ISRAEL: Discussing Armenian genocide

A week before Israelis and Jews will mark Holocaust Remembrance Day early May, Armenians throughout the world will be commemorating their own tragedy.

Armenians say 1.5 million people, one third of the ethnic nation, were massacred by the Turks in 1915-1916. Turkey maintains that between 250,000 and 500,000 Armenians were killed during the minority's struggle for independence, and a similar number of Turks. The Armenians are relentless in their push for recognition of the killings as genocide, while an uncomfortable Turkey counters these efforts with international pressure.

In this bitter dispute, Israel finds itself in both a moral and diplomatic hard spot.

For the first time, the Israeli parliament is going to discuss the matter. Knesset member Haim Oron raised the issue, reminding that in recent years the U.S. Congress and French parliament have passed laws recognizing the Armenian genocide. "It is impossible that the Jewish nation will not speak up," he said.

Turkey and Israel are more than geographically close. The two countries share various strategic interests and the thought of a public discussion of the sensitive issue makes both sides nervous.

One possibility is that the issue be discussed in the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee, whose sessions are closed to the press.

"The Armenian issue is very sensitive for Turkey," Hasan Murat Mercan, chairman of the Turkish Foreign Affairs and Defense committee, told Jerusalem officials during a visit last week. "We would prefer if this discussion didn't take place at this time ... because it may harm relations between the two countries." A senior aide to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert replied that Israel believes the issue needs to be settled between the two sides with the involvement of historians, and has no interest in undermining its important strategic relations with Turkey.

Aside from "not denying the occurrence of the terrible events" and expressing understanding of the deep sensitivity, Israel has long avoided a clear public position. Attempts to include the topic in the school syllabus nearly a decade ago failed, authorities being reluctant to anger Turkey and concerned it would detract from the importance of the Holocaust.

In 2003, an Israeli nurse of Armenian descent was chosen as one of the traditional 12 torch-lighters in the yearly memorial ceremony preceding Independence Day. The text she wrote for the government brochure had described her as a "third generation to survivors of the Armenian holocaust in 1915." But protest from the Turkish embassy led the reprinting of 2000 new brochures, stating instead that she was the daughter of the long-suffering Armenian people and that her grandparents were "survivors of historic Armenia."

Reuven Rivlin, a veteran legislator who was Knesset speaker at that time, wrote last week that Israel is obliged to recognize the Armenian genocide: "We cannot, in the name of political or diplomatic wisdom, suppress such fundamental human values, which touch on the roots of our tragic existence."

—Batsheva Sobelman in Jerusalem

Photo: Armenian clergymen commemorate the massacre of some 1.5 million Armenians by the Turks in World War I in the Armenian Church in the Old City of Jerusalem. Credit: MENAHEM KAHANA/AFP

Comments

[fehmi]

Whoever tells about topics which obviously abolish their imaginary past, are labelled as ‘deniars’, as ‘agents of Turkish government’, or ‘people hired by the Turkish government’ or ‘disingenous scholars/authorities’.

And, here are the names of Armenians who comply with the these terms:
The Armenian Soviet historian A.A.Lalayan who stated that the Dashnaks displayed extreme courage to massacre Turkish women, children and ill and old people (Contrarevolyutsionnıy ‘Daşnaktsutyun’ İ İmperialisti-çeskaya Voyna 1914-1918 gg.’, Revolyutsionnıy Vostok, No.2-3, p.92, 1936) was an Armenian deniar and he was also hired by the Turkish government years ago.

Armenian Boghos Nubar, who told that ‘150 000 Armenian volunteers in Russian Army were the only forces against Turks’ (Times of London , 1919 Jan 30 Link: http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/10/2013-150-000-armenian-volunteers-in.html) was also a deniar and agent of Turkish government.

Armenian T. Haçikoğlyan who in a speech he delivered, told that the Dashnaks eradicated thousands of Turks with their bloody hands (T. Haçikoglyan, 10 Let Armyanskoy Sttrelkovoy Divizii,p4-6. İzdatelstvo Polit. Uprav. KKA, Tiflis, 1930) was also a deniar and agent of Turkish government.

Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state founded in July 1918 and the prime authority of the Dashnagzoutiun Party who wrote a book ‘Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore’ and K.S.Papazian, the writer of ‘Patriotism Perverted’ published in 1934, in Boston were the main Armenian deniars. Because:

In both of these books, the writers displayed the terrorist identity of Dashnaks, and their lack of vision. Katchaznouni stressed on that they should have used a peaceful language towards the Turks but they (Armenian Dashnaks) rejected the Turks who suggested to negotiate with them and they went on fighting in cooperation with the Russians. Papazian critized A. Khatisian and the then prime minister S.Vratzian for not publishing the text of Treaty of Gümrü which they signed on December 2, 1920. Gümrü Treaty shows that in neither region of the Ottoman state, did the Armenians make up the majority of the population.

