IRAQ: The elusive Iranian weapons

There was something interesting missing from Maj. Gen. Kevin Bergner's introductory remarks to journalists at his regular news briefing in Baghdad on Wednesday: the word "Iran," or any form of it. It was especially striking as Bergner, the U.S. military spokesman here, announced the extraordinary list of weapons and munitions that have been uncovered in recent weeks since fighting erupted between Iraqi and U.S. security forces and Shiite militiamen.

Among other things, Bergner cited 20,000 "items of ammunition, explosives and weapons" reported by Iraqi forces in the central city of Karbala;  an additional Karbala cache containing 570 explosive devices, nine mortars, four anti-aircraft missiles, and 45 RPGs; and in the southern city of Basra alone, 39 mortar tubes, 1,800 mortars and artillery rounds, 600 rockets, and 387 roadside bombs. Read his remarks here.

Not once did Bergner point the finger at Iran for any of these weapons and munitions, which is a striking change from just a couple of weeks ago when U.S. military officials here and at the Pentagon were saying that caches found in Basra in particular had revealed Iranian-made arms manufactured as recently as this year. They say the majority of rockets being fired at U.S. bases, including Baghdad's Green Zone, are launched by militiamen receiving training, arms and other aid from Iran.

Today brought fresh attacks, including an unusual barrage fired at a military base used by British and U.S. forces in Basra, in southern Iraq. A statement said "several" rockets hit the base during the afternoon, and that initial reports indicated two civilian contractors were killed, and four soldiers and four civilians injured.

It was the first reported attack of its kind since March 27 in Basra.

Iraqi officials also have accused Iran of meddling in violence and had echoed the U.S. accusations of new Iranian-made arms being found in Basra. But neither the United States nor Iraq has displayed any of the alleged arms to the public or press, and lately it is looking less likely they will. U.S. military officials said it was up to the Iraqis to show the items; Iraqi officials lately have backed off the accusations against Iran.

A plan to show some alleged Iranian-supplied explosives to journalists last week in Karbala and then destroy them was canceled after the United States realized none of them was from Iran. A U.S. military spokesman attributed the confusion to a misunderstanding that emerged after an Iraqi Army general in Karbala erroneously reported the items were of Iranian origin.

When U.S. explosives experts went to investigate, they discovered they were not Iranian after all.

Iran, meanwhile, continues to seethe after an Iraqi delegation went to Tehran last week to confront it with the accusations. It has denied the accusations, and it says as long as U.S. forces continue to take part in military action in Iraq's Shiite strongholds, it won't consider holding further talks with Washington on how to stabilize Iraq.

—Tina Susman in Baghdad

Photo: Made in Iran? Not necessarily. Iraqi forces prepare to detonate weapons found earlier this month in Karbala. (Army Sgt. 1st Class Tami Hillis) 

Comments

[Dialoguer]

Since the White House is, in cowboy parlance, fit-to-be-tied over Iranian involvement in Iraq, Bush and his neocon(artist) advisers have no one to blame but themselves.

By bringing "democracy" (read: exacerbated sectarian divisions) to Iraq, they have succeeded in installing a Shiite government right next door to the strongest Shiite nation (Iran) in the region.

If the Bushies respected knowledge, history and prudent planning, they should have known that, despite the Iran-Iraq war under Saddam Hussein, whom the U.S. enthusiastically supported at the time, the Iranians have a very long history of ties with Iraq. No amount of U.S. occupation is ever going to change that.

The Bushies try to strike fear in the U.S. about the rise of Iranian power, but their ill-conceived policies have only increased that power.

This is just one more example of the monumental incompetence of the present administration, which John McCain will continue.

[Jim]

We had a presentation a couple of weeks ago from a RAND associate. His blurb says he spent 2007 in Iraq studying Iranian involvement among other things. He assured us that there was hard evidence of Iranian munitions.

After the presentation I told him the Bush administration has no credibility; I needed independent verification. He seemed slightly surprised by my remark. I asked why the evidence hadn't been submitted for international verification.

First he said, they'd been shown to international journalists. Journalists are not forensic weapons inpectors, I said. They were examined by an international team of inspectors he said. Were they all members of the coalition. I asked? Well, yes, he said. Why haven't we asked for an independent international team to verify our findings? I asked. I don't know, he conceded.

He seemed earnest. He seemed decent. He wanted us all to take responsibility for the screw-ups in Iraq. And he trusted what his military buddies (he is ex service himself) told him, without questioning the basis of their knowledge, the reliability of their statements, or the transparency of their intentions.

This is the too often ignored cost of the Bush administration. We can no longer afford to trust what our leaders say. The government has squandered its legitimacy, and our country is weaker for it.

