'Bringing science back into America's sphere' hits a nerve

In Saturday's Los Angeles Times, my article appeared, 'Bringing science back into America's sphere.' The piece is a Q&A with author Chris Mooney about his book "Unscientific America: How Scientific Illiteracy Threatens Our Future," on how science has become less important to many Americans and the threats he and coauthor Sheril Kirshenbaum feel this poses to society.

We've received many letters and phone calls in response to this article and the issues he discussed: religion, Pluto no longer being considered a planet, vaccines, the Internet and how we go forward.

The health aspect of all this is the vaccines-cause-autism issue: Mooney discusses this at some length. He says there are many well-educated people who believe that vaccines caused autism in their children, despite scientific evidence to the contrary.

We've created this post as an open forum for your comments.

What is your opinion on the vaccines-cause-autism issue? Do you think America is less scientific-minded than it once was? 

We welcome your feedback in the comments below.

-- Lori Kozlowski

Photo credit: Tim Sloan / Getty Images

Comments

[Lawrence P]

I have to add that Fourteen Studies was a very poor example of scientific review. They had very specific criteria that really had nothing to do with good science. (For example, one criteria was whether or not the studied looked at a child getting 5 vaccines at once. That was not the specific reasons for these studies, and they never claimed to answer such a question.)

Another criteria was "Conflict of Interest", determined as a connection to a vaccine manufacturer or the CDC. However, these are the same people who put Andrew Wakefield on a pedestal, although he had huge conflicts of interest. (He was being paid directly by an attorney who wanted to sue vaccine makers and he was developing a vaccine to replace the MMR vaccine that was the subject of his study.) However, if anyone mentions Dr. Wakefield's conflict of interest, Generation Rescue treats him as some sort of martyr.

[John Ponzi]

I also found Fourteen Studies to be a ridiculously biased review. While criticizing the studies they disliked (the ones that showed no vaccine-autism link), they supposedly looked at robustness. However, while showing a list of studies they liked, they had a phone survey conducted by Generation Rescue. As if a phone survey was not ridiculous enough, they reported the results for boys, which showed vaccinated boys to be more likely to be autistic. However, they ignored the results for girls, in which the vaccinated girls were less likely than the unvaccinated girls to be autistic.

Also, there is a section called (seriously, I am not making this up) "Good Guys, Bad Guys". Guess who they consider themselves to be?

[Jean Brooks]

Studies have failed to find evidence that vaccines contribute to autism, which is not the same thing as finding evidence to contradict the belief that vaccines contribute to autism. The well-educated parents to whom Chris Mooney refers are able to make this distinction, and so their concern is neither anti-science nor irrational. Studies have yet to be done that would find a relationship, should one exist. Why not use some of the funds authorized by the Combating Autism Act and just do an authoritative study?

[Daniel Joseph Kennedy]

I was very pleased to see your article about the demise of scientific purpose of Americans today. It is a trend that I recognized many years ago, and I think that articles such as yours will expose the decline and possible serve as motivation to change the public's perspective. Unfortunately, science has been adversely politicized in recent years and people, especially young people, just don't have the same respect for science as was once the case.

I am trying in my own small way to help the cause by writing "The Science Lifestyle Blog" found at:

http://sciencelifestyle.blogspot.com/

Through regular musings, I hope to enlighten people to embracing science.

[Teresa Conrick]

Thanks for putting this blog together so people can comment.

My daughter is 16, diagnosed autistic 14 years ago. At that time, there was little known about the science of autism. Her regression into autism was shared with multiple illnesses that people have denied over those years and instead called "co-morbid". Thousands of parents share this story of illnesses and then regression as it is often immune related. The connection is there but the research is scarce.

Interestingly, many of the children also share abnormal viral titers of their vaccinations. Some have no immunity though have had numerous antigens injected while others have 4x or more of the titer yet the vaccine was given years prior. For example, my daughter's mumps titer is 4x the high end of the range yet it has been 15 years since her MMR vaccine. Why is that and why isn't their research into that odd immune connection and all of these children with an autism diagnosis?

We need more research to look at the mechanism of acute and chronic bacterial, viral, and fungal infections in autism. These are part of the time-line for many of the children and yes, it does relate to the timing of vaccines. It may be a general breakdown of the immune system or some other mechanism that then affects brain, gut, and then behaviors - the infamous autism behaviors that involve speech, social, sensory, obsessive- compulsive etc. Strep bacteria seems to be another common denominator that autistic children with tics and ocd seem to share. Clostridia also comes up often and can cause aggression and self-injurious behaviors.

