ISRAEL: Discussing Armenian genocide

A week before Israelis and Jews will mark Holocaust Remembrance Day early May, Armenians throughout the world will be commemorating their own tragedy.

Armenians say 1.5 million people, one third of the ethnic nation, were massacred by the Turks in 1915-1916. Turkey maintains that between 250,000 and 500,000 Armenians were killed during the minority's struggle for independence, and a similar number of Turks. The Armenians are relentless in their push for recognition of the killings as genocide, while an uncomfortable Turkey counters these efforts with international pressure.

In this bitter dispute, Israel finds itself in both a moral and diplomatic hard spot.

For the first time, the Israeli parliament is going to discuss the matter. Knesset member Haim Oron raised the issue, reminding that in recent years the U.S. Congress and French parliament have passed laws recognizing the Armenian genocide. "It is impossible that the Jewish nation will not speak up," he said.

Turkey and Israel are more than geographically close. The two countries share various strategic interests and the thought of a public discussion of the sensitive issue makes both sides nervous.

One possibility is that the issue be discussed in the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee, whose sessions are closed to the press.

"The Armenian issue is very sensitive for Turkey," Hasan Murat Mercan, chairman of the Turkish Foreign Affairs and Defense committee, told Jerusalem officials during a visit last week. "We would prefer if this discussion didn't take place at this time ... because it may harm relations between the two countries." A senior aide to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert replied that Israel believes the issue needs to be settled between the two sides with the involvement of historians, and has no interest in undermining its important strategic relations with Turkey.

Aside from "not denying the occurrence of the terrible events" and expressing understanding of the deep sensitivity, Israel has long avoided a clear public position. Attempts to include the topic in the school syllabus nearly a decade ago failed, authorities being reluctant to anger Turkey and concerned it would detract from the importance of the Holocaust.

In 2003, an Israeli nurse of Armenian descent was chosen as one of the traditional 12 torch-lighters in the yearly memorial ceremony preceding Independence Day. The text she wrote for the government brochure had described her as a "third generation to survivors of the Armenian holocaust in 1915." But protest from the Turkish embassy led the reprinting of 2000 new brochures, stating instead that she was the daughter of the long-suffering Armenian people and that her grandparents were "survivors of historic Armenia."

Reuven Rivlin, a veteran legislator who was Knesset speaker at that time, wrote last week that Israel is obliged to recognize the Armenian genocide: "We cannot, in the name of political or diplomatic wisdom, suppress such fundamental human values, which touch on the roots of our tragic existence."

—Batsheva Sobelman in Jerusalem

Photo: Armenian clergymen commemorate the massacre of some 1.5 million Armenians by the Turks in World War I in the Armenian Church in the Old City of Jerusalem. Credit: MENAHEM KAHANA/AFP

Comments

[hal dem]

Source: Walker, Christopher: "Armenia: The Survival of a Nation." New York (St. Martin's Press), 1980.

This generally pro-Armenian work contains the following information of direct relevance to the Nazi Holocaust:

a) Dro (the butcher), the former Dictator of the Armenian Dictatorship and the architect of the Genocide of 2.5 million Turks and Kurds, the most respected of Nazi Armenian leaders, established an Armenian Provisional
Republic in Berlin during World War II;

b) this 'provisional government' fully endorsed and espoused the social theories of the Nazis, declared themselves and all Armenians to be members of the Aryan 'Super-Race;'

c) they published an Anti-Semitic, racist journal, thereby aligning themselves with the Nazis and their efforts to exterminate the Jews; and,

d) they mobilized an Armenian Army of up to 20,000 members which fought side by side with the Wehrmacht.

[arman]

Turkey will pay the price sooner or later. No one gets away with murder and after all these years turks live like a prisoner to their own guilt.

[zena]

I have noticed from reading all these comments that any information posted by the Turks ,is conveniently ignored by the Armenians, and is only met with more genocide claims and arguments.No one dares to discuss or question the most self-incriminating books ever written by Armenians themselves, such as ,'Dashnaks have nothing to do Anymore' or Patriotism Perverted.This is not Turkish propoganda nor did the writers worked for the "Turkish Government 'as often stated by anyone who feels threatened by facts. It is high time that you people ask yourselves why these books were removed from your country and from libraries around the world.Is it because they are 'lies'? Or is it the raw truth they don't want you to know . .Either way, Armenian people should be allowed to make that decision themselves and come to their own conclusions.

[Abraham]

If the Turkish people and the goverment continue with this you going to be the victims.
Also you going to say nothing happen with the greeks, and other diferent countries.
You say there is no genocide , but the Amenians , documents and history say something different .

Regards Abraham

[Suheyla]

If a tree falls...

What a waste of time. Good thing we engineers are more practical and think in logical terms.

I think you are trying to change the subject and find ways to waste my good ideas instead of answering them. No need to twist the truth. Just face it fair and square.

[Bobby]

Birth***

[Bobby]

Suheyla

Of course Raphael was 10 at the time of the Armenian Genocide, what does this have to do with the fact that a person can learn/study of an even that occurred when they were 10 or centuries before their berth? You're reasoning is very backwards oriented.

The question I asked you is one used in philosophy, and you can answer it after you read about it. It is to show us all your thinking/reasoning capacity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_a_tree_falls_in_a_forest

[Suheyla]

Is this a trick question? "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

I'll take option "d". Please send the check to descendants of Turkish innocent people who died in 1915 if I win a sweepstake.

Please examine the true history in its entirety. There is no need to make forced similies or hypotheses.

[Suheyla]

I watched the mentioned video on the youtube. It is full of opinions. No facts are presented on this propaganda piece.

Looks like you missed my comment below, where I wrote that Raphael Lemkin was only 10 years old in 1915 and any opinion he formed about the Armenian history is based on biased hearsay.

The UN definition of geno- is written wrong in the you tube video referenced above. "As such" meaning for belonging to that groupo is missing from the intent. At the turn of the XXth Century Armenians hated Turks not the other way around. It still continues in the same fashion in XXIst Century.

When the folk songs of 100 years ago were examined, it revealed that Armenians hated Turks and not the other way around. The comments in this column reveal that same racial hatred pattern continues to this day.

[Bobby]

Suheyla

I love how we go in circles. We're back where we started, the UN definition of "intent" to commit genocide. My first post stated Raphael Lemkin presenting the definition for genocide and him using the Armenian Genocide of 1915 as the chief model of genocide and his presentation. I found this video on youtube of Raphael Lemkin giving this such presentation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g6FjTNvs3I at position 1:50.

In that same post I also indicated that rhetoric doesn't equal to the truth, but you still continue to present us with other examples so the seed our doubt grows.

Let me ask you, "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

[Suheyla]

Many specimens have vanished from this earth. So have many nations, cultures and languages. No one ever blamed the survivors for their disappearance.
No nation lives where they used to live once upon a time. Newer cultures appear and generations adopt different survival methods. What you are saying is, since Armenians no longer live in Anatolia Turks must be guilty of wiping them out. Which is not proof of intents to wipe out a nation for belonging to a certain ethnicity. War conditions are excluded from UN definition of genocide.

Why don't you hold responsible your leaders who declared was on the Turks, for the relocation order?

[Bobby]

Dear Suheyla

You ask why are there no Turks living in Yerevan, then you say there were Muslims living there in Ottoman times.

First of all you don't need to be a Turk to be a Muslim and vise versa.

Secondly there are many Mosques still in Yerevan and Armenian proper. The most notable Mosque is the Blue Mosque or Gok Mosque which is located near the center of Yerevan. All in all there are 10 mosques that are still in tact. One thing Armenians didn't do with Mosques was convert them into Churches, which is what the Turkish government has done to all the Churches there.

Suheyla please don't let disbelief lead to denial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Mosque,_Yerevan

[Suheyla]

Dear bobby,

Why are there no Turks living in Yerevan? During the Ottoman Empire, Yerevan's population was mostly Moslem. Did those people evaporate into thin air? Why are there no mosques in Yerevan now? There was no population exchange between Armenia.

My relatives had to escape from the Balkans. Many friends families escaped Westward in front of Russian invasion. History has to be examined in its entirety. It cannot be chopped in periods and locations convenient only to Armenians.

Dennis Papazian's letter clearly shows the qualifications required from "genocide scholars". It is far from being democratic or unbiased. Definitley not fair, not a truth seeker approach. Those academicians cannot claim to be unbiased.