[Briantim]

The U.S. has no business meddling in the affairs of Iraq or Iran. If Iran wants nukes who is the corrupt U.S. to tell them they can't have them? But for the Israeli lobby that controls the stupid gentiles in Washington, we wouldn't even be there.

[William Beeman]

Middle East experts have been trying desperately for several years to make it clear that these military claims of systematic Iranian involvement in attacking Americans is a big fat lie. I am prepared to believe that arms come over the border from Iran, but they are likely smuggled or purchased. In any case, the impetus is from the users, not the suppliers. As others point out, munitions come from absolutely everywhere. However we get neocons like Michael O'Halloran of the American Enterprise Institute claiming that "half of U.S. deaths in Iraq are cause by Iranian munitions: He must say it this way, because he can't identify any group that is doing the attacking. The propaganda machine in Washington finally resorted to talking about "special groups" doing the attacking without being able to identify anyone. The clear aim is to gin up an attack on Iran and justify it to the American people by indicting the Iranian leadership. This is a failing enterprise, but no one cares, and no major media outlet reports this. It looks like we won't know about this awful situation as a nation until we are up to our ears in war with Iran with oil at $500 a barrel, our economy in the sewer, and our reputation ruined until the end of time.

[OD]

That's nothing. I have credible evidence to suggest that the United States invaded Iraq out of the blue for no reason five years ago, and has occupied it against the wishes of its people ever since!

[Joe Shmoe]

In response to Lauren's question, I agree that those neocons actually planned and executed the Iran-contra ordeal in the 80s. That is exactly what is freightening! These neocons are two-faced SOBs that don't care about the US. They don't care about the LONG-TERM impact of their policies. as long as they, along with our great ally, Israel, get the quick high, they're fine. And please, I hope no one calls me any names or puts one of those bad labels on me, because one thing I am not, is an anti-Semite. I am citing facts about the GOVERNMENT of Israel and its strong lobbying groups that have convinced our government to take actions with no measured short or long-term return for the UNITED STATES of AMERICA! And that has to stop! We are not puppets of any of our other allies. We stand up for ourselves when discussing/negotiating strategies with the UK, France, Germany, Canada and all of our other allies, except for .... you guessed it, Israel. Its like the movie, 'Charlie Wilson's War' (with Tom Hanks), where Charlie Wilson, a congressman from TX said there was only one Jewish family in his district, but the Jewish lobbies gave him 80% of his re-election funds, therefore he had to listen to them and do what they asked. By the way, this movie is a TRUE story. What I am saying is, let's make foreign policy decisions that benefit the US first and most. I'd think that's basically common sense.

If Iran is a threat to US, then we must take action; if not, then there is no need to shed more blood. Iran is also different than Iraq. Those mullahs in Iran bark loudly but they are not crazy enough to committ suicide by attacking Israel. they can be bought, and I mean economic agreements are the 'carrots' that they'd fall for; and the sticks are of course our and Israel's military might. So, lets step back and think twice before supporting those hawkish neocons.

[Cyrus]

A simple question: If you were Iran and wanted to illegally ship arms to Iraq- knowing that you have been accused of this in number of times before- would you mark them "Made in Iran" in Farsi ?
An interesting point: The manufacturing date on one of the first batches of "Iranian made' weapons put on display followed a MM/DD/YYYY format. This is not the format used in Iran!
Could it be that the intelligence services of some "friendly governments" are involved in this amateurish operation?

[Michael Gass]

Ok, I admit, I didn't read ALL of the posts... just the one from "beenthere".

Let me tell you... I have "been there".

In 1991, I was deployed into northern Iraq as Air Force Explosive Ordnance Disposal to find and dispose of Iraqi ordnance.

In 2006, I went back to Iraq as a contractor to do the same job; find and dispose of ordnance of ordnance within Iraqi borders.

We found munitions from every country, just as any third world country purchases them. We found Russian, Czech, French, Chinese, you name it.

What I NEVER found was any specifically Iranian ordnance. EVER.

Michael Gass
Formerly of the 39th EOD Squadron Incirlik AB Turkey

[Ano]

Why is this article not being reported by any other news agency?

[Istlota]

Could Esfandiar please post the source of his/her Q & A conversation between Al-Shiekhly and Bergner? As it now stands, the presence of five ellipses ['...'] in Al-Shiekhly's question, yet none in Bergner's reply, _strongly_ suggests that Esfandiar has engaged in some rather extensive creative editing to say what was not said and not say what was said. I could not help but notice that the word 'Iran' does not appear, not even once, in Bergner's response.