In both books, the writers told about details about Treaty of Gümrü as in the following: 'The discussions resulted in the following agreement: The state of war between Turkey and the Armenian Republic was to be ended. The frontier between Turkey and Armenia was established. The territories designated for Turkey were to remain as such'by refutable historical, ethnic and legal rights'. The two parties agreed to the return of refugees across the old boundaries, with the exception of those who, during the First World War, went over to the enemy's army and those who crossed occupied territories and participated in massacres. Those claims of the refugees who do not return within one year after the ratification of the Treaty would not be heard. The two parties agreed 'to forego their rights to ask for damages'. ... .. In the meantime(December 2, 1920), the Armenian Bolsheviks entered Itchevan and Dilijan....'

And both writers told that the Armenian prime minister Simon Vratzian applied to the Turkish government on March 18, 1921 and asked military help of the Turks against the Bolsheviks!! !!!

Of course, even these few examples give great harm to the present Armenian thesis and lead people to question the Armenian’s innocence, their predominance in Ottoman population, and most importantly their genocide thesis. Of course, the fact that Ottoman government offered the Dashnaks negotiations long before deportation is the major point that is not wanted by the Armenians to be known who make great effort to show that the Ottoman government committed a genocide just aiming ethnic cleansing. And they fear the question of why and how the Armenian prime minister Simon Vratzian applied to the Turkish government on March 18, 1921 and asked military help of the Turks against the Bolsheviks, in spite of that the Turks committed a (so-called) genocide and murdered 1.5 million Armenians!! !!!

So, it is not surprising that both of these books are banned in Armenia. It is also a fact that all the copies of the book of Hovannes Katchaznouni, in all languages were collected from the libraries in Europe by Dashnags. The book is included in the catalogues but no copies can be found in the racks.

Because, Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state and K.S.Papazian were the greatest deniars and the most disingenous scholars/authorities of the Armenian’s genocide thesis.

[TurkishDenial]

Ask yourselves why ASALA and JCAG were started, Armenians were fed up with TURKISH DENIAL!

[Bobby]

Dear esin

I should tell you that Ergenekon is and will always be a stronger force than ASALA, JCAG (Justice Commandos for Armenian Genocide) and ARA (Armenian Revolutionary Army), combined.

Ergenekon is a nationalist/terrorist/criminal organization all in one. Members range from decorated ex military generals to your common purse snatchers.

You are clearly bias with nothing new or positive to say. As I said before,rhetoric doesn't equal to truth, and don't let denial lead to disbelief. Thanks

[THETRUTH]

To Zekiye,

Most scholars or most all countries’ archives don’t accept your argument.

Why would the 126 member of the International Association of Genocide Scholars say the Armenians died of Genocide? (Add the Greeks and Assyrians to that list.)

Why would 23 countries including Germany, Turkey's own ally, say it was genocide?

Do you think they all just took the Armenian’s word for it? Hardly. They each used their own scholars and archives and researchers to come to a conclusion as series as genocide, which grossly differs from the official Turkish denial stance.

Why are there thousands of pages written in our own United States Archives describing the "systematic race extermination of the Armenians"? Because that is exactly what happened.

The Armenian Genocide is a fact. It has already been studied. Your version was created because after all, denial is the last phase of genocide. Your Turkish denialist archives are not all of a sudden going to sway these scholars or these countries. In fact the countries not officially recognizing the Armenian genocide do so out of political concerns rather then factual. This includes the United States.

It has taken the Armenians several generations to regroup from this massive genocidal devastation. This, I’m sorry to say, is not going to go away.

[zekiye]

Mr Booby and Mr Arin,

I am sorry for presenting what you do not want to hear from anybody. Unfortunately, the following which disturbed you, depend on not only Ottoman but non Ottoman (American, English, Germen) documents also:

*that the officials who were found faulty during the deportations were court marshalled in early 1916 (out of 1673 who stood in court, 67 were given death sentences, 524 jail term, 68 row boat and monetary punishments) by Talat Pasha government,

* that in December 1918, a new law letting the Armenians return their homes and claim their properties was issued and that many of them returned their homes,

*that those who returned their homes cooperated with the French and English armies and fought in these armies individually wearing their uniforms during the Turkish Freedom War (1919-1923).

Is it not because of your fear to hear and see what you do not want that the whole Armenians reject any kind of scholar cooperation to shed light to the events which took place in the WWI, including those in 1915?

Mr Arin,
‘Genocide’ is not equal to ‘deportation’ and these terms can not be used instead of each other.

‘Genocide’ which is your accusation, is the greatest crime of humanity. And International Court of Justice or domestic courts are the only authorities reserved to prosecute and proclaim genocide according to the 1948 UN Convention.

Therefore, accusing a whole nation and its generations as criminals of genocide requires strong historical and legal proofs and supports.

You all Armenians claim that all the world supports you but strictly avoid of scholar investigations in cooperation with both Turkish historians and historians from other countries; nor do you go to international courts.