Also, the many food related allergies and severe GI distress items all seem to follow a pattern from one child to the next. More research is needed to examine why so many of the children have an inability to digest and assimilate gluten, casein, soy, eggs, and why peanuts have become so deadly for some. Vaccines often include these ingredients and if it is related then something needs to be done to stop it.

Epidemiological data does little to show the subset(s) of individuals who suffer an injury from their vaccines. More research and case studies need to be done to explore how mitochondria injury or inflammation in general happens and what the possible biomarkers are to autism. Science has not spoken and there are abundant topics to help shed light on the causation issues of vaccines and autism and equally important, the treatments. Many children are losing their asd diagnosis through medical interventions that target restoring a healthy immune system.

[Tim Kasemodel]

Lawrence P:
“Sissi, actually thimerosal was taken out of childhood vaccines since 2001.:”

P;ease provide evidence to refute FDA website:

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/SafetyAvailability/VaccineSafety/UCM096228#t3

Please provide link to reputable evidence:

“He[Andrew Wakfield] was being paid directly by an attorney who wanted to sue vaccine makers and he was developing a vaccine to replace the MMR vaccine that was the subject of his study.”

John Ponzi – Pleaseprovide link to study and reference to location within that hti scan be verified:

“However, they ignored the results for girls, in which the vaccinated girls were less likely than the unvaccinated girls to be autistic.”

Timelord – you seem very resolute as if you are positive – Please give links to the studies that support your statements:

1) “Your children were on the Spectrum from birth and there will be a history of it in your family. It is genetic in origin”

2) “Vaccines do not CAUSE Autism” (Iam not aware of any study that strongly makes this claim)

3) “……you lot should stop panicking over vaccines. Such an attitude endangers lives”

You are all entitled to your opinions – you are not entitled to make up your own facts. We do have studies to look at – the 14 you are so endeared to proclaim – please – NO - PLEASE – give me some studies that show what you say to be true ( identify paragraphs within - do not cite summaries or conclusions).

Tim Kasemodel
Wayzata, MN

[John Ponzi]

Tim Kasemodel - no problem.

http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html

http://www.generationrescue.org/pdf/survey.pdf

The first link is the summary of the study. The second link is the raw data.

Since we are talking about autism, I will use that example. (They also looked at other disorders.)

The summary states that the difference in the girls' groups was negligible. However, for the vaccinated girls, 1% were diagnosed with ASD, while in the vaccinated group 3% were. It is true that the sample size was small, but even though it was larger the sample size for the boys' groups was still too small to make a conclusion.

Also, they say, on the summary, that they think kids get too many vaccinations. However, looking at the data, the partially vaccinated boys had an ASD rate of 8%, while the non-vaccinated boys had a rate of 4%. They conveniently left this out of their analysis.

My biggest problem with this is was a phone survey, yet is classified under the good studies, in their opinion.

[cadalyst]

While vaccines may or may not cause autism, what happens when you inject mercury and other toxins into an already autistic child? Most autistic children's cellular biology is messed up and they are deficient in glutathione and other detoxifying antioxidants. Thus, the vaccines are further damaging the cells of the child since their detoxification mechanisms are broken. Doctors are not testing our precious children to see whether they can properly detox the vaccines or not. Rather it is assumed that if a vaccine is safe for 99% of children, then the remaining 1% can be sacrificed.

[nhokkanen]

Chris Mooney's oversimplified polarization of vaccine safety issues ironically discourages scientific discovery. He fails to realize that denying vaccine injuries contributes to their continuation and lack of preventive study.

I wonder whether his mindset might be altered after a conversation with the following two doctors interviewed by CBS-TV's Sharyl Attkisson last week.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/08/19/cbsnews_investigates/main5253431.shtml?tag=cbsnewsLeadStoriesAreaMain;cbsnewsLeadStoriesPrimary

"Amid questions about the safety of the HPV vaccine Gardasil one of the lead researchers for the Merck drug is speaking out about its risks, benefits and aggressive marketing.

"Dr. Diane Harper says young girls and their parents should receive more complete warnings before receiving the vaccine to prevent cervical cancer. Dr. Harper helped design and carry out the Phase II and Phase III safety and effectiveness studies to get Gardasil approved, and authored many of the published, scholarly papers about it. She has been a paid speaker and consultant to Merck. It’s highly unusual for a researcher to publicly criticize a medicine or vaccine she helped get approved."