[Jane Busby]

There is NO weapons or training from Iran.

And Iran NEVER threatened to wipe Israel off the map.

...And if any of you can present HARD EVIDENCE to me to suggest otherwise, please be my guest.

But in the meantime, just accept that we're being conned AGAIN, into another costly war (for alterior corporate reasons)... and don't cheer on the next war or add dangerous speculation to the mix until you have a very good reason! You are playing with our troops lives, not to mention our tax dollars.

Iran will be MUCH worse than Iraq.

[Steve]

"Beenthere" posted:

"I have served in Iraq and I speak farsi... the weapons that we found were marked in farsi- the weapons, the boxes, the paper in the boxes... for gods sake just walk out of the green zone or go see any FOB in the country and they will show you the mortars and all the other weapons."

If what you write is true, "beenthere", then why does the US government not present this evidence to the world?

Answer: Because, my anonymous friend, your evidence does not exist. Period.

[Steve]

I have noticed that many of the Iraqi puppet government soldiers are wearing uniforms and gear that exactly match the uniforms and gear of a nation utterly foreign to Iraq and the Middle East which nation is currently engaged in massive violent militant operations, including aerial and naval bombardment of Iraqi cities, resulting in massive civilian deaths and dislocations and suffering.

Perhaps the American people should investigate HOW this foreign nation came to be killing Iraqis in Iraq? You think?

[Lauren]

Elliot Abrahms was named deputy National Security Advisor by George Bush in 2005. In case anybody has forgotten about Elliot Abrahms:

"On October 7, 1991, Abrams pleaded guilty to two misdemeanor charges of withholding information from Congress. Abrams admitted that he withheld from the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI) in October 1986 his knowledge of North's contra-assistance activities. In support of his guilty plea, Abrams admitted that it was his belief ``that disclosure of Lt. Col. North's activities in the resupply of the Contras would jeopardize final enactment'' of a $100 million appropriation pending in Congress at the time of his testimony.3 He also admitted that he withheld from HPSCI information that he had solicited $10 million in aid for the contras from the Sultan of Brunei."

I believe NOTHING that comes out of this administration. Their track record is one of constant lies, and they hire people who are convicted liars with agendas.

[Lauren]

Joeshmo,

I agree with most of what you say, with the exception being the neocons wanting to take out Iran since the early 1980s. In the early 1980s the very same neocons who have been chomping at the bit to invade Iran for the past 15 years were in fact involved in illegally ARMING Iran.

Remember Iran/Contra? Look at who the folks were who came up with and executed that plan. Why these Bozos, who have never been right about the outcome of a single plan they came up with are given positions in government, academia, on the news as 'pundits' and in think tanks is beyond me. I think we all need to start calling, emailing and writing in to the news when they appear, and tell the news and their advertisers that we turn off the TV when we see them.

[Esfandiar]

Iran is the only excuse for the U.S to cover their catastrophic war and their incompetence in Iraq. I feel sorry for those simple minded and uneducated readers who still fall in this trap.

[Paul]

Perhaps Tina Susman did not wait to hear the questions and answer session where General Bergner acknowledged the involvement of Iran:

DR AL-SHEIKHLY:
... But now we see that in Iraq there is…there are car bombs and that come from the…that come from Iran, a neighboring country. So five years and until now Iran is or didn’t stop or respect Iraq. So will America still…will we…sitting on the fence or do something about this?

MAJ GEN BERGNER:
As to your second point, I think everyone takes those threats very seriously. And certainly the prime minister’s recent initiative that the Government of Iraq has undertaken to discuss directly with their neighbor the flow of illegal arms and the training and funding of extremists here in Iraq signals the seriousness that the Government of Iraq takes concerning those unhelpful influences.

[beenthere]

I have served in Iraq and I speak farsi... the weapons that we found were marked in farsi- the weapons, the boxes, the paper in the boxes... for gods sake just walk out of the green zone or go see any FOB in the country and they will show you the mortars and all the other weapons.

[shiraz]

Mate iranians can do anything. Even the lawn in my backyard is growing at rapid rate after iranian underground nuclear test.