Do not forget that accusing a whole nation of committing a great crime without presenting legal and historical proofs is a great crime too!

[zekiye]

I wonder how easily people forgot all the following:

Did the Armenians not establish outlawed terrorist organizations ASALA, JCAG (Justice Commandos for Armenian Genocide) and ARA (Armenian Revolutionary Army) and did they not perform dozens of murders and hundreds of terrorist activities? Because of these Armenian terrorist organization’s activities, did 70 people not die (39 of whom being innocent Turkish diplomats); were 524 people not wounded; were 105 not pledged? Additionally did these organizations not perform 208 bombing activities during 1975-1986? Then, they did not stop; they only passed on their trade to kill Turkish people to the PKK.

What did the American Armenians do when Armenian Yanıkyan, who murdered the Turkish diplomats Mehmet Baydar and Bahadır Demir in Santa Barbara, California and surrendered the police (and inspired the formation of ASALA afterwards) ? The Armenians gathered around the district and SALUTED the murderer!!

The Armenian criminal of Orly Airport massacre, Karapetyan, a member of ASALA, who was imprisoned for 18 years but set free by France, Armenians’ ally in crime, returned to Armenia in May 2001, he was welcomed by the then Armenian prime minister A.Margaryan, the Armenian folk and journalists who applauded him as if he were a national hero. A. Margaryan told that he appreciated this hero’s service for his country. Armenian Yerivan municipality provided work and house for the MURDERER.

In the lecture of Richard G Hovannisian, held in Florida Atlantic University, on April 2, 2008, one Armenian woman told that the Armenians should have killed more Turkish diplomats!!

The inadequacy of the international community to give honest and evidence-based responses to the massacres inflicted upon Turks/Muslims by the Armenians in Anatolia in the 1st World War, and its tolerance to aforementioned Armenian terrorism, led the Armenians to perform new Turkish massacres during their invasion of the Azerbaijani territory in 1992. The genocide of the Azarbaijani Turks by the Armenians in Hocalı was witnessed by the European journalists: One woman’s fingers were plucked and two men’s skins were flayed. (The Economist March 7, 1992, p.48), some were burned, some of the bodies were destroyed (New Republic Vol 206, No 14, April 6, 1992, p.11); more than 1000 Azarbaijani Turks were massacred (‘Faces of Massacre’ Newsweek, March 16, 1992; ‘Massacre by Armenians Being Reported’. The New York Times, March 3, 1992)].

Here are other examples showing that the Armenians have adopted the language of violence as a life style:
The Armenians committed sabotage upon the house of American historian Stanford J Shaw just because he declared that Armenian genocide did not occur in 1977. They also murdered their own chairman of assembly Karen Demirciyan and prime minister Vazgen Sarkisyan in the Armenian Parliament building, in 1999. Please visit http://raufray.worldpress.com/2008/03/14/armenianterror to see the long list of Armenian terror organizations, including the present ones.

Turkish historians, Turkish prime minister and Turkish Assembly several times suggested Armenia to discuss these events together with historians from both sides and even historians from other countries. Armenia persistently refused. Turkey is ready to face with its history but Armenia is not. By making the parliaments pressure to pass genocide resolutions, Armenia aims to bypass historical and scientific realities and wants to escape from facing with its own history and its own faults.

Therefore, people and countries who support Armenia in its policy, foster and approve violence which had become Armenian national language, instead of supporting dialogue and peace for other countries.

PC: But, when Hrant Dink was murdered, all the Turkish people, president, all members of goverment, deputies, all bureaucrats from all levels, journalists sincerely mourned and condemned the murderer. Millions of Turkish citizens gathered in his funeral ceremony and shouted as ‘we are all Armenian’ with tears. Including the annual Press Freedom Award of Turkish Journalist Association, Hrant Dink was awarded with many prizes, after his death.
Additionally, 60 000 illegal Armenian immigrant workers who are Armenian citizens are working throughout Turkey, at present. If Turkey and Turks also adopted the language of violence, how could these Armenians go on working in this country?

[Artin S.]

I really get frustrated when I read some of the issues that have been raised by the Kemalist/nationalist Turks.
Just to make it clear I will answer some of them.
1) Some of the commentators have said “Many migrated Armenians returned home”. My answer to you is that by that statement you acknowledge that the Armenians had left their homes and escaped to different countries. We call it “Genocide” you call it “Relocation”. In any event that is considered ethnic cleansing. That’s what Milosovic did to the Kosovo Albanians, when he warned them to leave the country or be killed. Moreover, your claims that many Armenians returned to their homes are the most illogical statements. If many Armenians returned to their home, why aren’t there any Armenians in those lands where millions of Armenians have lived for thousands of years? Where are they??

2) Some Turkish Kemalists/Nationalists claim that Armenians joined the French to fight against the Turks in 1918. Well, of course they did!!!! What else did you expect? They were kicked out of their homes and taken away their properties by the Ottomans. Their families were massacred by the Turkish soldiers. Why would they not fight against them.