[Suheyla]

Define systematic killing and prove it. Just because you say so does not make it so.

There was no time to organize a relocation. How could any country, in the midst of suffering in wars from 1900-1923 feed its citizens?

I could believe you if the Turkish government was able to provide food for the Moslems and ignored the Armenians, but the Moslems suffered just as much. The Turkish soldiers died of typhoid and cholera. The government could not provide them more than one meal a day.

[Suheyla]

Dear Bobby,

There are two sides to every war. One side loses and the other wins. In the case of the Balkans, the Turks lost. In Eastern Anatolia, the Armenians lost. It is as simple as that. May be you should hold responsible your leaders who pursued a losing battle.

Armenians were less than 16% of the total population in the six Eastern Provinces they wished to declare their independence. This had a lot to do with the unsuccesssful attempt to declare independance for the Armenians.

As for the suffering and the less than warm greeting in the new location, you might consider the terrible war conditions. The Ottonam Empire had been at war for 12 years. They had no money to feed their soldiers. Those soldiers shared their meager food ration with the deportees. Please do not deny the humane treatment of many Turks. No need to conceal that many Armenians found refugee among Turks. Most were housed in Muslims' homes. Turks were condemned to deplorable conditions, themselves. The Armenains definitely caused a lot of the hardship on all the people by causing the losing battles against the Russians. Why don't you ask your leaders who preferred to turn World War I into a terrible suffering?

The Tiflis representative of Dashnaqsutiun, Karekin Pastermadjian, himself wrote in his book called "Why Armenia should be free" 1918, Heirenik Press, Boston, that they could foresee, that Armenians would be relocated en-masse and with great casualty, much before the horrific historic events unfolded (in 1914 Autumn when the Turks offered them autonomy in the six Eastern provinces in return for their support against the Russains). However, the Dashnaq leaders were used to killing Armenians as well as the Mohammedans for their communist ideals.

The Turks are not denying that the Armenians suffered. However, the Armenians refuse to recognise or even mention the fact that Turks also suffered in the same location at the same time frame, because they are forcing the situation to make it fit the definition of geno-.

This is not a peaceful or honest solution. Armenians should shoulder their responsibility and face their history.

[Bobby]

By the way, I also want to say that it doesn't matter how many Armenians were involved or complied with the Ottoman government. Traitors are everywhere and all great nations have seen their fair share. For you to color a picture of Armenians working against Armenians to justify your governments actions is sophomoric and illogical. The fact of the matter remains which innocent people were systematically removed and killed during the years of 1915 - 1917.

You say they were relocated???? well, they weren't met with any welcome committee, they were met with null and void in the middle of the Syrian desert. Please stop this nonsense.

Many people that read this article are college educated, and can see right through you. This argument was debated and agreed upon long before you and I were born, the only reason why it continues is because of disingenuous scholars and ordinary Turks that can't get up from their rude awakening, much like yourself.

Don't let disbelief lead to denial.

[Bobby]

Dear Suleha

Your question was, "Please answer me why there are no Turks/Moslems living in Greece, or the Balkans?"

In 1923 there was an agreed expulsion or population exchange between Greeks, Bulgarians and Turks which also gave these people new religions to warship along with new land to live in. You can read all about it at the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey

[THETRUTH]

Dear Suheyla,

I would call you names like liar however, that would not be the truth. You truly believe the official Turkish denial stance. The lie is all you have ever been fed. Unfortunately you don't know any better. Why do you think there are laws against just speaking of the Armenian Genocide in Turkey? I can hardly believe that an insult is a crime. No, it's really to hide the truth.

The International Association of Genocide Scholars being paid by Armenians is utter nonsense. In fact, it is the Turks that spend multi-millions on Armenian Genocide Denial as is evident that the only non-Turkish historians that argue the facts of the Armenian Genocide are all on the Turkish pay roll.

Dr. Papazzians warning about Hilmar Keiser's true affiliation with Turkish denialists is just, as there is no room for Genocide or Holocaust denial.

To sum it up:

"Millions of Christian Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Armenians labored under Ottoman misrule. The first four broke away, but the Armenian homeland was in Anatolia itself. So in 1915, during World War 1, the Turks decided upon Genocide, and carried it out."

James R. Russell. (Professor of Armenian Studies, Harvard University)

The Armenian Genocide has been studied. It is a fact!

[Suheyla]

Bobby,

You are asking why there are no Armenians living in Anatolia now. Please answer me why there are no Turks/Moslems living in Greece, or the Balkans?

Until 1912 the Balkans, the Middle East, North Africa were a part of the Ottoman Empire. 80% of Bulgarian land was registered to Muslims? Who is tilling their land now?

The Armenians realized they could not live with their former friends once they tried to kick them out of the land which remained theirs for 600 years. So, they left. The Turks lost four fifths of their land as a result of World War I. The remaining Turks were not allowed to use Turkish last names and the historic grave stones containing Turkish names were razed in the Christian ruled Balkans In 20th Century,. Why is it called genocide in the case of Armenians and not Turks?

Admit that you are biased. Some even have a one track mind. If they did not hate Turks they fear they would stop being Armenian.

[Suheyla]

To the liar who poses with the name thetruth,

Your so called genocide scholars cannot keep their positions if they disagree with the Armenian interests. See below how Dr. Dennis Papazian keeps Prof. Hilmar Keiser in check. This is an example of how Armenians control what a so called “genocide scholar” should be allowed to say. Do not pretend like you do not know that the “genocide scholar” position is bought by the Armenians.

From Dr.Dennis Papazian
Danger of Hilmar Kaiser: A Warrning!

“Adrienne McOmber, wife of Richard McOmber, and mother of Armen McOmber, just phoned me to tell me that she and her husband went to a lecture last night at Rutgers University to hear Dr. Hilmar Kaiser, an event unfortunately sponsored by the Armenian Students Society wherein Hilmar, as he has done for the past several years, badmouthed and denigrated just about all Armenian genocide scholars in the US and Europe, including Vahakn Dadrian and Taner Akcam, and put into question the very reality of a genocide sponsored by the Young Turk government against the Armenians in 1915-1923.

The lecture was attended by some apparently high-ranking Turks who smiled and nodded throughout the lecture. They then invited Hilmar to dinner today! They talked with Hilmar in Turkish, but we had Turkish speaker present who understood what was going on.

He is attempting to put into question all the valuable scholarship produced by Armenians and their cohorts regarding the Armenian genocide and thus deny that the genocide was sponsored by the Turkish central authorities, making it only a series of massacres carried out on the local level. This is subversive activity at its worse.

Unfortunately, an important Armenian patriotic organization had unwittingly sent Hilmar on a speaking tour around the United State a couple of year ago, wherein he did the same thing. I received phone calls from all over the United States warning me about what was going on. Knowing his itinerary, I asked people to record his "lectures" so I would have proof of what he was doing. I then contacted his sponsors who replied that "he attracted young people" and was therefore useful.

Finally I had to contact some higher ups who then caused the organization to warn Hilmar that if he spoke against Armenian genocide scholars his tour would be brought to an end.

Now Hilmar is back on the road on a speaking tour, offered free to Armenian student organizations, wherein he is now doing the same badmouthing and putting the Armenian genocide, as a genocide in question. He will speak at Villanova University on Monday, March 31.

The man is a clear and present danger. If he puts into question the work of our best genocide scholars, then the Turks have a natural and effective ally against us. He worked for me several years ago and I had to fire him for his dishonesty. I still have the records.

All Armenian student groups and all Armenian organizations must be warned not to sponsor his talks and also to attend his lectures when they are inevitable, record the lectures and send a copy to me, and be prepared to defend our genocide scholars against his false accusations.”

From: Dennis R. Papazian
papazian@umich.edu

[fehmi]

Whoever tells about topics which obviously abolish their imaginary past, are labelled as ‘deniars’, as ‘agents of Turkish government’, or ‘people hired by the Turkish government’ or ‘disingenous scholars/authorities’.

And, here are the names of Armenians who comply with the these terms:
The Armenian Soviet historian A.A.Lalayan who stated that the Dashnaks displayed extreme courage to massacre Turkish women, children and ill and old people (Contrarevolyutsionnıy ‘Daşnaktsutyun’ İ İmperialisti-çeskaya Voyna 1914-1918 gg.’, Revolyutsionnıy Vostok, No.2-3, p.92, 1936) was an Armenian deniar and he was also hired by the Turkish government years ago.