ALSO:

"Dr. Scott Ratner and his wife, who’s also a physician, expressed similar concerns as Dr. Harper in an interview with CBS News last year. One of their teenage daughters became severely ill after her first dose of Gardasil. Dr. Ratner says she’d have been better off getting cervical cancer than the vaccination. 'My daughter went from a varsity lacrosse player at Choate to a chronically ill, steroid-dependent patient with autoimmune myofasciitis. I’ve had to ask myself why I let my eldest of three daughters get an unproven vaccine against a few strains of a nonlethal virus that can be dealt with in more effective ways.'"

You can also read about Chris Mooney's selective use of experts from investigative journalist David Kirby:
Discover Magazine Ignores Much of Vaccine-Autism Story
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/discover-magazine-ignores_b_201922.html

No one deserves to be written off as collateral damage in the war on disease. Chris Mooney appears quite willing to let vaccine injury investigations remain undone, and let the injuries continue.

[John Ponzi]

Sorry! It must be late. Here is what I meant to post, after the links.

The first link is the summary of the study. The second link is the raw data.

Since we are talking about autism, I will use that example. (They also looked at other disorders.)

The summary states that the difference in the girls' groups was negligible. However, for the vaccinated girls, 1% were diagnosed with ASD, while in the unvaccinated group 3% were. It is true that the sample size was small, but even though it was larger the sample size for the boys' groups was still too small to make a conclusion.

Also, they say, on the summary, that they think kids get too many vaccinations. However, looking at the data, the partially vaccinated boys had an ASD rate of 8%, while the fully vaccinated boys had a rate of 4%. They conveniently left this out of their analysis.

My biggest problem with this is was a phone survey, yet is classified under the good studies, in their opinion.

(I hope this didn't confuse too many people. Sorry again.)

[John Ponzi]

OK, one more correction and then I am going to bed. (I meant to make this change in my last post, but I hit "post" too quickly.)

The fully vaccinated boys had an ASD rate of 5%, not 4%. This is still lower than the 8% for the partially vaccinated group. Since GR states that they believe children should get fewer vaccinations, this is an important comparison.

[Elizabeth]

Mooney is either ignorant or bought. scientific studies can easily be fixed to produce a certain outcome.

The fact the modern medical community denies the vaccine-autism connection has nothing to do with science and has everything to do with politics.

"One eye witness is worth more than ten who tell you what they have heard." - Plautus, 190 B.C.

Listen to the moms saying "vaccines caused my child's autism"

[Been There, Done That]

The obsession with blame with respect to autism (e.g. vaccines, environmental "toxins", etc) stems from the fear that the parents themselves contributed to a developmental disability through their own genetic errors. The desperation of these parents knows no bounds. They are pathetic, but they are also dangerous to themselves and their autistic children because they cannot brook imperfection in their children.

We live in a consumer society, where people literally believe they can "have it your way". In addition, we have devolved virtue to that of the perfect - you are rich, beautiful, have great kids, a great car, a great home, and so forth. If any of those things don't pan out, our society is very unforgiving - unless, of course, you find someone or something to blame outside of yourself. If you can find that item or person to blame, then you are not unlucky or bad - you just had your "good nature" taken advantage of by another - and you can demand retribution.

I'm sorry for folks who's kids have autism. I'm also sorry for folks who's kids have leukemia or kids that accidentally drown or kids who become so sad they walk in front of a train and end it all. But the myopia of the autism group in particular, their sense of outrage at the world for their misfortunes, has been a singularly sad event. In these parents, the inability to empathize with others' misfortunes seems to be reflected in their children's lack of empathy and control. The apple just doesn't fall far from the tree.

We will likely find there are triggers, just as with childhood leukemia, but the primary fault will lie in unfortunate genetic recombination. In essence, there really is no blame here. It is just unfortunate, and we've got to find ways to mitigate the problem for the child to function with wellness and happiness. In other words, life isn't perfect, and that's the way it is.

[Scientist]

Been There, Done That - I have one objection to your post. I know a few parents of autistic children that do not believe that vaccines caused their child's autism. They really do not like being grouped in with the Jenny McCarthy's of the world. Like someone said earlier, this obsession with vaccines has caused a lot of money that could be used for genuine research to be used to answer the same question continually.

[John Stone]

It is disgraceful that "Been there, done that" should suggest that the parents of autistic people lack empathy - this is pure whimsy and very offensive. The issue is that twenty years ago autism had not emerged as a major social crisis - as something which has huge costs. You cannot have a genetically driven epidemic, so what happened? To hint that one day we might be able to locate a trigger without it actually having any urgency is twisted. If it was only a matter of the public purse it would be negligent - but actually it is being paid for by millions of wrecked lives for which Mr Cynical ("Been there, done that") has no empathy.