3) Some other Turkish Kemalist/Nationalists claim that the Armenians were trying to establish a country. Well, again.. OFCOURSE WE DID. Armenia existed way before the Mongolic tribes migrated to Anatolia. Before 1915, the entire world was divided among a couple of Empires. In the 20th century people started to brake away from their empires and rebuild their nations. Serbia, Bosnia, Romania, Bulgaria, India, Syria, Palestine and many other nations broke away from the empires. The Armenians had a right to have their own country as well. The Armenians were brought into the Ottoman Empire by force. We always wanted to have our own country, isn’t that natural????

4) Just to make this clear to the Kemalist/nationalist Turks. Turkish nationalism was made up in the late 19th century by writers such as Tekin Alp (AKA Samuel Raphael Cohen), and Ziya Goekalp, neither of which were ethnic Turks.
Also please go ahead and research the origins of the Young Turks, including Emanuel Carrasso and the Freemasons.
Turkish nationalism was a made up phenomena that was used both against the Turks and the Armenians of that region.

[Bobby]

People, I think we have Heath W. Lowry amongst us.

Disingenuous professors like him and Justin A McCarthy and Bernard Lewis and Guenter Lewy and S. Frederick Starr and ...... are a dying breed.

The truth has entered the schools now, all the books you write will never change history. Samuel A. Weems recently realized the paradox he had created.

Don't let disbelief lead to denial.

[Bobby]

Dear esin

Ok, if you insist there were 1.5 Million people living there and not 2 Million, then where are they now? How many Armenians live in that area now? And if Armenians go to that region, how are they treated??? These are simple questions with simple answers, spare us the lengthy explanations that indirectly/naievly admit a genocide happened.

Again, don't let disbelief because denial.

[esin]

To Bobby,

The sentence 'In the Eastern Anatolia 2 million Armenians were living' is not correct. The total number of Ottoman Armenians including those  who were not relocated was 1.5 million and the number of the Armenians who were relocated was 600-700 thousand (report of Armenian Boğos Nubar Pasha who attended to the talks of Sevres Treaty as a chief of Armenians).

1) And here is the answer of what happened to those Armenians who were relocated: Many migrated Armenians returned their homes. On December 18, 1918, a law which let the Armenians return their homes and claim their properties was issued by the Ottoman State.
The political conjuncture when this law was issued on December 18, 1918 was as follows:

The Ottoman State was defeated in the WWI and the Armenians  demanded the Eastern Anatolia in Paris Peace Conference held in December 1918. Aharonian, Bogos Nubar Pasha and diaspora Armenians worked hard to prove that the Armenian population in Anatolia was adequate for an independent Armenia in Anatolia (Bogos Nubar Pacha, Memorandum, Paris 1918; US.ARCHIVES NARA, Inquiry Doc. No.450). Therefore, they worked hard to make the migrated Armenians to return to Anatolia and especially to Cilicia (Çukurova).

The law which let the Armenians return their homes and claim their properties was issued by the Ottoman State (on December 18, 1918) just at that time and it was a golden opportunity for the Armenians. Therefore, many Armenians who relocated previously returned their homes. Here are evidences from American, English and German Archives about this issue:

*In a report prepared by the Armenian Patriarchate in 1921, the Armenians who lived on the Ottoman territory in Anatolia, Middle East and those who returned to their previous locations were shown as 644 900. It was added that the Armenians who became Muslim, who were hidden and who did not encourage to return their homes were not included but they were assumed to be 20 000 (US ARCHIVES NARA, Mikrofilm No.T1192, Roll8; Department of State Papers….,860).

*In an article published in Der Neue Orient Magazine, it was reported that the number of Armenians in Ottoman Armenia was thought to be 470 000 (including those who lived in İzmir and İstanbul but excluding the Armenians who escaped to Caucasia). Additionally more than 30 000 Armenians lived in Adana and 40 000 in Aleppo (Der Neue Orient May 1919, p.178)

*The Armenian population in Cilicia (Çukurova) was reported as 218 000 in a document dated July 1920 (US ARCHIVES NARA, Mikrofilm No: T 1192R 2;860J.01/395. Appendix. From Acting High Commissioner Dulles to the Foreign Minister).

*  In a memorandum presented by Bogos Nubar Pasha, chief of the Armenian delegation in Paris Conference which started in December 1918, it was announced that 150 000 Armenians were given financial support and taken to Cilicia from Syria, by the French government (US ARCHIVES NARA T1192. Roll 4.860J.01/431).

*In a report presented to American Congress by Near East Relief (NER) dated December 31, 1921, it was reported that nearly 300 000 Armenians returned to Cilicia and they were protected by France and England. …However the poor Armenians had to escape after the French abandoned the region (US ARCHIVES NARA T1192. Roll 4.860J.01/431 and US ARCHIVES NARA M353 Roll 55. Report of the NER to the Congress for the year ending).