Armenian Boghos Nubar, who told that ‘150 000 Armenian volunteers in Russian Army were the only forces against Turks’ (Times of London , 1919 Jan 30 Link: http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2007/10/2013-150-000-armenian-volunteers-in.html) was also a deniar and agent of Turkish government.

Armenian T. Haçikoğlyan who in a speech he delivered, told that the Dashnaks eradicated thousands of Turks with their bloody hands (T. Haçikoglyan, 10 Let Armyanskoy Sttrelkovoy Divizii,p4-6. İzdatelstvo Polit. Uprav. KKA, Tiflis, 1930) was also a deniar and agent of Turkish government.

Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state founded in July 1918 and the prime authority of the Dashnagzoutiun Party who wrote a book ‘Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore’ and K.S.Papazian, the writer of ‘Patriotism Perverted’ published in 1934, in Boston were the main Armenian deniars. Because:

In both of these books, the writers displayed the terrorist identity of Dashnaks, and their lack of vision. Katchaznouni stressed on that they should have used a peaceful language towards the Turks but they (Armenian Dashnaks) rejected the Turks who suggested to negotiate with them and they went on fighting in cooperation with the Russians. Papazian critized A. Khatisian and the then prime minister S.Vratzian for not publishing the text of Treaty of Gümrü which they signed on December 2, 1920. Gümrü Treaty shows that in neither region of the Ottoman state, did the Armenians make up the majority of the population.

In both books, the writers told about details about Treaty of Gümrü as in the following: 'The discussions resulted in the following agreement: The state of war between Turkey and the Armenian Republic was to be ended. The frontier between Turkey and Armenia was established. The territories designated for Turkey were to remain as such'by refutable historical, ethnic and legal rights'. The two parties agreed to the return of refugees across the old boundaries, with the exception of those who, during the First World War, went over to the enemy's army and those who crossed occupied territories and participated in massacres. Those claims of the refugees who do not return within one year after the ratification of the Treaty would not be heard. The two parties agreed 'to forego their rights to ask for damages'. ... .. In the meantime(December 2, 1920), the Armenian Bolsheviks entered Itchevan and Dilijan....'

And both writers told that the Armenian prime minister Simon Vratzian applied to the Turkish government on March 18, 1921 and asked military help of the Turks against the Bolsheviks!! !!!

Of course, even these few examples give great harm to the present Armenian thesis and lead people to question the Armenian’s innocence, their predominance in Ottoman population, and most importantly their genocide thesis. Of course, the fact that Ottoman government offered the Dashnaks negotiations long before deportation is the major point that is not wanted by the Armenians to be known who make great effort to show that the Ottoman government committed a genocide just aiming ethnic cleansing. And they fear the question of why and how the Armenian prime minister Simon Vratzian applied to the Turkish government on March 18, 1921 and asked military help of the Turks against the Bolsheviks, in spite of that the Turks committed a (so-called) genocide and murdered 1.5 million Armenians!! !!!

So, it is not surprising that both of these books are banned in Armenia. It is also a fact that all the copies of the book of Hovannes Katchaznouni, in all languages were collected from the libraries in Europe by Dashnags. The book is included in the catalogues but no copies can be found in the racks.

Because, Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state and K.S.Papazian were the greatest deniars and the most disingenous scholars/authorities of the Armenian’s genocide thesis.

[TurkishDenial]

Ask yourselves why ASALA and JCAG were started, Armenians were fed up with TURKISH DENIAL!

[Bobby]

Dear esin

I should tell you that Ergenekon is and will always be a stronger force than ASALA, JCAG (Justice Commandos for Armenian Genocide) and ARA (Armenian Revolutionary Army), combined.

Ergenekon is a nationalist/terrorist/criminal organization all in one. Members range from decorated ex military generals to your common purse snatchers.

You are clearly bias with nothing new or positive to say. As I said before,rhetoric doesn't equal to truth, and don't let denial lead to disbelief. Thanks

[THETRUTH]

To Zekiye,

Most scholars or most all countries’ archives don’t accept your argument.

Why would the 126 member of the International Association of Genocide Scholars say the Armenians died of Genocide? (Add the Greeks and Assyrians to that list.)

Why would 23 countries including Germany, Turkey's own ally, say it was genocide?

Do you think they all just took the Armenian’s word for it? Hardly. They each used their own scholars and archives and researchers to come to a conclusion as series as genocide, which grossly differs from the official Turkish denial stance.

Why are there thousands of pages written in our own United States Archives describing the "systematic race extermination of the Armenians"? Because that is exactly what happened.

The Armenian Genocide is a fact. It has already been studied. Your version was created because after all, denial is the last phase of genocide. Your Turkish denialist archives are not all of a sudden going to sway these scholars or these countries. In fact the countries not officially recognizing the Armenian genocide do so out of political concerns rather then factual. This includes the United States.

It has taken the Armenians several generations to regroup from this massive genocidal devastation. This, I’m sorry to say, is not going to go away.

[zekiye]

Mr Booby and Mr Arin,

I am sorry for presenting what you do not want to hear from anybody. Unfortunately, the following which disturbed you, depend on not only Ottoman but non Ottoman (American, English, Germen) documents also:

*that the officials who were found faulty during the deportations were court marshalled in early 1916 (out of 1673 who stood in court, 67 were given death sentences, 524 jail term, 68 row boat and monetary punishments) by Talat Pasha government,

* that in December 1918, a new law letting the Armenians return their homes and claim their properties was issued and that many of them returned their homes,

*that those who returned their homes cooperated with the French and English armies and fought in these armies individually wearing their uniforms during the Turkish Freedom War (1919-1923).

Is it not because of your fear to hear and see what you do not want that the whole Armenians reject any kind of scholar cooperation to shed light to the events which took place in the WWI, including those in 1915?

Mr Arin,
‘Genocide’ is not equal to ‘deportation’ and these terms can not be used instead of each other.

‘Genocide’ which is your accusation, is the greatest crime of humanity. And International Court of Justice or domestic courts are the only authorities reserved to prosecute and proclaim genocide according to the 1948 UN Convention.

Therefore, accusing a whole nation and its generations as criminals of genocide requires strong historical and legal proofs and supports.

You all Armenians claim that all the world supports you but strictly avoid of scholar investigations in cooperation with both Turkish historians and historians from other countries; nor do you go to international courts.

Do not forget that accusing a whole nation of committing a great crime without presenting legal and historical proofs is a great crime too!

[zekiye]

I wonder how easily people forgot all the following:

Did the Armenians not establish outlawed terrorist organizations ASALA, JCAG (Justice Commandos for Armenian Genocide) and ARA (Armenian Revolutionary Army) and did they not perform dozens of murders and hundreds of terrorist activities? Because of these Armenian terrorist organization’s activities, did 70 people not die (39 of whom being innocent Turkish diplomats); were 524 people not wounded; were 105 not pledged? Additionally did these organizations not perform 208 bombing activities during 1975-1986? Then, they did not stop; they only passed on their trade to kill Turkish people to the PKK.

What did the American Armenians do when Armenian Yanıkyan, who murdered the Turkish diplomats Mehmet Baydar and Bahadır Demir in Santa Barbara, California and surrendered the police (and inspired the formation of ASALA afterwards) ? The Armenians gathered around the district and SALUTED the murderer!!

The Armenian criminal of Orly Airport massacre, Karapetyan, a member of ASALA, who was imprisoned for 18 years but set free by France, Armenians’ ally in crime, returned to Armenia in May 2001, he was welcomed by the then Armenian prime minister A.Margaryan, the Armenian folk and journalists who applauded him as if he were a national hero. A. Margaryan told that he appreciated this hero’s service for his country. Armenian Yerivan municipality provided work and house for the MURDERER.

In the lecture of Richard G Hovannisian, held in Florida Atlantic University, on April 2, 2008, one Armenian woman told that the Armenians should have killed more Turkish diplomats!!

The inadequacy of the international community to give honest and evidence-based responses to the massacres inflicted upon Turks/Muslims by the Armenians in Anatolia in the 1st World War, and its tolerance to aforementioned Armenian terrorism, led the Armenians to perform new Turkish massacres during their invasion of the Azerbaijani territory in 1992. The genocide of the Azarbaijani Turks by the Armenians in Hocalı was witnessed by the European journalists: One woman’s fingers were plucked and two men’s skins were flayed. (The Economist March 7, 1992, p.48), some were burned, some of the bodies were destroyed (New Republic Vol 206, No 14, April 6, 1992, p.11); more than 1000 Azarbaijani Turks were massacred (‘Faces of Massacre’ Newsweek, March 16, 1992; ‘Massacre by Armenians Being Reported’. The New York Times, March 3, 1992)].