[autism dad, MD & PhD]

Dear Ms. Kozlowski,

I find the authoritative stance that 'vaccines don't cause autism' hallow and lacking scientific rigor. It amazes me, as a trained scientist and physician, the blind arrogance that colleagues in high-profile positions spew.

Autism is a behaviorally defined syndrome with multiple genetic and environmental causes, vaccines likely being a trigger for some genetically predisposed individuals (my child being one of them). This is the hypothesis that has yet to be tested, and is probably, not just possibly, correct.

Your supposed science exonerating vaccines as an etiologic factor in the autism epidemic fails to reconcile the simple fact that we are dealing with autism(s). Most studies with negative results (e.g. autism-vaccine studies) don’t get published. Why? Because if you cannot calculate the power of the study (which you cannot for a heterogeneous disorder like autism), then the significance of the results (particularly negative results) are at best dubious. Amazingly, these inadequately powered studies of vaccine-autism fame have been published in NEJM and Pediatrics, yet their results are meaningless to answer THE question: Are vaccines a trigger for Autism? This is due to the politics, not science.

In order the answer the open autism-vaccine question, like it or not, a vaccinated-unvaccinated study will have to be performed (see the NVAC report from earlier this year). Or since this may not be ethical due to the importance of vaccination, perhaps an “every child by two” versus “every child after two” study should be done (ECBT vs ECAT). I don’t see an ethical problem with this alternative vaccination strategy as long as the children are not in daycare. Either this approach or a much clearer understanding of the pathophysiology of autism subsets will be required to answer the open scientific questions.

So if parents don’t trust the statement, “Science is in, vaccines have been shown to not cause Autism,” it’s because anyone educated well enough to understand the science knows this is a flat out lie!

The irony of your article is that in actuality it is you and the ‘Skeptic’ bloggers who are scientifically illiterate.

[Sniff Code]

I wouldn't agree that American's are "less scientific-minded". There is a great deal of anecdotal information that American's absorb, either from the web or from television and to a lesser extent printed magazines. The problem is that the information is anecdotal and equates more to "scientism" instead of science. "Scientism" is easy to ingest and turns complicated ideas into sound-bytes that can be easily parroted by a person who doesn't really understand the principles or nuances of the subject. Real science offers few certitudes, and the people actually doing the research are often not as certain about their ideas as they are presented in published mediums.

[Elizabeth]

This article is an attempt to turn Americans against each other, once again, and an attempt to discredit and isolate people with disabilities and their families. When vaccines become mandatory, our crowd will again be isolated, and punished, for our free thinking and free will.

If the (unscientific) author was genuinely assessing a decline in the amount of people trained in science, he would be looking at the current public education system and the continuous dumbing down of the curriculum taught American children. I had to teach my fifth grader math at home this past year because the curriculum at his school was just plain dumb (thank you for reminding me I have to address science too because that curriculum is dumb as well).

A class full of fifth graders had narrow rolls of accounting paper which they had used to count by certain numbers 2-12. They could choose any number they wanted, and this paper was referenced for things they learned in class. One of the things was estimating (yes estimating!) long division problems. They were not taught long division because the teachers said it wasn't useful!!! Methodology not useful folks!

Also, they were allowed multiplication charts on their desk, with no incentive to memorize 7 X 8 for example, because the answer was right there. As a paraeducator in the fifth grade I can tell you half of them didn't know the answer to that very problem, 7 X 8, because no one had taught them. Amazing. (thank God that changed after I started working in their class)

And science? Fifth grade science is a trip to an island to look at trees, plants and animals. No microscopes, no hands-on electricity activities, no periodic table of the elements, no learning of the function of the body other than sexual, no scientific method, etc.

So, Mr. Mooney, why don't you give discredit where discredit is due? Be the change you want to see.

[Well educated autism parent and researcher]

Timelord,
Your comment that we as parents should accept that autism is 100% genetic and our children were born this way? Curious that my son was a healthy baby and met every milestone until age 18 months when we received a vaccine injury and lost speech, eye contact and developed tics. As a geneticist, I have performed over 5000 SNPs on my son on a thorough genetic analysis. I also reviewed his results with the expert genetic team at Emory Genetics Lab, who admits they are not finding any common SNPs in the autistic population. Fragile x is the only known cause of autism, if you did not know that.
Further, as a geneticist I cannot explain 1 in 10,000 children diagnosed with autism in 1990 to 1 in 100 children diagnosed in 2007. Can you?
If you answer, "better diagnosing" you would be incorrect based on data presented by the Federal Education Agency that other MR diagnoses are not declining with more autism diagnoses.
Epigenetic origin? Likely. Agreed. As would be 1 in 3 American children who have similar immune problems (allergies, asthma, ADD and autism).
I suggest you may want to review the evidence, or lack thereof for yourself before making ignorant statements. The autism community, doctors, researchers and parents are highly educated and informed.

