and cant make what is not called for.

Though there is far more than the academics wil allow, and Wynton made his bed with the Pharisees of art, those who keep it but continually mistake themsevles for Being it. They are no Prophets. Wynton is a great musician, but not artist. Too bad, but after his first few albums he chose his path. Or simply followed the one he thought best. So be it.