Here are other examples showing that the Armenians have adopted the language of violence as a life style:
The Armenians committed sabotage upon the house of American historian Stanford J Shaw just because he declared that Armenian genocide did not occur in 1977. They also murdered their own chairman of assembly Karen Demirciyan and prime minister Vazgen Sarkisyan in the Armenian Parliament building, in 1999. Please visit http://raufray.worldpress.com/2008/03/14/armenianterror to see the long list of Armenian terror organizations, including the present ones.

Turkish historians, Turkish prime minister and Turkish Assembly several times suggested Armenia to discuss these events together with historians from both sides and even historians from other countries. Armenia persistently refused. Turkey is ready to face with its history but Armenia is not. By making the parliaments pressure to pass genocide resolutions, Armenia aims to bypass historical and scientific realities and wants to escape from facing with its own history and its own faults.

Therefore, people and countries who support Armenia in its policy, foster and approve violence which had become Armenian national language, instead of supporting dialogue and peace for other countries.

PC: But, when Hrant Dink was murdered, all the Turkish people, president, all members of goverment, deputies, all bureaucrats from all levels, journalists sincerely mourned and condemned the murderer. Millions of Turkish citizens gathered in his funeral ceremony and shouted as ‘we are all Armenian’ with tears. Including the annual Press Freedom Award of Turkish Journalist Association, Hrant Dink was awarded with many prizes, after his death.
Additionally, 60 000 illegal Armenian immigrant workers who are Armenian citizens are working throughout Turkey, at present. If Turkey and Turks also adopted the language of violence, how could these Armenians go on working in this country?

[Artin S.]

I really get frustrated when I read some of the issues that have been raised by the Kemalist/nationalist Turks.
Just to make it clear I will answer some of them.
1) Some of the commentators have said “Many migrated Armenians returned home”. My answer to you is that by that statement you acknowledge that the Armenians had left their homes and escaped to different countries. We call it “Genocide” you call it “Relocation”. In any event that is considered ethnic cleansing. That’s what Milosovic did to the Kosovo Albanians, when he warned them to leave the country or be killed. Moreover, your claims that many Armenians returned to their homes are the most illogical statements. If many Armenians returned to their home, why aren’t there any Armenians in those lands where millions of Armenians have lived for thousands of years? Where are they??

2) Some Turkish Kemalists/Nationalists claim that Armenians joined the French to fight against the Turks in 1918. Well, of course they did!!!! What else did you expect? They were kicked out of their homes and taken away their properties by the Ottomans. Their families were massacred by the Turkish soldiers. Why would they not fight against them.

3) Some other Turkish Kemalist/Nationalists claim that the Armenians were trying to establish a country. Well, again.. OFCOURSE WE DID. Armenia existed way before the Mongolic tribes migrated to Anatolia. Before 1915, the entire world was divided among a couple of Empires. In the 20th century people started to brake away from their empires and rebuild their nations. Serbia, Bosnia, Romania, Bulgaria, India, Syria, Palestine and many other nations broke away from the empires. The Armenians had a right to have their own country as well. The Armenians were brought into the Ottoman Empire by force. We always wanted to have our own country, isn’t that natural????

4) Just to make this clear to the Kemalist/nationalist Turks. Turkish nationalism was made up in the late 19th century by writers such as Tekin Alp (AKA Samuel Raphael Cohen), and Ziya Goekalp, neither of which were ethnic Turks.
Also please go ahead and research the origins of the Young Turks, including Emanuel Carrasso and the Freemasons.
Turkish nationalism was a made up phenomena that was used both against the Turks and the Armenians of that region.

[Bobby]

People, I think we have Heath W. Lowry amongst us.

Disingenuous professors like him and Justin A McCarthy and Bernard Lewis and Guenter Lewy and S. Frederick Starr and ...... are a dying breed.

The truth has entered the schools now, all the books you write will never change history. Samuel A. Weems recently realized the paradox he had created.

Don't let disbelief lead to denial.

[Bobby]

Dear esin

Ok, if you insist there were 1.5 Million people living there and not 2 Million, then where are they now? How many Armenians live in that area now? And if Armenians go to that region, how are they treated??? These are simple questions with simple answers, spare us the lengthy explanations that indirectly/naievly admit a genocide happened.

Again, don't let disbelief because denial.

[esin]

To Bobby,

The sentence 'In the Eastern Anatolia 2 million Armenians were living' is not correct. The total number of Ottoman Armenians including those  who were not relocated was 1.5 million and the number of the Armenians who were relocated was 600-700 thousand (report of Armenian Boğos Nubar Pasha who attended to the talks of Sevres Treaty as a chief of Armenians).

1) And here is the answer of what happened to those Armenians who were relocated: Many migrated Armenians returned their homes. On December 18, 1918, a law which let the Armenians return their homes and claim their properties was issued by the Ottoman State.
The political conjuncture when this law was issued on December 18, 1918 was as follows:

The Ottoman State was defeated in the WWI and the Armenians  demanded the Eastern Anatolia in Paris Peace Conference held in December 1918. Aharonian, Bogos Nubar Pasha and diaspora Armenians worked hard to prove that the Armenian population in Anatolia was adequate for an independent Armenia in Anatolia (Bogos Nubar Pacha, Memorandum, Paris 1918; US.ARCHIVES NARA, Inquiry Doc. No.450). Therefore, they worked hard to make the migrated Armenians to return to Anatolia and especially to Cilicia (Çukurova).

The law which let the Armenians return their homes and claim their properties was issued by the Ottoman State (on December 18, 1918) just at that time and it was a golden opportunity for the Armenians. Therefore, many Armenians who relocated previously returned their homes. Here are evidences from American, English and German Archives about this issue:

*In a report prepared by the Armenian Patriarchate in 1921, the Armenians who lived on the Ottoman territory in Anatolia, Middle East and those who returned to their previous locations were shown as 644 900. It was added that the Armenians who became Muslim, who were hidden and who did not encourage to return their homes were not included but they were assumed to be 20 000 (US ARCHIVES NARA, Mikrofilm No.T1192, Roll8; Department of State Papers….,860).

*In an article published in Der Neue Orient Magazine, it was reported that the number of Armenians in Ottoman Armenia was thought to be 470 000 (including those who lived in İzmir and İstanbul but excluding the Armenians who escaped to Caucasia). Additionally more than 30 000 Armenians lived in Adana and 40 000 in Aleppo (Der Neue Orient May 1919, p.178)

*The Armenian population in Cilicia (Çukurova) was reported as 218 000 in a document dated July 1920 (US ARCHIVES NARA, Mikrofilm No: T 1192R 2;860J.01/395. Appendix. From Acting High Commissioner Dulles to the Foreign Minister).

*  In a memorandum presented by Bogos Nubar Pasha, chief of the Armenian delegation in Paris Conference which started in December 1918, it was announced that 150 000 Armenians were given financial support and taken to Cilicia from Syria, by the French government (US ARCHIVES NARA T1192. Roll 4.860J.01/431).

*In a report presented to American Congress by Near East Relief (NER) dated December 31, 1921, it was reported that nearly 300 000 Armenians returned to Cilicia and they were protected by France and England. …However the poor Armenians had to escape after the French abandoned the region (US ARCHIVES NARA T1192. Roll 4.860J.01/431 and US ARCHIVES NARA M353 Roll 55. Report of the NER to the Congress for the year ending).

* In a report presented by Aneurin Williams, chief of English-Armenian Committee, to Lord Curzon it was reported that many immigrants who were forced to migrate in 1915 returned to Cilicia from Syria, Palastine and Egypt after the Mondros Armistice (UK  ARCHIVES, FO 608/278).  

* In a report presented by the English Black Sea Forces Intelligence Department to the War Cabinet, it was reported that the Armenian population in Anatolia including İstanbul and Edirne was 773 430 in 1914 and it was 658 900 in 1919, excluding that of Erzurum (UK ARCHIVES, WO 158/933, No:5796,1,s.3).