* In a report presented by Aneurin Williams, chief of English-Armenian Committee, to Lord Curzon it was reported that many immigrants who were forced to migrate in 1915 returned to Cilicia from Syria, Palastine and Egypt after the Mondros Armistice (UK  ARCHIVES, FO 608/278).  

* In a report presented by the English Black Sea Forces Intelligence Department to the War Cabinet, it was reported that the Armenian population in Anatolia including İstanbul and Edirne was 773 430 in 1914 and it was 658 900 in 1919, excluding that of Erzurum (UK ARCHIVES, WO 158/933, No:5796,1,s.3).

2) What did happen to the Armenians who did not return their homes?
The majority migrated to Middle East countries, Russia, America, France, South America, Australia, India and Iran and did not return.
 
And many died because of contagious diseases and poverty. According to a NER report 12 000 Armenians died because of typhoid fever and other contagious diseases in Harput, Malatya, Sivas, Diyarbakır only during June 1 1921 to January 31, 1922. Additionally 30 000 immigrants out of 80 000 who came from Ahılkelek died because of cholera in 1918 and 200 000 Armenians died because of typhus outbrake and poverty.

Some others who could not return to their homes lost their lives while fighting against the Turks in the Russian, English and French armies they had joined. According to the records of the Leage of Nations, 200 000 Armenians died while fighting in the forces of their allies. Essentially, Boghos Nubar Pasha had announced that 150 000 Armenian volunteers joined to the Russian forces in the WWI.

3) What did the Armenians who returned their homes do?
These Armenians cooperated with the French and English armies and fought in these armies individually wearing their uniforms. Here are archive evidences:

*Boghos Nubar Pasha: ‘In 1919 and 1920, when the Kemalists attacked to the French soldiers, the Armenians made war for France in Maraş, Haçin, Pozantı and Sis. The French succeeded to take back Antep, by the help of the Armenians. Therefore, the Armenians are an ally of France’ (USARCHIVES NARA T1192. Roll 4.860J.01/431).

*A decision made by The American Committee for the Independence of Armenia which was presented to the Lausanne Conference on January 16, 1923: ‘As the minister Bellet declared, the Armenian legionelles (lejyonerler) joined to France after being promised that autonomy would be introduced to Cilicia and therefore they occupied Cilicia in 1918 (carrying the flag of France) . (US ARCHIVES NARA T1192. Roll 4. 860J.01/562).

*Boghos Nubar Pasha: ‘Since 1918, 40 000 Armenians  lost their lives’ while fighting together with the French (US ARCHIVES NARA, 8605.01/438).

*A list of the Armenians who fought in the French Army and died had been displayed under the title of ‘The Armenians who died for France’. In the list, the cities where these soldiers were born were also stated and nearly all of them were Ottoman Armenians (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Palais/2230/ww2.html)

*’The Armenians informed the Allies that they would establish an army of 150 000 soldiers and attempt to establish an independent Armenia in the east (From Berlin November 6, 1917; vorzulegen z.G.K.:W.L.R.Nadolny. German Archives of the Foreign Ministry, Bd.48,R.14097, No.7169).

*’ Armenians massacred many Turks, in the district of Erzincan and surroundings where the Russian retreated’ (The telegram sent by Kühlmann, German ambassador of İstanbul to German Foreign Ministry. German Archives of the Foreign Ministry, Bd. 47, R.14096, No.7165, No.591).

*The report of Pallavici, İstanbul ambassador of  Austria-Hungary, sent to Ottokor Grafen Czernin on February 9, 1918: ‘’The Armenian guerrillas (bands) who fought nearby the Russian armies in Caucausia, misbehaved the Turkish people and Turks in Platana (district between Erzincan and Trabzon) were mass killed’ (German Archives of the Foreign Ministry, No: 13/P.B, Konstantinopel. Wien).

*A news from Norddeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, dated February 14, 1918: ‘The Armenian bands (guerrillas) have been misbehaving Ottoman people barbarously and brutally in districts where the Russian retreated in Caucasia (German Archives of the Foreign Ministry, Der Weltkrieg R. 20145, Bd.279; Norddeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, 14-02-1918).

*A news from Germania Gazette, dated February 23, 1920: ‘English Commission Responsible For Armenia requested help of other states (allies) to arm the Armenians, especially the Cilicians and to protect them.

[Zekiye]

Genocide is the greatest crime of humanity and International Court of Justice or domestic courts are the only authorities reserved to prosecute and proclaim genocide according to the 1948 UN Convention. Therefore, accusing a whole nation and its generations as criminals of genocide requires strong historical and legal proofs and supports. Turkish historians, Turkish prime minister and Turkish Assembly several times suggested Armenia to discuss the events which occured in the WWI together with historians from both sides and even historians from other countries. The Armenians have neither applied to international courts nor accepted to discuss these events in joint commissions made up of historians from Armenia, Turkey and other countries. The claim of the Armenians that international scholars support their thesis is thus meaningless. Does one not ask them ‘then why they fiercefully reject to present their very strong evidences supported by thousands of international scholars to historical commissions made up of Armenian, Turkish historians, in addition to historians from other nations’. If they really believe that they are supported by the scholars of the world, then why are they afraid of proving their thesis?