[joeshmo]

What else is new? No surprise that 1) they haven't found anything, and 2) that the story isn't on the front page. The Wolfowitz, Perle, Feith strategy has an endpoint, and that is the invasion of Iran. Those mofos have been planning that since the early 80s, basically when they along with their fellow neocons began infecting our Republican party. And this is all a FACT. Now we've got 2, maybe 3, more puppets trying to get into the White House to carry the mission for our great brother Israel ... which, by the way, hasn't paid us a penny for all the crap we have endured while "serving" that great Holy country. Of course Hillary is a true neocon. McCain realized in 2000 that he won't win unless he bows down to the neocons. And unfortunately, Obama may be forced to do the same thing. These are some pretty sad times for our nation. We have gone from being a nation that everyone else looked up to, from being the one that everyone loved, to now being compared to the history's most ruthless imperialist powers such as the UK and France a few hundrede years ago. Lets educate our selves and not be brainwashed by the disappointing mainstream media! http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf

[Wilfried Schuler]

Why nobody talks about the destroyer Cornwall any more? Why the "super dangerous" speed boats disappeared from the media? Even the most hawkish journalists at the end had to admit that it was a second gulf of Tonkin. It is known that Lyndon Johnson was not a friend of Gerald Ford. Once he said that Ford were so dumb, he could not walk and fart at the same time. In his time Johnson had no reason to give any comment about the baby emperor. But what would he say today?
Wilfried Schuler (Frankfurt am Main )

[elephty]

It is an interesting coincidence that Israel's chosen enemies are the same ones that this administration chose to single out. It is interesting, because the U.S. is not surrounded by enemies that it helped to create, not yet anyway. When is the U.S. planning to invade Canada or Mexico? We know how unAmerican those two enemy nations are.

[amador]

Get your bloody army out of persian gulf & don't look at behind.the Iranians have enough patience ,but when they run out of patience,they'll give you a lesson that will be written in history for ever.remember 8 years they fought against the world who supported poodle regime of saddam hussain!remember hezbollah's resistance against israeli's zionist.that was just the tip of the iceberg!don't push your luck confronting iran.Iranians are peace loving people,but they'll fight for their country when it is necessary despite the deffernces with rulling mullahs,the most reactionary regimes ever iran seen for more than 2500 years!long live the freindship between iranians & americans!long live peace!amador

[amador]

hello to all peace loving people of the world regardless of their back ground.one simple question: what yankees are doing in neighbouring Iran's,Iraq?eventhough if these so called weapons are made in Iran (which are not),they have the right to defend themselves against U.S imperialist with all means.pack your bloody things & return to your country & look after your bankrupt economy.no wonder you are looking for an alibi to cover your defeat in Iraq & blame Iran for your losses.The iraqi resistance is using all they can get from any country without being dependant on,in order to kick american ass.

[FREE IRANIANS]

FREE THE IRANIAN DIPLOMATS seized by american militants IN IRAQ! Here is video of their family pleaing for their release (english subtitles):

http://irannegah.com/Video.aspx?id=704

[shingles]

why is this buried in the blog section?

[john]

most of the weapons are american.

before sadam became the great satan selling his oil in unholly Euro's he was america's hardman in the region.

he was supplied with thousands of tons of munitions & exuipment including chemical & biological weapons by donald "chemical" rumsfeld.

how much?
well put it this way:
sadam tried to destroy iran - a country of 70million people for 8 years without a single munitions factory - all munitions where being flown in from the u.s. & britain.

that's a lot of munitions.

after the war i'm sure he didnt return the surplus to chemical rumsfeld - he just put it in storage.

[JamesL]

Yes oh yes, WHERE did they come from? You've got my attention now Mr. Military man. Do weapons not from Iran not count? You are the one who brought it up. Don't flake out on us now saying the Iraqi army controls them. That's not a reason--that's a joke. Weapons caches are weapons caches. Russian, Chinese, Israeli, French, American? I really want to know.

[Abarmard]

Even if the weapons found are made in Iran that does not say anything. Iranian borders, from Kurdish region to Baluchi and Khuzestan, where borders Iraq, is the place of daily smuggling of all kind of goods, including gasoline and food. Anything goes across and this is the way things have been for ever in that area. If US government is truly concerned, they can deploy more military to monitor the smuggling activities by the long border. They can't do it, and Iran can't do it. It's like controlling the Mexican border. Anyways, those who believe any individual from this administration must get his head checked.

[Billy]

I have proof of the rockets from Iran that almost killed me yesterday. I don't see why this is so hard for people to fathom. Oh, your sitting on your computer and reading about the war. I'm living it.

Furthermore, weapons don't come from Saudi Arabia. Only suicide bombers and money. I agree that something has to be done about this. However, Republican or Democrat, no one will confront this issue. Money, Money, Money. Don't forget the government in Saudi Arabia isn't establishing training camps, it's rich Saudi's who don't have nothing to do. The Iranian government is actually establishing training camps, not rouge citizens of the country.

Those weapons found in Karbala are more than likely Russian. You rarely ever find American or British weaponry. I found an old 1948 British rifle a couple weeks ago. If it's in American then it was probably taken off a dead soldier after an IED blast.