2) What did happen to the Armenians who did not return their homes?
The majority migrated to Middle East countries, Russia, America, France, South America, Australia, India and Iran and did not return.
 
And many died because of contagious diseases and poverty. According to a NER report 12 000 Armenians died because of typhoid fever and other contagious diseases in Harput, Malatya, Sivas, Diyarbakır only during June 1 1921 to January 31, 1922. Additionally 30 000 immigrants out of 80 000 who came from Ahılkelek died because of cholera in 1918 and 200 000 Armenians died because of typhus outbrake and poverty.

Some others who could not return to their homes lost their lives while fighting against the Turks in the Russian, English and French armies they had joined. According to the records of the Leage of Nations, 200 000 Armenians died while fighting in the forces of their allies. Essentially, Boghos Nubar Pasha had announced that 150 000 Armenian volunteers joined to the Russian forces in the WWI.

3) What did the Armenians who returned their homes do?
These Armenians cooperated with the French and English armies and fought in these armies individually wearing their uniforms. Here are archive evidences:

*Boghos Nubar Pasha: ‘In 1919 and 1920, when the Kemalists attacked to the French soldiers, the Armenians made war for France in Maraş, Haçin, Pozantı and Sis. The French succeeded to take back Antep, by the help of the Armenians. Therefore, the Armenians are an ally of France’ (USARCHIVES NARA T1192. Roll 4.860J.01/431).

*A decision made by The American Committee for the Independence of Armenia which was presented to the Lausanne Conference on January 16, 1923: ‘As the minister Bellet declared, the Armenian legionelles (lejyonerler) joined to France after being promised that autonomy would be introduced to Cilicia and therefore they occupied Cilicia in 1918 (carrying the flag of France) . (US ARCHIVES NARA T1192. Roll 4. 860J.01/562).

*Boghos Nubar Pasha: ‘Since 1918, 40 000 Armenians  lost their lives’ while fighting together with the French (US ARCHIVES NARA, 8605.01/438).

*A list of the Armenians who fought in the French Army and died had been displayed under the title of ‘The Armenians who died for France’. In the list, the cities where these soldiers were born were also stated and nearly all of them were Ottoman Armenians (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Palais/2230/ww2.html)

*’The Armenians informed the Allies that they would establish an army of 150 000 soldiers and attempt to establish an independent Armenia in the east (From Berlin November 6, 1917; vorzulegen z.G.K.:W.L.R.Nadolny. German Archives of the Foreign Ministry, Bd.48,R.14097, No.7169).

*’ Armenians massacred many Turks, in the district of Erzincan and surroundings where the Russian retreated’ (The telegram sent by Kühlmann, German ambassador of İstanbul to German Foreign Ministry. German Archives of the Foreign Ministry, Bd. 47, R.14096, No.7165, No.591).

*The report of Pallavici, İstanbul ambassador of  Austria-Hungary, sent to Ottokor Grafen Czernin on February 9, 1918: ‘’The Armenian guerrillas (bands) who fought nearby the Russian armies in Caucausia, misbehaved the Turkish people and Turks in Platana (district between Erzincan and Trabzon) were mass killed’ (German Archives of the Foreign Ministry, No: 13/P.B, Konstantinopel. Wien).

*A news from Norddeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, dated February 14, 1918: ‘The Armenian bands (guerrillas) have been misbehaving Ottoman people barbarously and brutally in districts where the Russian retreated in Caucasia (German Archives of the Foreign Ministry, Der Weltkrieg R. 20145, Bd.279; Norddeutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, 14-02-1918).

*A news from Germania Gazette, dated February 23, 1920: ‘English Commission Responsible For Armenia requested help of other states (allies) to arm the Armenians, especially the Cilicians and to protect them.

[Zekiye]

Genocide is the greatest crime of humanity and International Court of Justice or domestic courts are the only authorities reserved to prosecute and proclaim genocide according to the 1948 UN Convention. Therefore, accusing a whole nation and its generations as criminals of genocide requires strong historical and legal proofs and supports. Turkish historians, Turkish prime minister and Turkish Assembly several times suggested Armenia to discuss the events which occured in the WWI together with historians from both sides and even historians from other countries. The Armenians have neither applied to international courts nor accepted to discuss these events in joint commissions made up of historians from Armenia, Turkey and other countries. The claim of the Armenians that international scholars support their thesis is thus meaningless. Does one not ask them ‘then why they fiercefully reject to present their very strong evidences supported by thousands of international scholars to historical commissions made up of Armenian, Turkish historians, in addition to historians from other nations’. If they really believe that they are supported by the scholars of the world, then why are they afraid of proving their thesis?

The other reason why the Turks and Turkish governments do not accept the label of genocide is that the Turkish documents and family stories the Turkish people heard from their own grandparents do not comply with an Armenian genocide. The Turkish Archives demostrate that the Armenians inflicted massacres upon Turks/Muslims from the beginning of 1890’s; that when the deportation were under way, the Armenians of the big cities (and Katholic and Protestan Armenians) were exempted; that officials who were found faulty during the deportations were court marshalled in early 1916 (out of 1673 who stood in court, 67 were given death sentences, 524 jail term, 68 row boat and monetary punishments by Talat Pasha government, before we lost the war); that in December 1918, a new law letting the Armenians return their homes and claim their properties was issued and that many of them returned their homes*, that those who returned their homes cooperated with the French and English armies and fought in these armies individually wearing their uniforms during the Turkish Freedom War and that the documents presented by the Armenians to support their views are full of forgeries.

*According to Armenian Church in Istanbul a total of 644,000 people returned back from exhile. Children were returned to their parents.
* In a report presented by Aneurin Williams, chief of English-Armenian Committee, to Lord Curzon it was reported that many immigrants who were forced to migrate in 1915 returned to Cilicia from Syria, Palastine and Egypt after the Mondros Armistice (UK ARCHIVES, FO 608/278).

[mustafa ka]

The documents the Armenians present to prove that genocide occurred consists of many forgeries. For example:

1) The number of Armenians who were relocated:

The number of the Armenians who were relocated was reported as 600-700 thousand by Boğos Nubar Pasha who attended to the talks of Sevres Treaty as a chief of Armenians. However the number of relocated Armenians is given as 1.5 million by some Armenian sources and 2 and even 2.5 million by some others. However, the total number of Ottoman Armenians including those who live in the West Anatolia (therefore who were not relocated) was reported as 1.5 million in Encyclopedia Britannica’s 1910 edition which was edited by an English editor. Surprisingly, the total number of Ottoman Armenians was increased to 2.5 million in 1953 edition of the same encyclopedia which was edited by an Armenian editor .

2) Aram Andonian’s book (The telegrams which were claimed to have been sent by Talat Pasha to order the massacre of the Armenians which were pressed in the book of Aram Andonian in 1920, in three languages): It was proven by both the Turkish and foreign historians that these telegrams were fake too.

After these telegrams were published in Daily Telegraph in England, in 1922, the English Foreign Ministry made a scrutiny and denounced that they were prepared by an Armenian association.

3) Diary of American Ambassador Morgenthau published in 1918. Professor Heath Lowry, an American historian from Princeton University displayed that the events depicted in the book depended on lies or half true events, by comparing the information Ambassador Morgenthau sent to American Foreign Ministry, with those written in the diary, in his book entitled ‘The Story Behind Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story’, in 1990 .

4) The cover photograph of the book of Tessa Hoffmann: Tessa Hoffmann printed the painting of Russian artist Vasili Vereshchagin depicting a mass of skulls which was painted in 1871, as if it were the photograph of 1915 Armenian genocide, in the cover of his book and had to admit his forgery during the trial of Doğu Perinçek held in Switzerland in March 2007, in which he was listened as a wittness.

[Chris]

Dear Suheyla:

The Poll revealed it was 8% (excuse my mistake) and it was conducted by the Istanbul based ARI Movement.

The Genocide Convention was adopted by the General Assembly on 9 December 1948, long after the Genocide and while the Armenian Diaspora (which was mainly formed due to the Genocide) was still in a state of shock and was not settled therefore it like the Ukrainian Famine was not included.

No one has ever said that the Armenians were not fighting with the Turks from 1895 after the first massacres by Sultan Hamid, It is a known fact that some Armenians did begin to fight for their democratic rights, but the fact still remains the events of 1915 were an act of GENOCIDE.