The other reason why the Turks and Turkish governments do not accept the label of genocide is that the Turkish documents and family stories the Turkish people heard from their own grandparents do not comply with an Armenian genocide. The Turkish Archives demostrate that the Armenians inflicted massacres upon Turks/Muslims from the beginning of 1890’s; that when the deportation were under way, the Armenians of the big cities (and Katholic and Protestan Armenians) were exempted; that officials who were found faulty during the deportations were court marshalled in early 1916 (out of 1673 who stood in court, 67 were given death sentences, 524 jail term, 68 row boat and monetary punishments by Talat Pasha government, before we lost the war); that in December 1918, a new law letting the Armenians return their homes and claim their properties was issued and that many of them returned their homes*, that those who returned their homes cooperated with the French and English armies and fought in these armies individually wearing their uniforms during the Turkish Freedom War and that the documents presented by the Armenians to support their views are full of forgeries.

*According to Armenian Church in Istanbul a total of 644,000 people returned back from exhile. Children were returned to their parents.
* In a report presented by Aneurin Williams, chief of English-Armenian Committee, to Lord Curzon it was reported that many immigrants who were forced to migrate in 1915 returned to Cilicia from Syria, Palastine and Egypt after the Mondros Armistice (UK ARCHIVES, FO 608/278).

[mustafa ka]

The documents the Armenians present to prove that genocide occurred consists of many forgeries. For example:

1) The number of Armenians who were relocated:

The number of the Armenians who were relocated was reported as 600-700 thousand by Boğos Nubar Pasha who attended to the talks of Sevres Treaty as a chief of Armenians. However the number of relocated Armenians is given as 1.5 million by some Armenian sources and 2 and even 2.5 million by some others. However, the total number of Ottoman Armenians including those who live in the West Anatolia (therefore who were not relocated) was reported as 1.5 million in Encyclopedia Britannica’s 1910 edition which was edited by an English editor. Surprisingly, the total number of Ottoman Armenians was increased to 2.5 million in 1953 edition of the same encyclopedia which was edited by an Armenian editor .

2) Aram Andonian’s book (The telegrams which were claimed to have been sent by Talat Pasha to order the massacre of the Armenians which were pressed in the book of Aram Andonian in 1920, in three languages): It was proven by both the Turkish and foreign historians that these telegrams were fake too.

After these telegrams were published in Daily Telegraph in England, in 1922, the English Foreign Ministry made a scrutiny and denounced that they were prepared by an Armenian association.

3) Diary of American Ambassador Morgenthau published in 1918. Professor Heath Lowry, an American historian from Princeton University displayed that the events depicted in the book depended on lies or half true events, by comparing the information Ambassador Morgenthau sent to American Foreign Ministry, with those written in the diary, in his book entitled ‘The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story’, in 1990 .

4) The cover photograph of the book of Tessa Hoffmann: Tessa Hoffmann printed the painting of Russian artist Vasili Vereshchagin depicting a mass of skulls which was painted in 1871, as if it were the photograph of 1915 Armenian genocide, in the cover of his book and had to admit his forgery during the trial of Doğu Perinçek held in Switzerland in March 2007, in which he was listened as a wittness.

[Chris]

Dear Suheyla:

The Poll revealed it was 8% (excuse my mistake) and it was conducted by the Istanbul based ARI Movement.

The Genocide Convention was adopted by the General Assembly on 9 December 1948, long after the Genocide and while the Armenian Diaspora (which was mainly formed due to the Genocide) was still in a state of shock and was not settled therefore it like the Ukrainian Famine was not included.

No one has ever said that the Armenians were not fighting with the Turks from 1895 after the first massacres by Sultan Hamid, It is a known fact that some Armenians did begin to fight for their democratic rights, but the fact still remains the events of 1915 were an act of GENOCIDE.

And as of today the "institute for the study of genocide" aka ISG has concluded what happened to the Armenians was a Genocide so if you want to get the opinion of the GENOCIDE scholars, it was a Genocide.

[Bobby]

A message to all these Turkish history scholars.

Rhetoric doesn't equal to truth. There is enough evidence to support the case for Genocide. This event has been acknowledged as Genocide by many major nations, the US will come to terms when Turkey is no longer a strategic ally.

Here's something to think about. There were 2 Million Armenians living in what is today Eastern Turkey, how many are there now? And how many Christian Churches have been converted to Mosques? Like the Aya Sophia in Constantinople/Istanbul Thanks

[Bobby]

Dear Saheyla

Using your logic you can safely say there is no Moon, after all you haven’t traveled there or at least can’t touch it, it must be some illusion in the sky. Using your logic history books should be rewritten because we weren’t there and we can’t prove it.