[isjois]

Many parents who have children with autism are not "myopic" and fighting for "their children only". They are also fighting for the:

1 in 3 children who have autism, adhd, allergies and/or asthma
1 in 6 children who have one or more behavioral/developmental/learning issues (incl. adhd)
1 in 9 children who have asthma
1 in 450 children who develop diabetes

Parents (of children w/autism) ALSO care about the children suffering from cancer, autoimmune disorders, the many other diseases/disorders that our children face at higher rates today, as well as the children who are lost to SIDS. Many of us believe that these increases are not "genetic". Some of us believe they are directly related to our overly aggressive vaccination schedule.

Most of our children are not "coming out of the womb" with these diseases/disorders. The majority are being exposed to "something" after birth. What new "something" are most children exposed to after birth - vaccines! Vaccines have NOT been exonerated - in spite of what some on these blog may say.

While our society may be "very unforgiving", the parents of children with autism do not lack empathy or control. The parents I have met on our journey have been some of the most compassionate and educated that I have ever met.

[Dawn Winkler]

Find me some unvaccinated autistic kids and some unvaccinated infants who died of "SIDS". After 13 years of research, I know the truth. Think what you want, vaccinate yourself to death. I really don't care. My living child is healthy and unvaccinated and will stay that way as long as I'm still around.

[Maurine Meleck]

I am happy to see that the majority of these comments are posted by very intelligent persons. I have been studying and reading scientific papers on this subject for almost 10 years now and consider myself very knowledgable. The autism community still wants(as it has for year) an independent study of vax vs unvaxed children to settle this controversy once and for all. Why won't health officials do this?
To bring this story home, both my grandchildren were vaccine injured. The youngest is fully recovered because he received many fewer shots than his older brother. I hear the same story over and over again. Why are these unvaccinated younger siblings so healthy?
Maurine Meleck

[sissi]

John Ponzi, it makes perfectly good sense to me that parents of a child who has been damaged by shots wouldn't continue to give them. Perhaps, this is the reason why so many aren't fully vaccinated. Until we compare unvaccinated children to vaccinated children we can't have a conclusion, even then, perhaps we should go even further, comparing unvaccinated children of unvaccinated mothers to those vaccinated. In the sixties the mothers that had autistic children had rubella when pregnant. Somewhere there seems to be a clue in this. Are we sure these live vaccines aren't hiding somewhere in the body? Can infants shed maternal viruses when they are born if their immune systems aren't disturbed by their own rounds of vaccines? Boys tend to be a bit slower in clearing viruses, is this another clue? With a scientific approach these questions could be answered, instead we are told ,"no trust us, it's been studied and is fine". A lie.

[FreeSpeaker]

It sure does not take long for the pro-infectious disease anti-vac liar merchants of disability and death from AgeOfStupidity to infest a blog. Seems that their conspiracy is quite effective. They suffer from GroupNon-Think.

[Stacie]

I do think America is less scientific minded then it was and I also believe that the pharmacuetical companies pay big bucks to shut science down.

I want to share with you something about my son who is Autistic. I sat down one day and wrote out the dates when my son first had seizures right down to being flagged with autism. I then set that aside and went to the Health Department to get the list of my sons vaccines and find out who the manufacturers were. Then I looked as to see which company had contained Mercury. Well I found 3 to 4 shots that could have contained the Mercury. And wouldn't you know my son had symptoms shortly after the vaccines. Do you call that a coincidence? I can't help but wonder if the vaccines caused autism. Did it trigger autism and my son had a lower threshold then a normal child? I may never know the answers to these questions as they want to stop funding studies. Now don't get me wrong I do immunize the only vaccine he will not get is the MMR. He had a seizure shortly after the shot was given. I will not vaccinate against the H1N1 virus as they are allowing thirmosel aka mercury into the vaccine. The same very thing that could be linking with autism. The damage is done to these kids and the big companies don't want to take accountability. That's what it comes down too. Many things are hidden from the public. It would surprise me if this was won of them. Go figure!