And as of today the "institute for the study of genocide" aka ISG has concluded what happened to the Armenians was a Genocide so if you want to get the opinion of the GENOCIDE scholars, it was a Genocide.

[Bobby]

A message to all these Turkish history scholars.

Rhetoric doesn't equal to truth. There is enough evidence to support the case for Genocide. This event has been acknowledged as Genocide by many major nations, the US will come to terms when Turkey is no longer a strategic ally.

Here's something to think about. There were 2 Million Armenians living in what is today Eastern Turkey, how many are there now? And how many Christian Churches have been converted to Mosques? Like the Aya Sophia in Constantinople/Istanbul Thanks

[Bobby]

Dear Saheyla

Using your logic you can safely say there is no Moon, after all you haven’t traveled there or at least can’t touch it, it must be some illusion in the sky. Using your logic history books should be rewritten because we weren’t there and we can’t prove it.

Your denial has more holes than the cheese on the moon. Give it up, don’t let disbelief lead to denial.

[Akasya]

The Armenians are sure that Armenian genocide really occured and claim that Turkey does not want to face with her history and so she does not scrap article 301 which restricts freedom of speech. However, Turkish articles obviously do not have any power of sanction on Armenians. So, what is the reason of Armenians’ insistent refusal of Turkey’s suggestions to discuss these events together with historians from both sides? For example:

*In 2004, the Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform (VAT) was founded to exchange documents about the 1915 events by Austrian, Turkish and Armenian historians. After receiving 100 Turkish documents, the Armenians refused to send their documents which they promised, to the Turkish historians and afterwards the Armenian foreign minister announced that they did not want to discuss the 1915 events with historians.

*Armenia refused the Turkish prime minister's and the Turkish Assembly's invitation announced on 13th April 2005 which suggested to establish a Joint Commission composed of historians from both sides and discuss the events which took place during the 1st World War.

*At last, Turkey sent full page ads to five popular newspapers of the United States (US) calling on Armenia to ‘bring light the events of 1915 together with Turkey and to establish a joint commission composed of historians from both sides in addition to historians from other nations’, in April 2007.

*Why did the Armenian historian Sarafyan, who accepted the recent invitation of the chief of Turkish History Foundation, Halaçoğlu, for cooperation to investigate Harput events, abandon the project, after talking the Armenian diaspora?

*Why are the Armenian archives still closed? The archives of Taşnak (Dashnak) Party is present in Zoryan Armenian Institute in Boston. Both Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation offered the Armenians to open these archives; but the directors of the Zoryan Institute replied that they did not have enough money to open the archives. Turkish government and Turkish History Foundation promised financial support.Why did the Armenians refuse this suggestion too? (Nüzhet Kandemir, http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/418517.asp). Note that Zoryan Institute has quite enough money to provide financial support for Taner Akçam who advocates the Armenian claims in Minnesota University.

If a genocide had really occured, why did Brian Ardouny of the Armenian Assembly of America announce ‘We don’t need to prove the genocide historically, because it has already been accepted politically’? Why did the chief of the Armenian Archives in Armenia tell that they were not interested in the achives, but all they are interested is the world’s public opinion.

In your life, have you ever seen a criminal who persistently calls the victim to bring his evidences? And, have you ever seen a victim who passionately accuses somebody of committing crime and giving him great harm but strictly avoids of bringing his proofs before the referees or going to court, and tells that he need not prove that this person’s guilt, because the community has already accepted this person as guilty?

In this situation would you not ask the question of which era you are living in? 5000 BC or 7000 BC?

And what else should Turkey do, to FACE WITH HER HISTORY? Who is afraid of facing with her history? Turkey or Armenia and those who support them?

[aylin ata]

Let us reevaluate Armenia’s persistence on the word ‘genocide’ from a different perspective:

Armenia’s attitude towards Turkey’s land integrity: Article 11 of the Armenian Declaration of Independence of August 23, 1990; refers to Eastern Anatolia of Turkey as Western Armenia and as such beholds that this area is part of Armenia. Since the Armenian constitution recognizes as a basis “the fundamental principles of the Armenian statehood and national aspirations engraved in the Declaration of Independence of Armenia”, it likewise accepts the characterization of Eastern Anatolia as Western Armenia and this, albeit indirectly, translates into the advancement of territorial claims. The Armenian politicians and school books call Eastern Anatolia of Turkey, ‘invaded mother land of Armenia’ and in Armenia the school children are being grown up being conditioned to be patriots to rescue their invaded land. Even the marches they sing are about this condition. The Armenians who write in such blogs that the Eastern Anatolia cities do not belong to Turkey, as if the present Eastern boundaries of Turkey was not determined by treaties of Gumru (1920), Moscow (1921) and the whole boundaries by Lausanne (1923) Treaties; after the Turkish Freedom War.

Additionally Armenia refused Turkey’s recurrent offers to commit an agreement declaring that each country recognizes the other country’s land integrity, in 1992 and later.

Why do the Armenians force Turkey to accept a genocide? The answer is hidden in a speech of the chief of Dashnak Party Hrant Markaryan who told that their efforts for the recognition of Armenian (so-called) genocide was not an isolated purpose but it was a part of the struggle for rescue of the West Armenia (Armenian Forum Vol2 No 4; Armenian Weekly On-line, 18 June, 4 July 2003). The Armenian then prime minister Andranik Markaryan told that the internationally recognition of (so called) Armenian genocide and demanding land from Ankara as 'compensation' was possible only after Armenia had strengthened and the Armenians should not have told that they demanded land from Ankara loudly and everywhere (Arminfo 26 May 2004). On one occasion President Kocharian stated that since today’s Armenia does not have the clout to advance such demands, doing so should be left to future generations at a time when conditions would hopefully be better suited to this end'.

The world should not forget that Germany's claim on Zudetland and Gdansk just because they were its historical lands caused burst of World War II! History is full of wars which broke up because of claims of states on their historical lands. If an item like the aforementioned Armenian item were present in the lawbook of Mexico claiming that Texas, Arizonna, New Mexico and California which were historical lands of Mexico, belonged to Mexico but invaded, would the American tolerate it?

Therefore the world should not overlook Armenia’s aggressivity, which is hidden behind their role of victim and should think about the price of their support to the Armenians very well.

[Truthteller]

Armenian propagandists know no shame, do they?

There can be no recognition because there was no genocide. Instead of focusing on what happened to the Armenians who betrayed their country, perhaps we should spend a little time and attention to the crimes committed by Armenians, fueled by ethnic and religious hatred and bigotry.

The Ottoman government did not intend to kill Armenians, whereas the Armenians most certainly did attempt to kill as many Turkish Muslims as possible, so they could create a bigger Armenia. From coast to coast.

So they plundered villages, killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Muslim Turks, raped Muslim Turkish women, if women were pregnant, Armenian militias cut open their bellies and cut out the baby, after which they left the woman to die. They collaborated with the Russian government, and tried to ethnically cleanse the lands.

Sadly for them the Ottomans were stronger than they had anticipated, and the Ottomans understood that if they didn't do something, their people would be wiped out by Armenians - who later went on to kill Jews and during World War II were ardent supporters of the Nazis - so they decided to relocate them. Not murder them, but relocate them.

Because it was a time of war, however, many people died during the trip - because of sicknesses, diseases and hunger and thirst. Many Armenians died, but they died regardless of what the Ottomans did; Ottoman archives prove that the leaders ordered their troops to take good care of the relocated Armenians... but because it was a time of war, and because Turks were dying on a massive scale due to aforementioned problems, they quite simply could not take as good care of the Armenians as they wanted to.

So they suffered, yes, and many died. But on purpose? No. Not on purpose.

Is what happened, then, genocide? Of course it's not.

The Armenians, on the other hand, did commit ethnic cleansing. Perhaps it's time for them to spend some attention to their own crimes.

[Suheyla]

Dear Chris,

The United Nations Convention on Genocide dropped warring parties from the list of groups to be protected against genocide upon Raphael Lemkin’s recommendation. Armenians were definitely at war with the Turks from 1876-1923. While Russia, France and England were trying to carve out a piece of Turkish land form 1914-1918, Armenians en masse joined this Great War against the decaying Ottoman Empire on the side of these invaders.