Your denial has more holes than the cheese on the moon. Give it up, don’t let disbelief lead to denial.

[Akasya]

The Armenians are sure that Armenian genocide really occured and claim that Turkey does not want to face with her history and so she does not scrap article 301 which restricts freedom of speech. However, Turkish articles obviously do not have any power of sanction on Armenians. So, what is the reason of Armenians’ insistent refusal of Turkey’s suggestions to discuss these events together with historians from both sides? For example:

*In 2004, the Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform (VAT) was founded to exchange documents about the 1915 events by Austrian, Turkish and Armenian historians. After receiving 100 Turkish documents, the Armenians refused to send their documents which they promised, to the Turkish historians and afterwards the Armenian foreign minister announced that they did not want to discuss the 1915 events with historians.

*Armenia refused the Turkish prime minister's and the Turkish Assembly's invitation announced on 13th April 2005 which suggested to establish a Joint Commission composed of historians from both sides and discuss the events which took place during the 1st World War.

*At last, Turkey sent full page ads to five popular newspapers of the United States (US) calling on Armenia to ‘bring light the events of 1915 together with Turkey and to establish a joint commission composed of historians from both sides in addition to historians from other nations’, in April 2007.

*Why did the Armenian historian Sarafyan, who accepted the recent invitation of the chief of Turkish History Foundation, Halaçoğlu, for cooperation to investigate Harput events, abandon the project, after talking the Armenian diaspora?

*Why are the Armenian archives still closed? The archives of Taşnak (Dashnak) Party is present in Zoryan Armenian Institute in Boston. Both Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation offered the Armenians to open these archives; but the directors of the Zoryan Institute replied that they did not have enough money to open the archives. Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation promised financial support.Why did the Armenians refuse this suggestion too? (Nüzhet Kandemir, http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/418517.asp). Note that Zoryan Institute has quite enough money to provide financial support for Taner Akçam who advocates the Armenian claims in Minnesota University.

If a genocide had really occured, why did Brian Ardouny of the Armenian Assembly of America announce ‘We don’t need to prove the genocide historically, because it has already been accepted politically’? Why did the chief of the Armenian Archives in Armenia tell that they were not interested in the achives, but all they are interested is the world’s public opinion.

In your life, have you ever seen a criminal who persistently calls the victim to bring his evidences? And, have you ever seen a victim who passionately accuses somebody of committing crime and giving him great harm but strictly avoids of bringing his proofs before the referees or going to court, and tells that he need not prove that this person’s guilt, because the community has already accepted this person as guilty?

In this situation would you not ask the question of which era you are living in? 5000 BC or 7000 BC?

And what else should Turkey do, to FACE WITH HER HISTORY? Who is afraid of facing with her history? Turkey or Armenia and those who support them?

[aylin ata]

Let us reevaluate Armenia’s persistence on the word ‘genocide’ from a different perspective:

Armenia’s attitude towards Turkey’s land integrity: Article 11 of the Armenian Declaration of Independence of August 23, 1990; refers to Eastern Anatolia of Turkey as Western Armenia and as such beholds that this area is part of Armenia. Since the Armenian constitution recognizes as a basis “the fundamental principles of the Armenian statehood and national aspirations engraved in the Declaration of Independence of Armenia”, it likewise accepts the characterization of Eastern Anatolia as Western Armenia and this, albeit indirectly, translates into the advancement of territorial claims. The Armenian politicians and school books call Eastern Anatolia of Turkey, ‘invaded mother land of Armenia’ and in Armenia the school children are being grown up being conditioned to be patriots to rescue their invaded land. Even the marches they sing are about this condition. The Armenians who write in such blogs that the Eastern Anatolia cities do not belong to Turkey, as if the present Eastern boundaries of Turkey was not determined by treaties of Gumru (1920), Moscow (1921) and the whole boundaries by Lausanne (1923) Treaties; after the Turkish Freedom War.

Additionally Armenia refused Turkey’s recurrent offers to commit an agreement declaring that each country recognizes the other country’s land integrity, in 1992 and later.

Why do the Armenians force Turkey to accept a genocide? The answer is hidden in a speech of the chief of Dashnak Party Hrant Markaryan who told that their efforts for the recognition of Armenian (so-called) genocide was not an isolated purpose but it was a part of the struggle for rescue of the West Armenia (Armenian Forum Vol2 No 4; Armenian Weekly On-line, 18 June, 4 July 2003). The Armenian then prime minister Andranik Markaryan told that the internationally recognition of (so called) Armenian genocide and demanding land from Ankara as 'compensation' was possible only after Armenia had strengthened and the Armenians should not have told that they demanded land from Ankara loudly and everywhere (Arminfo 26 May 2004). On one occasion President Kocharian stated that since today’s Armenia does not have the clout to advance such demands, doing so should be left to future generations at a time when conditions would hopefully be better suited to this end'.