Those 122 MM rockets in the picture are very similar to the Nasir which is made in Iran, but is an exact copy of the Russian 122mm rockets.

[Hamid]

Many caches of weapons were captured by Kurds and Iraqi police while being smuggled from Iran into Iraq. The record is there.

As an Iranian, I know the postcolonial ideology that motivates the clique that rules Iran. Iranians are innocent because they hate their dictators.

[mark]

The American military has learned the hard way that as soon as they point the finger at Iran, the left in America starts howling "Gulf of Tonkin", the liberal media sides with Iran, and the American military loses more men as Iran is invigorated by the clueless left wing lunatics in this country.

This conflict would have been over two years ago if Iran & the insurgents were not looking to the lessons of the Vietnam conflict in which the enemy was able to turn the American people against their own soldiers to the point of Hollywood celebrities going to North Vietnam to be photographed pretending to shoot down American Air Force pilots.

[Miriam]

At the same time that the rhetoric is heating up again, against Iran as being an enemy....who has never made war on any neighbors in the region in hundreds of years, except having to fight the 8 yrs against Saddam ---in which Israel was key seller and provider of weapons to Iran even AFTER 1979 covertly, of course, whilst telling Reagan that they'd 'refrain'......concurrently we see that the US is making deals and plans to "nuclearize" Jordan and Egypt.
Which means that Israel would remain "ambiguously" non nuclear, with perhaps as many as 500 nuclear and thermonuclear bombs, a non signee to NPT and having NEVER been inspected by IAEA in 50 yrs despite their aging Dimona (textile) nuclear plant near Beersheva.....
Whilst Bush and company are threatening to wage unholy preemptive war against Iran for considering nuclear development and enrichment. THAT is really insane...because their religious government has issued a fatwa in 2005 against ever having or using nuclear weapons.
Further, the West lived with a nuclear armed USSR for 50 yrs but Iran "is a great threat to the US?" this absence of logic defies the lies and rhetoric that led the US to the first Bush/neocon 'cakewalk'...to Iraq..
Its time for war crime trials..now, at the Hague...

[Henk]

I wonder where they did come from? Could it be that a lot of this stuff is coming from caches that Rummy failed to protect after the invassion? Remember we were told that Sadam had stashed the stuff all over Iraq. Remember the hundreds of ton of high explosives that were looted from site the the International Nuke Organization was monitoring.

They couldn't have used all that up yet. Incompetence at a criminal level.

[Bill in Chicago]

Meanwhile, let's be sure to continue to ignore all of this:

http://www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com

We've got Saudi fanatics (and not just Saudi supported fanatics) blowing up our soldiers left and right, and all the administration can think to do is obsess over imaginary Iranian munitions. Pathetic.

[James]

Interesting how Iran has already become a Superpower that can punch way way beyond its own weight! And all this without having any nuclear weapons!

Next, US will probably accuse Iran of attacking their unmanned vehicle near MARS!

The evidence is the light shining on the vehicle at the time is the same light as the one that can be seen shining in Iran!

[bud quarles]

Ok I give up, where were the weapons from? I really woul;d like to know. Saudi Arabia? or maybe just from that stockpile that we were to busy to guard after "Mission Accomplished"?

[jrw]

I have proof that Iran is behind the crabgrass in my lawn!

[azrael]

Iran is home to the elfs. Their military has cloaks of invisibility and magic dust to cast over their rockets when they see u.s. army come close to change the rockets into cookies and cakes.

[Kevin Kaspar]

The American governments are always finding a way to convince it's people to let them attack Iran. How dumb is this??

[Kiumars]

The article only says that the US experts confirmed that the weapons were not Iranian but it does not say where they were made! Were they British and American made weapons? Is a weapon only dangerous if it is made in Iran?
Who is selling the weapons? Who is paying for the weapons? Saudi Arabia?
Where are Al-Qaeda terrorists who are responsible for most of Iraqi civilian casualties come from? Saudi Arabia?

[Mike Rogers]

Ahmadinejad's recent speech, he talks about this

http://irannegah.com/Video.aspx?id=702

[Joaquin]

Why don't we just buy the weapons? For $10 billion a month, we can certainly afford it.

[reza]

I have hard time believing anything that U.S. government tells us any time. So, I am not sure if this piece of info is necessarily trustworthy. Assuming it is, then: 1) U.S. administration (and military) has an egg on their face, and 2) there is no reason why we should keep accusing Iran of all kinds of evil actions in Iraq or Afganistan. Perhaps, it is time that American government considers U.S. interests ahead of Israel's and starts talking to Iranians WITHOUT any precondition.