The first prime minister of the short lived Armenian Republic (1918-1920) Hovhannes Katchaznouni in his 1923 Dashnaq manifesto as the party’s long term leader announced in conclusion; “Armenians massacred Muslim population, they were unconditionally allied with Russia, Turks’ decision of deporting Armenians was a rightful measure and Turks acted in self defense”. Incidentally, this book is forbidden to enter the Armenian Republic. Even academician Yekta Gungor with genocide persuasion was jailed for taking a book out of the Republic of Armenia. They must have their unwritten Law#301 that no organization dares to hold a conference in Armenia to examine two sides of the said argument.

Boghos Nubar, the head of Armenian delegation at peace talks wrote in his letter (published at the Times of London in 1919) that 150,000 armed Armenian volunteers fought in the Eastern front against Turks. Also, Ottoman parliamentarian from 1908 -1912 Garegin Pastermadjian who later became Armenian war hero with the assumed name of Armen Garo wrote in his 1923 book published in Boston, how the Armenian volunteer armies of 160,000 were formed and how they caused the Sarikamish defeat with 90,000 casualties to the Turkish Army under command of Enver Pasha. He also boasts about numerous other armed fights against the Turkish Army. Today, the younger generations of Armenians write as if Turks should have lied dead when attacked by their ancestors. In effect they are claiming non-Christians do not deserve self protection.

Again Dear Chris,

Please do tell me out of how many people living in which district of Istanbul, 10% of the Turkish citizens accepted the said events as geno-?

You are still trying to conceal the truth by streaching the truth beyons recognition. Why would anyone do that if the true facts were on their side?

[Suheyla]

Dear Istepanian,

Racial hatred which is the main ingredient of genocide was amply displayed among Armenians in 1915 and they still are full of hatred for anything Turkish. Whereas in other genocide trials only the guilty individuals were condemned, Armenians for a century have continued to carry out hate campaign against anything Turkish, proving they are dangerously racist. Also, being of Arian descent Armenian volunteers participated in World War II wearing SS uniforms. See photo taken by a German war correspondent named Strohmeyer, dated 5 August 1944 showing Armenian volunteers in Nazi Wehrmacht swearing loyalty to Fuhrer in front of a huge Nazi flag.

[Suheyla]

Dear Bobby,

Raphael Lemkin was a 10 year old child in 1915. He has never been near Eastern Anatolia so he made no first hand observations. Any opinion he may have had about Armenian suffering must be based on one sided sob stories. Also, Ambassador Morgenthau never left Istanbul to observe the situation on the Russian border to form a first hand opinion. Stories publicized from his office were obtained through his Armenian translators when not written by them.

[Suheyla]

Dear Skeptik Sinikian,

Your attempt to portray the 1915 events like a rapist and victim event between Turks and Armenians has no logical basis. Turks and Armenians were both victims. Aggressors were the Russians, French and the British who attacked to carve out land from the Ottoman Empire. Ottoman citizens of different ethnic background like Armenians and Greeks were used as peons to weaken the central power. Turks rightfully defended their land against invaders and insurgents alike.

Hitler’s quotation is also one of the proven forgeries like the heap of skulls and telegraphs containing secret killing orders attributed to Talat Pasha.

As for the other forgeries:

Three different minutes of the August 22 1939 meeting were submitted to Nuremberg Court of War Criminals. One of these minutes was not used as evidence by the prosecutor owing to the fact that it had been falsified. The statement attributed to Hitler appeared as hand written addition in this allegedly falsified note. In spite of all this, on November 24 1945 - Saturday, an article appeared in the London Times that the prosecutor had submitted to the court, evidence containing the infamous words. To this day, no one knows who the Times reporter was or the person who left the crumbled up note containing the falsified quotation on the prosecutor’s desk. However, the Armenians continue to use it as ‘fact’ 50 years after it has been proven to be false.

The other forgery is the heap of skulls which was painted in 1871 by Russian Artist Vassily Vereschagin. This oil painting is used by Armenians as if it was the photo of skulls killed by Turks (see, Tessa Hoffman’s book cover).

Another famous forgery was spread by Naim Andonian. He published what he claimed to be secret orders issued by Talat Pasha to kill Armenians. It turned out the ‘documents’ he presented were the kind used in French classrooms and not the Ottoman government. Also, the dates were wrong, document numbers out of sequence, and the claimed officials were not assigned to the said posts at the time these documents were sent and received.

Could someone please answer, if anyone who believes justice is on his side would fabricate forgeries?

[Harry Istepanian]

Turkey is realising that time will not make nations to forget their bloody history. More and more nations are facing the moral obligation to recognise the Armenian Genocide. The Turks can run but cannot hide from the truth. The tactic of continuous denial does not help to build a sound reputation among other nations, simply because every country in the world hosted an Armenian orphan. How many official document, books, photographs, eye witness do you need to prove one event?

[Bobby]

Someone should remind the Knesset of Raphael Lemkin. He was a Polish Jew who survived the holocaust, but more notably he was the creator of the word "genocide".

Here a quote from him in 1943 speaking to the UN.
“I became interested in genocide because it happened to the ARMENIANS; and after[wards] the ARMENIANS got a very rough deal at the Versailles Conference because their criminals were guilty of genocide and were not punished."

1939, 10 days before invading Poland, Hitler raises moral in troops by saying "Who does now remember the Armenians?"

Seems to me that if we recognize and reconcile, perpetrators would think harder before committing genocidal policies.

[Chris]

There cannot be denial of something that is not established. The Armenian allegations are just allegations. What they presented as 'facts' turned out to be forgeries. They must be sure that there is no real evidence in order to fabricate lies. I think the allegation of genocide in 1915 is under dispute. Historians are needed to examine all aspects of the said years, not just those convenient to Armenian propagandists.
-Suheyla

1) The International Genocide Scholars concluded that it was a Genocide

2) What facts turned out to be forgeries, please post, and no "facts" from Justin Mccarty who is paid through the government of turkey with grants is not a reliable source.

3) Even Turks and Armenians have discussed this issue with the creation of TARC- Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Committee, and you know what they found out, it was GENOCIDE.

Time and Time again, Turks are still trying to discuss this issue when it has already been discussed and found to be the first case of GENOCIDE in the 20th century.

The only people who are disputing the genocide are turks (Actually in a recent poll over 10% of Turks said it was GENOCIDE) and people with interest in Turkey.

P. Connolly You are correct it has not ended and will not end until the Government of Turkey STOPS the denial, No one ever disputed Turks or Kurds died, even at the hands of Armenians fighting for Democracy (not religion, go and study the subject before you post), but it comes down to the events of 1915 which was a GENOCIDE.

Shame on the LA times for not following its own policy.

[Orin]

It is indeed time to call it for what is was - A campaign by Armenian terrorist gangs to murder and ethnically cleanse Turks from east Anatolia to form a ethnic armenian homeland with the help of the russian army. Of course, the armenian terrorists were unsuccessful in their brutal quest, so they have to paint themselves victims of an imaginary "genocide" and indoctrinate their children to hate Turks forever. The blood of the murdered Azerbaijani women and children murdered at the hands of armenan terrorists at Khojaly cries for justice .

[Ed Wartk]

The whole point of this article is to stir controversy and outrage so they(LA Times) can cash on it. What is the point to publish truth that will not bring you money.LA Times knows that no sane person familiar with the subject will dispute historical facts. And they are not insane either. Ignore and boycott is the wright response. Do anything that hurt their revenue.

[Erkin Baker]

Somehow the Armenians are reluctant to state all of their demand from the Turks: Recognition, compensation in billions of dollars, and some land that is part of the Republic of Turkey, which did not exist till 1923.

For Israel to even think of accepting the Armenians' claims is a disservice to the memory of the six million Jews who died in a real genocide.

The Jews did not have an arny in Germany. Whereas, the Armenians had an armed militia of over 100,000 men who fought alongside the occupiers against their state.

The Jews in Germany did not rebel against their country, and did not kill other German citizens;

The Jews did not demand a piece of land to be carved out of Germany. By contrast, the Armenians wanted land from the Ottoman Empire.

Furthermore, the fact that Nazi Germany committed genocide upon their Jewish population was proven by the Nuremberg Tribunals. No such tribunal has proven that Turks committed genocide on their Armenian citizens. The United Nations has declared that the UN has never recognized that a genocide of the Armenians at the hands of the Turks occurred.

If the Armenians would like to prove their case, then, they should take their case to the International court of Justice in the Hague.

Erkin Baker
USA

[Ashot Manukian]

Armenians say that Genocide occured? Wow. LA Times publishers must either be blind or they are pressured by Turkish Nationalists sympothizers who are part of LA Times hierarchy on downplaying the historical event.