The world should not forget that Germany's claim on Zudetland and Gdansk just because they were its historical lands caused burst of World War II! History is full of wars which broke up because of claims of states on their historical lands. If an item like the aforementioned Armenian item were present in the lawbook of Mexico claiming that Texas, Arizonna, New Mexico and California which were historical lands of Mexico, belonged to Mexico but invaded, would the American tolerate it?

Therefore the world should not overlook Armenia’s aggressivity, which is hidden behind their role of victim and should think about the price of their support to the Armenians very well.

[Truthteller]

Armenian propagandists know no shame, do they?

There can be no recognition because there was no genocide. Instead of focusing on what happened to the Armenians who betrayed their country, perhaps we should spend a little time and attention to the crimes committed by Armenians, fueled by ethnic and religious hatred and bigotry.

The Ottoman government did not intend to kill Armenians, whereas the Armenians most certainly did attempt to kill as many Turkish Muslims as possible, so they could create a bigger Armenia. From coast to coast.

So they plundered villages, killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslim Turks, raped Muslim Turkish women, if women were pregnant, Armenian militias cut open their bellies and cut out the baby, after which they left the woman to die. They collaborated with the Russian government, and tried to ethnically cleanse the lands.

Sadly for them the Ottomans were stronger than they had anticipated, and the Ottomans understood that if they didn't do something, their people would be wiped out by Armenians - who later went on to kill Jews and during World War II were ardent supporters of the Nazis - so they decided to relocate them. Not murder them, but relocate them.

Because it was a time of war, however, many people died during the trip - because of sicknesses, diseases and hunger and thirst. Many Armenians died, but they died regardless of what the Ottomans did; Ottoman archives prove that the leaders ordered their troops to take good care of the relocated Armenians... but because it was a time of war, and because Turks were dying on a massive scale due to aforementioned problems, they quite simply could not take as good care of the Armenians as they wanted to.

So they suffered, yes, and many died. But on purpose? No. Not on purpose.

Is what happened, then, genocide? Of course it's not.

The Armenians, on the other hand, did commit ethnic cleansing. Perhaps it's time for them to spend some attention to their own crimes.

[Suheyla]

Dear Chris,

The United Nations Convention on Genocide dropped warring parties from the list of groups to be protected against genocide upon Raphael Lemkin’s recommendation. Armenians were definitely at war with the Turks from 1876-1923. While Russia, France and England were trying to carve out a piece of Turkish land form 1914-1918, Armenians en masse joined this Great War against the decaying Ottoman Empire on the side of these invaders.

The first prime minister of the short lived Armenian Republic (1918-1920) Hovhannes Katchaznouni in his 1923 Dashnaq manifesto as the party’s long term leader announced in conclusion; “Armenians massacred Muslim population, they were unconditionally allied with Russia, Turks’ decision of deporting Armenians was a rightful measure and Turks acted in self defense”. Incidentally, this book is forbidden to enter the Armenian Republic. Even academician Yekta Gungor with genocide persuasion was jailed for taking a book out of the Republic of Armenia. They must have their unwritten Law#301 that no organization dares to hold a conference in Armenia to examine two sides of the said argument.

Boghos Nubar, the head of Armenian delegation at peace talks wrote in his letter (published at the Times of London in 1919) that 150,000 armed Armenian volunteers fought in the Eastern front against Turks. Also, Ottoman parliamentarian from 1908 -1912 Garegin Pastermadjian who later became Armenian war hero with the assumed name of Armen Garo wrote in his 1923 book published in Boston, how the Armenian volunteer armies of 160,000 were formed and how they caused the Sarikamish defeat with 90,000 casualties to the Turkish Army under command of Enver Pasha. He also boasts about numerous other armed fights against the Turkish Army. Today, the younger generations of Armenians write as if Turks should have lied dead when attacked by their ancestors. In effect they are claiming non-Christians do not deserve self protection.

Again Dear Chris,

Please do tell me out of how many people living in which district of Istanbul, 10% of the Turkish citizens accepted the said events as geno-?

You are still trying to conceal the truth by streaching the truth beyons recognition. Why would anyone do that if the true facts were on their side?

[Suheyla]

Dear Istepanian,

Racial hatred which is the main ingredient of genocide was amply displayed among Armenians in 1915 and they still are full of hatred for anything Turkish. Whereas in other genocide trials only the guilty individuals were condemned, Armenians for a century have continued to carry out hate campaign against anything Turkish, proving they are dangerously racist. Also, being of Arian descent Armenian volunteers participated in World War II wearing SS uniforms. See photo taken by a German war correspondent named Strohmeyer, dated 5 August 1944 showing Armenian volunteers in Nazi Wehrmacht swearing loyalty to Fuhrer in front of a huge Nazi flag.