[thetruth]

Helping turkey deny it's crime purely for monetary gain?? I wouldn't expect anything less from Isreal..

Again, lets be real clear about this: It is not just the "Armenians" that say it was a systematic genocide as the LA times writes. It is the 126 membesr of the International Association of Genocide Scholars who say it was Genocide. It is 23 countries including Germany, turkey's own ally, that witnessed the mass Armenian murders that says it was genocide. It is ONLY the Turks and a hand full of "paid suedo" historians that disagree. THAT IS ALL!.......... The other deception is by turks taking on western names to further deceit people as if westerners have the same opinion as they do..(P. Connly)...........Turkey like any criminal state needs to pay for it's crimes. And yes Armenian Genocide Denial is akin to Holocaust denial and should be treated as such.

LA Times should adhere to it's own policy and not water down the facts of the Armenian Genocide. The denial days are ending.

[Skeptik Sinikian]

The argument that Armenians and Turks should figure this out on their own is as ridiculous as telling a rape victim to "sort things out" with the rapist.

Politics will always trample upon human dignity and compassion as long as opportunists and radical nationalists control political dialogue in any country (Israel, Turkey, U.S.)

People of good faith from all religions (Christian, Muslim, Jew) should cut through the political bull shit and allow the Armenians to properly mourn their lost loved ones instead of playing with political euphemisms in order to appease the malignant and belligerent Republic of Turkey.

Otherwise Hitler's quote on the eve of the invasion of Poland to his generals ("Who after all speaks of the Armenians today?") will resonate though history and the next victim will be the Kurds of Turkey.

[H]

And to think that policies were to be followed. The LA Times had previously sent a memento to its staff to name the genocide by its name. Not only this article falls short of that, it goes well beyond it by reminding for each sentence a turkish denialist response. Shame on you!

As for the Israeli attitude, it would have been much more humane from the Shoah survivors to be able to support the victims of those whom years later would help to shape the Nazi ideology (reference to the young turks and their relationship with the Nazis).

[Charlie]

Israel's denial of the Armenian Genocide creates a dilemma when it comes time to decry denial of the Jewish Genocide.

The LA times couches discussion of the Armenian Genocide in terms implying that the event is disputed by reputable historians.

It would be better that the LA Times just flat out deny it.

Their specious use of the phrase "Armenians say 1.5 million people..." is intended to imply that only Armenians believe this to be true. The Times is far worse than any Turkish newspaper's outright denial, which, even to the uninformed, seems false.

[Suheyla]

I see Armenians are attacking the LA Times for not swallowing their claims hook line and sinker. They have subdued the Turks with similar vicious attacks. They bombed historians who discovered the Turks were justified in defending their land. They killed Turkish ambassadors worldvide. Those people's only guilt was being Turkish. Armenians do not notice how racist and hate filled they have become. Of course LA Times should not yield into their bullying. In fact, more unbiased papers need to come out in order to uncover the truth. Justice need be served to reach stable peace. Instead we see Armenians getting irate whenever Turks request investigation of truth.

[G]

"The Armenian issue is very sensitive for Turkey."
When are people going to start talking about the sensitivities of Turkey's denial to the "victims" of this genocide. Do they not realize how offensive it is to endure this denial for so long?

"We would prefer if this discussion didn't take place at this time ... because it may harm relations between the two countries."
This might prompt Iran to encourage overt denial of the Holocaust in its international relations. If you discuss or recognize the Holocaust (in the near future), it may harm relations between Iran and the country in question.

"A senior aide to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert replied that Israel believes the issue needs to be settled between the two sides with the involvement of historians, and has no interest in undermining its important strategic relations with Turkey."
Using genocide to gain in strategic "interests"? Why is Israel pushing U.S. to go to war with Iran because Iran believes that the Holocaust should be settled by historians, and in fact established a conference just recently regarding the events? Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house. Israel, you have no moral authority to criticize anything Iran says regarding the Holocaust.

"Aside from "not denying the occurrence of the terrible events" and expressing understanding of the deep sensitivity, Israel has long avoided a clear public position."

This is the lie of the century. To say that Israel has "not denied" and has "avoided a clear public position" is ludicrous. Who are you trying to fool?

Shimon Peres: "We reject attempts to create a similarity between the Holocaust and the Armenian allegations. Nothing similar to the Holocaust occurred. It is a tragedy what the Armenians went through but not a genocide." This after he called claims of an Armenian Genocide are "meaningless." This is "avoiding a clear public position"?

[Arin]

P. Connolly,

Your conception of history is incorrect. Stick to your PoliGazette if warped history is what you wish to espouse.

[Suheyla]

There cannot be denial of something that is not established. The Armenian allegations are just allegations. What they presented as 'facts' turned out to be forgeries. They must be sure that there is no real evidence in order to fabricate lies. I think the allegation of genocide in 1915 is under dispute. Historians are needed to examine all aspects of the said years, not just those convenient to Armenian propagandists.

[Leo]

I can't believe in the 21 century there are still people that don't believe there was a genocide because of economic reason or it should be debated. LA times why not write an Article about the Jewish holocaust and say it should be debatable and everyone will call you guys Nazis.

[P. Connolly]

The campaign to label the Tragic Events of 1915 a "genocide" is motivated by Ethnic and religious hatred coming from Diaspora Armenians -most of whom are Christian- and aimed at the Turks - a Moslem people. World War 1 has never ended for some individuals of the Armenian Diaspora; all the hatreds of that time have been kept alive among their descendants to the present day. They come to our shores stirring intrigue in our political institutions and insisting that anyone who doesn't go along with their plan to take back the land that was conquered 1000 years ago is a "genocide denier" or a "Daniel Irving". Genocide will never be eliminated by people who tell such a hate-filled one-sided story that shows no regard whatsoever for the thousands of Moslem Turks and Kurds who died at the hands of Armenians.

[Garen]

Recently major American Jewish organizations, including the ADL, taking their cue from the Israeli government, have crossed the red-line that distinguishes political lobbying from mercenary activity being carried on behalf of a foreign government.

In October of 2007, Malcolm Hoenlein, executive vice chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, himself assured Turkish leaders that the major US Jewish organizations were by-and-large supportive of Turkey's genocide denial campaign in the US. If this is what's left of the legacy of the Holocaust, I pity the memory of its victims.

Thank God there are those in Israel, like Israel Charny, Yair Auron or Mr. Rivlin who are not ready to trade another people's right to its hisotry for mere political gains. Or individuals in the Jewish diaspora such as Bernard-Henri Levy or Andrew Tarsy who have had the guts to expose this cynical policy of complicity in genocide denial.

[GS]

Boycott LA Times. I cannot believe that they are, yet again, going against their own policy. Stop this propagation of denial once and for all.

Shimon Peres, Abraham Foxman and the rest of the shameless gang have created a society of "screamers" (as Samantha Power puts it in the movie SCREAMERS). We will not be silenced any longer; we will be screaming at the top of our lungs at every opportunity we get at the injustices you have committed against humanity for denying this "Crime Against Humanity" (a term first used in the legal sense with respect to the Armenian Genocide) for over 90 years. Shame on you! LA Times is shameless by giving a forum to such "intellectual" denial.

Think of it:

"Jews say that 6 million of their kin were murdered at the hands of Germans in a genocide during WWII. Some Germans maintain that the numbers are hotly inflated, and that a similar number of Germans died during the war."

[Paul]

It's time Israel reconsider where its ties with Turkey needs to stand in the moral-strategic spectrum and end the word games and foolishness. Armenia appreciates those within Israel who are engineering that change, it's only a matter of time.

[Vahagn]

This is unbelievable.....once again the LA Times tries to paint the picture as if it is still debatable whether there was genocide or not....they don't even use the terminology, they used the word "massacre". Shame on you guys, no wonder more and more people are choodsing not to read this disingenious BS.

[Moris]

This is high time for Israel to stop supporting Turkish denial policy!

read more on denail:

http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/30795.html

[Arin]

I don't understand the disingenuous wording coming out of the LATimes as it relates to the genocide. It's not that Armenians say this and that happened in 1915 and Turks say that and this happened, both sides somehow being on equal footing in a protracted debate about the facts, but rather, all self-respecting historians and observers agree that what occurred was race murder, i.e. genocide.

What's wrong with the Times?